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Hi!I'm musician from Ukraine and I have read a list of compositions of Kosenko that you made. Thank you for this really greate job:) I saw, that there was a section about songs that needs translations of their titles. All translations seems good. There was only one misunderstanding with words «ударники». It really means «percussionists», but also that word was very common during the time of Soviet union in Ukraine, and has a meaning like «very effective worker» or something like that.But the rest of the translations is ok.
We haven't had the chance to work together yet Dr. Blofeld, but I am sure this will come to happen someday. I am right in the middle of recordings here, and I haven't had much time to spend with my wife and baby due to the amount of work I have ahead of me. Please, tell Rosie that I am in debt with her, something that I intend to rescue as soon as I can. I still don't know when this is going to happen, but as I say, once a Wikipedian, always a Wikipedian. Your admirer, KrenakaroreTK11:36, 17 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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I'm Italian, and in Italian the surname "D'Ambrosio" is generally spelled with an uppercase D. The same happens with similar surnames such as Di Bari or Di Venanzo. About references, see the books Storia del violino, dei violinisti e della musica per violino by Arnaldo Bonaventura, The Guadagnini Family of Violin Makers by Ernest N. Doring, Paganini: The 'demonic' Virtuoso by Mai Kawabata, Contributi storici e letterari by Vincenzo Napolillo, I Signori di Napoli by Sara Prossomariti. I can provide more sources if necessary. My best! Cavarrone00:26, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No need. We'd better correct the spelling in other pages to avoid redirects too. I'm copying this note you left here to Talk:D'Ambrosio so that others understand what happened here today and prevent them from moving the page back in the future. Thanks, KrenakaroreTK00:36, 18 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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Thank you, I will go after her. I have found two persons since I began peering into Kosenko's compositions. They have helped me greatly, but what I began still remains in my sandbox. Yes, I will complete the work as soon as I find somebody who might check Kosenko's museum in Kiev or any other a little more interested in explaining to me the meaning behind his compositions. Thank you very much indeed. KrenakaroreTK14:30, 26 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done ! Politics, specially Brazilian, is something very hard for me to digest my dear. I am an artist for I was born with wings ! KrenakaroreTK21:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ha ha ha ha ha ha... Dr. Blofeld, if I saw you on the streets I'd most certainly say: Donald Pleasence, what you're doing here my friend (I really love the guy) ? I was reading your "likes and dislikes" on your User page today. Yes, films are very interesting, specially about obscure places hidden in a corner of the world (that makes me a bit more excited once I like tourism). Sometimes, I think that maybe I should reveal that music turns me on or pay him a visit and leave a message to a classical composer like Moszkowski (I collect his recordings, although I'm a bit busy with finding some information on Viktor Kosenko's compositions. Actually, I have just grabbed my hands on his manuscripts stored in the Vernadsky National Library's Manuscript Department in Kiev, which gives me the chance to produce something that has never been done before) ! But then again I remember that I'm about to take the plane back to Rio this coming August, this time with my wife and daughter, for a two-year retirement from Prague. Yes, I can do that, but why two little stubs ? KrenakaroreTK21:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I was, but something happened. I've got somebody very close to me in the hospital. I can't put my mind on this now, sorry Dr. KrenakaroreTK20:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Therezinha Zerbini has been nominated for Did You Know
It was mentioned in passing in Michael Dummett's Game of Tarot. The Stewart Culin collection contains a late 19th century pack which can be seen here and here. The high card of each suit is marked by a red stamp which is why the two high cards of the suit of tens is known to have been dropped before that time. You should also check out Gernot Prunner's Ostasiatische Spielkarten which contains a large catalogue of Chinese cards. --Countakeshi (talk) 07:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I know. I am a card game researcher, and what you've been doing here on card games in general was done by me, and previously by Hans Adler and User:2005. Nonetheless, you have an advantage once you're deeply involved with eastern cultures, so it seems. I have never read Tarot Games, but I've been trying to find it to buy. Thanks for providing the links, specially the mentioning of Gernot Prunner's Ostasiatische Spielkarten.
You said there: "At the end of each round, various bonuses can be achieved by producing melds from captured cards." This gave rise to another, named... ? Let me show you this conversation: January 2010 to August 2011. Anything you wish to comment, please ! KrenakaroreTK06:54, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see that you are researching information about the origins of Khanhoo and Mahjong? Andrew Lo wrote about Kanhu (看虎, Watching Tigers) also known as Douhu (斗虎, Competing with Tigers) in an article in The Playing-Card XXXI No. 5 p.221-229. An article by John Berry right after it compares and contrasts the Ming game to the Qing game. Lo translated a manual by Pan Zhiheng, the only surviving manual of that game. It coexisted with Madiao during the late Ming dynasty. Unlike Madiao in which tricks are played with one card each, Kanhu was a multi-trick game where combinations of cards are thrown and can only be beaten by higher combinations (see Tien Gow and Luk Fu). Hu (tiger) is one of the higher combinations and beats lower combinations called leopards. Neither Kanhu nor Madiao is related to the Yezi (Leaves) game of the Tang era. That game was a board game played with dice, the rules of which were lost during the Song dynasty. "Leaves" game was then reused during the Ming-Qing era to refer to card games which is why confusion arose about the Tang board game.--Countakeshi (talk) 11:14, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I research about the origins of Kanhoo (kanhu), whch was the very reason that brought me to Wikipedia.
Vol. 31 (2002-2003)
No. 5 Playing the Game: More Whist and comments on Tuppi Chinese Money Suited Cards
L.P. Holmblad - Danish playing-Card Maker: The Tarok Packs Pan Zhiheng's 'Xu Yezi Pu' Part 1
Tuppi: Lapland's National Game
No. 6 Playing the Game: Card Games in Iran
A Pack for the Prague 1908 Jubilee Exhibition Pan Zhiheng's 'Xu Yezi Pu' (Sequel to a Manual of Leaves) Part 2
Playing-cards of the Cuming Museum
By Kanhu, also known as Douhu (Dohu), you mean: Chinese Money Suited Cards by Andrew Lo, are you sure ? Another question is 看虎 Watching Tigers or 看虎 Watching the Pot ? So, by melding cards from captured cards gave rise to Dohu ? This is the very moment in time I have been researching for. For me, this moment is like standing in front of a door, which is closed, but I want to go through. I need to understand when the matching card game known today as Khanhoo was devised and put into practice. I wish to know the name of this game, how it was played, and compare them both. It would be very nice of you to lay your hands on the article Khanhoo (and believe me, you're the first user I ask this favor). I need more historical information. Do you play Khanhoo ? KrenakaroreTK22:42, 14 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Xu Yezi Pu" (Part 1) is about the Ming version of Kanhu and is written by Lo. The article right after it is "Chinese Money-Suited Cards" by John Berry and it discusses links between the Ming game and its Qing successor. I will try to rewrite the Khanhoo article but I will have to gather more sources and compile them together. Here are some other interesting sources: the game of cuajo/kuwaho and 18th-century Chinese melding terminology. I'll also have to read "Asian Games: The Art of Contest" which also mentions Chinese card games. I believe "hu" originally meant tiger but was corrupted to mean lake or pot during the Qing dynasty. My theory is that the earliest card games were trick-taking games like Madiao, then they became multi-trick games like the Ming-era Kanhu, and finally became melding games like Qing-era Kanhu and Mahjong. I don't play Khanhoo.--Countakeshi (talk) 02:29, 15 July 2015 (UTC)--Countakeshi (talk) 02:26, 15 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's not to rewrite it once the bulk of the article deals with game playing, but to add more historical content and describe the evolution of the game. What you have just said "about the Ming version of Kanhu" and "links between the Ming game and its Qing successor" might sum it up and that interests me greatly. How to play the game is there in two versions, Wilkinson's and that described by Culin. People around here added to the article and I would like to keep their contributions as well.
Your theory is correct, there was trick-taking games like Madiao (which evolved and gave rise to Khanhoo as we know it today), and multi-trick games like Tien Gow. The important here is not to confuse the readers and keep the article focused on the matching game itself (the article is about Wilkinson's version, that's why the western title Khanhoo) with all those sets of combinations.
Cuajo, yes I know. Before me coming to Wikipedia there was nothing on the net about Khanhoo, just an entry from Sid Sackson's Card Games Around the World. I still want to have it translated into French, Spanish, German and Italian to propel the information. I have been playing the game for 17 years and never exhaust discussing procedures, discards, memorization and strategy. I also collect sets produced by De La Rue. KrenakaroreTK22:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I have no better word to thank you than the word "thank you" itself. It is amazing how the article has now got greater depth with your timely intervention. Although I would like to keep a few things there for reference purposes, I have no time now to make the changes once I am in South America. Nonetheless, I can't go without saying I am greatful to you for everything and also that I am copying this conversation to my talk page for archival purposes, with your consent of course ! Oh by the way, I still look up to a colorful picture to replace the black-and-white one you put there to illustrate the article Khanhoo. A million thank you again for elucidating a few things about the game, nomenclature, and related content of course, once I have this game in great account. What it is and means today is a lot more clear in my head thanks to you. KrenakaroreTK01:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. I don't mind if you save this. Regarding the picture, you would be unlikely to find any coloured cards dating before the 20th century. Money-suited cards are monochromatic except for honour cards which are marked with red stamps. There are a few things I left out of the article. Pan Zhiheng is the only known source for the old rules which he wrote down in 1613. He learned the game in 1609 and witnessed the creation of the Pangolin combo. He says a certain Li Baowen invented this meld during one winter's night in Nanjing in a room by the Qinhuai River. You may have noticed that the highest special combo in the Ming game, the Hero, did not survive into the Qing game. It is also the only special combo without a card from the Cash suit. Pan's allegorical explanation is that the Hero is one who has abandoned greed to lift the morale of his army. Culin and Wilkinson disagreed regarding one of the melds in the Qing version. Wilkinson's account matches the "Wealth" combo in the Ming version and is more logical but he never published this discovery. Agreeing with Wilkinson is Tcheng Ki-tong (1890), which may be a pseudonym of Frenchman Adalbert-Henri Foucault de Mondion. By comparing the two versions, the Qing special meld of 1, 2, and 3 Cash isn't really a special at all and is just a "boy". --Countakeshi (talk) 15:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Krenakarore, I've decided to be WP:BOLD and copied your list of Kosenko's works to the main space. Thank you for the enormous work you did! I'll be using this as a great example to educate our "academics" who spend their careers on things far less important than such a basic but crucial work as compiling lists of works of composers.
The reason I decided to do this is that I've finally got a reply from the director of Kosenko museum where she said that even they don't have a complete list of his works nor do they have all of his manuscripts. She said that the only way to continue the research would be to go to Vernadsky National Library of Ukraine, where some manuscripts may be. However, this task is not something I can do in near future (I don't live in Kyiv). I know a musician who works in the Library researching Ukrainian baroque music though and I'll try to reach for his help with this. However, I think at this point, although incomplete, your list is the most complete list of Kosenko's works in existence and should be in the main space.
Yury Bulka, this was an unusual and bold step, but it's not really the proper way to go. There are two problems. First of all, you didn't ask the editor's permission; that's not really OK. Second, you copied the text into the mainspace, and that removes the history. In this case, that also removes the evidence of the extraordinary amount of work this editor put into it. So I took the bold and unusual step of deleting the article, and I note that only a few more edits were made, so there wasn't much history to delete. Rosiestep, this was an unusual case, but I don't really see the advantage of cutting and pasting and whatnot. We can do that, of course, but ONLY if Krenakarore is OK with what the article looked like in mainspace. Krenakarore, it's up to you: keep it in your sandbox (but Юрій Булка has a point: you're hiding your candle under a bushel), move it to mainspace yourself via a simple MOVE, in which case the history is all yours, or have me do the work of restoring the article again in mainspace with your entire history in it and a few edits by Юрій Булка. Drmies (talk) 02:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. This list is not only incomplete, but needs a lot more work and effort put to it. Also, it presents some inconsistencies and other issues yet to be addressed. And yes, the importance of the article in question does go beyond Wikipedia. Mr. Shcherbakov, President of Ukrainian Composers Union and correspondent-member of the Ukrainian Academy of Arts will assist me from now on. Too many people involved in all this work, beyond boundaries. Thank you for your understanding, patience and assistance. I will move the article to mainspace as soon as it is ready. KrenakaroreTK23:24, 7 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Drmies:, I just want to make clear that I didn't at all intend to claim Krenakarore's work (I'm sorry it may have appeared so). When I copied the list in the edit summary I explicitly thanked Krenakarore for his priceless contribution and gave a link to the original sandbox. I couldn't just rename the page because he's already working on another article there. How else can I fulfill the attribution requirement of the license? Also, since it's already cc by-sa on the sandbox, I already have a permission to make a copy provided that I fulfill the requirements of the license. Also, I'd like to know which rule exactly I broke (and how I could have done it properly instead) and by which criteria the article was removed. Thanks, Yury. --Yury Bulka (talk)
I strongly suggest that we should try to resolve this problem by encouraging Krenakarore to put the list under development on the mainspace. I fully understand Юрій Булка's concern to post the list of compositions in connection with the article but also appreciate the problem of attribution. To sort things out, would it not be possible to give users the benefit of three years of hard work by moving the file at User:Krenakarore/sandbox into the mainspace, possibly with an explanation that the list is still under development?--Ipigott (talk) 20:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I just want to add that this list if already of extreme value despite being incomplete. There's no such detailed list available anywhere else, and I think it's just a pity to have such a useful resource buried somewhere in the history of a user namespace subpage. --Yury Bulka (talk) 21:01, 8 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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