User talk:Countakeshi

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Curious

Hi Countakeshi, I'm curious as to why you removed text at Unter (playing card) and Ober (playing card) which drew a comparison between the German and French card decks. As most English-speaking people are probably unfamiliar with the German decks, I would have thought this was helpful information. Cheers.Bermicourt (talk) 07:57, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The French jacks are usually copies of Spanish sotas, not wealthy noblemen. There is evidence that both obers and unters originally were mounted on horses (Johannes of Rheinfelden, 1377). The Württemberg pattern is a late 19th century design. Tarot never gained a foothold in Spain, which is one of the few countries in Western Europe where it was absent. Cavaliers are still found in modern French tarot decks. The Queen was not dropped in Germany; outside of novelty decks and tarot decks, the queen was nonstandard. It was the cavalier that was dropped in France.--Countakeshi (talk) 13:08, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks

Hi Countakeshi, I just want to thank you for sharing your expertise and wisdom as I've been creating and amending articles on card games. I'm a translator, not a card expert, but having acquired some German decks, I'm interested in learning to play the games associated with them and developing articles is one way of doing that. It's good to know there's experienced help around. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 21:16, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for translating many of the articles from the German wiki. There are some factual errors and claims that need to be checked from the untranslated articles but that will be corrected eventually. Many of these articles lack sources which may take some time to gather.--Countakeshi (talk) 21:50, 6 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Do let me know if you spot any errors or have any queries. I'm happy to check the articles over, now that my understanding of both German and English terminology is better - I've already gone back and changed some of the wording to reflect English usage. I also have access to sources such as Parlett's Book of Card Games and Danyliuk's 1x1 der Kartenspiele which I've used to correct or clarify one or two things as well as the online www.pagat.com. They don't always agree with one another though! Bermicourt (talk) 12:41, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ottocento (card game)

Hi, I've just created the above as a redirect to the relevant section of Tarocchini. Does it merit adding to the template as a separate link or is it too close to Tarocchini? Bermicourt (talk) 18:22, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ottocento is a tarocchini game. Tarocchini is a group of related games that include ottocento which is the most popular form.--Countakeshi (talk) 18:35, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I see that you know each other. I wanted you to meet. User:Bermicourt has been taking care of the historical component of many Germanic games and categories for sub-groups of card games (which leads to that genealogical tree I wanted to create in the first place. It’s not about proof that a game is related to another but the relation a particular game has with others in their same class.

Does he know of your commendable work here in the field of cards ? 2804:1B1:C480:700:4107:48E3:F477:DF74 (talk) 2804:1B1:C480:700:4107:48E3:F477:DF74 (talk) 00:39, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I wasn’t logged in. Krenakarore 👋 ! Krenakarore ^TK 00:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It can be quite to difficult to 'prove' that two games are related but its relatively easy to group them according to various characteristics. However, generally I use Parlett for patience games and McLeod for competitive games. BTW are you guys members of the IPCS? Bermicourt (talk) 07:46, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cego and Droggn

Hi Countakeshi, thank you for your helpful edits on Template:Tarot and Tarock card games. I know there's no hard and fast definition of the distinction between 'tarot' and 'tarock', but I'm just curious to know why you moved Cego and Droggn to Tarock and Tarot respectively. Cego has its own bespoke deck and is not played with the classic Austrian Industrie und Glück cards, typical of Tarock games. That said, it is called Badisches Tarock, so there is an argument from terminology, but then the Germans call French Tarot 'Französiches Tarock' to confuse matters and, of course, there are those games like Bavarian Tarock which don't use tarot/tarock decks! For me, the 'tarocks' are a family of games played with the Industrie und Glück deck in central European countries where there are referred to as 'Tarock' or 'Tarokk' locally. So Droggn seems clear-cut to me - it's an Austrian tarock game traditionally played with Industrie und Glück cards and IMHO falls clearly into the tarock category. Thoughts? Bermicourt (talk) 08:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tarock and tarot are just transliterations of tarocchi. There is no difference. Card game writers split tarot games into two large categories: ones where the fool acts as an excuse and ones where the fool is the highest trump. The only place that considers tarot, tarocchi, or tarock as separate categories is the tarot card games article (which should be rewritten). Cego treats the fool as the highest trump and is a descendant of tapp-tarock, droggn treats the fool as an excuse and is descended from tarocc'ombre. The rules define what category they belong to, the actual deck is of no significance. The same game can be played with different decks depending on the era. Card games should also be in lower case unless they are commercial card games.--Countakeshi (talk) 01:53, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. The only formal categorisation I've come across is Dummett's tripartite classification. Type I are Italian games with more than 3 trumps with a value > 1. Type II and Type III correspond to the distinction you make based on the role of the fool, with French Tarot, Droggn, etc being Type II and Königrufen, Tapp Tarock et al being Type III. Hmm, let me reflect on that.

Re your last comment, the sources must vary because leading authorities like Dummett, Parlett, Arnold and the www.pagat.com website all use title case when referring to card games. Bermicourt (talk) 07:49, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalization is not a serious issue. The tripartite division is still valid in Dummett and McLeod's "A History of Games Played with the Tarot Pack". Volume I includes types I and II. The only games that don't reflect any of these three are the handful of games were the Fool is the lowest trump. These were played in the Piedmont-Savoy-Nice area. Dummett lumps them in with type II out of convenience as they were often found in the same rule books.--Countakeshi (talk) 00:04, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a copy of Dummett's books? They're out of print and only obtainable at silly prices. Bermicourt (talk) 09:18, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have copies of "Game of Tarot" and "A History of Games..."--Countakeshi (talk) 10:12, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cool. I only have Twelve Tarot Games by Dummett, but a growing handful of books on tarot games and others of Austro-German origin in the German language, some of which are quite in-depth. Bermicourt (talk) 11:07, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and DYKs

BTW I'm working on better sourcing for the Austrian and German card game articles and running one or two through the DYK process. Königrufen was a challenge but we got there in the end. Illustrated Tarock was also successful. Grasobern is in the pipeline along with Quodlibet. Bermicourt (talk) 08:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WP:CUE

Hi Countakeshi, I saw you joined the Cue Sports WikiProject! My name is Lee Vilenski (Or, Ed, if you prefer being personal), and I've recently been trying to update the major Pool tournaments (Such as the WPA World Nine-ball Championship, and the WPA World Ten-ball Championship. If you have an questions regarding the project, or have any requests, or would like somewhere to start, let me know. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:32, 25 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Countakeshi, The updated image of the racked balls is incorrect... that is not how the balls are racked in either World Rules or Blackball. This link will show the correct setup. A red and yellow ball on the bottom row need to be swapped as shown. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7kOwTK6d_Rnb1RrbTBReUk0a3c/view — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.66.118 (talk) 20:36, 31 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Macao and Hungarian origins

Hi Countakeshi. The original text for my translation of this article came from Macao which states the game originated in Hungary without, however, citing a source inline. However, there does seem to be some evidence that this game originated in Hungary. For example, Daily News Hungary includes it in a list of Traditional Hungarian Card Games You May Not Have Known on their current website, Alvensleben in 1855 describes it as a "very popular game of chance in Hungary" and Meyer in 1897 states that it is a "game of chance originating in Hungary", repeating this assertion in 1907. There appear to be many more sources saying the same. It certainly seems to have been a Hungarian game for around 150 years and, with no evidence to contradict Meyer, it seems reasonable to name Hungary as the origin. Are you content to reinstate the text. I don't mind adding the references now we have some. Bermicourt (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Daily News Hungary article uses Wikipedia as a source. It actually describes Macau (card game), the crazy eights variant that originated in Hungary. Years ago, I thought of translating the German Macao article but I found it unsatisfactory so I created a section in the Baccarat (card game) article describing Macao. I think it doesn't merit its own article. I deliberately excluded Meyer as a source. I couldn't find evidence of Macao in Hungary prior to the 19th century. The game was already widespread in western Europe by the late 18th century.--Countakeshi (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A barnstar for you!

	The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
	For creating an article from a months-old redirect at Fifteen-ball pool ––Redditaddict69 ^(talk) ^(contribs) 11:49, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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German playing cards

Hi Countakeshi, thank you for your edits, but I see you've removed the section I added on the 52-card German-suited packs that ASS have produced and wonder if that was done in error. As you know, a full German-suited pack today is 36 cards, down from 48 in the past. We know that they originally had 52 cards although I don't think any survive. If they did they would have Obers and Unters not Queens and Jacks. So this is highly unusual and clearly part of the story. Bermicourt (talk) 13:05, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My apologies, I now see you've just moved it and that is fine! Sorry to bother you and keep up the good work. Bermicourt (talk) 13:06, 17 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Swords (suit)

Hello. You removed approximately a third of this article, including a reference, with no edit summary to explain the change. I've restored it. If you disagree, please start a discussion on the talk page. Thank you. BlackcurrantTea (talk) 21:16, 13 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Keirin Manroku cards reference

Hi, I'm looking at the reference you added in this change.

What page of the Keirin Manroku is the reference meant to be pointing to? Thanks —porges 05:14, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what page it is on. It was from a documentary about mahjong and Japan in YouTube. Here are other references: [1] and [2]. Shipwrecked Chinese sailors brought the game of Madiao to Japan.--Countakeshi (talk) 06:20, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you —porges 19:05, 19 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Card game style guide

Hi Countakeshi, following our chat, I've drafted up some card game guidelines and flagged them up on the project talk page. I didn't think the existing board game style guide was particularly appropriate so, although I've drawn from it, I felt it was better to keep them separate. Do let me know what you think. Cheers. Bermicourt (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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