User talk:JzG/Archive 192

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Archive 185

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Archive 190

The great SchroCat witch hunt

Hello Guy, I hope you're well. I've been struggling with your comment at AE, if I'm honest. While it is the more level-headed and benevolent of admin comments there, it is the one that gives the most sense of wanting to ignore the very obvious problem that we seem to have in IB discussions from the pro-faction side of the argument.

I do think we have a serious problem. Ritchie333, whom I much respect and admire, started the case because of one particular user who harassed, harangued, badgered and bludgeoned their way through the Sinatra RfC in order to grind those down with opposing views. This all went ignored, particularly by the four admins who I approached to step in. It continued to be ignored which allowed people carry on baiting and bullying SchroCat who, through lack of admin intervention, took it upon himself to defend. There's no point in taking it to ANI as it is an unproductive time sink, as is AN, so what alternative, other than to take on the defending yourself, is there?

Now we are starting to see people like Barkeep49 and Guerillero twisting the case to make it about SchroCat. The "ok boomer" comment was the last straw for me; it is utterly disgraceful for anyone, let alone an admin, to use such ageist, hateful language; this phrase was repeated by another user (non-admin) (Mclay1) later on in the thread. I think it's dangerous to be going down the path of sanctioning the result rather than the cause; but I'm not entirely surprised that we are, when we have people line Barkeep firmly behind the steering wheel. Cassianto^Talk 07:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Cassianto, thanks for the ping as this gives me a chance to write something that didn't fit at AE. There is not consensus that OK Boomer is the hateful slur you're thinking. I know you weren't previously familiar with the expression and so there could be a level of misunderstanding here. I say this having helped write the lead and contributed to the sourcing on this topic. Some feel like you have been writing that it is a slur but that is by no means the only interpretation of the phrase. Clearly you don't care for me, but I know you are a top notch content person and so I thought a chance for you to reexamine the sources/context of the phrase might help here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 10:24, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Barkeep49, oh, sorry, I had no idea we need a consensus to determine if something is "offensive" or not? And from an admin, too. Stunning.

It's filthy, ageist language. Ageist language like that in real life is not tolerated. In the workplace, for example, would see someone wind up in a an employment tribunal. I don't know why this place is any different. There's even a reliable source on the matter saying it's ageist. Once again, you're talking out of your rear end. Cassianto^Talk 13:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

And there are reliable sources saying it's not. But your position is held by some and I see you have thought about it so I certainly won't try to change your view. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 13:14, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Cassianto, as far as I can see, everyone there is sincerely trying to improve the encyclopaedia but at least one and probably three or more people have become excessively vested in a specific content outcome. This could escalate into the Infobox Wars Round 3,728 or everyone could calm the fuck down. In my view these disputes are a massive festival of lameness. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I have no opinion on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#I-82-I, but "OK Boomer" is definitely a slur.

The sad part are the sources that freely admit that it is a slur but claim the the older generation deserves it:

" 'OK boomer' is also just the right amount of dismissive, and yes, it does feel good to be dismissive of yet another person... the boomer generation, who enjoyed a thriving economy, had an easier time buying homes as well as better chances of finding and keeping their jobs – and somehow tricked themselves into believing this was largely the result of superior life skills rather than the good fortune of being born at the right time in history. So go ahead, treat yourself to an 'OK boomer' every time you truly feel the need to. You’ve earned it by being hit by (depending on whether you’re a millennial or a Gen Z'er) a crippling global recession, or some of the scariest moments in contemporary politics happening in your formative years."[1]

--Guy Macon (talk) 15:30, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not it's "deserved," my experience with "OK boomer" is that it's more a dismissive comment than a slur - I would consider it just about as offensive as an older person telling a 20-something "shut it, kid." GeneralNotability (talk) 18:18, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

GeneralNotability, "shut it kid" would earn someone a block, certainly at the fingertips of one of our more overzealous admins. I'm minded of the time SchroCat went to someone's talk page, with whom he was in disagreement about one of England's greatest playwrights, Noel Coward, and he was blocked within two minutes for entitling the thread "Coward". The admin assumed bad faith and blocked him, not realising it was Sir Noel's surname. If we can block for that, then we can block for an intended slur. Why isn't anyone blocking Geurillio? Because he's an admin and he's exempt from the rules. Cassianto^Talk 18:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Cassianto, I don't think it would. But I refer the hon. gentleman to my earlier response: people should calm the fuck down. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:47, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

JzG, don't think it would, what? Warrant a block? Maybe not from you, but that's not what I said. People should "calm the fuck down", I agree. And admins should do their f**king job, and practice what they preach. That way, there'd be no need for people to "calm the fuck down". Cassianto^Talk 21:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Guy Macon, meh, I read it as a satirical comment, but whatevs. Technically I am a boomer. Guy (help! - typo?) 20:44, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Barkeep49, I didn't see the original comment, but replying "ok boomer" is a bit like a male editor replying "ok sweetheart" to a woman. It's dismissive, based on identity rather than on the content of the editor's position. SarahSV ^(talk) 21:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Sarah. That is poor decorum, at the very least. El_C 21:47, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

El C, then inevitably, they'll be an admonishment at the very least, for Guerillero and the other Mclay1? Cassianto^Talk 22:15, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I have now done so. El_C 22:23, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, here's the original comment by Cassianto. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 21:58, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Lepricavark, what of it? Cassianto^Talk 22:13, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin:, would Sam have said, "ok sweetheart"? GoodDay (talk) 23:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Or "Whatever, Jew"? --Guy Macon (talk) 23:54, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Guy Macon, "ok boomer" is just as bad as that, I agree. The only difference being is that religion is a choice and age is not. So it's as bad as a racist slur, as race, like age, cannot be changed. It's now an established fact; ageist comments are accepted around here, it just depends on who says it and who it's directed at. I have no idea how old Guerillero is, but assuming they're a millennial, if I were to call them a spotty-faced little erk, I would expect to be blocked. The laughable thing is, Guerillero has no idea how old I am; there's at least four decades that separate me from the baby boom years post WWII. But prejudice can also be perceived, not just based upon fact. Cassianto^Talk 06:18, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I grew up in a time when people stood strong against insensitive words, insults, if you will, that were meant to hurt one's feelings, or put a dent in one's ego. Resistance, rejection and growing thicker skin helped move us beyond the hurtful words. Of course, times have changed. It's evolution, but in many instances our feelings have become far more vulnerable to hurtful words, and we express more emotion when feeling offended. We will continue to grow as human beings but there will always be the basic functions (the biology) inherent in all living beings that contribute instinctually to natural selection, building herd immunities and survival of the fittest. I dealt with a lot of name calling as a child, and one of the things that helped me was a very simple children's rhyme, Sticks and Stones - just a little piece of history I wanted to share. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Cassianto, no, definitely not as bad. "OK boomer" may originally have been intended as an ageist slur, but it has basically come to mean "yeah, whatever". Guy (help! - typo?) 21:20, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Being a boomer meself, didn't think it was a slur, and ok sounds positive enough. Perhaps just in this town a bit of good-humoured slagging is commonplace. Guess that's just a Boomer's Story, goes off to put on gramophone. . . dave souza, talk 20:09, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Get off my lawn, you damn kids! --Guy Macon (talk) 20:19, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Not by coincidence, had just been reminded of reading City c. 1960, SF in which gramps grumbles at a robotic lawnmower. Imagine that! . . dave souza, talk 21:03, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Arbitration Appeal

You are involved in a recently-filed request for clarification or amendment from the Arbitration Committee. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment#2020 Infobox Arbitration Enforcement and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the Wikipedia:Arbitration guide may be of use.

Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2020 (UTC)