User talk:John of Reading/Archive 5

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Editing Janet Ross

Thank you for your welcome and initial assistance. I have three questions. First, in the article on Janet Ross, I unsuccessfully have tried to link to the Italian Wikipedia article for her home: Villa di Poggio Gherardo. Do I need to creat an American Wikipedia article to link to? Second, I have randomly added the books she has written. I now want to rearrange the list chronologically. Is there an easy way to do this. Third, I have found a sketch of Janet Ross I would like to include. The sketch is at the beginning of her book The Fourth Generation, which is freely downloadable on Googlebooks. The sketch predates 1900, and presumptively is in the public domain. I have read the help sections on uploading pictures; unfortunately it is not insultingly explicit enough for me. What steps do I need to take to add this picture? Cheers Henry Heater 23:38, 3 August 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henryheater (talk • contribs)

I've just lost the long answer I typed here. Let's try a quick edit to see if the servers are working again... -- John of Reading (talk) 07:31, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Janet Ross (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

OK, I'll try again. The article is looking much better now.

• I've edited the article to use the "inter-language link" template. This adds a little "it" link, which links to the article at the Italian Wikipedia. {{ill|it|Villa di Poggio Gherardo}} displays as Villa di Poggio Gherardo. You could create an article at the English-language Wikipedia if you wanted; it looks as if people have written about it, so it passes the notability test. (And Wikipedias are distinguished by language, not by country - this isn't the American Wikipedia).
• There's no built-in way to sort the list by date. You'll have to re-arrange the lines yourself.
• First download the picture to your own computer. Then upload to WikiMedia Commons using this form. For the "Destination filename" choose something as informative as possible, perhaps something like "Janet Ross sketched by John Doe 1891.jpg". For the various "description" and "source" fields give as much information as you can. Leave the permissions field blank. For the "Licensing", choose one of the options marked "Public domain", whichever fits best. Then, once the picture is uploaded, edit the top of the article and find the line that says "image=". Change that to "image=Janet Ross sketched by John Doe 1891.jpg", or whatever, and the picture should then be displayed.

Any problems, feel free to ask again. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:42, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Editor assistance/Requests.
Message added 12:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Hasteur (talk) 12:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Technical Barnstar
	thanks for helping me with customizing my signature!!! Someone35 (talk) 14:26, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Glad to see that it's working properly now. I'll watch out for it! -- John of Reading (talk) 14:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Helen (actress) -> Helen Jairag Richardson

Awesome, thank you. I noticed that you were doing up to 7 edits a minute. I might need to give this AWB a try. Is it easy to use? It doesn't appear to be from looking at the instructions. Does it work with Google Chrome? Any hints to help me get started? BollyJeff || talk 17:13, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It takes practice. For a simple "search and replace" task like this it's fairly easy to set it up; and then it's only one or two clicks per edit. The program runs in a separate window, not as part of your browser. You've obviously seen the "How to get started" page. If you get that far, it would perhaps help if I emailed you the "settings" file that I used for this "Helen" task, and then you could use "File > Open settings" and have a look at how I set it up. -- John of Reading (talk) 17:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

So I would have to set it up on each computer that I use. Not sure if its worth it, but please email me the file anyway. BollyJeff || talk 19:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

It's on its way. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:27, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Editing Janet Ross - Adding Images

I managed to insert a picture of Janet Ross (albeit too small and dark); however, I have failed in my attempt to add an image of the frontispiece to her book Leaves From Our Tuscan Kitchen. What am I doing wrong? If I do want a size larger than the thumbnail, what would you suggest and how would I do it. I want the thumbnail to be next to the paragraph where I first mention the book. Can I insert the image comand at the end of the sentence where I want it to appear, or do I do it at the start of the paragraph, or does the insert command need its own empty line? By the way , "American" is too a language. See H. Mencken, The American Language. We stole it fair and square from the Brits and then totally bastardized it.

You were almost right, but the parts of the "image" command are not separated by a lower case "L" but by a special character called "pipe". Here's one --> | On my keyboard it's at the bottom left, next to the "Z", at shift-backslash. There are various options for sizing and positioning pictures at the Wikipedia:Picture tutorial; but the current size and position looks fine to me. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Still Editing Janet Ross

My latest attempt to add a photo of Ross' childhood home won't take. I am starting to feel frustrated. Sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Henryheater (talk • contribs) 05:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Janet Ross (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Fixed - image names are case-sensitive apart from the initial letter. Don't be discouraged; you've created a better article than anything I've managed to write here. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Kindness is rewarded!

Thank You for helping me out with my question.

IceHockeyHero (talk) 10:43, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Astray

Template:Astray has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:07, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Roblox

Thank you for the criticism. You see, if you would take a quick look at the Roblox wiki (Not endorsed by Wikipedia I don not think), it has a few different articles. Eiter way, I am sure I can come up with somting! If ou would be so kind to help out in Steam locomotives that would be splendid. Thank you!

Levonscott User talk:Levonscott User:Levonscott 11:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

talkback

Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages just for you from Smithers7. Go over to his talkpage and check it out!

---

Once you have read and/or replied to the message, you can take this template down by simply removing the {{user:Smithers7/tb}} from your talkpage.

smithers - talk 19:20, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks!

		The Original Barnstar
		Thanks for all your help making my userpage look good again! smithers - talk 21:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Uploading Picture

Good day John

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction regards uploading Elviz Guru Bhai picture. last week when i first uploaded 3 pictures to "wiki-comms" the "magic texts" where there and i should have cut and pasted them. However on subsequent re-visits to "wiki-commss" I can see all 3 pictures but do not have a clue where the "magic text" are for these files...can you tell me how you found them..not that i am lazy or anything but i find these tutorials very "non-userfriendly" unlike youtube etc...why don't they just have simple video's on "howto" ..:) Anyway thank you once again. I may be back this is all new to me..

Kind Regards

Billy Nashad www.am-well.com sponsor's of the "El-viz Guru Bhai: Prince of Peace World Tour" www.youtube.com/elviz77 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elviz77 (talk • contribs) 17:24, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

To work out what you had done I visited Special:Contributions/Elviz77 and from there I jumped to the Wikipedia file upload log and the Wikimedia Commons upload log. That third link shows the three files that you have uploaded.

I've just noticed how you have signed your name here. If you are here to write about yourself and your own performances, then I'm afraid that this is strongly discouraged. Please read Wikipedia:Autobiography before taking your draft any further. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:52, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

image trouble

Thanks, John, for your help on image uploading. I have now uploaded two images and tried to insert them. One appears as and where it should, with the correct caption. But using the same format for the other image just brings up a box with the file name in red and the caption in black where the image and caption should appear. The image that won't appear was uploaded a day before the one that works, and I used the same format for the successful image, just changing the file name and caption. Any idea what am I doing wrong? TankhouseTom (talk) 18:15, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

According to your list of files uploaded to Commons, you named the file with an uppercase "JPG" extension. I have fixed the article to match. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:37, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your patience with this novice! TankhouseTom (talk) 21:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Transgender

Dear John of editing Twice you removed the origin of the word Transgender. You seem to feel you are the last word and keep on removing things put into the site. Origins of words are important because the word is evolving so the word needs to have a starting point to show why the word was invented. Words are important to us and need solid definitions and one of the reasons the origin is important is because of the need to have people understand why the word was invented. So the umbrella word TRANSGENDER was invented to cover all people who have a gender conflict of some kind. From the man or woman who wear the underwear of the other to the transformed operated on hundreds of times TRANSSEXUAL. So You need to stop your quest on removing editing comments on this word. Also open up the Wikipedia page TRANSGENDER so the word so it can be edited also. You see even though you might have a few academics on the page commenting they are not the last word on the subject. As you are not the last word on any of this. So stop the discrimination and open up the edit on the word TRANSGENDER! Renee1423

Well, I won't remove it from Portal:Transgender/Intro again myself, but I hope someone does. I still do not think this level of detail belongs at the top of the Transgender Portal. From Wikipedia:Portals, "The idea of a portal is to help readers and/or editors navigate their way through Wikipedia topic areas through pages similar to the Main Page. In essence, portals are useful entry-points to Wikipedia content." The detailed coverage of the topic belongs in the Transgender article, not in the portal.

Your text is not suitable for the Transgender article either, in its current form. The text uses first-person and second-person pronouns, "I am told" and "you may ask", which is contrary to the advice at WP:TONE. It also cites no reliable sources which would allow a reader to check the truth of what you have written. This is one of the core principles at Wikipedia - see Verifiability. If you were to add it to the article without sources, then any editor would be allowed to challenge and remove it, and it would be up to you to provide sources before putting it back - see WP:BURDEN. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Deletes

Good day John

Further to your last message regards a) self bio and b)deleting please not the following request for help.

I have deleted the original article and given permission to my sponsors "Am-well Trading Co.," to do the article on their new page. My problem is that in order for them to use my photo's I have to also delete them from my "El-viz Wiki-comms. I have used the "{{db-userrequest}}" and {{db-author}} but they are still there !!! ?? Help.

Kind Regards

Billy Nashad

A tiny point first - the deletion message was from NawlinWiki (talk · contribs), not from me. But the deletion doesn't surprise me.

Next, are your sponsors planning to create "their new page" at Wikipedia, or at some other site? If at Wikipedia, they will quickly run into the Wikipedia policies on advertising and conflict of interest. They should read the FAQ page for businesses.

Next, the {{db-userrequest}} and {{db-author}} aren't working because the files are not at the English-language Wikipedia but at Wikimedia Commons. That's a separate project, and the deletion policy and methods are very different. I've never had to look at it before, but the page you need seems to be commons:Commons:Deletion policy. You might try using this as the tag: {{speedydelete|By request of the uploader, was going to be used for advertising/self-promotion}}. This should expand to a big red message box if you use it at Commons. An admin at Commons will then decide whether this falls within their deletion policy.

Finally, I don't understand why the pictures need to be deleted. You have released them under a Creative Commons license which is specifically designed to make it easy for others to use the pictures.

I hope your next tour goes well! -- John of Reading (talk) 19:31, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Note that Billy has at least two accounts here, User:Elviz and User:Elviz77. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:20, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Your most recent message to him needs fixing somehow. -- John of Reading (talk) 15:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

It's a notification template from Commons that apparently doesn't work on en.wikipedia. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:30, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations!

The Executive Director's Barnstar

Hello John! Congratulations on being the second-ever recipient of the Executive Director's Barnstar, which I am planning to award occasionally to editors who are making a particularly significant contribution to the Wikimedia projects. You were nominated by User:Maryana (WMF) for your tireless work staffing the help desk and other new-editor help spaces. Maryana tells me that your work there is especially noteworthy because you tend to not just give people links to policy pages -- you actually take the time to help them individually. Thank you :-) New editor retention is the Wikimedia Foundation's number one priority for 2010-11, so it gives me particular pleasure to honour and celebrate your work. Congratulations, and thank you! If you'd like to nominate anybody else for this award, please feel free to leave a message on my talk page. Sue Gardner (talk) 01:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's one to print out and frame! Thank you, Sue, for this special award, and thank you Maryana for the nomination. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:16, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello. You have a new message at WP:Village pump (technical)'s talk page.

DYK for Ascog House

Materialscientist (talk) 08:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

AWB Google search

John, I'm finding that Google is so,metimes correcting the spellings in a search and not returning typos. For example searching for "royality" just gives me those articles listed for "royalty". Do you know a way around this? Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 21:36, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Are you enclosing the word in double quotes in the AWB search box? Without the quotes, I get a useless list of 100 pages, mostly with the word "royalty" in their title. With quotes, I get a more useful list of 74 pages, with just 17 articles. Of those 17, some contain the typo, some used to contain the title typo until you fixed it, and some I cannot explain. -- John of Reading (talk) 10:33, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! Regards, SunCreator ^(talk) 12:48, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, John of Reading. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Help desk.
Message added 08:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Siddhartha Ghai (talk) 08:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much!

Dear John -

Thank you so much for retrieving the article I was working on, as well as for the helpful tips. I am truly grateful.

Thank you,

TXN2VATxn2VA (talk) 23:01, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

That's great. Do feel free to ask for help with it. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for Answering Question Regarding Requests For Feedback

Thank you, John, for your response regarding my question regarding typical response time for Requests For Feedback. Sincerely, User Revilos1 Revilos1 (talk) 22:51, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Re:2000 Philippine Census Information

Hello, Mr. John!

Thank you for your correction! Apparently after I check, the address is confusing. Initially the address I get from the Indonesian Wikipedia on the article. But after I check it the correct address is 2000 Philippine Census Information.

In this regard I will try to fix the mistakes I've done as quickly as possible. Sincerely. Wagino 20100516 (talk) 07:36, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

That's more like it! Does the Indonesian Wikipedia need fixing somewhere? -- John of Reading (talk) 07:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

In some places I have been and are being fixed it. Cheers. Wagino 20100516 (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

Excellent. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:23, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Ernst Mayer (sculptor)

Hello John, You tagged the above article as needing a copyedit and you claim that the intended meaning is not clear to you in places. I am the author of both the German and the English article, but my native language is German, so I might have made mistakes in the English version. If you let me know what is “not clear to you”, I can perhaps correct or clarify things. Best wishes--Hans (talk) 11:58, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I wish I'd made notes on the talk page! Re-reading it now, the one sentence that's not clear to me is the one beginning "Mayer also created". -- John of Reading (talk) 12:09, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I have corrected that sentence. I am planning to transfer more of the German article to the English Wikipedia.Would you mind keeping an eye on the article and possibly my others, which I listed here? Thank you --Hans (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

OK. I have added that article and some of the others to my watchlist. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:25, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There is a mop reserved in your name

I have observed some remarkable contributions from this account. I am curious as to why are you not an administrator. Pardon that you have struck me as the kind of editor who could be a good one, and that you seem qualified by a cursory review. You exemplify the essence of an Administrator without tools! I hope you will consider serving in the fuller capacity.

My76Strat (talk) 07:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, one or two of the admin tools would help me do a better job at the help desks. But my chance of acquiring any new tools in the near future is approximately zero.

It's one thing to know how to point new users at relevant policy pages, and quite another to apply them in non-trivial situations. To see the gaps in my knowledge of Wikipedia policies, and my lack of confidence in applying them, have a look at WP:HD and WP:EAR at about 11:00 UTC most weekdays, before the Americans have woken up, to see which questions I haven't answered. For similar reasons, so far I've done nothing at WP:NPP and WP:FEED, and almost nothing at WP:AFD.

But thank you for the thought. One day, maybe. -- John of Reading (talk) 12:47, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

The Hat Makes The Man

Thanks for doing that, altho after doing the edit I had the thought than "singed" cound be a typo for "singe", ie a monkey-shaped hat. A much more improbable but attractive possibilty!TheLongTone (talk) 08:38, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Alberto Santos-Dumont (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'm pleased to see that curious phrase has been fixed at last! -- John of Reading (talk) 12:14, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Saturday Night Special - The Film

Mig (talk) 17:50, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

This page is full of laudatory comments about the film -- reads more like a publicity page. I have never tried to vandalize this site or anything of the sort -- I simply tried to call attention to its innapropriate use of a page to promote oneself in hyperbolic fashion. Please respond Mig (talk) 15:56, 21 September 2011 (UTC) thank you.

Saturday Night Special (film) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Your bold edit was reverted by Wireless Keyboard (talk · contribs). Looking at the history of the article and of your talk page, I see that the edit was initially reverted as vandalism, but then the warning message was immediately removed from your talk page. I would guess that he/she saw from your talk page that you were a good-faith contributor, but by then it was too late to change the edit summary in the article history. So I wouldn't worry too much about it. You could ask about it at User talk:Wireless Keyboard - but remember that this happened back in February.

I was going to suggest that you post a short message at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film asking for one of the specialists to have a look. But then I saw that I posted there in February; my earlier message has been archived to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film/Archive 34#Saturday Night Special (film) without anything being done. So I have waded in to the page and have tried to clean it up myself; see the article talk page for a description of what I've done. I will keep an eye on it. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi -- appreciate the feedback. I think that something must've gone wrong when I tried to call attention to the "Saturday Night Special " page because when I saw the history, I saw that there was nothing left (by me?) and that's when it was reverted -- that was bizarre. I don't know how that happened and I apologize for what I saw, I signed my name and reported it. In any event. I have never seen a page on anyone as laudatory as this one. It's not credible and looks like publicity. Gosh, I wish someone were to write a page like this on my short "anonymous (street meat)." And take a look at the list of festivals into which it has been accepted. Personally, I don't feel right about putting it on on the page. Someone else should do it. Alarob did my wikipedia page several years ago and the French one was done by Remi a while back.

Well, here's the list of festivals for "anonymous (street meat)" -- kind regards --

anonymous (street meat) - UCLA/Ciboney productions. Exhibited: California International Short Film Festival “Honorable Mention” Santa Monica, CA USA 2011 Daazo European SF Centre, Hungary 2011 Ibergente, Quito, Ecuador 2011 Famewalk International Short Film Festival, “Nomination,” California, USA 2011 Cannes Festival de Film SFC, France 2011 Seoul Metro International Extreme Image & Film Festival, SESIFF “Going Underground” South Korea 14,321 monitors (est. 3.6 million viewers) 2011 Berliner Fenster , Berlin Metro International Film Festival “Going Underground” Germany - 2800 monitors (est. 3 million viewers) 2011 Cyprus International Film Festival, Nicosia, Cyprus 2011 Burbank International Film Festival (BIFF) - AMC Theater Women’s Night Block One, California, USA 2011 X-Open Saint Petersburg, Russia, Film Festival “Beginning” 2011 In the Palace International Film Festival, Balchik, Bulgaria 2011 Early Melons International Student Film Festival, Bratislava, Slovakia 2011 Le VII European Independent Film Festival (ÉCU) - France, Italy, Spain, UK 2011 Indie Lisboa International Independent Film Festival, Portugal 2011 East Silver Market, Prague, Czech Republic 2011 Ffresh — the Student Moving Image Festival of Wales, Wales 2011 International Festival of Kinoproba Russia Lunacharskogo, Russia 2011 Watersprite Cambridge International Student Film Festival, UK 2011 International festival of short films and visual art WIZ-ART, Russia 2011 Digital Film Festival Izolenta, Sweden 2011 busho Budapest Short Film Festival, Hungary 2011 Miradox Portal, Russia 2011 Breaking Ground European Film Festival, The Netherlands 2011

Mig (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I guess that Wikipedia:Notability (films) is the page you need. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:22, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanx. I started a page with some links, but I'm not well versed. And got deadlines! Kind regards and best always! Mig Mig (talk) 17:50, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've added yet another message at the top of ''anonymous (street meat),'' -- John of Reading (talk) 19:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Hi -- I don't know what your message entails exactly. People have been adding to the page, but I don't always know who that person might be. I added some images -- they are my images and I'm waiting for the copyright from Washington -- after about 6 months. Regards, Mig (talk) 02:19, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anonymous (Street Meat) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I added the message "It may have been edited by a contributor who has a close connection with its subject". Wikipedia articles shouldn't normally be created or edited by people such as yourself with a close connection to the subject-matter. This extra message acts as a warning to readers that the information in the article needs to be checked against independent sources. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest for more.

To see who has edited an article you can look at the page history. And for the picture copyright I see that you've been answered at WP:MCQ. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:25, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

"anonymous (street meat)" images

Hi -- my migdia.chinea@ucla.edu email address reroutes to this EarthLink one.

I give Wikipedia permission to publish images contained in my film "anonymous (street meat)" -- namely, the posters, "Josie" and "Josie's eye." These images are in my short "anonymous (street meat)" and they belong to me -- I'm the short's director, writer, producer and editor, etc. This film was first exhibited to the UCLA film class at UCLA Bridges Theater on December 18, 2010 and I edited it further editing in January 28, 2011 -- with yet another edit in March 2011. Back in March I applied for Copyright protection for "anonymous (street meat)" and Ciboney Productions -- the company that I created for the purpose of releasing this film -- under federal law and have yet to receive the number, but I have been in communication with that office and it's just a matter of a few more weeks.

Thank you and kind regards,

Migdia Chinea UCLA MFA TFTDM Screenwriting, Directing and Digital Media 2012

The email address contained in the Wikipedia copyright page does not work. Thank you --Mig (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

"does not work"? Can you be more precise? Posting your copyright statement here won't help, either, as your email will need to be logged by the volunteers who catch the emails sent to permissions-en@wikimedia.org or permissions-commons@wikimedia.org. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:40, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Please take a look at the notes on the "anonymous (street meat)" discussion page. Thanx so much Mig (talk) 22:21, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Anonymous (Street Meat) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I've replied there. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:41, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:NCHP

Hi John,

First, congrats on the award from Sue (you earned it!) :)

Second, I notice you're pretty active on the New contributors' help page. Do you feel like that page is working for newbies and editors who help them? Steven Walling and I have been A/B testing warning templates, and we're wondering if there are other tests we can run on things in en.wiki that haven't changed much since 2006. Do you think we might be able to try out different structures/layouts to make WP:NCHP a more effective and productive space? Do you have ideas for changes that might make it more navigable? Let me know what you think! --Maryana (WMF) (talk) 20:15, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll have a think - watch this space. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:31, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

There are two separate pages to talk about.

The one where I am "pretty active" is the questions sub-page, WP:NCHQ. It gets 1 or 2 questions and ~50 page views each day. For the editors who find it, it works well, as most questions are answered quickly. But those questions would be answered just as quickly if they were at the main WP:HD, and plenty of newbie questions are handled there too.

WP:NCHP itself needs a redesign. For starters, you have to scroll down past some navboxes to see the content aimed specially at the new contributors. The page contains many links to pages that would be confusing for new contributors, and some elements on the page look as if they are clickable links but are not - see Wikipedia_talk:New_contributors'_help_page#My_Battle_With_the_Banana-Yellow_Box for one user's account. And one of the "featured" links takes you to WP:FEED which is currently backlogged.

Before November 2011 there was no questions sub-page; WP:NCHP consisted of a fairly large header (Final version here), and then the questions and answers.

My preferred option would be to lose WP:NCHQ completely, and have a redesigned WP:NCHP include a link to WP:HD. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:24, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed... between WP:NCHP/WP:NCHQ, WP:Help desk, and WP:Welcome (which links to both of the former!), the situation looks pretty Kafkaesque, to put it mildly :) So, just thinking out loud (or, err, in wiki markup), some possible ideas for SOFIXING it:

• Since we've figured out a way to randomize user talk templates, Steven and I could do an A/B test, prominently featuring different links to different help spaces in our messages to new users and then tracking where/if that sample of newbies actually asks for help.

• If you think the brokenness of this process is pretty obvious and there wouldn't be any opposition to changing it, I'd be happy to work with you and anyone else who's interested on redesigning it.

• If you do think there might be some mild consternation were we to hack these pages down overnight but an A/B test would be overkill, I could poke a few more of the people who I notice in the help space rev histories and ask them how they feel.

Any of those strike your fancy? Any other ideas? --Maryana (WMF) (talk) 17:26, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think an A/B test is the way to go:

• I think the daily number of "new user" questions at WP:HD and WP:NCHQ is too small. You'd have to run a test for weeks to get a big enough sample for a statistical analysis.
• The welcome templates link to yet another page, Wikipedia:Questions, one we haven't mentioned here yet, and I think they should continue to do so. That page looks a good one to me, presenting the list of question desks and help options quite clearly.

I don't think you/we/I should shut down WP:NCHQ without a larger discussion. How about Wikipedia talk:New contributors' help page/questions with a link from Wikipedia talk:Help desk?

Has anyone researched how many new editors disappear through the cracks, because

• they ask for help in unlikely places?
• they get the {{helpme}} syntax wrong?
• their new article is deleted without any notification on their talk page?

-- John of Reading (talk) 07:14, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Hm, you're probably right about the A/B test. While in this second round of Huggle warnings testing we're beginning to see, tentatively, that if you give newbies a template with one link instead of three, they're more likely to actually follow the one link... they still don't follow it in nearly the kinds of numbers you'd need for statistical significance.

Yes, this summer our team of academic research fellows actually did some work on the question of how often and where newbies ask for help. Not that often, and anywhere but help spaces, it turned out. Because I was involved with hand-coding the sample, I got to see all the tragic examples first-hand: newbies crying ((helpme)) instead of {{helpme}}, trying to respond directly to bots and other automated messages left on their talk pages, even using edit summaries as help request boxes. See the graphical breakdown (right) of current help request locations (caveat: this is not including deleted revisions, so the number in article talk should probably be much higher).

Help request locations, 2009-2011

My thinking on why help requests happen so rarely is that newbies (even the budding future Wikipedians) overwhelmingly assume Wikipedia is like Facebook: a monolithic corporate structure with no actual humans monitoring what happens on its pages. You wouldn't type "help me" into a Facebook textbox and expect automatic assistance, and that's exactly how Wikipedia, with its fancy templates and byzantine page structure, currently feels to outsiders.

I also wouldn't necessarily want to do away with WP:NCHQ (that's actually one of the more user-friendly help spaces, with big green buttons at the top and all), but I would say that help spaces headed by giant unnavigable templates and tons of warnings and disclaimers are not actually helpful and probably turn more people away than they help. One thing to consider is the Jimbo method (he recently changed his user page from this to this): i.e., get rid of the stuff that makes these pages look really slick and professional and get back to the more humble but personable roots of the original Wikipedia. Just an idea – what do you think? Not sure if it would require consensus or just being WP:BOLD, but I really believe it's an easy fix that could reap a ton of benefit for new users and help space monitors alike. --Maryana (WMF) (talk) 17:06, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

With WP:NCHP in its current design, not many people will see the headers at the top of WP:NCHQ, since they'll be arriving via an "Edit a new section" link. They'll only see Wikipedia:New contributors' help page/editintro.

By all means propose a new design for WP:NCHP. I suggest you do it in a sandbox somewhere, since the current design was discussed at Wikipedia_talk:New_contributors'_help_page#Redesign. -- John of Reading (talk) 11:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Started tinkering with the WP:NCHP template (here) – take a look and tell me what you think. Cosmetics aside, the changes I think are important:

1. get rid of all the noticeboard/abuse stuff at the top (why would a new contributor ever need to see all that?)
2. get rid of the unnecessary clutter, links to nowhere, and "we don't do that here"
3. add a link to preloaded personal sandbox (super useful for newbies to have their own personal space for test edits, I think, and I'm using the Russian Incubator project as an example)

Of course, this is just my idea, and I'd be happy to see others get worked up. I'm in favor of any new version that limited options to just the very basic newbie essentials and did away with all the instruction creep. If you want to jump in and add or remove anything, feel free :) Oh, and know anyone else who might be interested in making changes or weighing in? Some of the folks from that page redesign thread? --Maryana (WMF) (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

anonymous (street meat)"

Ok, I see it. Nonetheless, sound is such an important category -- especially when there's no real soundtrack. I designed the music by using layered free downloads. And then there's Josie humming --

I also suggest that in addition to sound, FX is added any crew list because it's becoming more and more important in all movies. I created with the help of a friend the Fx by using the film editing program Final Cut Pro:DMig (talk) 07:40, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

BTW, Some people see this as a feminist film and it may just be selected for something in that category -- I'm not objective about that. Thanx so much for your help! Mig (talk) 07:33, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and is there a way to delete the other two links one gets when googling anonymous (street meat)? they serve no purpose. Thanx so much!!!! :)Mig (talk) 15:43, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Those links have been deleted from Wikipedia, but it takes a few days for Google to realise. There's nothing we can do about that from within Wikipedia. -- John of Reading (talk) 19:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

http://www.nalip.org/LITI/2011/11_0816.html They made an error and wrote that it was directed by Ruben Rabasa and Josie Martineaux and by me -- but Josie and Ruben star in the film. I directed, etc. Mig (talk) 22:22, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi John Reading: There will be more on this film, I believe. It's been out since February -- I finished it on Dec. 18 2010 and edited some more to add the special effects on January 21, 2011. It was selected to a festival almost immmediately.

Looks like you have in interesting career ahead of you. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:26, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi John of Reading -- please observe. All exhibitions have been removed from the page -- festivals see thousands of films and they pick a handful to be exhibited -- so it is relevant. These people, Canute and the other one, do not know how important that is. If they are right, then you must go back to all films and remove all exhibitions. These items are pertinent because this is a UCLA film and it is unprecedented for a student to go this far so fast. I think this removal is some sort of vindictive thing because I am a woman and this is a film with a message. Take a look here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Special_(film) "The film has a sudden and powerful ending." It reads like a publicity page. Please help me -- thank you Mig (talk) 18:13, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The exhibitions were removed by Cameron Scott (talk · contribs) in this edit. Please take it up with him, as I'm sure he has cleaned up more film articles than I have and knows what is usual for a film article at Wikipedia. Don't go accusing him of being vindictive, anti-women, or whatever, because that is not how the Wikipedia community works - see WP:AGF. Do make it clear that you are the creator of the film, so that he knows where you are coming from.

You could ask him to check my clean-up of Saturday Night Special (film) at the same time. As for "The film has a sudden and powerful ending" in that article, it is clearly marked as part of an unsourced quotation, so carries very little weight. -- John of Reading (talk) 18:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi John of Reading -- but there is a double standard, apparently -- here's a history, since everything was removed. Can't say I wasn't warned about this sort of contentiousness. I'm very disappointed. Got a message on my talk page that I have a "conflict of interest." All I tried to do was post information that is available on the internet. I never said "anti-women" -- I said a film with a message. That was part of the Bruin article and will be in the new article in the Huffington Post. But women are getting the short end of the stick because this is important. I appreciate your assistnace in this, but I find it exhausting to have to go back and forth from one person to the next.

Extended content

Anonymous (street Meat) was directed by Migdia Chinea, a professional screenwriter who, after working as a screenwriter for many years saw her carrer ebb for expressing concerns about a CBS Writers Guild half-pay "access" program for professional Hispanic Guild members. By "half-pay" it is meant that it was half of what the WGA collectively-bargained contract with signatory producers stipulated for all its writer-members. She returned to UCLA to get a Master's because she had been assaulted while teaching for LAUSD and thought she would be able teach film or related subjects in a university setting where she would be "safe." On her first film out as a filmmaker, she made Anonymous (street Meat) based on an original full-lenght screenplay Chinea had writted for a screenwriting class. Chinea acomplished what no screenwriter at the UCLA School of Theater, Television, Film and Digital Media (TFTDM) had ever accomplished, i.e., to have a film selected and exhibited at twenty-four festivals. California International Short Film Festival “Honorable Mention” Santa Monica, CA USA 2011 [1] Daazo European SF Centre, Hungary 2011 [2] Famewalk International Short Film Festival, Nomination, California, USA 2011 [3] Festival de Cannes SFC, France 2011 [4] SESIFF Seoul Metro International Extreme Image & Film Festival, “Going Underground, Bloody Night” Seoul, South Korea 14,321 monitors (est. 3.6 million viewers) 2011 [5] Berliner Fenster , Berlin Metro International Film Festival, Germany - 2800 monitors 2011 [6] Cyprus International Film Festival, Nicosia, Cyprus 2011 [7] Burbank International Film Festival (BIFF) - AMC Theater Women’s Night Block One, California, USA 2011 [8] X Open St.Petersburg Student Film Festival BEGINNING, Russia 2011 [9] X Open St.Petersburg Student Film Festival BEGINNING, Russia 2011, Exhibiting Partners: [10] In the Palace International Film Festival, Balchik, Bulgaria 2011 [11] Early Melons International Student Film Festival, Bratislava, Slovakia 2011 Le VII European Independent Film Festival (ÉCU) - France, Italy, Spain, UK 2011 Indie Lisboa International Independent Film Festival, Portugal 2011 East Silver Market, Prague, Czech Republic 2011 Ffresh — the Student Moving Image Festival of Wales, Wales 2011 International Festival of Kinoproba Russia Lunacharskogo, Russia 2011 Watersprite Cambridge International Student Film Festival, UK 2011 International festival of short films and visual art WIZ-ART, Russia 2011 Digital Film Festival Izolenta, Sweden 2011 busho Budapest Short Film Festival, Hungary 2011 Miradox Portal, Russia 2011 Breaking Ground European Film Festival, The Netherlands 2011

There's no need to paste the deleted text here. All past versions of the article can be accessed through the page history. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks

Many thanks for tidying up the numbering of the Wikipedia: Official Wikipediholism Test. By clicking on the history, I find I can get a link to a useful wiki-link for help with listing, so again, many thanks! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

I score around 10,000 on the test, BTW. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

And I do wish to thank you so much!

I dodn't want this part of my message to get lost. Mig (talk) 19:08, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! -- John of Reading (talk) 20:12, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup-translation of Narrow gauge small locomotives of the Deutsche Reichsbahn

John, you marked this article for cleanup-translation last month. Some improvements have been made, and I think it looks more or less OK now. If there is something I have missed, let me know, and I'll try to finish the cleanup. Otherwise, maybe the tag (and its entry on WP:PNT) can be removed. Cheers! Chris the speller ^yack 04:08, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

All looks good to me too. I have removed the tag from the article and the section from WP:PNT. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:24, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Das ist gut! Chris the speller ^yack 04:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Reversion

Apologies if I made a mistake with my tensification - however, aren't articles meant to be in the past tense?--Hackerrye (talk) 13:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Spain still is a country. I'm checking your other contributions now. -- John of Reading (talk) 13:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Random numbers

Many thanks for your help with {{random number}}. Your fix has been up for a while now and seems to be working perfectly. --Stemonitis (talk) 06:05, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

HD

Haven't bugged you in a while about my proposal for quick responses on the HD User:Ctjf83/HD Edit notice. What can I do to get it going? CTJF83 19:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

To be honest, as the months go by I use the help desk templates less and less! The only configuration option I would be interested in now would be one to hide the entire edit notice so it doesn't waste any of my laptop screen space. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:50, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

And after a quick question at WP:VPT, it's hidden. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

What's that do? CTJF83 23:14, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

When I click "Edit" at the Help desk, this CSS tweak makes the edit notice disappear completely, freeing up screen space. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, ok. CTJF83 17:12, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

thank you

Appreciate you fixing the photo replacement (if you did). I'm still trying to understand all this. It looks great, and appreciate this help feature~~ July Edwards — Preceding unsigned comment added by July Edwards (talk • contribs) 21:33, 17 October 2011 (UTC) I see you fixed it! Thrilling! July Edwards (talk)July —Preceding undated comment added 21:36, 17 October 2011 (UTC).

Yes, that was me. Feel free to ask here if you get stuck again. -- John of Reading (talk) 06:57, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

"no other articles link to this one yet"

For 3 years I thought it meant "this article links to no other articles". I'm an idiot. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Tee hee. But between us we've fixed the problem now. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:40, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe. I dug up a couple of articles with her name and added links.

A joke I made up about my peanut-sized brain:

Question: How does Anna know when the chicken is cooked?

Answer: The house is on fire.

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Something random

		The Guidance Barnstar
		You've always been one of the best responders at the help desk. :)  Obsidi♠n Soul 09:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! -- John of Reading (talk) 09:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Note to self

User talk:Poovendhan -- John of Reading (talk) 07:41, 21 October 2011‎ (UTC)

sortable table problems

Yes, I have some specific problems. Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 10:39, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like it's an IE8 problem. Thanks for your help. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 12:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI? Pdfpdf (talk) 05:47, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Did you check that you had javascript turned on? -- John of Reading (talk) 07:25, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. It says it's turned on. When I'm not logged in, it works. When I'm logged in, it doesn't work. Pdfpdf (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It seems my problem has been resolved! Thank you very much for your help and suggestions - most appreciated! Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 07:55, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

these where → these were

Hi John! No need to speedy answer this; enjoy your vacation! But I have noticed that quite a lot of times already you corrected a dramatical error I keep on making in Wikipedia; the error being: writing "these where" when I should have written "these were". I thank you for that and I would very appreciate if you told me if this website is right about when to use "where" and when to use "were". So I will not repeat my mistakes. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

(The Welsh cottage has broadband) The grammar-quizzes page is correct but not completely relevant, since it is about the distinction between using where and when, not the distinction between where and were. Perhaps a way to avoid these where errors is to imagine that you are writing about a future event. If these will be would be correct if the event hadn't happened yet, then these were is correct when writing about the past. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I will use your help. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 17:55, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry and thanks

Sorry for my clumsy experiments with test pages, and thanks a lot for tolerating me.

Psneog (talk) 20:18, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

No problem! Portals are tricky pages to put together. If you are planning to create one, feel free to ask for help with any formatting issues you run into. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:23, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

Thank you for the help with my archiving. That's what I get for copy pasting. Adam in MO Talk 08:16, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

I've made exactly this mistake myself. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:20, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you...

... for your helpful suggestion. I've implemented it, and it seems to work perfectly. Yunshui 雲水 13:00, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Yunshui has given you a cookie! Cookies promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. You can spread the WikiLove by giving someone else a cookie, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.

To spread the goodness of cookies, you can add {{subst:Cookie}} to someone's talk page with a friendly message, or eat this cookie on the giver's talk page with {{subst:munch}}!

It's time I stopped for lunch, actually! -- John of Reading (talk) 13:04, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Changing a Wikipedia Name

I run an independent music label and we are in the process of re branding my artist he's already on wiki under his stage name, but we want to change it to his new name is that possible with out creating a new wiki page? 11-11-11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.84.28 (talk) 18:26, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, a page can be moved to a new name - see Wikipedia:Moving a page - and it is much better to do that than create a second page.

But since you are here to promote your client, you should first skim through the FAQ page for organisations and read Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You should not be editing the articles about your artist, but should instead be making your suggestions by editing the article's Talk/Discussion page, and your suggestions should be backed up with reliable sources. In particular, if your artist's new stage name is not yet well known then it may not be appropriate even to mention it in Wikipedia. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:29, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm new...

So I wanted to change the headers of the main tab of WikiProject: Spaceflight Portal page so that the capitalization looked nicer (i.e. "Selected picture" to "Selected Picture"). I have no idea how to do that, could you assist me at all? --Philipipip (talk) 20:25, 5 November 2011 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Philipipip (talk • contribs) 20:21, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

There is a long-standing agreement here that we don't Capitalise Each Word of a title (see WP:TITLEFORMAT) or of a heading (see WP:HEADINGS). I've also just flipped through a few other portals to check that they also display "Selected picture" and "Selected article" with only the first word capitalised. So before making such a change at Portal:Spaceflight it would be best to discuss it at Portal talk:Spaceflight.

As to how you would make the change, this will vary from portal to portal. Portal pages are much more complicated than articles, in that they are put together from many sub-pages working together. For this portal, the line you would need to change is:

{{Random portal component|max=10|header=Selected picture|subpage=Selected picture}}

...which you would change to

{{Random portal component|max=10|header=Selected Picture|subpage=Selected picture}}

I suggest you take a look at Wikipedia:WikiProject Spaceflight/Open tasks and see if anything there looks interesting to you. I'm a bit of an Apollo fanatic myself, as it happens. -- John of Reading (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing

Thankyou for fixing the typos in Fantastic Light and Embassy. I get so involved in producing new articles and making sure that they are properly sourced that I let the odd error slip through. Your work is very much appreciated. Tigerboy1966 (talk) 13:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks! I'm working through a list of about 3000 articles with "the the" errors. -- John of Reading (talk) 14:09, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Ted Hughes

Hi, I just saw your message regarding Hughes' relatives in Heptonstall graveyard. I will need to locate some suitable sources other than my own knowledge. I lived there during the time Hughes' mother and father died and were buried there but no doubt can find credible documentation of those facts. As far as Richard Uttley goes I will do some specific research as my knowledge of him started when I lived in his old house, some years after his death. I will get back with this as soon as possible. Altcult101 (talk) 13:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! Since the text was added here in 2008, ideally it needs a pre-2008 source to confirm it. Otherwise you could end up citing a source that got the information out of Wikipedia, which gets a bit circular. -- John of Reading (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Mercury Cyclone

Sorry about the spelling, I mean where did I learn to spell! :) Starfleet Academy "Live long and prosper." 03:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Mercury Cyclone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

That was just 20 seconds work with AWB. But now I've gone back and read the text and done the job properly. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:36, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

thank you

I am still learning. Thanking you muh for your guidance on Dr. Graham's Homes.

Deja vu 7 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.215.2.138 (talk) 08:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Graham's Homes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I've just watched the Earthquake news coverage. Ouch! -- John of Reading (talk) 08:33, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

More thanks

Hello John, Sorry I left requests for help about editing semi-protected pages in several places. Bad form. But my browser gave me no confirmation that the first request was received so I tried again elsewhere--it surprised me to find in my contributions that they both got to you. However the edits to the Crusades article did not take. You suggested editing only one section -- presumably because the whole article is enormous-- but I don't know how to do that.

There is also a phrase there: "that of the Koran, not the Holy Bible" which I am tempted to edit by either adding a Holy to the Koran or removing it from the Bible, but I don't want to still up the hornets. Any advice? Cheers RobLandau — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobLandau (talk • contribs) 14:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Crusades (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I'd forgotten that "section editing" isn't part of the default user interface. You have to turn it on via the "My preferences" link at the top right - then on the "Editing" tab there's a checkbox labelled "Enable section editing via [edit] links". If you still get timeout errors when trying to save just one section, then I suggest you take it to Village pump (technical). The experts there will need to know your browser and version.

The word "Bible" is used elsewhere in the article without the word "Holy", so you could mention that in your edit summary when removing the word. -- John of Reading (talk) 14:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

That's exactly what happened -- and after noticing that the first edit was undone, I tried to undo the second myself, but I'm in Thailand with a flaky WiFi connection and both Firefox and IE have timed out. However if you look at: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/f/DeusLoVult.htm I think you'll see that neither my edit nor the original is correct. The rest of this discussion I'll move to the Crusades talk page. I hope this message gets through. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobLandau (talk • contribs) 15:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm no expert, but I'm glad to see you've posted at the talk page. -- John of Reading (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2011 (UTC)