User talk:Gabby Merger/Archive 1
This is an archive of past discussions about User:Gabby Merger. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Disambiguation link notification for January 17
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Cornell NYC Tech
Nice work on the edits to Cornell NYC Tech. I'm not sure what you meant by information that was removed but this is what the article looked like before a couple of us had a crack at cleaning it up. Scary stuff. I actually went to the Cornell Wikiproject to ask if more editors could chip in and add some info - not sure if you saw it there or just stumbled across it but thanks for contributing. Cheers, Stalwart111 12:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Original Barnstar | |
For writing the article on Cornell NYC Tech :). Ironholds (talk) 02:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC) |
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- Van Allen radiation belt (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)
- added a link pointing to Solar activity
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Boston Marathon edits by Kennvido
I think we might have a troll onhand. Kennvido also removed reliable, cited info about the claims about a suspect that I and another editor had placed. I've replaced it, but looks like this person has a habit. It's been awhile since I've edited Wikipedia, but this kind of behavior sure is frustrating. — Yksin (talk) 22:43, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
- And he or she just deleted the stuff you replaced, again. Again, with no explanation. I can't keep up with it... I'm at work. Is an admin needed? — Yksin (talk) 22:47, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for letting me know. Yes, I believe I remember this character from the past. Not sure what his problem is. But it's not something I would ever even THINK of putting up with. Gabby Merger (talk) 23:02, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy
I'll thank you not to accuse me of violating some nebulous "policy" by reverting your incorrect edit. Elizium23 (talk) 03:14, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Read what I wrote on your talk page. There was NO "incorrect edit" on my part. And it's not "nebulous" that you should always leave a comment or explanation when reverting someone. Also, NOT to revert at all if it's not vandalism or incorrect. You failed to explain just how my edits were "incorrect". But just rudely reverted. Not cool...and NOT something I would tolerate. Explain at least why you felt the need to disrespect my edits. Thanks. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:17, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- Your edit was incorrect, and I have partially reverted it for that reason. The "Orthodox" section covers both Eastern and Oriental Orthodox traditions. "Eastern Orthodox" is unnecessarily specific and incorrect for that section. You are more than welcome to cite chapter and verse of which policy I have violated by reverting you. I'm just dying to hear it. Elizium23 (talk) 03:19, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
- If in the context more than just "Eastern Orthodox" was being referred to, then maybe I can understand... But then again, why not have "Eastern and Oriental Orthodox"? Saying "Orthodox" can sound a bit incomplete. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
May 2013
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July 2013
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Bible: Pseudepigrapha on July 23
Hello Gabby,
My name is Jeremiah, and I noticed that you edit the Bible article plenty on times_ Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible _I just want to ask you for a favor in that article. I have scrolled the article plenty of times, and I didn't see much mention or if any information regarding the Pseudepigrapha. Can you please insert some information about the Pseudepigrapha I only read the articles to give suggestions to users who are dedicated to their articles, but I try not to edit the articles of dedicated users such as yourself. I hope that the Pseudepigrapha would be noticed by readers. That is all...
-Jeremiah A.
Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by BIBLEDIT SENTINEL (talk • contribs) 23:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
The Writer's Barnstar | |
Thank you so much Gabby for the quick response to my request on article: Bible -- Cheers -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 06:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC) |
Disambiguation link notification for July 24
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- Asiocentrism (check to confirm | fix with Dab solver)
- added links pointing to Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, East Indian and Polynesian
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Dominican Republic
I'm still waiting for your reply to this message since yesterday. I assumed you had found better things to do in the meantime, but clearly this is not the case as you found the time to revert my changes with the bewildering explanation that "you never wrote anything in the talk page for me to answer" and even dropping me a vitriolic message on my talk page, complaining that "You wrote zero. So as I said, ADDRESS IT IN TALK". The message for you to answer is there, if you can't or won't read it it's not my fault. And I told you twice already, your manners are terrible and if you don't make a little effort to be a little more civil don't be surprised if people respond in kind. Regards.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 06:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
- I opened a dispute resolution request here about this matter.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 03:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
- A decision was taken at DRN, if you revert again I will report you to WP:ANI.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 01:29, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- There was no final decision made, just an arbitrary closing of the discussion...with my last comment un-answered. Not cool. Hardly anyone even participated, so don't give me that. Report what you want... It doesn't matter. Save your threats. The discussion was never completely finished, no matter what TransporterMan wrongly prematurely did or said. Finish up what we were talking about, and try addressing my last point and last question, instead of dodging it. Thanks. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:13, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- it remains closed now. Fine. I won't pursue this nonsense. I leave it alone. As TransporterMan's big issue and hang-up was "if you don't provide reliable source for that pronunciation" then so forth....but the problem is that last point was un-answered...and discussion was closed prematurely... it's whatever though.
- I'm not pursuing this thing anymore. It's too trivial overall. It just seems that French dominance and involvement in DR's very formation seem to be under-played and watered down too much by certain parties. And Wikipedia should not be that way, when it comes to historical facts and points. That's all I was saying really. The pronunciation issue is debatable admittedly, but made its point in a way. Obviously France had the pronunciation from way back, and its pertinent (arguably) to the point (factual and historical point) that France was also involved in DR's very existence, formation, and development, and culture.
- But even so, instead of dodging my last point and question, why not address it? The last thing I wrote was in RESPONSE to what YOU wrote just before that, about "French rule and involvement" supposedly coming much later, etc. If that's the case, why is the whole "French rule" matter brought up so early in the article? Instead of evading that point (which really refutes your claim that it was so much later etc) why not address it? That's all I was saying.
Your comments about Twinkle
Hi Gabby, re your edits to the Twinkle talk page: please be aware that Twinkle is merely a tool that users may use to roll back others' edits. As the Twinkle information page states, users who use Twinkle take full responsibility for their edits made using Twinkle. Please contact the editor who made the edit in question to discuss this issue. Thanks, — This, that and the other (talk) 07:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Proposing to rename the page Nontrinitarianism to Non-Trinitarianism
Since you are a contributor to the Nontrinitarianism page, please share your thoughts regarding renaming the page in order to try to reach consensus. You can find the discussion here: Talk:Nontrinitarianism#nontrinitarianism_or_non-Trinitarianism.3F
Many thanks in advance... Dontreader (talk) 01:54, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Nontrinitarianism
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Apologies
I tagged Taylor Business Institute under speedy deletion criteria A7, yet I must have been something else because such criteria does not cover educational institutions, so I removed the tag almost instantly. Sorry for any stress or inconvenience it might've caused. Ging287 (talk) 13:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for April 8
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April 2014
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Talkback
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Disambiguation link notification for July 7
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Re:Hades
I'm not saying the references are unreliable because you added them, but because they are from unreliable, non-academic sources. As for the first ones, are afterlife.co.nz and tentmaker.org authorized to speak for the groups listed? If not, they are just two guys opinions. The last one already has a bible ref, so another source is not needed unless you are making any additional claims about the meaning of the text or interpreting the quoted text. Editor2020 03:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Talk:Hades as per User:Editor2020 reverts, including that website, please discuss on Talk page. Do not add back into article without discussion, per WP:EDITWARRING, sorry. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:01, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Recent AFD comments
Regarding your recent comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Children's immigration crisis, please remember to assume good faith on the part of other editors and refrain from ad hominem attacks. Keep your comments related to the content of the article, and not the nature of the person making the nomination. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 10:59, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sorry, but some editors are a bit uptight about certain news events and articles. But point taken. Gabby Merger (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for August 7
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Spelling of "bioethicists"
The word "bioethicists" is not hyphenated in common usage, nor is it on Wikipedia (see: Bioethicist. 132.216.227.193 (talk) 02:21, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- maybe so, but at first you totally undid it even as a WIKI-LINK that I put (which was the main point of what I was trying to do). You undid that part of it also, unnecessarily. You could have just changed it to remove the hyphen, only...at first. I see that you did that afterwards, which is fine. But not with your first revert, because that removed even the wiki-link I did, which was totally valid on my part. But yeah, if you prefer "bioethicists" even though "bio-ethicists" is NOT necessarily "wrong" per se, then fine. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 02:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
- Hey, thanks so much for the explanation. I had kept the WIKI-LINK that you had created (see old version, though I did not specify this in the 'Edit summary'. This was an oversight on my part and I sincerely apologise for the misunderstanding. Your addition of the WIKI-LINK was a very relevant one and I did not mean to remove that, and I am sorry it must have looked that way. 132.216.227.250 (talk) 04:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for August 16
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No edit warring
If you disagree with my edits to an article, please discuss them on the article's talk page. See Wikipedia:Edit warring. I began the discussion on Talk:Taylor Business Institute after your previous revert. Reverting without addressing my points is not a useful way of trying to resolve a dispute. Ground Zero | t 01:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I DID address your point. You just don't see it that way. I left a comment in the edit revert, as to why the word "presently" should be left...because of historical context. How is that "not addressing your point"? Don't lie, and claim "edit warring". I addressed your point, and I gave reasons. YOU are edit-warring also, if that's the case. Gabby Merger (talk) 04:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
September 2014
Your recent editing history at Moon landing conspiracy theories shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.
To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. NeilN talk to me 18:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Michael (archangel)
Just thought I would say thank you for finding the reference for Spurgeon on the Michael (archangel) page. Dromidaon (talk) 16:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for September 23
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Hello Gabby Merger, I just created my first article ever on Wikipedia: Book of Elchasai, and I would like for you to expand this article as much as possible. I used this site as a reference: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/elchasai.html, but within the site contains many references for sourcing by scholars and church fathers. Perhaps this may give you some interest as this article is around your editing field -- Thnx & Cheers -- JudeccaXIII (talk) 20:05, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia. You appear to be engaged in an edit war with one or more editors. Although repeatedly reverting or undoing another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Wikipedia this is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.
One of your recent edits has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. LeadSongDog come howl! 01:19, 17 October 2014 (UTC)
Halloween cheer!
Hello Gabby Merger:
Thanks for all of your contributions to improve Wikipedia, and have a happy and enjoyable Halloween!
– JudeccaXIII (talk) 19:14, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for November 8
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Disambiguation link notification for November 25
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Handling copyrighted sources on Wikipedia
Hello, Gabby Merger. :) As an admin who frequently works copyright, I was asked to look at the situation at ANI with the content you recently added to Uterine cancer. I just wanted to stop and have a word with you about our approach to using copyrighted content. While facts are not copyrightable, creative elements of presentation – including both structure and language – are. As a website that is widely read and reused, Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously to protect the interests of the holders of copyright as well as those of the Wikimedia Foundation and our reusers. Wikipedia's copyright policies require that the content we take from non-free sources, aside from brief and clearly marked quotations, be rewritten from scratch. For an example of close paraphrasing, consider the following:
Source | Your first edit | Your initial cleanup |
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We do not yet know exactly what causes most cases of endometrial cancer, but we do know that there are certain risk factors, particularly hormone imbalance, for this type of cancer. A great deal of research is going on to learn more about the disease. We know that most endometrial cancer cells contain estrogen and/or progesterone receptors on their surfaces. Somehow, interaction of these receptors with their hormones leads to increased growth of the endometrium. This can mark the beginning of cancer. The increased growth can become more and more abnormal until it develops into a cancer. | It is not clearly known yet exactly what causes most cases of endometrial cancer, but it's been concluded that there are certain risk factors. Hormone imbalance is one factof for this type of cancer. Much research is going on to learn more about the disease. Most endometrial cancer cells contain estrogen and/or progesterone receptors on their surfaces. Somehow, interaction of these receptors with their hormones leads to increased growth of the endometrium. This can mark the beginning of cancer. The increased growth can become more and more abnormal until it develops into a cancer. | It is not clearly known yet exactly what causes most cases of uterine cancer, but it's been concluded that there are certain risk factors, such as hormone imbalance, and interaction with estrogen. Increased growth can result in cancer. |
I have bolded the content that is taken directly from the source, but some of the other text represents a problem of close paraphrasing. The first version is, as you acknowledge, clearly a problem, but the second edit is an issue as well, as you are retaining much of the language and structure of the original.
I realize it is disconcerting to have content removed, but every time you save a page on Wikipedia you receive a notice that says "Content that violates any copyrights will be deleted." The correction of copyright is the most urgent thing, however that's done. Straightforward removal is well-within policy, and editing articles to remove copyright problems is actually exempt from the prohibition on edit warring for that reason.
It is critical that content you place in articles conform to our copyright policies. We have had to blank and delete articles that are years old because of content such as that, losing the work of multiple editors. The essay Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing contains some suggestions for writing that may help avoid these issues. The article Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches also contains some suggestions for reusing material from sources that may be helpful, beginning under "Avoiding plagiarism".
If you believe that you have added content in the past in this manner, please go back and address it now. It is far better to remove and rewrite content within a relatively short window than to have to excise it years down the road. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Disambiguation link notification for February 20
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The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Arian Catholicism nominated for deletion.
I've nominated the above article for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia guidelines. As you were the only "big" contributor to the article that I could see, I'm letting you know. Debate is occurring at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Arian Catholicism. --KRAPENHOEFFER! TALK 00:20, 23 March 2015 (UTC)
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Is a term
Wikipedia generally avoids "is a term" as it is not about the words, but the concepts behind the words. But I'll not revert this again. We'll see if anyone else cares. Editor2020, Talk 05:21, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
DB page
Hi Gabby, I want to sincerely apologize to you for any trouble I have caused you while on WP. I've learned a lot this past few weeks about WP and what's needed (albeit a lot about DB as well). I'd like to work with you (instead of against each other) to make an unbiased article on DB's page that we can both agree on. I admit, I did not see the bias at first, but you are right, the current article needs a lot of improvement. That said, I'd like to take the sources I have found on the delete-request page (positive and negative) and make one unbiased article about DB that would inform the public, but do it in a manor that would not harm his Christian ministry, but also I don't want to do it in a way that would flatter or boost egos. It's important to me, as a Christian, to never boost any pastors ego, it is morally damaging to give to much praise to any human. Anyway, I look forward to working with you in the future. Bradburns (talk) 18:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Arius
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Your changes seem to be for the worse. First, my main complaint against the article was that it implied that Constantine and Licinius "legalized" (and "formalized" whatever that means) Christianity. This is incorrect. Christianity was made illegal by Diocleatian in 303, and was legalized when the persecution was ended by Galerius in 311. You might be thinking of the so called "Edict of Milan" in 313...but this wasn't really an "edict", had no legal force, and anyhow Licinius and Constantine could not have legalized something that was already legal. So the current version of the article still contains the major error. Introducing Gallienus makes the paragraph worse, since he made Christianity legal a half century before the time period being spoken of...it would be better to have no reference made to him, especially since as it stands it seems to imply that he just acted, since Christianity is "newly" legalized. Anyhow I'm not sure where you are coming from. I have made clear my point...the current article implies that Constantine legalized Christianity...he did not. Are you arguing against this point?Ocyril (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I see now, looking at the history, that you do disagree with me. You say, "it mentions both emperors, and is valid and overall accurate. "Christianity" before those two emperors was NOT "legalized"...but actually considered criminal." You are incorrect, for the reasons I have stated. I will get you some citations that you can look at so we can avoid an edit war. But, again, you are incorrect to assert that Christianity was criminal before Licinius and Constantine in 313...Galerius made it legal again in 311.Ocyril (talk) 23:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC) The first sentence is certainly inaccurate. First, it implies that the Catholic Church was "newly" legalized...as if for the first time, which is incorrect. The Christian Church was legalized by Gallienus in the mid 3rd century. Second, although it was made illegal during the "Great Persecution", it was not made legal once again by either Constantine or Licinius; Galerius made it legal once again by promulgating his Edict of Toleration in 311. The rest of the paragraph is, strictly speaking, not inaccurate, so i will leave it...even though (maybe) it anachronistically suggests that "homoousious" was a watchword for Athanasius from the very beginning, whereas the truth is he only emphasized that term long after the initial "controversy" (after 340). I think it would be better just to eliminate the whole paragraph, but will compromise by eliminating only the first sentence which is incorrect. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ocyril (talk • contribs) 16:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC) |
"Luke was Jewish"
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Regarding your message. I am not following you around. Your edits are simply bleeping on a number of pages I have watch-listed. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
Greek Orthodox ChurchAbbey, you really need to read and understand wp:verifiability. You don't have to like it. You just have to accept that this is the basis on which Wikipedia works. Of course Dr. K.'s edits are biased. Of course they are selected because they support his POV. That's the way that Wikipedia works. Getting yourself banned won't stop that happening and it certainly won't correct any mistakes in the article. You need to learn to work within the system that is Wikipedia. As far as Wikipedia is concerned, if something is verified by a reliable source then t is verified. That's the end to the story. You can't remove it, you can only find other material that challenges it, and let the sources speak for themselves. You would have achieved much more by doing a simple Google search to find those sources than by getting engaged in an edit war and arguing ion the talk page. When you find your references you can add whatever you like. It doesn't matter how much you revert or how much you argue, you won't be able to change a single damn thing. Those are the rules. You need to accept them and learn to work with them. If you can't learn to do that, your time here will be brief and frustrating. Mark Marathon (talk) 08:25, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
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Discussion
I hadn't even noticed that it was your edit at New Testament. Your change to the punctuation isn't even related to my edit, which addressed a broader issue. Actually two broader issues. 1) opinion of one person given as the view of a few; 2) redundancy of repeating the mainstream view twice.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- Well it seemed a bit coincidental, try looking at it from my position. But anyway...it's meant as an EXAMPLE of the "few", so instead of removing whole statements, why not find other sources to bolster up (per WP recommendation) instead of total removal? To make it "few". (Sproul source is more than just a blog, but ref for sample...) So instead of the constant uncivil BAD FAITH accusations, with "weasel" this and that, why not follow WP rules on Civility and Assuming Good Faith? But again, the point here is to find other sources to support the "few" word, instead of removing everything because you don't like the statement, and feel the need to hide or obscure facts that you don't think are important? Yes, the first statement of "general view" gives the notion that it's not the total view, but elaboration is not necessarily to be removed, and a valid source that makes the point. Gabby Merger (talk) 01:13, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- If you want to retain the statement about "a few", at least find a source that directly addresses the subject (i.e. the author's view of why they believe Paul is the author) rather than a comment in passing in an article about a tangential subject.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:18, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- And what's with this prattling about 'bad faith accusations'. It wasn't even your edit I removed from the article.--Jeffro77 (talk) 01:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- I was referring to the general point that I made a simple punctuation adjustment on something, on a religious article, that you right away checked out (because the article being on your watchlist) and removed stuff from the very thing I did a minor thing on, that you would think I most likely support, in general. I made the correction in punctuation and separated the statements, because as one sentence it was very redundant indeed. You removed what I did there in terms of the overall punctuation and presentation of that paragraph. Also, I believe that that paragraph, from what I remember, has been that way for years now. I correct the punctuation problem (that made the sentence really repetitive in the wording), and you removed the reference, though not the best one. It just seemed a bit confusing. The very reason I even did what I did (as I said) was because of redundacy. My fix made the thing at least a little less redundant in a sense. But yeah, the source is poor in that it's not about Hebrews per se, but one from Sproul on that is hard to locate. Gabby Merger (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- Stop being a drama queen. Your minor punctuation edit was trivial (and it did nothing to address the redundancy either). The diff for the recent edits of the article made the problematic content evident. That is all.--Jeffro77 (talk) 03:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- I was referring to the general point that I made a simple punctuation adjustment on something, on a religious article, that you right away checked out (because the article being on your watchlist) and removed stuff from the very thing I did a minor thing on, that you would think I most likely support, in general. I made the correction in punctuation and separated the statements, because as one sentence it was very redundant indeed. You removed what I did there in terms of the overall punctuation and presentation of that paragraph. Also, I believe that that paragraph, from what I remember, has been that way for years now. I correct the punctuation problem (that made the sentence really repetitive in the wording), and you removed the reference, though not the best one. It just seemed a bit confusing. The very reason I even did what I did (as I said) was because of redundacy. My fix made the thing at least a little less redundant in a sense. But yeah, the source is poor in that it's not about Hebrews per se, but one from Sproul on that is hard to locate. Gabby Merger (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- While I do understand your point, and I may have jumped to conclusions (a bit) on this particular matter, try to remember that it stems from last week where you blatantly (no mistake about it and by your own admission) followed me around and checked recent edits of mine on recent articles, because you saw the "607" edit I did (a long time ago) as a big "weasel-ish" thing etc etc, where you (dramatically) put a cute "weasel" icon on my page, and accused etc, and thought it was something worth checking on my other recent edits in other articles for, and thereby (arguably) you were being a bit of a "drama queen" with that, if that's the case, (and though we got into a cool debate and discussion on your talk page regarding the "70 years" etc, and I never even reverted the removal of the edits on the 607 article because I did admit that it was not necessary to have it there, though the motivation was only to inform and maybe make complete, etc). But the "drama queen" stuff (though you of course won't admit this, lol) kinda sorta started with you last week, because you went off on me and got flustered (maybe with some slight justification, though a bit of an over-reaction in a way) over that 607 article thing. Where I made clear it was a minority view of just one or two churches. So (again) if I over-reacted a bit in this case, understand why, and where it stemmed from. Last week with your admitted checking and following was not that long ago. And I thought (maybe wrongly in this matter) that you jumped on a simple edit or punctuation thing I did, and assumed the whole paragraph was wrong, simply because I myself didn't totally remove the redundancy. So that's basically it. But again, getting to the point, yes there was redundancy for sure (which is why I separated the sentences in the first place) and the ref source is weak for that particular statement. But it's a fact that R.C. Sproul (a noted theologian etc) believes Paul wrote Hebrews. Anyway, good day. And good editing... Gabby Merger (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- As I clearly told you last week, I did at that time review your recent edits—after I came across an edit at 607 BC where you had unambiguously injected theological bias (the use of "some researchers" there was the very definition of 'weasel words', and yes, the weasel is cute)—to determine whether you had added similar theological bias to other articles (and that was found to be the case). I further advised you (with a quote from WP:HOUND) that doing so is a correct use of user history.
- In this case, your minor edit was trivial (and was located in my Watch List rather than specifically checking your recent edits), but the associated diff indicated a different problem with edits added by someone else.
- In all cases, I have provided clear reasons for the edits I have made. If you believe there is some instance where I have reverted your edits for no reason, feel free to point it out for further discussion.--Jeffro77 (talk) 15:01, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- It is obvious that we both edits articles about religion, so there are going to be times when I edit an article that you have recently edited. If you assume every time that happens that there is some conspiracy against you, you are just causing yourself undue stress.--Jeffro77 (talk) 15:08, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- While I do understand your point, and I may have jumped to conclusions (a bit) on this particular matter, try to remember that it stems from last week where you blatantly (no mistake about it and by your own admission) followed me around and checked recent edits of mine on recent articles, because you saw the "607" edit I did (a long time ago) as a big "weasel-ish" thing etc etc, where you (dramatically) put a cute "weasel" icon on my page, and accused etc, and thought it was something worth checking on my other recent edits in other articles for, and thereby (arguably) you were being a bit of a "drama queen" with that, if that's the case, (and though we got into a cool debate and discussion on your talk page regarding the "70 years" etc, and I never even reverted the removal of the edits on the 607 article because I did admit that it was not necessary to have it there, though the motivation was only to inform and maybe make complete, etc). But the "drama queen" stuff (though you of course won't admit this, lol) kinda sorta started with you last week, because you went off on me and got flustered (maybe with some slight justification, though a bit of an over-reaction in a way) over that 607 article thing. Where I made clear it was a minority view of just one or two churches. So (again) if I over-reacted a bit in this case, understand why, and where it stemmed from. Last week with your admitted checking and following was not that long ago. And I thought (maybe wrongly in this matter) that you jumped on a simple edit or punctuation thing I did, and assumed the whole paragraph was wrong, simply because I myself didn't totally remove the redundancy. So that's basically it. But again, getting to the point, yes there was redundancy for sure (which is why I separated the sentences in the first place) and the ref source is weak for that particular statement. But it's a fact that R.C. Sproul (a noted theologian etc) believes Paul wrote Hebrews. Anyway, good day. And good editing... Gabby Merger (talk) 14:48, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- Ok, well as I said, it was meant as something simply to inform and make complete in a sense since it has been a matter that's definitely been brought up, of discussion for decades, though definitely a minority "fringe" view in that sense. (By the way, not just for "theological reasons", but also just simple believed-to-be historical chronological reasons, though of course not agreed with by the vast majority of historians, scholars, or most theologians, etc.) But I never reverted you on that particular article last week, or re-inserted it, since it was a small view comparably. Which I conceded. But as far as this recent article, it was good that you removed the redundant statement, I was just a bit (at first) wondering why you removed the source too. Your point was that it was a "blog" and it was not really about the authorship of Hebrews. The second point is very true, but the "blog" contention is debatable, as that webpage is not some rooty-tooty "blog" by some religious Protestant. But the actual source for R.C. Sproul's works in his Presbyterian views etc. But yeah, it would be nice to find something of him that deals specifically with Hebrews' writership. But I didn't think that something said in "passing" always necessarily disqualifies it as a source that simply makes the point. But a better stronger source for that statement is of course more desirable. Maybe I can locate one somewhere. By the way, just curious, did you ever hear of R.C. Sproul before this? Gabby Merger (talk) 15:22, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- No, never heard of Sproul, but even if I had, and even if his blog should be deemed a suitable source in general, a comment in passing in an article about a tangential subject still would not qualify as a suitable source. A suitable source would need to be about the subject (i.e. provide at least some basis for why he believes it, otherwise it's just empty argument from authority), especially if it is being stated as a view of others as well (even 'a few').--Jeffro77 (talk) 15:31, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- Regarding your statement, "not just for "theological reasons", but also just simple believed-to-be historical chronological reasons", I am not aware of any source independent of theological reasons that asserts 607 BC for the destruction of Jerusalem. Can you point me to any?--Jeffro77 (talk) 02:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I meant "believed-to-be historical chronological reasons" OF the Watchtower, etc. Meaning that the WT does not ONLY believe in 607 as Jerusalem's destruction simply solely for "theological reasons" but also because they believe it to be the historical date in general. I meant from their view-point of "believed-to-be" historical etc. Not just for Messianic Kingship reasons, but for all of it in general. As just a point also of historical date. Though of course not the majority or general view. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:32, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- It's just a point of fact, and obviously was what I meant, that the position is that it was the historical date (obviously) which gives reason for the "theological reasons". From their perspective and reckoning and understanding of Biblical statements. Not sure why it's so "funny" necessarily, and also not sure how you didn't know what was meant in my other comment. I never said (or implied) that the "believed-to-be historical date" was from secular authorities. (We already know this and went over this.) Obviously JWs believe that 607 was the date also historically, in general, not just solely for "theological" reasons alone. But, rightly or wrongly, as simply (also) the historical date, from their understanding of certain verses. You obviously know this already. And that's what was meant by me in my other comment. You put it all as as "theological reasons" when it's all part and parcel. JWs believe it was the date for the event, in general too as just a point of history. Gabby Merger (talk) 04:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- You're going round in circles. They only believe it is the 'historical date' because of their theological opinions in which they have a vested interest. There is no other basis for arriving at such a so-called 'historical' date. It is self-evident that they also believe it is the 'historical' date, but not in any independent manner. It in no way justifies asserting their POV as that of "some researchers".
- Also, I've added a clarification to our previous discussion, regarding how the NWT mistranslates Jeremiah 25:29.[1].--Jeffro77 (talk) 05:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- It's just a point of fact, and obviously was what I meant, that the position is that it was the historical date (obviously) which gives reason for the "theological reasons". From their perspective and reckoning and understanding of Biblical statements. Not sure why it's so "funny" necessarily, and also not sure how you didn't know what was meant in my other comment. I never said (or implied) that the "believed-to-be historical date" was from secular authorities. (We already know this and went over this.) Obviously JWs believe that 607 was the date also historically, in general, not just solely for "theological" reasons alone. But, rightly or wrongly, as simply (also) the historical date, from their understanding of certain verses. You obviously know this already. And that's what was meant by me in my other comment. You put it all as as "theological reasons" when it's all part and parcel. JWs believe it was the date for the event, in general too as just a point of history. Gabby Merger (talk) 04:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- That's the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks.--Jeffro77 (talk) 04:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I meant "believed-to-be historical chronological reasons" OF the Watchtower, etc. Meaning that the WT does not ONLY believe in 607 as Jerusalem's destruction simply solely for "theological reasons" but also because they believe it to be the historical date in general. I meant from their view-point of "believed-to-be" historical etc. Not just for Messianic Kingship reasons, but for all of it in general. As just a point also of historical date. Though of course not the majority or general view. Regards. Gabby Merger (talk) 03:32, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I said clearly "from their understanding, rightly or wrongly, from verses in the Bible, they arive at the date and believe to be the historical" date. Obviously NOT from anything outside of that, in the way of secular authorities etc. And yeah, of course YOU (as well as I) are going around in circles, because you keep rowing with one oar, making me do so too in a way. I was merely answering your question (which I was a little surprised why you asked it) of what I meant by "believed-to-be historical", as you seemed to think I was meaning (for some reason) that it was from any outside source. That's not what I meant. As far as the "theological reasons" the point too is why would they be so "vested" if they didn't believe it was the actual actual actual genuine historical date to begin with? That makes no sense. It's all TIED IN, was my point. And also, if it was "587" instead of "607" (according to the whole "2520 years" view, which I know you don't believe as an atheist or whatever, but again from THEIR perspective) we'd still be living in the "last days" anyway. Instead of it starting in 1914, it would be 1934. So side point, we'd still be in the "end times" if that's the case. But again, not to digress too much, I was simply answering your question, even though I thought that the discussion was already over. You were not sure what I meant by "believed-to-be historical date" not just solely "theological". The WT believes it to be the accurate true date as a point of general history. And because of the whole "Gentile Times" thing (as you know of course) for the whole "Messiah's Kingdom" breaking in for the "end times" etc etc. It's whatever. I was addressing your question, that was it. And yes, I noticed your addition in the other discussion, and your contention that they "mis-translated" Jeremiah 25.29, when they didn't, because seeing other translations they say "I begin" or "I am beginning" it does NOT say what you said of "already beginning". There's no real difference between the word "beginning" and "start of". THAT'S THE POINT. It says "I am starting off". You could easily claim even with the NWT rendering that God "already started off". So? Because in all versions the word "already" is NOT there. Whether you use the word "beginning" or "start". Also, I'm a little confused as to what your point is, either way, whether the words are "already beginning" or "first" or "starting off". Because if it's "already beginning" as you said, wouldn't that ALSO be (obviously) before the other nations anyway? The point is that all versions is obviously that Jerusalem would have evil caused by God to BEGIN with with, before the other nations. Why would He say "I am beginning with you" (as other versions have it, which makes the point too)? Also, again, how does your "already beginning" negate the point that Jerusalem would get it first? Before other nations? Gabby Merger (talk) 05:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- Do you have a damaged spacebar? You only need one space after a period, not 2, 3, 4 or sometimes 5. You might like to try the return key occasionally though. There's this new invention called the paragraph. And perhaps you could better aim for conciseness in your responses by not repeating yourself and by leaving out redundant things like "It's whatever."
- This claim that the JW view of history is 'all tied in' with their theological views is irrelevant. You already know full well that the JW view about 607 BCE is not the view of "some researchers" nor is it merely the JWs' opinion of a 'historical' view in isolation from their theological views. And even if it were (and it's not), it remains a fringe POV.
- Jerusalem was quite definitely destroyed in 587 BCE. And the JW interpretation of the so-called 'gentile times' is entirely wrong, even from a scriptural perspective. Revelation 11:2 specifies the 'times of the nations' during which 'Jerusalem would be trampled' to be '42 months' (=3.5 years); it referred to the period from 66 CE until 70 CE. The superstitious claim that 'we' would be living in 'the last days' anyway is simply wrong, and the whole idea was 'borrowed' by the JWs from their Adventist origins.
- You say that you 'thought the discussion was over', whereas actually you simply ignored all the more direct scriptures at the other discussion that contradict the JW view, instead preferring to debate more ambiguous passages, even though in context they also contradict the JW view.
- You are genuinely 'confused' about how the JW rendering of Jeremiah 25:29 is different to other translations?? Really? The NWT attempts to say that there isn't calamity anywhere else until after the calamity in Jerusalem. You claim there is some significance about the word "already" not being there, but the verb used indicates a process that had already started, and that was in the fourth year of Jehoiakim (605 BCE). The calamity for Jerusalem began in that year when Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem (as indicated in Daniel 1:1, 2 Kings 24:1 and BM21946:12-13, but denied by JWs); that siege was halted by Jehoiakim paying tribute, which he then did for three years, until he refused in 601 BCE (more accurately, it was early 600 BCE, before Nisan) after learning that Babylon lost a battle with Egypt, which led to another siege in late 598 BCE and the exile in early 597 BCE and the eventual destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BCE. The claim that the calamity is starting with Jerusalem (or first in the 2013 revision) precludes calamity from affecting other nations before that, and that simply isn't consistent with the historical facts, and it isn't supported by the original text. Assyria quite definitely suffered calamity long before Jerusalem did, and that is entirely consistent with the fact that in 605 BCE calamity then also began for Jerusalem, but not consistent with the JW claim that Jerusalem suffered a calamity first. I am not aware of any translation that says "I am beginning with you", where again with would be an invalid adverbial mistranslation. It's like hearing someone say, "I'm beginning to read 1984" and you insisting that reading any other books can only begin after that as if they had said "I'm reading, beginning with 1984".--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I do hope that you're not going to make the rookie mistake of claiming that a plain reading of Daniel 1:1 is not consistent with the plain reading of 2 Kings 24:1 without specious claims about Daniel supposedly referring to 'vassalage' (with zero support from the original text or from anywhere else). Hopefully you understand that the Babylonians (where Daniel is set) and the Seleucid period (when Daniel was written) used the accession-year system, whereas Jeremiah counts the accession period as the first regnal year.--Jeffro77 (talk) 08:13, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- ok. I understand the paragraph thing, but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by (or why you brought up) "you only need one space after a period, not 2, 3, 4 or sometimes 5"... given the fact that in the finished page, no matter how many spaces after a period are put in, only one shows up. Not sure why you're complaining about THAT though. The paragraph matter yeah sure (and I do put separated paragraphs on many other occasions, though not always). But what's the beef so much about the "spaces after a period"? The only way you would even know that is by looking at my writings in the edit page. lol. But why? Who cares about spaces after period necessarily in the edit page which is not even the actual page? (I'll try to get to your presentations and arguments a little later, about Assyria coming before Jerusalem, as all parties concede and know, but nations aside from Assyria coming later on, since Assyria was the "world power" before Babylon, that would logically have to be defeated before even Jerusalem, in order for Babylon to have power to even destroy and defeat all these other nations and territories, etc, but I'll try to get more into and focus on that stuff later on.) But what's the big deal about the spaces after a period that you needed to point out and complain about? Gabby Merger (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- You don't understand why I'm looking at your writing on the edit page?? It's kind of necessary in order to reply, which isn't made any simpler by having one long single block of text only broken horizontally by unnecessary spacing. It's not a big issue, but it is irritating.
- Yes, Assyria was indeed the previous world power. After it was destroyed by Babylon, all the nations were then seen as having to serve Babylon (compare 2 Kings 16:7; 17:3; 18:7; 24:1; 25:22-24; Jeremiah 25:11; 27:6-18; 28:14; 40:9).--Jeffro77 (talk) 07:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
- ok. I understand the paragraph thing, but wasn't 100% sure what you meant by (or why you brought up) "you only need one space after a period, not 2, 3, 4 or sometimes 5"... given the fact that in the finished page, no matter how many spaces after a period are put in, only one shows up. Not sure why you're complaining about THAT though. The paragraph matter yeah sure (and I do put separated paragraphs on many other occasions, though not always). But what's the beef so much about the "spaces after a period"? The only way you would even know that is by looking at my writings in the edit page. lol. But why? Who cares about spaces after period necessarily in the edit page which is not even the actual page? (I'll try to get to your presentations and arguments a little later, about Assyria coming before Jerusalem, as all parties concede and know, but nations aside from Assyria coming later on, since Assyria was the "world power" before Babylon, that would logically have to be defeated before even Jerusalem, in order for Babylon to have power to even destroy and defeat all these other nations and territories, etc, but I'll try to get more into and focus on that stuff later on.) But what's the big deal about the spaces after a period that you needed to point out and complain about? Gabby Merger (talk) 15:17, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
- I said clearly "from their understanding, rightly or wrongly, from verses in the Bible, they arive at the date and believe to be the historical" date. Obviously NOT from anything outside of that, in the way of secular authorities etc. And yeah, of course YOU (as well as I) are going around in circles, because you keep rowing with one oar, making me do so too in a way. I was merely answering your question (which I was a little surprised why you asked it) of what I meant by "believed-to-be historical", as you seemed to think I was meaning (for some reason) that it was from any outside source. That's not what I meant. As far as the "theological reasons" the point too is why would they be so "vested" if they didn't believe it was the actual actual actual genuine historical date to begin with? That makes no sense. It's all TIED IN, was my point. And also, if it was "587" instead of "607" (according to the whole "2520 years" view, which I know you don't believe as an atheist or whatever, but again from THEIR perspective) we'd still be living in the "last days" anyway. Instead of it starting in 1914, it would be 1934. So side point, we'd still be in the "end times" if that's the case. But again, not to digress too much, I was simply answering your question, even though I thought that the discussion was already over. You were not sure what I meant by "believed-to-be historical date" not just solely "theological". The WT believes it to be the accurate true date as a point of general history. And because of the whole "Gentile Times" thing (as you know of course) for the whole "Messiah's Kingdom" breaking in for the "end times" etc etc. It's whatever. I was addressing your question, that was it. And yes, I noticed your addition in the other discussion, and your contention that they "mis-translated" Jeremiah 25.29, when they didn't, because seeing other translations they say "I begin" or "I am beginning" it does NOT say what you said of "already beginning". There's no real difference between the word "beginning" and "start of". THAT'S THE POINT. It says "I am starting off". You could easily claim even with the NWT rendering that God "already started off". So? Because in all versions the word "already" is NOT there. Whether you use the word "beginning" or "start". Also, I'm a little confused as to what your point is, either way, whether the words are "already beginning" or "first" or "starting off". Because if it's "already beginning" as you said, wouldn't that ALSO be (obviously) before the other nations anyway? The point is that all versions is obviously that Jerusalem would have evil caused by God to BEGIN with with, before the other nations. Why would He say "I am beginning with you" (as other versions have it, which makes the point too)? Also, again, how does your "already beginning" negate the point that Jerusalem would get it first? Before other nations? Gabby Merger (talk) 05:44, 13 September 2015 (UTC)