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Talk page negotiation table

"The best content is developed through civil collaboration between editors who hold opposing points of view."
by Valjean. From WP:NEUTRALEDIT

"The quality of Wikipedia articles rises with the number of editors per article as well as a greater diversity among them."[1]

When all else fails, AGF and remember that

We Just Disagree
So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy.
There's only you and me, and we just disagree.
by Dave Mason (Listen)

Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement
Try to stay in the top three sections of this hierarchy.

Mail

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Hello, Valjean. Please check your email; you've got mail!
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Anythingyouwant (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators' newsletter – September 2024

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News and updates for administrators from the past month (August 2024).

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  • Following an RfC, there is a new criterion for speedy deletion: C4, which applies to unused maintenance categories, such as empty dated maintenance categories for dates in the past.
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Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 4 September 2024

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That was kind of sweet

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"Now, last time you talked to Slate, you had an update for Wikipedia. Do you have any further updates for Wikipedia that you would like to share? No, I don’t. But that was one of my favorite moments on Twitter of all time. That was amazing." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! The Emily St. John Mandel situation. I have forgotten most of it, so had to look again. I hope she feels justice was finally done here. I still believe we should allow mention of the controversy over Wikipedia's failure. We normally do it as it's clearly notable enough for mention. Our added failure to even mention it is a clear case of censorship to protect Wikipedia's reputation, and that's just wrong. In one breath we have a policy that says Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED, and in the next we actually censor it for the worst possible reason. That example makes me ashamed to be a wikipedian. Consensus can be wrong.
What is that Twitter moment she mentions? Do you have info on that or a link to a tweet? https://x.com/emilymandel -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:36, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My reading is when she tweeted "Interview me please!" and Slate said "sure". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense. It worked. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Ferriss

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Hi Valjean, I'm working to update Tim Ferriss's page with details about his philanthropic work in the field of psychedelic research. I see that you're a member of WP:ALTMED, so I hope that you will consider implementing my edit request on the Talk page. I would love your help. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 14:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Notification

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See Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Ellen G. White. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Destiny (streamer) revert

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@ValijeanCan you elaborate on why Fox News is not credible but other outlets are? Destiny made very extreme remarks regarding the Trump assassination attempt as clearly stated in a Piers Morgan: Uncensored episode. Are you suggesting I include the YouTube video as a source as well? – Brenr 17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC) – Brenr 17:09, September 21, 2024 (UTC) 17:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Valijean I've adjusted the source to YouTube. Let's not revert that. I can find additional sources so it's incompliance with Wikipedia's standards. – Brenr 17:14, September 21, 2024 (UTC)
Why do you even ask such a question? Are you unaware of the extreme biases of Fox News and how it broadcasts falsehoods and deception all the time? We limit its use, especially regarding BLP assertions. If Destiny is really far-left, then there will be multiple mainstream RS that say so. The article already includes multiple descriptions of Destiny's political views. Your YouTube primary source isn't good either. It doesn't even describe him as far-left. You need multiple mainstream, secondary, RS that say it. This is BLP stuff, so we're very careful and delete immediately until better sourcing is provided. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A YouTube video is an original source, which is sufficient. A valid source doesn't need to be one that is from a publisher with a pundit who describes him as extreme. He has demonstrated that by his own words, which is absolutely sufficient as a source. Also, where are you getting this idea that left-wing media outlets would publish articles claiming Destiny is far left when the outlets themselves have a left leaning? – Brenr 17:30, September 21, 2024 (UTC)
YouTube is a primary source we are cautious about using, especially for BLP claims. I use it to back up what RS already say. That's a legitimate use of primary sources. That he might express views that are typically far-left isn't good enough. That's our own POV about what he says. We need secondary RS that expressly say it. If it's that difficult to find such sources, then it doesn't belong in the article. BTW, I have no previous knowledge of either Destiny or Tim Pool. I don't usually listen to podcasts or YouTube channels for such content. I use YouTube for music, and YouTube Premium is well worth the cost. You can read about my media diet. I occasionally hear an episode of The David Pakman Show because my wife shares it with me. She likes him, and he doesn't rant and rave. He seems clearly left-wing and progressive, and not far-left. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:49, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Ferriss - Career section

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Hi Valjean, Thanks so much for you help on Tim Ferriss's page. Would you be willing to look at the new edit request I posted about adding to the Career section? I would really appreciate it. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 15:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you so much! Coyoteadventures (talk) 15:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A cup of tea for you!

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thank you for undoing my edit to Big lie! I didn't realize it was a quote and will be more careful next time :) xRozuRozu (t • c) 04:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're very welcome, and thank you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:19, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 26 September 2024

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A cup of coffee for you!

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Keep seeing your diligent work on Steele dossier pop up on my watchlist. Andre🚐 22:20, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! So nice to have you back. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:33, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Ferriss - additional updates

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Hi Valjean, You have been so helpful on Tim Ferriss's page. I added one more edit request to the Talk page with ideas for the Early life and Personal life sections as well as the lead. I would love it if you would take a look - Talk:Tim_Ferriss#Additional_updates_to_the_page. I'm grateful for your assistance. Thank you! Coyoteadventures (talk) 15:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators' newsletter – October 2024

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 19 October 2024

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* Read this Signpost in full * Single-page * Unsubscribe * MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:13, 19 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Administrators' newsletter – November 2024

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  • Mass deletions done with the Nuke tool now have the 'Nuke' tag. This change will make reviewing and analyzing deletions performed with the tool easier. T366068

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Miscellaneous

Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:22, 3 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

on communication in different societies

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As a New Yorker, I think the truism or the stereotype of learned experience is a dangerous and powerful thing. Universality can also be a delusion at times, but consider empiricism, a topic I know we both cherish. Many things about the universe are counter-intuitive and sometimes even irrational, like quantum mechanics. Yet we still sometimes harbor the delusion of a Newtonian universe. We also inhabit a reality tunnel. Map-territory relation is a fraught topic. What I mean by all of this abstract stuff is that it's better not to generalize even though obviously different societies are different. For example, in low-content or high-context societies, for example, I recently had the occasion to work with a lot of international folks from the Scandinavian region. There's a bluntness that I can appreciate, very different from say, Japan, where it's expected to imply or skirt around certain things. Yes, Israelis also have their own type of communication and some if it is a stereotype, but how can you argue with one's internalized lived experience? Yet, we must, because it can cause to make generalizations go beyond the scope or local minimum which they apply in. As a New Yorker, I've always seen other New Yorkers put themselves out there to help anyone who needs it, and work together as a city to heal or help communities, yet you would hear the stereotype that New Yorkers aren't "nice." Yet, "Minnesota nice" people will tell you that their pleasantries are passive aggression. What's better?

A writer like Gil Troy is reliable. I challenge you to find any errors in his books on Israel and Zionism. Sure, he has a POV, but he's not Dershowitz or Karsh. And there's nothing really that wrong with Karsh either, but he doesn't make any illusion of showing where he's coming from. That doesn't mean he can't be used for facts, since we apparently think it's ok to use an anthropologist, Nadia abu el Haj, on an article about genetics, or we'll use an economist instead of a historian as on the Zionism article. There's a problem on Wikipedia in that we have inconsistently applied, in some cases leading to presumed-unintentional cherrypicking, when it comes to a number of issues about international politics. In fact, I would challenge anyone who thinks there aren't many problems with Wikipedia's coverage of international politics to actually spend some time thoughtfully compiling a source survey of the top Ivy League or Cambridge/Oxford/Stanford/MIT/and similar caliber academics and how they treat international politics, versus some of the academics that end up getting used on Wikipedia but are objectively less pedigreed - maybe not fringe per se, but definitely in a specific niche.

How are you feeling about tonight? I'd say about D 342 is my prediction and a trifecta is looking quite possible if NE-Sen, MT, and/or OH have a D night. House also looks good, as 3 of the R-to-D flips are already priced in by the NYT, and Oracle Pelosi has graced us with her aligning view. Andre🚐 21:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for butting in uninvited, but I ended up here by happenstance & felt the need to reply.
On a somewhat cursory glance of his writings, I would not consider Gil Troy a reliable source as he is rather prone to errors.
In WHY I AM A ZIONIST he writes that "Israel has been falsely accused of ...withholding vaccines from Palestinians" despite that being a real issue (He also cites his own opinion article) He also states "Israel has no legislation based on race" on the pretext that race = "appearance, blood, presumed biology or skin color", which ignores the social aspect of race as a concept. He then uses this as justification for his later reasoning -
"Security-based distinctions may keep Israelis and Palestinians apart but that’s not apartheid, a race-based, skin-color-driven form of legal discrimination." (I'm not commenting on if Israel does or does not practice apartheid, only that he does not understand what the word means, thus failing to properly counter the accusation).
Then, in his book, The Essential Guide To October 7th And Its Aftermath, he references posters saying “Rape Is Resistance and “Babies Are Occupiers Too… Free Palestine by Any Means Necessary.”, but what he is referencing are obviously fake stickers spread online by an outrage grifter named Oil London.
He does not do his research & he does not care for accuracy.
Again, apologies for this potential tirade, I'm not outright objecting to your point or mean any offense to you, but I felt the need to point out issues with Gil Troy specifically. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My reply to both of you is that I don't know who Troy is and haven't considered him in anything I've said. What I said at the Zionism article was generalities and principles. I have not been active in the Middle East topics area and have no desire to get into that quagmire and quicksand. I suspect it has a lot of tricky aspects, just like the gender and LGBTQ topics, and one can easily offend and be misunderstood. I have seen too many good editors blocked because of it in both areas. I am not an expert and have a lot to learn, so I appreciate all input. Feel free to teach me.

My father and brothers have traveled in those areas, while I have only visited Lebanon for ten days in 1996. We stayed with our new family in Beirut. My wife's nephew met a Christian Lebanese girl in England, and we were invited to the wedding. The food and hospitality were amazing! Super healthy and tasty. We love garlic, so got lots of it. It was a different party and restaurant every night. We chartered a bus for the whole family and toured the country. That was quite the experience. As we got further and further south in the Beqaa Valley, stopping at checkpoint after checkpoint, the signs on buildings got more and more ominous. I was the only American, and I was warned, for good reason, to not let my nationality be known. The signs showed huge caricatures of American soldiers with alligator heads with Arabic babies in their mouths, with lots of blood. At one checkpoint, the driver refused to go any further, with the explanation that we were getting too far into Hezbollah territory and could risk becoming hostages. Yes, it sounded like a good idea to get out of that area! Further south was the area from which Hezbollah shoots their rockets into northern Israel. Every day Israeli jets buzzed Beirut, with loud sonic booms and generally spreading terror, because they would also shoot at targets. We saw on TV a little knoll in the Beqaa Valley that had a Syrian tank on it. An Israeli jet blew it up, and that was just on the other side of the coastal range from where we were. This was very different from peaceful Denmark! It turned out that this was normal for peacetime. There were no active conflicts at the time, so this was just the usual way that Israel treated Lebanon. I would love to visit Israel, but with Lebanon stamped in my passport, that would have been out of the question. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 01:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I brought up Troy as an example of a reliable Zionist historian since you (Valjean) said that Zionist historians exaggerate. I'm sure that some Zionist historians do, but Troy is reliable. Responding to Butterscotch - is he a friend of yours? - Israel does give vaccines to the Palestinians[2], Troy's opinion on the appropriateness of the word apartheid is hardly impeaching his credibility, and your example of some kind of outrage grifter doesn't negate the fact that there are very real activists espousing those messages in addition to presumed trolls. Nothing in Buttscotch's thread is any kind of indictment or critique of Troy. Troy happens to be Canadian and is not Israeli. But there are also a number of reliable Israeli historians. Andre🚐 00:24, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't really know @Valjean, as I said, I got here by happenstance, more specifically, I misclicked & my curiosity got the best of me.
The point of how Israel is now handling vaccines though, is irrelevant considering what/when Troy was referring to, Covid-19, where that was an issue.
I was not commenting on his opinion of how appropriate the word apartheid was, but rather that he either 1) didn't have the wherewithal to check what the accusation he sought to deny meant, or 2) he purposefully sought to mislead the reader as he repeatedly emphasizes his incorrect understanding of race to dismiss the argument. (I'm trying to practice good faith in my analysis of his work, so I'll stick with 1).
My "example of some kind of outrage grifter" is important because the only place I can find of any evidence showing posters or stickers with that message are from a bunch of grifters on twitter who peddle in disinformation. (If you can find actual protesters saying either “Rape Is Resistance" or “Babies Are Occupiers Too", please let me know so I can condemn them & block them) It's important because it would show that he doesn't scrutinize or verify his sources. It also didn't help that he didn't actually cite any info for that book, so its contents remain academically useless.
It's fine for him to be highly opinionated, but his inability to properly fact check his sources to support those opinions leave him as a sub-par writer, especially for such a contentious topic.
There should be enough actually academic Zionist scholars to cite anyway, so I don't feel we'd be at much of a loss not using him.
...And, I seem to've typed out another wall of text, sorry for that. Also, apologies to Valjean for having my words clutter your page. Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:17, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a ridiculous assumption that because you couldn't personally verify something, you believe that is evidence that Troy doesn't fact check his sources and is a sub-par writer. He's an academic and a respected published author and historian. Andre🚐 01:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well if I can't verify the claim, and he doesn't cite anything, its validity should be considered questionable. He's also an American presidential historian, not a Zionist historian (should've brought that up earlier), so his academic credentials are unrelated to his activism.
Are you going to acknowledge anything else that I wrote? Also, should we take this to a different page as to not further bother Valjean? Butterscotch Beluga (talk) 01:59, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I'd rather drop it. You haven't made any reasonable arguments. Troy is a historian of Zionism as well as other types of history. If Valjean wants to respond to any of this, he can, or not. I was responding to something Valjean wrote, as far as I know there isn't any editing issue that you and I have to discuss. Valjean is one of my friends here. But I unfortunately found a lot of problems with the recent statement he made on Zionism. I do not think I could find common ground with you on this, and you've done little to disabuse me of that. Troy is reliable, but I also haven't at any time cited anything to him in an article. If I ever do and you revert that, we can discuss it then, until then, I don't think we have anything to discuss further right now. Andre🚐 03:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind you holding your conversation here. I'm learning from it! Andre, please explain what problems you found with my comments. I'm sure I can learn more. My opinion there is neither my full POV (whatever the fuck that might be!) nor necessarily well-informed, hence my desire to hear your opinion. (It would also help me to know your background. Jewish?... or use email) I have a pathologically insatiable desire to always be learning, hence my love for editing here and watching Jeopardy!. (Feel free to improve my article Strategies and skills of Jeopardy! champions.) -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:18, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's been a matter of public record on wiki so I don't mind saying that my great-grandparents came to America fleeing the pogroms in the Russian Empire and Eastern Europe. I tend not to agree with my more right-wing family members but most American Jews are quite progressive and believe it's OK to criticize the current right-wing government of Israel and the high civilian death tolls. It's also the case that Hamas uses human shields and puts hostages in civilian areas or with journalists or military installations in hospitals. There are many problematic tropes and misinformation, such as those who accuse Israel of intentionally trying to wipe out the Palestinian population, a population that has only continued to grow, nothing like the Holocaust during which 6 million Jews were killed and the population still hasn't recovered. Arab citizens in Israel can vote, own land, and serve in the parliament. Most of the Jewish population of Israel, only about half of which is European, went there because they had nowhere else to go after persecution in Europe and the Middle East/North African areas that became inhospital and expelled or otherwise persecuted their Jews in the aftermath of 1948. The US did not accept many Jewish refugees in the 1930s and 1940s. That doesn't mean the Palestinian refugees didn't also in many cases get a raw deal and it's fair to criticize the West Bank settlers that often flout international law and exist an extralegal area. Still, on 10/7, Hamas unprovoked invaded Israeli territory attacking and slaughtering civilians. Hezbollah has also been launching rockets into Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself and it has a right to exist within the historical borders that the entire international community voted for and ratified. Believing in that doesn't mean condoning ethnocentrism or ethnically targeted policy. Unfortunately, that was a reality for many places including the United States especially in the 1930s and earlier. There is also a progressive left in Israel and it's a country that has given us many medical and technological advances, not to mention a permissive and tolerant, and democratic culture. The portrayal of the country as a colonial oppressor similar to South Africa is not apt. Andre🚐 05:36, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We agree. The whole situation is just so sad. Why can't people get along? Ask Isaac and Ishmael! It started with them, and their descendants are doomed to always be at war. To complicate matters, the state of Israel is also used as a pawn in international political intrigues and is used as a proxy, whether it likes it or not. The specter of Armageddon always hangs over the region. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:49, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's global chess games, and unfortunately there is collateral damage and innocents in the crossfire. All we can do is try to educate and deradicalize people. Sadly, a lot of our current day progressives have forgotten some of the important and hard-won lessons. Andre🚐 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On a different topic, what about the Asian News International vs. Wikimedia Foundation mess? What is to prevent Trump from doing the same and going after any editors here who include anything negative in his articles? We have about two months before our freedoms can get attacked, so we should enjoy this respite. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 05:54, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely don't defame anyone onwiki. I agree. It's a worrisome development. But also, I think I'm a 2024 truther.[3] Let's see the final counts and any cured mail-in ballots. Biden wasn't declared winner in 2020 until Saturday. The numbers were so far off from the polls such as the Seltzer poll in Iowa, and DeJoy is still postmaster. Trump always projects and accuses his opponents of what he's guilty of. But you'll notice nobody has mentioned "stopping the steal" or any rigged ballot counts in the last 36 hours. Andre🚐 05:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting stuff. The election needs to play out and be curated. It needs a complete and thorough post mortem. I have a hard time believing that the Russians, who fully penetrated most electoral systems in most states, didn't use that knowledge to benefit Trump this time around. That makes no sense, so they likely did have a finger or two in the works somewhere. Being as dishonest as he is, I'm always suspicious of him. He would be a failure, by his own standards, if he missed a chance to cheat, and even though he is a huge failure in just about every area of life, cheating is one area where he excels. This was just too "clean". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:39, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Signpost: 6 November 2024

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Please sign the Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation

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Wikipedia:2024 open letter to the Wikimedia Foundation -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 18:16, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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