User talk:Elrith/Archive03

Diacritics

Hello Elrith. Please stop & revert what you're doing to those NHL articles. You're unraveling a WikiProject compromise, that took months to reach. GoodDay (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It's your compromise, not mine. I don't see where in Wikipedia's policies and guidelines it says that decisions made by a couple of people calling themselves a "Wikiproject" become binding on everyone. So no, I won't stop and revert, because you're spelling people's names wrong and it's nonsense. Elrith (talk) 00:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Then you're being disruptive & disrespectful of the WikiProject. That compromise was agreed to by both pro-diacritics editors & pro-English editors. We've been happy with the arrangment & now you threaten to undo it all? Very unfortunate. GoodDay (talk) 00:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not part of your WikiProject, so I don't care what your "compromise" is. Also, you might want to educate yourself as to what a diacritic is. There are no diacritics in Teemu Selänne's name. Also, you're not exactly living up to your compromise. Over the last ten minutes or so, User:Maxim reverted my edits to NHL player pages and international hockey competition pages, where your "compromise" allegedly allows "diacritics". So why should I respect your project compromises when you don't live by them either? Elrith (talk) 00:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Then Maxim is wrong, diacritics (or whatever ya call them) are supported in International hockey articles, by the WikiProject (the compromise calls for diacritics in Non-North American hockey related articles & none in North American hockey articles; yes the very compromise you don't care about). Check ou the compromise, before you critize it. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The guideline is not to use diacritics/accents whatever you call them, in North American topics. That's my basis for the reverts. I only revert the North American stuff. Maxim_(talk) 00:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

And sorry, yeah, I made one mistake. Maxim_(talk) 00:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I disagree over who needs to be checking their guidelines. From Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format:

(edit conflict) I don't see a good reason as to why to not use them. My surname has diacritics and I use my proper name here in Canada. Why should North American media be given more weight than "foreign" media. You're just purging Wikipedia of proper spelling because you happen to not like and don't understand the diacritics. Your argument about media is paper thin, because if you check out reliable sources from the player's home country then they spell the name with diacritics, these sources should be given more encyclopedic weight as they are in the original language that pretty much shows you how the name is spelled. The Dominator (talk) 15:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

"Diacritics

Diacritics shall be applied to all the player pages (that require them)."

How about you guys re-read your own project pages? Or maybe there's a compromise somewhere other than your Wikiproject page?

Be that as it may, I don't care what your so-called compromise is. Your Wikiproject has no authority to start making Wikipedia rules and policies on its own, no matter how much you call it a "compromise". Elrith (talk) 00:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Then if I be so bold to ask, who has the authority to make Wikipedia rules and policies? Maxim_(talk) 00:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, for heaven's sake! Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is the help page, accessible right through the "Help" link in the sidebar. If you guys are this confused, no wonder there are edit wars. Elrith (talk) 00:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I know who makes rules, I'm an admin ;-), I merely inquired whether you knew, as you seem to not know. Maxim_(talk) 00:39, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Gee Wheez, a workable compromise, put together by both sides & now it's about to be thrown down the drain. GoodDay (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean, "both sides"? I had nothing to do with this compromise, and like I said, I'm going to continue to ignore it. Since Maxim is an admin, and unlike me, knows all about Wikipedia rules and policies, I'm sure you guys can handle yourself. If you'll excuse me, I have a hockey game to watch. Elrith (talk) 00:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, I didn't know you were the only editor who supported diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is the opposite. Your "compromise" is a compromise between some Wikipedia editors, which is totally different from all or even most Wikipedia editors. As such, I see it solely as an agreement between you and some other people. It isn't in any way binding on me. Elrith (talk) 00:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Our compromise also calls for the usage of diacritics on all NHL bio pages (where required). So yes, they're allowed on articles like Dean Lombardi & Phil Kessel. But not on (for example) the NHL trophy pages. GoodDay (talk) 00:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Good. So perhaps Maxim will kindly refrain from removing "diacritics" from NHL player and other bio pages in the future? Like he told me, he is, after all, an admin, and knows all about rules. Elrith (talk) 01:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Very well, I'll inform Maxim. Also, I'm sorry for growling at you (earlier). In the spirit of the WikiProject & coloboration in general - will you abide be the compromise? PS: If you have any complaints, bring them to the WikiProject first. GoodDay (talk) 01:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the apology, but as for the compromise, no. I'm not going to accept it. Quite frankly, I find the sentiment you express on your user page to be very offensive; you oppose "diacritics" on Wikipedia because you're opposed to the way Ľubomír Višňovský's name is spelled? I think that's disgusting. Elrith (talk) 03:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Relax. It's not that we oppose how names are spelled, it's that in the best case it won't change our pronunciation, and in the worst case, it'll confuse the reader. Keep in mind not everyone understands what those accents are supposed to mean, and we have to cater to international English-speaking audiences.-Wafulz (talk) 04:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the way I read GoodDay's user page, he says the reason he's opposed to "diacritics" is Ľubomír Višňovský. How do you want me to understand that? Also, it may not change your pronounciation, but it may shock you that for some people, knowing whether a person is called Backström or Bäckström makes a vital difference to how they pronounce their name. Anyway, what kind of a reason for removing information is it that "not everyone understands" it? I don't understand what all the diacritics and similar marks on Ľubomír Višňovský mean either, but that doesn't mean I want it removed! Elrith (talk) 04:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

My point was that for some names, like Ľubomír, it can actually mislead readers. For example, they may start spelling it L'ubomir. Additionally, if someone is copying an article into, say, a word processor, characters may change or disappear. Some browsers, such as mobile browsers, might not support the characters (though I don't know if that's a huge issue anymore). I'm just trying to highlight that the rationale isn't just "it's different and I don't like it".-Wafulz (talk) 04:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I was only talking about one user's reasons, not yours or anyone else's. I'm far too familiar with this discussion and I'm aware of the arguments. I think all the reasons you've given are very poor. Removing diacritics is removing fairly vital information, i.e. how a person's name is spelled correctly, and I do not approve of it. Elrith (talk) 04:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Well Elrith? If you won't abide by the compromise & Djsasso & Krm500 won't change the rules & allow me to hide the 'diacritics' from the NHL team articles 'current roster' sections (thus creating a 50/50 split)? There's no hope for harmony among us. If your side (pro-diacritics) are gonna be inflexible on this issue? It's best I walk away from the Ice hockey articles. If it's no longer fun for me? then I'm only ruining it for others. Cheers. GoodDay (talk) 15:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

PS: You've broken me. Diacritize all the hockey articles, if you want. GoodDay (talk) 16:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

No, there is absolutely no hope for harmony, as I'm not going to ever accept a Wikipedia policy of misspelling European players' names simply because some North American editors find the way they spell their names annoying. I'm happy if you've chosen to no longer pursue this ridiculous line of argument. Elrith (talk) 01:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Re-open the debate

I have no problem with using diacritics in articles; actually, I think it is better to include them. (My recent revert of yours was to respect the agreed-upon compromise.) I would suggest you re-open the debate at the project talk page. Even though you don't consider yourself part of the project (nor do I), you clearly still have a stake in NHL-related articles, otherwise you wouldn't be trying so hard. The other option seems to be to continue your edits and continue having project members revert these edits or harass you. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I've already been involved in the debate and I'm not interested in reopening it. A Wikiproject isn't the right place for a debate like this anyway, and I'm under no obligation to respect a consensus that's been agreed on by, it seems, some half a dozen editors. I pick the "continue my edits" option. Elrith (talk) 03:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to suggest to you that there's no reason to go along with a Wikiproject consensus, which doesn't reflect wider Wikipedia consensus (which is in favor of diacritics), especially when that consensus is so manifestly stupid. If you agree that it's better to spell Selänne than Selanne, then you're not helping anyone by reverting my edits. Elrith (talk) 03:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

It was only a suggestion, not a demand, and there was absolutely no hostile intention behind it. Why are you being so mean-spirited toward me? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:27, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean-spirited. I just don't see much hope for achieving a rational solution, because I'm arguing against a totally irrational opinion. Elrith (talk) 20:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Elrith, save that attitude for me. Since we're the extremist in this topic. Giggle, giggle. GoodDay (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought you gave up. Elrith (talk) 21:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Show some humour, man. Geez. GoodDay (talk) 21:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

PS: I haven't given up on eradicating English Wikipedia of those 'sqigglies etc'. I'm still active at Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English). I just don't edit Ice Hockey articles anymore. GoodDay (talk) 21:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I've just noticed this debate after Elrith added diacritics (quite rightfully so) to Jaromír Jágr's name at the Prague Spring article. What is the debate about? His name is Jaromír Jágr, his name isn't Jaromir Jagr, simple as that. Maybe you should realize that those "squigglies" actually change the pronunciation significantly. The Dominator (talk) 03:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

This started two years ago at Ice hockey, when a certain editor got angry over "non-English diacritics" and started a crusade to rid Wikipedia ice hockey articles of "diacritics". There was a big fight over Teemu Selänne, Antero Niittymäki and Jaromír Jágr. Many of us have been making the same point you just did, and a vocal minority of editors keep changing Jaromír Jágr to Jaromir Jagr. Their basic argument is that since North American media doesn't spell European names correctly out of ignorance, Wikipedia must conform to the North American media. Frankly, they seem to think the English-language Wikipedia is the property of North American English-speaking editors, and we're trying to introduce something foreign to their wholesome American encyclopedia. See User:GoodDay's comments above and elsewhere on "squigglies" and so on. The Wikiproject on ice hockey has decided among some half-a-dozen editors on a set of arcane rules that they can't agree on themselves and call it a consensus.

Wikipedia held a vote on the topic some years ago and decided diacritics will be used in Wikipedia. The current attempt to subvert that is at Wikipedia: Naming conventions (use English). Elrith (talk) 20:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Terrible, not to mention the fact that there are certain English words that have diacritics so that's not a valid argument. American media, American media have pronounced Jágr's name as "Jagger", that doesn't make it correct. The Dominator (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

After years of Tei-mu Seh-lah-neh, I can't help but agree. I'm used to North American media ignoring diacritics and pronouncing names completely wrong, but I can't stomach the idea that Wikipedia needs to be purged of these "foreign" characters, or as GoodDay condescendingly calls them, "squiggles". It's just pure bigotry by North American users. Unfortunately, this being Wikipedia, it's going to be ages before this is resolved one way or the other. I authored a policy proposal for Finnish proper names at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish); you can take a look at the talk page to see what kind of reception that got. Elrith (talk) 00:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, let me know if there's ever a big debate on the subject, I'd be happy to pitch in. The Dominator (talk) 14:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the debate needs to be here on your page. :-) Let me first say that I am not opposed to the use of the correct spelling of an individual or a place name. We will have to tackle that as the world gets smaller...

That said, I have several problems with adding the accents, etc. at this time:

1. We are introducing an uncommon spelling. I don't believe that I have ever seen Mr. Jágr spelled that way in the English media. We probably should confine the Jágr spelling to his personal page.

2. I don't believe that the use of foreign characters is understood by English-trained individuals. Personally, I have no knowledge of what ä is pronounced like, and of course, it could be used differently in different languages. At best, they are ignored, at worst they irritate people. Is there anything positive being accomplished?

3. Is Jágr in Czech pronounced the same as the French Jágr?

4. Is it being done in a standardized, objective way? Are we sure that we are following the correct birth documents and official documents? Are we following what the individual wishes or uses themselves?

5. I don't think that spelling Selänne implies an insult to Teemu, or is demeaning, or is necessarily bigoted. I don't know where that comes from, and we all need to get over that. My father changed his name when he moved to England, and I have a different familial name than my paternal relatives in Poland. While it is regrettable that he probably had to do so, in the practical sense it was a good idea. His familial name used a character 'Ł' that is completely unknown in English, and changes the pronunciation completely to be similar to that of the English 'W'. So, for his happiness, he changed it. Should he have tried to correct everyone that came his way? I don't think he ever regretted it. And I don't think that Teemu is having any problems either.

I think that being as stubborn as the eds who dislike them is not an accomplishment. From your comments, I think you are ticked off at certain individuals, and are pursuing a path that will not lead to a positive result, and is probably just frustrating to everyone. I think that useful dialogue is much better. Of course, we need it from --both sides--. Cheers! :-) Alaney2k (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

To reply:

1. Why should an international, English-language Wikipedia regard spellings in the American and Canadian media as primary, and everything else as secondary? Teemu Selänne is a Finnish person; the way his name is spelled is perfectly clear. From that point of view, Selanne is an uncommon and new spelling. The way I see it, the idea that diacriticals and Finnish & Scandinavian letters need to be removed and changed, respectively, is introducing a new spelling.

It seems to me that there is an insistence that Teemu Selänne's primary identity is as an NHL player, so his name needs to be spelled the way it is spelled in North American media. In my mind, it's equally possible, if not in fact more cogent, to argue that he is first and foremost a Finnish person with a Finnish name, and in that case the way his Finnish name is spelled has primacy over the way North American media choose to spell his name. After all, to a Finn, Americans are foreigners!

2. I don't believe I understand very many advanced mathematical articles on Wikipedia. At best, I ignore them, at worst, they might irritate me, although I don't understand where that comes from. There is something positive being accomplished, though, because if I want to know about that topic, I can. I won't lobby to have it removed just because I don't understand it. And certainly, the knowledge whether Christian Bäckman's name is Christian Bäckman or Backman carries vital information on how his name is pronounced to anyone who speaks Swedish. Something positive is being accomplished when I can tell how to pronounce a person's name when I read it on an encyclopedia. Just because you can't speak Swedish, why do you want to deny me that information?

3. I have no idea. I don't speak Czech.

4. The spellings of Finnish names are consistent and clear in all documentation produced in Finland; there are absolutely no ambiguities. I don't think it's practical to go and ask all NHL players how they want Wikipedia to spell their names.

5. There is a huge amount of bigotry involved in this discussion which I find very offensive. This discussion started some two years ago at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format, with this edit: [1], in which User:Masterhatch says "Those non english accents are driving me nuts.". I've tried to advance the viewpoint that removing diacriticals and changing Finnish and Swedish spellings to new "English" ones is simply wrong; there are accepted ways to translate Finnish and English, and it is not acceptable to change ä to a or change ö to o. I got replies like this: [2]. I still get personal attacks: [3]

From my point of view, this whole conflict started when a group of Wikiproject: Ice Hockey editors started a crusade to rid Wikipedia of "foreign" spellings. Therefore, from my point of view, when you say I'm suggesting "adding" accents, you're wrong. There were plenty of diacriticals on this Wikipedia and in the hockey articles before this crusade started. I find this anti-foreign crusade bigoted and disrespectful, and I find the idea that Selanne is good but Selänne is not useful and annoying frankly ridiculous.

Also, I had to start this Wikipedia session by reverting some ten edits by User:Dorvaq who interprets the policy at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey/Player pages format that says all player pages will use diacriticals to mean that player pages will not use diacriticals. I'd like to point out that the anti-diacritical faction doesn't respect the Wikiproject compromise either. As an example, see this edit: [4]

So why should I participate in a Wikiproject when its members don't respect compromises that the Wikiproject agrees on? And why should I be nice and reasonable to people when I have my person mocked and am myself treated disrespectfully? Elrith (talk) 13:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Having calmed down & regain control of my temper, I'm willing to discuss 'Hockey articles' again (but still not editing them). Elrith, we need to haggle - It seems to me that, since diacritics are allowed on North American player biographies? diacritics should be completely removed/hidden on North American team articles (including the NHL)? Whatya say? 50/50? GoodDay (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I consider your proposal ridiculous. Any idea that a person's name needs to be spelled in a certain way in certain places and a different way in different places makes a total mockery of the idea of an encyclopedia. Elrith (talk) 13:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that proposal was shot down quick. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Look at those Russian players. We can't spell their names either in our alphabet. Alaney2k (talk) 15:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I don't see a good reason as to why to not use them. My surname has diacritics and I use my proper name here in Canada. Why should North American media be given more weight than "foreign" media. You're just purging Wikipedia of proper spelling because you happen to not like and don't understand the diacritics. Your argument about media is paper thin, because if you check out reliable sources from the player's home country then they spell the name with diacritics, these sources should be given more encyclopedic weight as they are in the original language that pretty much shows you how the name is spelled. The Dominator (talk) 15:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not want to eliminate the use of diacritics. Please don't push for the elimination of the english spelling. Since there are two spellings in use, we should show both. Alaney2k (talk) 15:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You know, Al is trying to build a bridge between both sides of the dios issue. We all can at least show some appreciation for his efforts. GoodDay (talk) 16:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

A couple of points:

1. Russian is written in the Cyrillic alphabet, which is entirely different from the Latin alphabet. Therefore, there are rules in place that govern how names written in Cyrillic are transliterated into Latin alphabets. English, Swedish, Finnish, Czech and Slovak all use the Latin alphabet, with various extensions. Therefore Russian names are treated differently from Finnish or Czech ones.

2. This "English spelling" is only the product of the North American media not bothering to use diacritics. The names of Finns or Czechs are, respectively, Finnish or Czech, not English. Names in other languages only have an accepted English spelling if there is an exonym for them; for example, Copenhagen (which is spelled København in Danish). There is no exonym for Teemu Selänne.

If you look at some of the Google results I posted at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish), you'll find that overall, the Finnish spellings are, in fact, commonly used and the "English" ones are not. NHL players are a special case only because the league refuses to use their native spellings.

I'm not pushing for eliminating any kind of spelling; I'm pushing for not eliminating vital information as to how people's names are pronounced. However, I don't think there's any point in your idea of adding "English" spellings to articles. Those aren't legitimate spellings of those people's names, and I think it's totally trite and a waste of time to write Teemu Selänne (en: Teemu Selanne).

I should re-state that I've written a policy proposal the last time this subject came up, which should still exist: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Finnish). That's still my stand on the issue. Elrith (talk) 05:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Elrith... It's happening again...! *frustration* Hazelorb (talk) 17:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, here we go *again*. It will never cease to amaze me how many people get angry when they see ¨. If you can get something done arbitration-wise, then more power to you! I don't find myself on Wikipedia regularly enough to be ready to go through all the motions. I'd be very happy if this could be resolved somehow, as I can't help feeling that the only people who are powerfully opposed to diacritics and Finnish letters are a small, vocal and rude minority on WP:HOCKEY. Elrith (talk) 05:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep 'here we go again'; it's called collaboration. I've request to Dj (at his page) the following: Keep dios off of all North American hockey player & team pages & keep dios on all Non-North American hockey player & team pages (this is how the compromise was suppose to be). I've also suggested that 'you' police the Non NA hockey articles & I police the NA hockey articles, to make the deal stick. It's worth a try. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

My surname contains the letters š (pronounced sh) and (í) (ee) and I would be highly offended if people were saying that the right way to spell my name is by dropping the accents. This sickens me, how would you feel if I said, I don't like the spelling of your name because it's confusing, so I'm going to change it. You are being intolerant, disrespectful, and even hateful by attempting to change somebody's name. The Dominator (talk) 23:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If somebody showed me a Swedish or Finnish newspaper with my name in it or say my name was at Swedish or Finnish Wikipedia? It wouldn't trouble me in the least how it was spelt. PS- Intolorent? disrespectful? hateful? Aren't you using 'strong words' here (not to mention bordering on personal attacks). The strongest words I've used against pro-dios are 'stubborn' & 'inflexiable'. GoodDay (talk) 00:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Elrith is correct, anyways. There's no hope for harmony on the diacritics. I hope nobody takes these disputes personally. Afterall, none of us have ever met each other in person. So how could we dislike each other? GoodDay (talk) 01:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't dislike you, I just feel strongly against your opinion. OK, I'll take back the hateful, I still consider anybody who opposes diacritics to be either intolerant and disrespectful or ignorant of other cultures and languages. The Dominator (talk) 01:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Both sides have strong feelings about diacritics on English Wikipedia. I don't edit hockey articles anymore (because of dios on NHL team articles), so I suppose that'll lower the tension some (on the hockey articles anyway). PS: Thanks for not dislikeing me. GoodDay (talk) 01:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't believe I've ever said this in my life but: We'll just have to agree to disagree. The Dominator (talk) 04:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Diacritics

Ok! — Dorvaq (talk) 14:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Another diacritics section

I hope we don't have any remaining animosity left between us. With some events that came shortly after our first encounter, I've really started to lean towards pro-diacritics. Grsz 11 07:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Certainly not! I know not everyone will believe me, but it does take some doing before I take a Wikipedia dispute personally. No hard feelings at all, as far as I'm concerned. Elrith (talk) 17:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

You're dislike of Sidney Crosby, however, is unacceptable. Grsz 11 17:27, 9 March 2008 (UTC)