User talk:Elonka/Archive 10

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Hajj

Hi Elonka, could you add a source to your recent edit on this article please. Thanks. → AA ^(talk) — 20:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course.  :) I was actually on my way to do that earlier today, but then got called away. It'll be up soon.  :) --Elonka 23:14, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Just weary of useful edits being removed. Nice work on the article. → AA ^(talk) — 09:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Pictures of Old Cairo

I'm glad you liked the mosque picture, I took it a couple of years ago on my trip to Egypt. I had no idea what the mosque was called until I saw the DYK article; when I saw the article come up, I recognized the interior immediately and remembered I had a shot of the entrance!

Alas, I don't really have much else that isn't already documented on Wikipedia. But I hope to see some good articles on old Cairo come up, and one thing I am interested in is this: It is often asserted that the outer casing stones of the Giza pyramids were taken down in the middle ages to build the mosques and other buildings of Cairo, and I would be interested to see if any actual buildings containing some of these pyramid blocks still survive. Jeff Dahl 15:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I noticed you

And you seem to be a consensus builder and from what I read about you here my respect has grown. Maybe you could take a look at a revert conflict or get some other uninterested but experienced wikipedians to look at the conflict at the Talk:EVE_Online page. The majority of the discussion is on my User talk:Alatari page per User:Richard Slater's suggestion. I have also asked about this on the Wikipedia talk:External links page and the Wikipedia:Help desk. My final post on the Talk:EVE_Online page is harsh but I strongly suspect bad faith dealings. Alatari 10:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Citations

An editor seems to be frustrated at the lack of citations in your recent expansion of the Fustat article. See the comment at Wikipedia:Help_desk#An_editor_who_sometimes_doesn.27t_use_inline_citations. I left a link to a reference that I think would be useful at that help desk discussion. Hopefully you can work together to improve the referencing in the article. Happy editing :-). Sancho 04:52, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

RS2007

Hello Elonka! How are you? Will you try again for adminship? Please let me know. I will support you. Thank you, RS2007 04:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

External links in Aaron Proctor

Hello Elonka. I saw where you reverted one of the links I removed from Aaron Proctor. No problem whatsoever, but would you mind terribly if I moved it to the "External links" section? I guess it just rubs me the wrong way to have the campaign website listed under "References". Please let me know what you think and thanks so much for your time. -- Satori Son 16:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing, and done.  :) --Elonka 16:55, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Broadwater Farm

Would you be willing to take a second look as Broadwater Farm? I've done some slight rewriting as per your comments. As regards the individual points you raise:

• Remove some of the redlinks

I disagree with this; the only things that are redlinked are named geographic locations and individuals who undoubtedly pass WP:N but just haven't had the articles written yet (an undoubtedly notable author, a professional author and some people who were involved in a major legal case (which I've redirected them to for the present)

• Give it another good copyediting pass. There are several run-on sentences, or sentences with duplicated words.

I can't see what you're referring to here - some of the sentences are long, but I think breaking them up would make them less readable. The only examples I can find of duplication of words are things like "walkways at first floor level known as the deck level", where both uses of the word are required

• Don't start multiple paragraphs with the same words.

Addressed

• Ensure that references come after punctuation, not before.

Standardised; while I disagree with this policy when used in British English (see discussion on the article talk page) I've applied it throughout for consistency as other editors do follow it

• Avoid parenthetical statements. Just put them in the main text.

Not sure what you're referring to here; I could only find three in the entire article, two of which I've got rid of and the third of which I feel is necessary

• The different sizes of images is a bit distracting. Many should be more consistent, perhaps 250px

While most of them are set as default thumbnails, some are deliberately in forced size; there are comments in hidden text beside each place where I've done this, to explain why in each case. This is either because they have extreme aspect ratios (such as the panorama views) or have detail which would be lost at smaller size (such as the labelling on the map). I've not forced widths at any point for reasons not specifically allowed under WP style guidelines. I agree that it looks messy, but can't see a way round it short of deleting the images, and I don't think there's a single image on it as it stands that doesn't add to the usefulness of the article, since each is to illustrate a specific point, aside from the labelled panorama view which I think is necessary to show the layout of the estate (since the architecture plays such a significant part in the events of 1985).

• There are too many subsections, some with only a couple sentences. Try to combine them into more general topics.

This one I disagree with (I know I agree on the talk page, but I've given it further consideration); I don't think there are any unnecessary subsections in the "History" section, since each relates to a discrete period of history, and without the division into subsections the "Facilities" section would be ridiculously long. The facilities section is, I feel, necessary to indicate the dramatic changes to facilities in recent years.

• Ensure that the lead is a good summary of the entire article, per WP:LEAD.

I can't see the problem here as to me that's what it seems to do. (Empty land -> ambitious building project -> social problems -> riot -> rebuilt and area improves.) The "did have a high crime rate/now has a low one" in my opinion warrants being in the lead section, as so much of the history of the area relates to the cause of & responses to its historically high crime rate

If you're too busy, or you think there are any further problems, let me know; of all the articles I've written this is probably the one I'm most pleased with, despite its somewhat obscure nature, and I'd like to get it onto the GA list so others are more likely to improve it further (I've taken it as far as I can, I think) — iridescent (talk to me!) 16:24, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Zenlike

		Zen Garden Award for Infinite Patience
		A little birdie told me that you maybe could use a lift. You've kept your head through recent events a lot better than I would have, and you haven't let it drive you away from editing. Looking forward to seeing you at Hacking 201 again this year! LaMenta3 20:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• Heh, I'm not sure who you are, but thanks for the kind words.  :) And yes, I'm looking forward to Dragon*Con too! The car's partially packed now, and I should be hitting the road later tonight, for the 10-hour drive from St. Louis to Atlanta. Definitely come up and say hello (and this goes for anyone else reading this who may be going to Dragon*Con too). I'm also giving a talk about Wikipedia on Monday at 11:30 a.m.,[1] and hope you can make it. Some of my jokes may only be funny to those who know the culture.  ;) So the more Wikipedians there, the better!  :) --Elonka 22:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• Ah, yes...I forget that I'm quiet...I'm a guerrilla editor. :) I'm Disavian's girlfriend. LaMenta3 14:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dragon*Con

WikiThanks

Thanks for your presentation at Dragon*Con. Hopefully we got a few more new editors to join us with a headstart on understanding the community here, or at least helped some occasional editors who had a poor welcome to understand Wikipedia a bit more. Great job! - Fordan (talk) 21:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - I really enjoyed it. At some point I'll have to give you my suggestions for your Top 10 list. ;) -- Satori Son 00:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Glad you liked it! And as for the top 10, yes, I'd like to further improve it. I've got a scratch copy at User:Elonka/Top-10. Feel free to go in and edit.  :) --Elonka 01:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Templars in Scotland

Hi there - I don't know if you are still feeling a little sore about your RfA, but you certainly throw a great party. Feel free to invite me to the next one.

Have you ever been to Scotland? I was wandering home recently through Kilmartin Glen when I came across the following statement: “The swords shown on many of the stones refer to warrior (or, more broadly, social) status, and have no connection with the Templars or other medieval military orders, as is sometimes suggested.” I am not much of a history person, but even I am aware of the supposed Kilmartin-Templar connection. I slapped a fact tag on it and left a message on the Talk page, but if anyone is watching they are asleep. If you or any of your Templar chums have anything to add the wiki-gnomes would appreciate it. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:32, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Pictures Kaaba

As per your request I have uploaded another picture.

Date I think, 6th Jan 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Muhammad Mahdi Karim (talk • contribs) 12:53, September 6, 2007

Both taken on same day. The times are available on the picture page under meta details. Feel free to upload them to commons.Muhammad Mahdi Karim 17:59, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Mongols in Syria

I wished to refer you to User:PHG but, since you seem to be in dispute with him, you will be well-served to get a third opinion from User:Adam Bishop (on medieval Palestine) and User:Latebird (on the Mongols). I suppose User:Briangotts and User:Srnec may be interested in commenting as well. --Ghirla^-трёп- 20:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Franco-Mongol alliance

Hi Elonka. I appreciate your point that de Molay's campaigns in the Holy Land in 1299-1300 may not have happened, but would you mind clarifying the sources for that? I also respect your addition to the caption of the 1299 painting of the capture of Jerusalem as being fanciful ("This fanciful depiction was commissioned in the 1800s, but is about an event in 1299 that did not actually occur".), but would you mind giving sources for this statement? Regards PHG 20:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka. My two main sources on this subject are "Histoires des Croisades", René Grousset, and "A History of the Crusades", Steven Runciman. They are both crystal clear and very specific about the Franco-Mongol alliance, and the article pretty much reflects their content. I was forgetting also several of the 13th century sources (Le Templier de Tyr, Hayton, the travels of Bar Sauma etc...), which are accessible online and extensively quoted in the article. By the way, I am not an expert on the Crusades period, so any new information on this subject is appreciated. Regards, PHG 21:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, not I am not on IRC. As you will see, the Molay part is patched from various sources, and I wish I had some stronger reference to it (I ordered a few days ago a Molay biography from the French specialist of the field, so I should have better information there). Also on the involvement of the Templars in joint campaigns with the Mongols, you at least have Le Templier de Tyr (quoted in the article with online original):

"That year [1300], a message came to Cyprus from Ghazan, king of the Tatars, saying that he would come during the winter, and that he wished that the Frank join him in Armenia (...) Amalric of Lusignan, Constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, arrived in November (...) and brought with him 300 knights, and as many or more of the Templars and Hospitallers (...) In February a great admiral of the Tatars, named Cotlesser, came to Antioch with 60,000 horsemen, and requested the visit of the king of Armenia, who came with Guy of Ibelin, Count of Jaffa, and John, lord of Giblet. And when they arrived, Cotelesse told them that Ghazan had met great trouble of wind and cold on his way. Cotlesse raided the land from Haleppo to La Chemelle, and returned to his country without doing more". —Le Templier de Tyre, Chap 620-622

Going to bed now. Regards, PHG 21:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think we're getting closer.  :) I've posted some quotes from my own sources at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#The Trial of the Templars. --Elonka 21:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Mongols and such

You may wish to take a look at The Mongols in the Islamic Lands: Studies in the History of the Ilkhanate by Reuven Amitai. The following may also be helpful:

The Mongols by Jeremiah Curtin The Mongols by David Morgan Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World by Jack Weatherford

--Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I have the Weatherford book at home and will take a look if there's anything germane to the topic. The other two are searchable on Amazon.com. You may have luck finding useful bits in The Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades by Jonathan Riley-Smith or Genghis Khan: Life, Death, and Resurrection by John Man, which are also searchable on Amazon.

The one you really want is the Amitai book, from what I've heard. Unfortunately, I don't have access to it. It just came out last month- you may be able to find a copy or may be able to get it through loan if you have access to a good academic library. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 18:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Tawaf

Answering your question.

It was people preforming tawaaf, (either nisaa, ziyarat, or wida) during the hajj season. Tawaaf Nisaa is part of Hajj for Shiites and I believe Tawaaf Ziyarat is obligatory for Sunnis as part of Hajj. Muhammad Mahdi Karim 13:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Franco-Mongol alliance

Hi Elonka. I like your image of the microcosm, and I am really glad that Wikipedia allows us to explore this amazing, and unlikely, area of Templar-Mongol interaction. Thank you for your nice and pleasant (most of the time:)) contributions. Best regards.PHG 23:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

PS:I sent you a Wikimail, which should give you my address. PHG 23:15, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

RFA nomination

Pat^{Politics rule!} 23:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thank you very much, but I fear it's much too soon since my last nomination. I'd like to give things at least a couple more months before trying again. Therefore, I must respectfully decline. --Elonka 23:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I am disapointed, but I respect your choice. Please let me know if someone nominates you, cause I would love to nominate, or co.nom. you!! =) Pat^{Politics rule!} 23:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Will do! And thanks again.  :) --Elonka 23:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The page "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Elonka3" has been added to your watchlist, which will list edits to this page and its associated talk page. I'll be waiting, Elonka! ^Ariel♥Gold 01:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Me too! — Timotab ^{Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!)} 01:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Pauline Fowler rewrite

Hey Elonka. I'm not sure if your still interested in working on the Pauline Fowler article, but I've now rewritten it per all the suggestions on the talk page. All the storylines section has been cut, and i've included them all in the development section, which is now written in an OOU fashion throughout. We'd like to try and have a go at FA with it again. It would be good to hear what you think of the rewrite at some point :) Gungadin♦ 18:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Jerusalem 1299

Dear Elonka, all I write is referenced, there is no original there. On the contrary, I think you need to bring some specific reference to your claim that the Mongols did not take Jerusalem in 1299, because all references that I have (extensively quoted) indicate that they did. Best regards PHG 21:40, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

PHG, multiple other editors at Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance are disagreeing with your interpretation of the sources. And I invite anyone else who cares to comment, to please participate. --Elonka 22:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

For your 'top ten'...

Just stumbled across your 'top ten' (via the AfD for StankDawg where we seem to hold opposing viewpoints ;) ), and enjoyed it. It may be a tad cynical, but I thought "Take Ignore all rules at face value" might make a possible addition?

Regards, EyeSerene^TALK 22:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Thanks, and yes, feel free to add it to the list.  :) --Elonka 22:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've added a couple of others as well ;) EyeSerene^TALK 11:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

RHC

Hi Elonka, thanks for creating the Recueil des historiens des croisades article. I had been meaning to create it myself but I never got around to it! Adam Bishop 09:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that website can be pretty convenient, although I find it very difficult to use...my university library has a set of the 1967 reprints, which are much easier to work with (I have spent many long days where sitting alone in the library with various volumes spread out across the table!). Adam Bishop 21:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I was in St. Louis for a conference a couple of years ago. I never made it to the library though. That's okay about the crusade articles, I have been meaning to add sources to them too...my latest project is to add full references to the Kingdom of Jerusalem article, although I have so much to do in real life that I can never get around to it. I have MSN if you use that (just send me a Wikipedia e-mail and I can give you my real e-mail address). Adam Bishop 22:32, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Century Council

Hi Elonka- Please let me know if more third party references are needed for the Century Council entry. Thanks.David Justin 13:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Chronique du Royaume de la Petite Armenie

Hi Elonka, I would love to assist you, but I couldn't find the Armenian text you were referring to. I downloaded the Historiens Occidentaux, Tome I from the Crusades Encyclopedia thinking that was the file, but page 660 turned out to be in French. So I'm guessing that was the French version you wanted to compare the Armenian with. I will try to find the Armenian text and translate it for you. Also, it would probably be better to contact Hetoum I as well. He knows more about the Cilician Armenia and the Crusades. VartanM 02:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

note

don't take this revert personally.^[2] but i don't quite see how jenin is a place of such importance to connect with the jezreel vally... perhaps you could persuade me on the article's talk page. the addition of a map would be a good idea also. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 02:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Franco-Mongol alliance

Dear Elonka. Just understand I just woke up, and you already reverted several of my modifications of the morning (no, I am not on this 24 hours a day, far from it :)). Please realize 99% of the content you have been adding is staying in: you can allow the remaining 1% to be modified by other users don't you think? How about some tolerance here? PHG 04:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Elonka. I am afraid somebody is getting over-excited here... I just put forward again some of the important quotes in the article. Best regards. PHG 12:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

PHG, please look at your contribs: PHG (talk · contribs). You're spending waaaaaay too much time on one article, and you're barely sleeping. Please, take a break, take a nap, go work on something else for awhile. I'm trying to edit the article to remove some duplication and get some sections consistent, and it's very difficult to do this when you revert one section I worked on, while I'm still in edit on the next one. Then I come out of edit and things are mixed up again. Please, take a break. No matter what I do, you'll still be able to tweak it later. There's no reason to be reverting me within minutes. --Elonka 12:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Elonka. Since you ask... I actually had a great night, and the weather in Paris was amazing today. I ran 10km in a beautiful park this morning, and this afternoon I had an ice-cream with my kid... and in the meantime, I also had the great pleasure to work on Wikipedia for the preservation of fabulous sources (ancient and modern) which an editor, whatever his agenda, would rather see undermined, minimized, hidden or even erased. Elonka, let's work together for a balanced article, that fairly presents all the facts (ancient and modern) relevant to our subject matter. :):) Best regards. PHG 16:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources

Hi Elonka - I have a quick question. Is MySpace considered a reliable source, in regards to pop culture? For example, a band may have a MySpace, but is that considered a source for the band? Please reply here, as I'll have your page on watch. Thank you! Dh993 14:13, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that no, MySpace is definitely not a reliable source. However, it is usually reasonable to include a link to a subject's MySpace page in the "External links" section of an article, as long as there is no reasonable dispute that it is really their page. For example, with many pop stars, it is routine for fans to create MySpace pages that claim to be an official page, but actually are not. If you're sure it's really the official page though, there might be a case for sourcing some very trivial biographical data (birthday, place of birth, schools attended, etc.) from a mySpace page, but this would have to be done with great caution, and I absolutely wouldn't use a mySpace page as a source for any kind of claim of notability (like an award or something). And even with the biographical trivia, if there were any doubts as to the reliability of the data, or if any other more reliable source contradicted what was on the mySpace page, then the other source should be used, and not mySpace. For more info, see WP:AUTO and WP:V. Also, if you'd like to point me at the exact page that you're talking about, I'd be happy to take a look and offer an opinion. --Elonka 20:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment on User Conduct - Matt Sanchez / Bluemarine

Hello, may I ask for your participation in an RFC established for user Bluemarine/Matt Sanchez? The reason for the Request for Comment is set out in the RFC summary here. Whether you support or oppose it, your input would be appreciated.Typing monkey 18:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Convent of the Order of Christ

Hi, Elonka. I removed the link you placed to a YouTube video, as well as a link to another video placed by an anonymous user. If you think the link is appropriate to the article, please discuss on the talk page. Thanks. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 15:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Replied at talk.  :) --Elonka 16:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Franco-Mongol alliance - sources

Hi Elonka. I made a very rough translation of what is considered to be a very reliable source in Hebrew, which, I believe, will explain some of the confusion. I am very interested in your source as well, as I must admit, I did not know about this historical tidbit before I started looking it up. I did go through about six books on the history of Jerusalem, and can only say that if Vilnai doesn't mention it, it is likely spurious. If I can provide any additional information, I have a fairly extensive library of Jerusalem history here at home, even if most of it is in Hebrew. Danny 00:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I am on IRC. As I mentioned, most of my source material is in Hebrew, but I can easily translate any I find. I do want to see if I can find another source, which will go into greater detail on the legend, if it mentions it at all. One inconsistancy in our two sources is the number of days the Armenian king reigned (13 v. 15), but it certainly seems close enough. Danny 00:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't have Gichon's sources available. I can see if I can find them, but my resources in St. Pete's are a tad limited. ;-) Basically, only what I have in the house. There is a technical term for the Central Waterline, but it is slipping my mind. In Hebrew it is Kav Parashat haMayim, literally, "the line where the water splits." If you imagine Palestine as an inverted V, running North-South, clouds from the Mediterranean rise up to the mountain ridge, where they break, causing rain. The water flows mostly in a westward direction back to the Mediterranean leaving the land to the east a desert up to the Jordan Valley. Most cities are located on the ridge, where the rain is heaviest--for agricultural reasons. Today they are Safad, Afula, Jenin, Nablus, Ramallah, Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Hebron, and Beersheba, all on the same north-south axis on the ridge. Danny 00:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Fustat

hi Elonka, there's been some feedback in the GAC review on Talk:Fustat (Talk:Fustat#GAC_review), most of which i attempted to address. a few of them i thought you might be in a better position to rectify, such as the other capitals section, or some of the other content issues raised. regards, ITAQALLAH 11:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Stanley Dunin

Stanley Dunin, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that Stanley Dunin satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stanley Dunin 2 and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Stanley Dunin during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. CO₂ 00:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Demurger

I am sorry I have not commented more on this topic ... yet. I have ordered the Demurger book (The Last Templar -- $1.35 plus shipping used) and plan on learning a bit more about the topic, so that I can discuss it from a more informed position. I suspect that there is some hyperbole about what the book actually says. Danny 13:30, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Rodryg Dunin

A {{prod}} template has been added to the article Rodryg Dunin, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but this article may not satisfy Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and the deletion notice explains why (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and Wikipedia's deletion policy). You may contest the proposed deletion by removing the {{dated prod}} notice, but please explain why you disagree with the proposed deletion in your edit summary or on its talk page. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Even though removing the deletion notice will prevent deletion through the proposed deletion process, the article may still be deleted if it matches any of the speedy deletion criteria or it can be sent to Articles for Deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. If you endorse deletion of the article, and you are the only person who has made substantial edits to the page, please tag it with {{db-author}}. CO₂ 14:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Proposed_deletion#How it works, I have removed the template as articles that have been the subject of AfD discussions are not valid {{Prod}} candidates. WjBscribe 14:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Rodryg Dunin

Rodryg Dunin, an article you created, has been nominated for deletion. We appreciate your contributions. However, an editor does not feel that Rodryg Dunin satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in the nomination space (see also "What Wikipedia is not" and the Wikipedia deletion policy). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rodryg Dunin 2 and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Rodryg Dunin during the discussion but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. CO₂ 15:48, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a question

Hello Elonka. You are a well known and pretty contoversial Wikipedia editor. You're articles on family members and yourself are constantly under scrutiny. Personally, I do believe some of them are notable, but others not so much... including your personal page. Here is my question, if you did not have so many Wiki-Allies would the articles still exsist? Additionally, what is the purpose of placing obscure family members on Wikipedia? These questions are not asked with any malicious intentions, merely curiosity. Thanks. м info 05:01, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair question, though I'd point out that most of these articles were ones that I created over a year ago, and I really haven't edited any articles about my immediate family in quite some time. But when I did create them, it was my genuine desire to simply "fill in gaps" in Wikipedia. I felt (and still do) that Wikipedia's quantity of articles tends to be a bit more skewed towards pop culture than actual history, and more focused on people from English-speaking countries, and not so much on the rest of the world. I did feel that several of my relatives met WP:BIO guidelines, but there weren't articles on them yet, so I went ahead and created a few. In most cases the notability claims and confirming sources are pretty clear (Raphael Kalinowski, Ladislaus Hengelmuller, Edward Werner, Henryk Leon Strasburger, Alfred Niezychowski, etc.). In others, I decided to be bold and create articles for individuals who I knew would meet WP:BIO, but for whom the sources were still a bit weak. In any case, where there are good faith challenges, I'm fine on the wiki-community making up its mind on whether the articles should stick around or not, and I'll abide by whatever the consensus is. Where I have trouble with some of the actions though, is where "attacks" are made on some of the articles about my relatives, for no other reason than because they're my relatives. In other words, if I had created the articles and then simply never edited Wikipedia after that, the articles probably wouldn't be subject to these constant attacks.  :/ For example, see here, which continues to drag on, as seen here. I find these kinds of "revenge" actions by people who seem to have no other purpose on Wikipedia except to snipe at other editors, one of the more unpleasant parts of participation here. I also find it unfortunately distracting, since what I want to be focusing on right now, is a series of articles about medieval Egyptian history and the Crusades.  :) For example, I just got Fustat (the city that was capital of Egypt before Cairo) to Good Article status, and I'm working on Franco-Mongol alliance, which I think will make a great featured article someday.  :) As for who's participating in the AfDs about my relatives, it would not be correct to say that it's just my friends, as I honestly have no idea who most of those people are. I definitely have not been canvassing and telling people to go participate -- word is getting out through the normal wiki-processes. As for whether I myself am notable, you are welcome to question that, though you may find it interesting to watch this 12-minute video and see what PBS says.[3] I hope that answers your questions? If you'd like to know anything else, please feel free to tell me.  :) --Elonka 05:45, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair answer Elonka, I apreciate it. м info 03:57, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

E-mail

You have been sent one. :) Acalamari 18:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I've just move protected your user and talk page for a day each. You just had an impersonator and vandal move your pages. Acalamari 21:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for staying on top of it. I haven't been hit by that particular kind of vandalism before... Any idea what it's related to? --Elonka 22:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. :) It was most likely just someone simply wanting to cause trouble, judging by their impersonation-username, and by the fact they vandalized four days after they created their account. The move feature only comes to users with accounts more than four days old. However, they have now been reverted, and blocked. :) Acalamari 22:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Attacks

Dear Elonka. This is so nice of you to attack me on all boards you can think of... Why don't you just stick with specifics and recognize what sources say? Balanced editing and NPOV presentation of sources should help you stay away from this kind of ridiculous arguments. Best regards. PHG 07:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the discussions at:

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mongol conquests and Jerusalem
• WP:ANI#POV-pushing by User:PHG
• Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#Request for comment
• Talk:Mongol raids into Palestine

It would seem that the vast majority of other editors are disagreeing with you. Perhaps you should rethink your own position, before this escalates further? It would be helpful for you to apologize for your actions, acknowledge community consensus, and promise to cease edit-warring and engaging in tendentious editing. But as long as you keep insisting that you are right and everyone else is wrong, I'm afraid that this is going to get worse before it gets better. --Elonka 08:26, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Elonka. Number 1) is about keeping a title or not for a sub-article: no big deal, and this is very peripheral to our main subject. Number 2) is about you slandering me, and I just responded. Number 3) is an ancient discussion. Number 4) is basically the same as Number 1). So how about the central subject matter of the Franco-Mongol alliance?: you lost the vote to change the name, your vaunted 3:1 support disappeared, and it has been made obvious that you misinterpret sources to fit your storyline. Keep you attacks as long as you want, but there is no way you can deny, eliminate and corrupt reputable sources in favour of your point of view. Best regards. PHG 08:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

TfD

Hi Elonka. I was browsing through the templates and I noticed this one, and it seems that it should be deleted. I wasn't really sure where I would go about doing that so I was just passing it along to the right person. Thanks! Dh993 23:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Franco-Mongol Article

Hello Elonka,

I happened to come across your contributions on the Franco-Mongol page and noticed that you have been engaging in an edit-war with PHG. You seem very reasonable in your position and sincere in your attempts at composing legitimate, accurate history. Although I am not as steeped in these details as you are, in my studies of world history, I did read of the french attempt at forging an alliance, but I also read that it was dismissed by the mongol court. In fact, when the islamic world was under siege from the Mongol invasion, there were accounts about how a number of european leaders refrained from pressing their advantage, recognizing the common threat from central asian tribes (the mongols after all did advance as far as Hungary). Regardless, I will not involve myself as I too have had numerous edit wars with PHG, and he would use my involvement as a means to slander you and your cause. I also wish to caution you:

• Much as he's done with that interview on the franco-mongol article, he uses obsolete/discredited/suspect sources, original research, and personal opinion to advance his positions.
• He will read up just enough on a subject to convince admins who are unfamiliar with the topic that he is a fair and legitimate editor. This is how pulls off his "featured articles" even though they are clearly poorly composed, biased, and unwieldly.
• Anyone who disagrees with him is branded a vandal once sufficient resistance has been demonstrated.
• He will load up an article with unrelated or unnecessary primary source references until it is unwieldly beyond belief. Casual readers can't get the main points and face an almost unreadable article. This is unfortunate for wikipedia,which is after all an encyclopedia and not a thesis.
• If there is a position he doesn't like, but is validated by fact and confirmed by a consensus among modern scholarship, he will then quote primary sources and then reinterpret them to support his opinion and cast doubt on the valid modern consensus.
• Worst of all, he will romanticize figures or peoples that interest him.

• He will also enlist "objective editors" such as Aldux and Giani G who are actually his cronies and support him without question or legitimate dialogue with the other side. This gives the illusion of a majority on his side, when in fact you have the numbers.
• PHG and his team don't respond to reason, but ignore the question, misquote either you or the source and attempt to slander you through cheap histrionics.
• Most importantly, PHG refuses to negotiate fairly with anyone and will back out of agreements once editors are inactive or move on to other things. He has done so on India related articles and is clearly applying those tactics here again.
• His last line of defense is, "I have barnstars, this is a featured article, so clearly it must be right as is" or "all sides must be heard" even though he is trying to silence yours.

I know how frustrating it can be to deal with someone who makes emotional appeals on NPOV when in reality he's pushing exactly the opposite. Don't let him intimidate you with baseless accusations, threats, and dialectical acrobatics. Please let me know if you have any questions. Best of luck in this debate. I hope the wikipedia administators recognize that your respectable attempts at forging consensus and ensuring accuracy must be supported.

Best Regards,

Devanampriya 16:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey Elonka,

Did not mean to join in the Wikipedia review of PHG, but I saw that you were being attacked by outsiders so I figured I would bring forward my evidence in spite of the predictable knee jerk attacks on me. Not sure how much difference it will make ( I apologize for the length), but I, and other editors, have been meaning to complain about him for some time as well. Thank you for your courageous stand. Please let me know if you need anything else. Good luck!

Best,

Devanampriya 00:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Elonka,

Devanampriya drew my attention to your administrator noticeboard complaint about PHG and I just wanted to give you a pat on the back. I'm glad somebody is finally putting a stop to him. As if his POV sins weren't grievous enough, his articles are long, boring, and completely opaque to the reader. It wouldn't be so bad if he'd let other people edit the damn things, but he treats them like his personal fief. I can't even begin to explain how frustrating it is to deal with him and his posse, but I get the feeling you can sympathize. Feel free to tip me off on my talk page if you ever need me to weigh in.

Windy City Dude 04:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey Elonka,

My apologies again for the monster post. It appears my note was as unwieldly as phg's inane 160kb articles, heh, just a little joke for you there. Anyhow, I hope my new post helps you somewhat. As for your other questions:

• I repeatedly requested arbitration from admins, the latest being admin Blnguyen. However, they all noted that they did not have the requisite knowledge of the topic. Blnguyen did note that if PHG's skewing of article pov was verified, it would be an offense serious enough for banning. I believe we have the evidence.
• I requested a neutrality review of the article and posted a "Neutrality disputed" banner at the top; however, PHG repeatedly deleted it and no admin ever responded.

Please let me know if you need anything else. I hope my condensed post was more helpful.

Best,

Devanampriya 05:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Elonka,

My apologies :(. It is just that PHG has a habit of ignoring inconvenient evidence and prematurely ending debate. I sincerely take your advice to heart and will make it a point to refrain from anything approaching incivility in all cases (although, I am only this heated with PHG and Co).

I did post one more time on the review page. I am not sure if it will help much, but at least I became the target instead of you ;). Anyhow, at this stage, I will defer to you in the matter. If you need specific resources or references, I am at your disposal. I believe it might be best if we refocus this discussion onto PHG, and to do that, I need to withdraw myself as a target for his antics. There is a clear cut case for original research (given the phg's flimsy foundations that even user ghirla has noticed). I suggest we focus on both that and PHG's tendency to OWN pages.

Sorry I could not be more effective. Please let me know if you require anything. Good luck!

Very Best Regards,

Devanampriya 01:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to email me at Devanampriyadarshi@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Devanampriya (talk • contribs) 01:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Re: personal remark

Hi, Elonka. I appreciate your efforts to make Wikipedia a better place and would be delighted to work with you some day when I shall have more time for Wikipedia. You should excuse my statement about your need to always be in the right, if it is disconnected from reality, since it was not intended as a negative assessment of your general activity and was based primarily on my acquaintance with the recent RfA dramas which certaintly don't highlight the penchant for easy compromises you spoke of.

As for the matter at hand, I urge you and PHG to reconcile your differences without alleging some terrible misdeeds on the part of one's opponent. For as long as I know him, PHG has been given to speculative theories and building elaborate castles on rather flimsy foundations, but overall he is an inestimable contributor of material on rather obscure topics. I suppose you both have the best interests of Wikipedia at heart and will find a way to honourably emerge from this imbroglio. --Ghirla^-трёп- 12:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

ANI

Dear Elonka. Please kindly note I have filed a claim for "Editorial and procedural abuses by User:Elonka" on ANI: WP:ANI#Editorial and procedural abuses by User:Elonka. Best regards. PHG 18:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Smile

LaMenta3 has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Seems that you could use one of these things again. Take it easy and remember why we're all here to begin with: to have fun! LaMenta3 19:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)