User talk:Eldumpo/Archive1

Welcome!

Hello, Eldumpo, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{helpme}} before the question. Again, welcome! DS (talk) 15:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

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Argentine football

Hi, I noticed that you have made a number of useful contributions to Argentine football clubs over the last couple of days. Perhaps you would be interested in joining Wikiproject Argentine football, we are desperate for new editors to help us improve the coverage of Argentine (and South American) football. I have been working hard to try and redress English Wikipedia's bias towards Anglo and European football although it often feels like I'm swimming against a tidal wave. I hope you can help. Kind regards King of the North East 22:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Several of the top clubs and former championship winning teams such as Colón de Santa Fe, Ferro Carril Oeste, Chacarita Juniors are far too short compared to European clubs of similar stature in terms of prose, especially club history. Many of the player articles are barely sourced, there are many missing Seasons in Argentine football, and many of the ones I have got around to creating miss details on the lower leagues and the Argentina national team.

As for south Anerican football, there are still editions of Copa Libertadores without articles (the Champions League ones have been complete for years), many of the Copa América articles are nothing more that stubs. There is a mountain of stuff to do and only half a dozen committed editors. Here are some useful sources nything you could do would be appreciated, if you ever need help or advice give me a shout. Regards King of the North East 19:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

La Florida

I got the information from a now defunct website called futboldeascenso. According to the Spanish Wikipage es:La_Florida_(Tucumán), the place exists and the team are based there, but I see what you mean about the map it just looks like a load of fields. I'm sure the place exists, since it has an entry on the Argentine Ministry of the Interior website. As for the club, BDFA has La Florida (Tucumán) as the location. I hope this helps. Regards King of the North East 12:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Advice

Hello,

I noticed you have dePRODed a few articles recently. As someone who has been patrolling expiring PRODs for some time, I thought you might like some advice from me, but feel free to ignore if you like. :)

If you can, edit the article to address the prodder's concerns - for example, to copy edit or add sources
Add {{Oldprodfull}} to the talk page to prevent someone else from re-proding later. I usually also add at least one WikiProject tag to the talk page. A list can be found at Wikipedia:List of WikiProjects
There is really no need to inform the prodder that you removed the tag. In all likelyhood, they are already they are already watching the article and sending them a message about it just encourages them to send the article to AfD. For example, Jeremy Rowley went straight to AfD after your message.
If you care about the article, you should add it to your watch list so you can defend it at AfD if needed
This is a minor point, but I wouldn't use the word "revert" when removing a tag as that implies the nominator did something wrong. Use "remove" or "contest" instead.

If you have further questions, or would like advice on finding sources, let me know. I will be glad to help. --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Middot

mac: option-shift-9
windows: hold alt then type 250 on the number pad
wikipedia editor on the "Insert" popup list between → and §
cheat - use a comma: {{,}} gives: ·

Cheers --TheAllSeeingEye (talk) 18:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Austrian football First League professional?

There you go: Official Bundesliga statutes

Both the Austrian Bundesliga and First League are run by an entity similar to the DFL in Germany (in fact, the Austrian organisation exists since 1991, while the DFL was not founded until the early 2000s). In the main statutes it says in §1, article (2):

The Bundesliga is the federation of all football clubs in the highest two levels of Austrian professional football. In cooperation with its members, it represents professional football in Austria.

Rushing both sentences through Goolge Translate results in a similar translation, by the way. :-)

Hope this helps... --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 09:20, 12 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Answers

Hi, Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.

This is a list of the Argentine leagues and templates to be updated to the new season. Anything in orange is yet to be done.
I'm sure that Primera B Nacional is fully professional, but I've never been able to find a source, therefore it is not on the list. I have my doubts about Torneo Argentino A and Primera B Metropolitana, some of the clubs at these levels look semi-professional. Anything below the 3rd level is certainly not fully professional.

Regards, King of the North East 10:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A warm welcome!

Glad you can join!

Articles tagged for deletion and rescue
Category Articles tagged for deletion and rescue not found

Hi, Eldumpo, welcome to the Article Rescue Squadron! We are a growing community of Wikipedia editors dedicated to identifying and rescuing articles that have been tagged for deletion. Every day hundreds of articles are deleted, many rightfully so. But many concern notable subjects and are poorly written, ergo fixable and should not be deleted. We try to help these articles quickly improve and address the concerns of why they are proposed for deletion. This covers a lot of ground and your help is appreciated!

Some points that may be helpful:
Our main aim is to help improve articles, so if someone seeks help, please try to assist if you are able. Likewise feel free to ask for help, advice and clarification. Many times we are asked to help rescue articles by people new to our notability and sourcing policies. If the article is not fixable we can help explain why and offer alternatives. Many of these editors are also new to Wikipedia so may see deleting "their" article as "bitey". Encourage civility and maybe even {{welcome}} them if they have only been templated with deletion messages. The Articles for deletion (AfD) discussion is where the concerns regarding each article are brought up and addressed. To be an effective member of the project you need to know how AfD works as well as how to improve articles. Introduction to deletion process gives a good overview and some good advice for newcomers to deletion. Our primary work is improving articles tagged for rescue. On this template you can see a drop-down list of current articles tagged. You can install it on your own page by putting {{ARS/Tagged}}. A more dynamic list with article links and description is on our current articles page. It is highly recommended you watchlist it. If you have another language besides English, please consider adding yourself to the list of translators available. Articles and sources that use non-English languages often need translation for those of us who cannot translate for ourselves. Many important discussions take place on the project's main discussion page; it is recommended that you watchlist it.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask on the talk page, and we will be happy to help you.

And once again - Welcome! Ikip (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion of "George Ross (footballer born 1943)"

A page you created, George Ross (footballer born 1943), has been tagged for deletion, as it meets one or more of the criteria for speedy deletion; specifically, it is about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how they are important or significant, and thus why they should be included in an encyclopedia. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, and the guidelines for biographies in particular.

You are welcome to contribute content which complies with our content policies and any applicable inclusion guidelines. However, please do not simply re-create the page with the same content. You may also wish to read our introduction to editing and guide to writing your first article.

Thank you. Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 22:31, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does indicate why he is important. He has played over 400 games at a notable level (thus meeting WP:Athlete) and has also played in the FA Cup Final. Eldumpo (talk) 22:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alright then. I taged it because it only had one source and as a result did not meet WP:RS. Sorry about that :)--Coldplay Expért ^{Let's talk} 22:48, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but it has 2 sources really as there is the External link as well. Does only having one source justify an article for speedy deletion - surely not? Can you remove the CSD then please? Eldumpo (talk) 22:54, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of England international footballers (alphabetical)

Hi - thanks for the message about the above article. Your analysis of the history of this article is spot-on. I created it because the older "List of England international footballers" article was incomplete, being restricted to those players with more than 25 appearances. I did try to merge the two articles but this was reversed; after a rather heated discussion, I accepted the position.

I accept that the full list is rather large and can cause problems with slow browsers and some platforms, but I have no trouble opening or sorting it. The separate articles for the individual letters of the alphabet were started by User:Twerbrou - his rationale was that it took too long to load the full list. Unfortunately, he seemed to have lost interest after getting to letter F. If there was some way of transcluding the smaller list to make one larger one this might work but otherwise the alphabet lists are a waste of space., especially as they are rarely updated (as far as I can see the last update was in February 2009).

As the creator of the full, alphabetical list, I may be biased but I think that an article calling itself a List of Wales international footballers should list every player, not just those making more than an arbitrary number of appearances. The List of Scotland international footballers (alphabetical) follows a similar format, although with less information, having only five fields rather than nine. Ideally, all the lists in Category:Lists of footballers by national team should follow a standard format, but there is unlikely ever to be a consensus on which format to standardize to.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck. A full Wales list would be a very useful addition to Wikipedia but, if my experience is anything to go by, will become an all-consuming passion. I hope this is of some help. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 06:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Wales international footballers

Hi, I noticed the new article you started and I'd like to help out expanding this article. Reading the discussion above, what sort of set rules for the list did you decide on? For example, is it for every player with a cap and are you adding players in a certain order such as match by match or just adding any player? Thanks. Kosack (talk) 20:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kosack, a bit more info is at [1], but in short it is every player with at least a cap. I am starting with the top 10 caps, but if I come across an intl' team (either first/last cap) not already featured, I will look to add the player who does 1st have that team (e.g. Jeff Hopkins / C Rica). I would welcome your input - do you plan to pick partic players? Regards Eldumpo (talk) 21:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, I'll have a read through that discussion. I'd be mostly looking at adding former Cardiff players, so basically players on the List of Cardiff City F.C. internationals, but I'd be willing to help out on anyone else as well. Kosack (talk) 21:26, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that thread doesn't add too much actually now that I've started the article. DK will try and add Soton when he can. I think my comment about adding first mention of a national team is a bit off at a tangent for now, so think I will start with top 10 appearances and then top 10 scorers. Eldumpo (talk) 21:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. I won't be around to edit until Sunday when I'll add any former Cardiff players that I have the relevant information for. Then perhaps work backwards game by game from the last match. What do you think the layout for still active players should be? Update their last cap when they win another or leave it blank while they are still active? Kosack (talk) 22:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest active players get included and updated once another game is played, as unlike club stats, the games are not so frequent. If I come across Cardiff players in my ordering I will still add them, if you've not already added. PS - is that Cardiff City intls' page complete, and have you considered whether a table format would work? Eldumpo (talk) 22:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I preferred that option as well. The Cardiff City internationals page is complete as far as I know. I have been considering expanding the information for a while but haven't got around to it yet and I'm also undecided about how much information to include on each player. Kosack (talk) 23:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding the Cardiff players. Eldumpo (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No problem. I've only got a handful more to do. However there are a few that I haven't been able to do as either I don't have the complete info on their international career or I've found conflicting sources about various things. Kosack (talk) 17:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you planning to still add those to the list - even if it's just their name and caps? Eldumpo (talk) 17:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well once I finish adding the remaining players I haven't so far then I'll try and dig a bit deeper through the net and various references in an attempt to find out anything more I can on them. What's your opinion on adding players with incomplete info to the list? I'm sure we'll probably come across more like that in the future. Kosack (talk) 17:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would say add what details you can and leave other boxes with '?' or similar, although you can see from the references that quite a few early years line-ups are available. Eldumpo (talk) 17:29, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, if I can't complete their info then I'll add them anyway. The only players I haven't been able to complete so far played mainly between 1965–1979 due to a lack of detailed info such as dates of the matches etc. Apart from Kevin Ratcliffe, who I've been unable to confirm his debut and number of caps due to some conflicting sources. Kosack (talk) 17:37, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rothmans has a debut of 19/11/80 (v Czech.) for Ratcliffe, and a total of 59 caps - what do your sources say? Eldumpo (talk) 19:44, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, it turns out to be my mistake. I had exactly that until I started checking over the rsssf game by game and couldn't find any mention of his final cap which threw me off. However re-reading it now, it seems I misread it. Sorry about that. Kosack (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished the Cardiff players now. The only players I have been unable to complete are Peter Rodrigues, Rod Thomas and John Toshack, the information I'm missing on all three of them is their final cap so hopefully you can complete their info. Tomorrow I'll start moving back game by game from the most recent match. Kosack (talk) 12:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've done those 3 and Ratcliffe, thanks again. Going back game by game sounds good - what source are you planning to use? Eldumpo (talk) 19:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The match reports from the BBC Sport and FAW websites will take us back as far as 2000. The rsssf reports begin in 2005 as well so those three should have it covered for the next few days. Kosack (talk) 20:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your latest additions. See my question on R Burgess at [2] Cheers Eldumpo (talk) 15:30, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, could you have a quick look at Danny Collins? I have him as winning six caps between 2005-2007 but for some reason his article has him at seventeen caps. I'd like a second opinion on it before I go and change his article in case I've missed something glaringly obvious. Thanks. Kosack (talk) 12:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This link [3] shows him with 6 caps as of 01/09/09 and as far as I can tell he hasn't appeared since then and the only 'Collins' appearances since are for James. Eldumpo (talk) 17:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for helping to confirm that. Kosack (talk) 11:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eu-Football

I've just given my support to this site. Thanks for warning me about that. Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 10:23, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I've been adding players to the List of Wales international footballers I've begun to realise that this site is not terribly reliable. For example, the careers of the various Robert or Bob Roberts (all of whom were active around the same time) were completely muddled, so while I find it useful to identify the debutantes on a match-by-match basis, I have to cross-check everything back to the "Who's Who of Welsh International Soccer Players" book. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:39, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback. I would probably seek to use it as an online source to back up paper sources, but it would still be a lot better if it weren't whitelisted. Eldumpo (talk) 18:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

List of Wales International footballers

I've come to the end of the RSSSF line-ups now so any player who made an appearance from 1980 onwards should be on the list, unless I've accidentally missed someone. The only source I have for the 70's, outside of any minor mentions I can find in a search engine, is Dean Hayes' Wales: The Who's Who of Footballers Since 1946.

I actually have one problem that I was hoping you could help solve. The book doesn't have exact dates of caps, just month and year. Normally this isn't a problem but in September 1978 Wales played Kuwait twice which has left me stuck on three players, Ian Edwards, Ian Evans and John Phillips all of whom won either their first or last cap in one of those games. Do you have a source that can tell you which of the matches those three played in? Thanks. Kosack (talk) 00:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the help. Kosack (talk) 11:55, 22 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Would you object if I moved our discussions from my talk page to the article talk page? That would enable other uses to be aware of them . Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 12:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No that's fine - makes sense for a number of the points we raised. Eldumpo (talk) 19:46, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie Morris

The "Who's Who" book has him with 28 whereas the "Complete Wales FC" book says 27. "Who's Who" lists him as playing against Scotland on 15 March 1902, so I can only assume that they got confused with either Robert Morris or Richard Morris both of whom played in that match, although "Who's Who" does include the Scotland match in their appearances too. Anyway, I am happy that the correct total is 27. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 10:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Roberts

My two books are more or less in agreement on the following:

Robert Roberts (footballer born 1864) Druids/Bolton Wing half Games 9 Goals 1

Scotland 29 03 1884 (Scored)

Scotland 21 03 1887

England 04 02 1888

Scotland 10 03 1888

England 23 02 1889

Scotland 15 04 1889

Scotland 22 03 1890

Ireland 27 02 1892

Scotland 26 03 1892

Bob Roberts (footballer born 1863) Wrexham Full back Games 2 Goals 0

Ireland 27 02 1886

Ireland 12 03 1887

Robert Roberts (footballer born 1865) Rhos/Crewe Outside left Games 2 Goals 0

Ireland 07 02 1891

England 13 03 1893

Robert Lee Roberts Chester Fullback Games 1 Goals 0

Ireland 08 02 1890

The only difference is who score in the Ireland 07 02 1891 match, although I would go with the WFDA on this i.e. neither of them. Cheers --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who's Who just lists each appearances, and Wales FC gives line-ups and total appearances. I listed him as Robert Lee Roberts because apparently he was referred to that way to distinguish him from the others. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:07, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have started an article on Robert Roberts (footballer born 1864) (currently in draft on my test page). Before I finish it, I will add a table of his international appearances. I will then go on and create articles on the other three, although there is less information about them in my record books. Cheers. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 07:37, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have now created three of the articles, but am having a little bother with the fourth (Robert Roberts (footballer born 1865)). Who's Who lists him as born in Rhosllanerchrugog and playing for Rhos, Witton Britannia, West Bromwich Albion, Wrexham & Crewe. On www.allfootballers.com, there are two separate listings. One is for a R. Roberts who played twice for Wales and played for Rhos and Crewe (but with no place or date of birth) and the other is shown as Robert HC Roberts, born Marchwiel in 1870 and played for Rhos, Witton Britannia, West Bromwich Albion, Wrexham & Corwen. Both are listed as "Winger". Can you check your Rothmans to see what that says, or shed any light? Cheers. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 12:55, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. The two villages are about 7 miles apart

The Welsh intl' is the one marked as 'R Roberts', who was playing for Rhos when he got his 1st cap and Crewe for the 2nd - I have no record of him playing for other clubs, nor of his year/place of birth. The 1870 Roberts (HC) is not marked as being a Welsh intl. It's possible the Who's Who may have got the two players a little mixed up re the list of clubs. Hope this clarifies. Eldumpo (talk) 15:09, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced BLPs

Hello Eldumpo. First of all, thank you very much for your work on sourcing BLPs. I noticed that you have done a lot and would give you a barnstar if I knew how. With respect to the WP:FOOTY list that is sorted by country, I really have no idea why some nations have their own subpages, and some don't. I think User:Rettetast formatted the page, and I suspect he was trying to reduce the size of the page so it would load faster. Any work you have done will still show up in your "my contributions" page as well as the various supages at WP:FOOTY. Best regards and keep up the great work. Jogurney (talk) 23:33, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re:Rollo Jack

I changed the stub tag fo England from no nationality as it states in the infobox that he was born in England and played exclusivly for English clubs, also according to the article his brother was an England International. I felt that was enough to suggest he was English. Waacstats (talk) 09:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As we don't have a UK stub tag I think the best bet is to go with the nation that seems most likely (in this case England) or in this case to go with England and Scotland tags on the page. Waacstats (talk) 09:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dates of birth

Hi there, whenever you need a date of birth for a Football League player, feel free to drop a note on my talk page and I'll be happy to have a look at allfootballers for you. Cheers, -- Big Dom 10:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Priestley/Redmond

Hi there, according to Allfootballers:

Gerry (Gerald) Priestley
Born 2 March 1931 in Halifax, West Yorkshire
Winger
1950-1953 Nottingham Forest 0 (0)
1953-1955 Exeter City 42 (6)
1955-1958 Grimsby Town 110 (11)
1958-1960 Crystal Palace 28 (2)
1960-1963 Halifax Town 105 (23)

Harry (Harold) Redmond
Born 24 March 1933 in Manchester
Died 1985
Full-back
1957-1958 Crystal Palace 2 (0)
1958-1961 Millwall 55 (0)
?-? Dartford

-- Big Dom 19:47, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Allfootballers gives the month they joined for post-war players. The years I've given are from there but I can have a look at the months if you want. -- Big Dom 20:43, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If the dates given represent the years they joined that's sufficient. I just wanted to check that joining Grimsby 1955 didn't mean the 1955-56 season i.e. could've been 1956. Eldumpo (talk) 20:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Football club wiki pipes

I added pipes to a number of articles because some team names are not official names or need further verification. In a number of cases the limited number of resources does not allow researchers to determine with significant accuracy the degree to which a team's name was official or merely a descriptive term. In the example you cited for Denis Lawson, the term Clamdiggers would be best used in parentheses if at all. Libro0 (talk) 23:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

External link vs Inline citation

I have asked Vasco before and neither of us knows the correct way to report websites with "player profiles". I think he believes the information is too general for inline citations and always moves them to external links. I often use specific information from these websites and think an inline citation is appropriate. I've lost the desire to argue with him and just add inline cites to the articles I'm working on and let him switch them back to links if he likes (he usually only edits Portuguese and Spanish footballers so I don't run across him too often). In either case, I'm sure these articles are sufficiently sourced (if the website is a reliable source) to move the tag from BLP unsourced to BLP sources (or remove the tag completely if the article just has a career history which is covered by the website). Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 14:32, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Welsh football

You "invited" me to help out with the List of Wales international footballers back in December, since when I've got rather wrapped up with Welsh football and footballers. I have now created several articles on Welsh international players (about 25 in all) but want to move on to other things. (As my user name may indicate, I tend to jump sabout a bit!) I have now expanded the article on the "Father of Welsh football", Llewelyn Kenrick, and have created an article on the first Wales international but I think that I'll call it a day for now. There are still several Southampton players without any sort of Wikipedia article (and many stubs that need a lot of work) so that will be my priority for now. It's been an interesting three months or so as an "honorary Welshman". Cheers. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 13:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]