User talk:Dirtlawyer1/Archives/2012/March

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Re: Barnstar

Thank you SO much! I never expected to receive one of these. I've always been impressed with your work as well. Thank you again... I will display it proudly ~ Richmond96 t • c 00:26, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Rant on Giants27's talk page

While I agree with some of your points, others I am not sure of. For example, the round in which a player is drafted, though it may not seem to be notable or important if it is a mid-round, for whatever reason is in fact notable in the media and to the general public. Take a look at some Pro Football Hall of Fame bios. The second fact in Terry Bradshaw's HOF bio is "First player in NFL draft, 1970". Lem Barney's HOF bio says as the second statement "Second-round draft pick, 1967". John Madden didn't even play professionally, but the fact that he was drafted in the 21st round of the 1958 Draft is mentioned in his biography. I can't explain why, but for some reason there is huge interest from fans and readers in what specific round a player was drafted (I, too, share this habit). Eagles 24/7 (C) 00:43, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

E, to my way of thinking, it's not a question of whether a player's draft history should be mentioned in his professional career summary. Obviously, it should. The question is, as a matter of uniformly enforced WP:NFL policy and style, whether we should include the draft history in the lead in every instance. It's already included in the infobox in every instance for quick reading, which should satisfy the casual reader's curiosity about a player's draft history. In this discussion, the pertinent questions are (1) does the draft history contribute to the particular player's Wikipedia notability per WP:LEAD, or (2) is it otherwise significant in the context of the particular player's overall career history to merit approximately one-third of the lead. In either instance, it's relatively difficult to argue that Cooper Carlisle's fourth-round draft status either contributed to his notability for Wikipedia purposes, or was a particularly significant milestone that somehow illuminates his entire 12-year NFL career for purposes of writing a good lead. IMO, in this particular case (an many other similar cases), the draft history belongs in the professional career section, and serves little purpose in the lead.

BTW, if the automatic inclusion of the player's draft history were the only thing that's wrong with the so-called "standardized" WP:NFL lead for player bios, I would gladly concede the point. Unfortunately, it's not. The RfC on point is coming. Dirtlawyer1 (talk)

As I said, the people who run the Pro Football Hall of Fame (as well as writers in other places, in many cases) deem the rounds the players are drafted as notable enough to warrant the second mention in their "lead" of the biographies. My view is that if a player being an All-American in college (which I couldn't tell you about any current NFL player based on my general knowledge right now since it's entire irrelevant to an NFL player's professional career) is "notable" enough for inclusion in the lead, then so should when a player was drafted (or not) into the league. A player's draft round could very well influence their entire career; a player drafted lower than they expected (i.e. not the first round) may have a chip on his shoulder over the course of his entire career and wind up in the HOF because of that. Same goes with first rounders who relied on their draft round as evidence of good play and became busts, and same goes with late round and undrafted players. Eagles 24/7 (C) 01:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

First-rounders definitely, second-rounders maybe, sixth-rounders who have had HOF careers in Boston absolutely, 23rd-rounders who played for Lombardi and won two NFL Championships, well, probably so. Third, fourth and fifth-rounders—why? Since when does the 250-word PFHOF bio text determine the formatting of our Wikipedia bio articles?

BTW, the PFHOH bios for Otto Graham, Charley Trippi and Y.A. Tittle, among others, don't mention their draft history in main body text, if at all. They were all first-rounders. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:05, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Graham served in the military immediately after being drafted and didn't play for the Lions, Trippi has his draft information in the bio, and Tittle also didn't play for the Lions. The point is that the media typically mention a player's draft information in short biographies, and we base our articles typically on the weight the media puts on certain information. Eagles 24/7 (C) 03:32, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. In a random search of Google News articles about Cooper Carlisle, what percentage of them mention that he was drafted in the fourth round? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 03:49, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Looking at Google News Archives (free only for this), gives this search. Discounting articles from his Gator days and trivial mentions, first result: draft information mentioned, second result: no, third: no, fourth: no, fifth: yes, sixth: yes. Eagles 24/7 (C) 03:59, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming you played it straight, and that's a relatively random sample. If representative of mid-rounders, that would suggest about a 50% rate of draft mentions in a sample of articles. Might be enough for me to move it down my priority list of "lead reform" items. I may play with some Google News searches myself before I finish the rough draft of the RfC. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:06, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Dirtlawyer1. You have new messages at Bgwhite's talk page.
Message added 06:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Bgwhite (talk) 06:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Birth country

Well, I get the impression that Template:Infobox basketball biography has to follow the generic Template:Infobox person. Anyway, I could live without USA in the infobox, it's only a minor detail. Cheers! — MT (talk) 15:53, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

There is a discussion regarding the use of the birth_place parameter in {{Infobox basketball biography}} that you are invited to participate at Template_talk:Infobox_basketball_biography#Format_of_birth_place.—Bagumba (talk) 17:04, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the head's up, Bagumba. I definitely have some opinions on point, mostly in line with your own. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Steve Smith

An IP actually added that a few minutes prior, I reverted him, and he added it back again just before your edit. Eagles 24/7 (C) 03:27, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Olympic trials

What would be a correct name for the event then? 108.225.116.129 (talk) 01:16, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

They are simply and most commonly called the "U.S. Olympic Trials" or "U.S. Olympic Team Trials" (see, e.g., [1]). Separate trial events are held for each sport that involves individual competition. The other team sports have various methods for selecting their members. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:25, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but wouldn't that title be too broad? Can't other sports also have their trials called "U.S. Olympic Trials" or "U.S. Olympic Team Trials"? I don't know if there are but that could be a problem I can see from naming a future article (which I plan to create) those names. Philipmj24 (talk) 01:42, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Philip, yes, it's true that the other sports' trial events are also called the "U.S. Olympic Trials." If you want to create a specific article for the U.S. Olympic swimming trials, I would suggest you follow this pattern: "United States Olympic Trials (track and field)." Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 01:47, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I will follow with that precedent. Philipmj24 (talk) 01:49, 29 March 2012 (UTC)