User talk:DGG/Archive 72 Jan. 2013

                                       ARCHIVES

DO NOT ENTER NEW ITEMS HERE--use User talk:DGG

Barnstars, Awards, etc.

Reminders

Topical Archives:
Deletion & AfD,      Speedy & prod,        NPP & AfC,       COI & paid editors,      BLP,                              Bilateral relations
Notability,               Universities & academic people,       Schools,                       Academic journals,       Books & other publications
Sourcing,                Fiction,                                               In Popular Culture      Educational Program
Bias, intolerance, and prejudice

General Archives:
2006: Sept-Dec
2007: Jan-Feb , Mar-Apt , M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D 
2008: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2009: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2010: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2011: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2012: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2013: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2014: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2015: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2016: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2017: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2018: J, F, M , A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2019: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2020: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2021: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2022: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O, N, D
2023: J, F, M, A, M, J, J, A, S, O

 

            DO NOT ENTER NEW ITEMS HERE--use User talk:DGG

Hello, DGG. You have new messages at VernoWhitney's talk page.
Message added 02:07, 1 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Your take is wanted on this template discussion

Happy new year! I came to realize your librarian background when I saw your comments on a AfD talk page. There is a discussion to properly rename the Template_talk:Primary_sources#Propose making the contents match the title so as not to conflate the issue of using primary sources and the issue of lacking third-party sources. I hope that you can express your view there. --Hanteng (talk) 06:55, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Bayport Fire Department

Not that I don't understand your reasons for deleting the Bayport Fire Department article, but I'd like to see it revived temporarily, just so I could add the info to the Bayport, New York article, and possibly redirect it. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 13:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

It had only been deleted according to WP:PROD, proposed deletion, and these are deleted because nobody has objected. Had you objected during the 7 days it would not have been be deleted, but there is no real deadline-- our policy is that we restore it later on any good faith request, so I have done so. I personally do not see anything that makes for notability, but I am not going to nominate it for deletion. Anyone else may, of course, and what will happen is unpredictable; we have not really been consistent with respect to articles of fire departments. . It would help to have some additional references. In the book which is the only 3rd party reference, is it covered only on that one page? If it is covered over a range of pages, indicate this; it will help. DGG ( talk ) 04:47, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I didn't know you restored it. Thanks. Now I'm going to have to work on merging it with the Bayport, NY article. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 06:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

PRSA

Just an FYI - I've started an edit-warring discussion on an ongoing issue where you were previously involved. [1] CorporateM (Talk) 13:48, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

−

Re: Center for Economic and Policy Research (PRODded, now AFD)

− The name happens to denote the most respected think tank in the UK and a research institute at Stanford University. The first hit I saw at Google Scholar or Books noted the reader's being puzzled at a CERP working paper being written by a political economist from the only Marxist department in the UK, before he realized that it was a US CERP. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

About: Deleting Articles for creation/MindMatrix

Hello David,

Please reinstate the article, as I don't have that version in a word doc. I directly edited on Wiki. I will work on the required changes and try again.

Thanks again for the prompt and detailed reply. It shed a lot of light on the issue.

Pittsburghprincess (talk) 07:43, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Older message

Hello David,

This is in regards to deletion of my submission about my company. I did receive a note that it was rejected owing to copyright infringement and I was in talks with that editor to find out where and why was a copyright infringement since the site was referenced and I am the official content writer for the company. I was about to work on fixing it post holidays. Today,I noticed that you have deleted the page and I was really surprised and sad to lose all content. Could you tell me why it was deleted AFTER being reject anyway? Also, why was it a copyright infringement, when I have the rights to my website content (I am the content writer for my company) and even though I never used any text verbatim?

I need to get the page up ASAP. Please Help!!!

Happy new year...by the way!

Thanks!

Pittsburghprincess (talk) 11:09, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I can understand your frustration after working on this for such a long period, and receiving so many routine notices that do not actually explain the specific problems, but refer instead to some over-complication guideline pages. However, I work here predominantly with this sort of article, and I will explain it to you:

WP strictly respects copyright; we do not keep copyvio in any part of Wikipedia. If an Article for Creation is rejected for copyvio, it must be removed altogether. Close paraphrase is considered copyvio. To avoid it, it is necessary to change not just the words, but the arrangement into sentences and the sequence of ideas.

However, if you own the material, it is possible for you to release it to us under a free license, but you must follow exactly the procedure at WP:Copyvio and WP:Donating copyrighted materials; be aware that these licenses give everyone in the world an irrevocable license to reuse and alter the material, even for commercial purposes.

Normally such content is promotional, being written for the web site, sand would need to be drastically rewritten, so there is no point in donating it. Your material, on the other hand, seems straightforward, and it would be possible to improve it sufficiently by normal editing, This would include

removing all the social networking sites from the external links--your own webpage is sufficient.

removing the list of companies to whom you supply products--this is considered promotional name-dropping

not using WP pages as references--we instead use them as internal links.

avoid jargon, such as "solutions"

organize the article so it has a lead paragraph A single sentence is sufficient.

pricing information is better not included; you link to a comparison article that gives prices, but such tables are a better place for it. It is better to use such words, as pricing depends on the size of the company, and is comparable to that of [[Demand generation software|similar software]]. Inote that all of the other articles listed there need some degree of improvement, and I am about to deal with the worst of them.

Wikipedia articles must show notability by references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases, but very few of your references are independent. The ones from Yahoo News and optimum online, for example, are reprinted there from PRWeb, a site that, as the name indicates, is dedicated to publishing press releases, and one of the references is directly from PRWeb. The sellmorenow site, although calling itself a review, seems to have reprinted your web site and similar material unchanged. You seem to have only one that seems clearly independent, from the Post-Gazette on Sept 28, 2003; I am not sure about the undated PGH Tech news article: it seems to refer to a product that you no longer provide, and it seems to be a local informal publication whose reliability may be doubted. So there is potential for an article if you can find another good reference.

If you want, I am willing to restore it, and tag it appropriately pending permission, but you'd still have to fix the problems, so I my advice is that you will find it easier doing it over. DGG ( talk ) 03:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Tomorrow's Company→User:Sladen/Tomorrow's Company

Hello DGG, could you undelete Tomorrow's Company to my userspace so that I can have a look over it. I just spent a couple of months working with a photographer to release File:Richard-Brown-Eurostar-and-Mark-Goyder-Tomorrows-Company.jpg under a suitable licence; the left-hand half of which I've used as File:Richard-Brown-Eurostar.jpg for the Richard Brown (transport) article; I had a mental note to also add the right-hand half to the Tomorrow's Company article (now deleted in the interim). —Sladen (talk) 10:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

moved. Check also earlier versions--I undeleted the entire history. I'll mention that a key problem with the article is the unsourced claims of being exceptionally important. The sources in the article, as said at the AfD are either self published or the speeches of their founder or mere mentions. Their web page calls them a "global think tank"; such sources as I can find call them a consultancy. I suspect they might perhaps be best characterized as an advocacy organization. Their claimed connection with the RSA seems to be that they were originally inspired by a talk there by a distinguished person. The section of "membership" is link spam. See also the article on Corporate Responsibility Group which I am thinking of sending to AfD. DGG ( talk ) 16:46, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

• nod*. Concur; I'll have a dig around at a future point, and if I can't fix it I'll probably come back you to unmove and redelete it. Ta! Sladen (talk) 20:13, 8 December 2012 (UTC)—

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/David A. Schauer

Good arguments. Bearian (talk) 17:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

NABJ hall of fame

Good call there, thanks.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 02:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jonathan Lipow

Hi DGG,

Are you still reviewing this submission? If so, I'll leave it. If not, I'll re-queue it. Best Pol430 talk to me 17:34, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

thanks for reminding me. It was copied from his page at IMDB,so I deleted it and left a warning for both of the ip editors who submitted it. I should have checked that immediately. DGG ( talk ) 18:47, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd failed to spot it as well if that helps ;-) Pol430 talk to me 19:02, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi DGG,

I just found out that my article on Jonathan Lipow was deleted due to copyright infringement from the imdb website. For what it's worth, I authored the biography on imdb so I was in fact using my own work. That aside, I would like to resubmit the article and will prepare a draft that will be far easier to differentiate. Thank you for your time and attention. ES — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.128.21 (talk) 09:33, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

You'd have to rewrite in any case, as the article was not suitable for WP. First of all, a suitable page will be best written by someone without [[WP:Conflict of Interest|]--pbe aware of the difficulties. Second, a Wikipedia article needs to show notability with references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases. IMdB can be used for the facts of his career, but the presence of an article about him there does not show notability, nor can it be relied on for biographical details. After all, you wrote it yourself, so how do you know? Is it based on his own press releases, or what he told you? Those are not good sources. The material presented as references just gives a list of the films and games where he has been an actor. The one which looks like it might be a bio is the one from voiceovertimes--but reading it, I see it is about other people--Lipow himself had to add a reader's comment that he was in the act also.

What you need is published reviews of his performances. This is a rather high bar for voice actors, and it is difficult to write an article about a voice actor that will not be deleted from Wikipedia, unless the individual is one of the very best known. If you have good published sources, try again--but if you do not, there's no point in trying, for it will be impossible to write an viable article. DGG ( talk ) 15:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Seeking your opinion

I recently ran across this AfD and I'm looking for your opinion. From what I can tell, there have been a few articles written about the person regarding their death at the age of 108. I feel like I've seen similar AfDs brought up throughout the years but don't remember their common outcome and couldn't find any mention of age-related AfDs at WP:OUTCOMES. Looking through old AfDs about centenarians and lists of centenarians, the outcome seems to be mixed. I think WP:ONEEVENT applies but I don't feel strongly about that. I've generally found that you are able to focus on the real intention of this encyclopedia which in this case, is probably all that we have to fall back on (unless I've missed something). Again, I'm looking for your opinion. I don't know how to ask without looking as though I'm canvassing. I don't care what you !vote for, if you decide to !vote. I'm just looking for an opinion that may differ from my own. OlYeller21^Talktome 05:17, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

there is no common outcome, except that the article is usually deleted if the sources are not particularly convincing. I do not think the community has a consensus; even just for myself, I do not have a consistent personal opinion. As I do not know what to say in any given case, you're hardly canvassing; if I judged, I would judge by my own impression of the merts at the time. In borderline cases, if there is something you want to do or not do, with enough experience one can find a rule or interpretation to include or delete it. In the Talmud, a student asks. why does are the rejected minority views included in detail, as well as the settled law, which is what a Rabbi has to know? There are, as usual there, several answers, but I like best is so that if sometime it shall seem necessary to make a special case to avoid a disastrously unreasonable result, there will be a precedent. (There is another answer I think might apply here more often: so that we can show our love for God's Law by arguing about it.)

The wording of ONE EVENT is capable of being applied narrowly or broadly depending upon the result that is desired. if someone is the oldest person in wherever at 106, and lives another year, is that two events? What age is so notable that it it in the category of historic records that are of general significance? I would object to anyone adding an article for the oldest living graduate of their high school. and we're not Believe it or not, that includes anything that can be made into a record by using sufficient odd or restrictive conditions. But where it's unusual enough that people might reasonably look in an encyclopedia, we should include it. The reader interest should be the rule in addition to the sources. It will still be a matter of judgment, but it's at least judging a relevant parameter. DGG ( talk ) 06:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

About my last message

As i can quote from the page you listed here you go. A5. Transwikied articles. Any article that consists only of a dictionary definition that has already been transwikied (e.g., to Wiktionary), a primary source that has already been transwikied (e.g., to Wikisource), or an article on any subject that has been discussed at articles for deletion with an outcome to move it to another wiki, after it has been properly moved and the author information recorded. the article in question falls into this therefore it should be deleted. Pure Awesomeness Commonly called Evoogd20 16:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with your redirect at [2] I was trying to think of the best redirect myself earlier this day, because it seemed the best way of dealing with the situation, but you found a good one before I did. DGG ( talk ) 02:31, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Obituary

DGG - Thank you for your clarification of Paul Pojman's obituary. Do you believe that obit provides the notability to survive AfD? I noticed you did not vote so I am unsure what your overall opinion is on the question of notability. Your views are always welcome as I consider your opinions at a higher value than most. PeterWesco (talk) 19:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

First Welsh Legislative Counsel

I think First Welsh Legislative Counsel might be another COI candidate. Am I being over-zealous? Biscuittin (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

there's a difference. The other article was entered by a representative for the government body itself as a one-off; this and many other articles were entered by an ed.who seems to be systematically adding articles for Welsh Conservatives, but other articles also. I listed this one for G11, and another admin deleted it. The real problem is that everything he adds on these individuals seems to be mainly a copyvio from their party campaign literature. At present, many of them are now in the National Assembly and therefore unquestionably qualified for an article, so i do not want to delete the articles totally. I've looked at a few, and stubbified to the basic political facts. I will either clean them all myself, or take it to the appropriate place for a general examination, which is Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations. (The ed. is currently almost inactive, so there's no point in blocking to prevent future violations.) You seem to have found a long-standing problem, and it's very helpful that you picked it up. Until a few years ago we were pretty careless about this, and we have a lot to catch up. Any more you find, check the contributor; if it is an isolated article just tag it; if it looks like more than an isolated article, let us know. I can't say I enjoy doing this sort of clean up, but it has to be done. DGG ( talk ) 03:42, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Article not Accepted on BPaas

Dave:

You declined saying, "You need references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases." I have reference Gartner and Forrester. These are the biggest, most respected independent, advisory firms in the world of information technology. Every company from IBM to HP through CSC, Infosys and TCS have BPaaS offerings. You need to seriously reassess this declination! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgrbengal (talk • contribs)

The first was a mere definition; the second the listing of the word in a table of a report. What is required is substantial coverage. Possibly the subject is notable, but there is no information in the present article to show it. The purpose of AfFC is to help people write articles that will be acceptable, and avoid the situation that the article will be moved to mainspace only to be deleted. What you need to do is not to submit it, but to add material.This is not a dispute between you & me--I'm here to help you get a good article. DGG ( talk ) 03:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Dave: Understood and appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tgrbengal (talk • contribs) 22:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Feedback: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calman_Shaw

DGG - Many thanks for your feedback on my article for John Calman Shaw. I have tried to implement your advice. Could you please review the article again and let me know your thoughts. Regards,

Gomach (talk) 13:10, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:ANI courtesy notification

Hi, DGG. I hope you had a great holiday season. This is a courtesy notice that I have mentioned you in passing in a discussion at ANI. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Robert Agostinelli and User:Spacevezon. Best wishes, — Dianna (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Stone marimba

Hello DGG. I noticed your interest in this article in its revision history. Here's an addition I made to it:

"A stone marimba housed at the Musée de l'Homme is possibly the oldest-known musical instrument on the planet."

This is quite an assertion of topic significance and importance. Northamerica1000^(talk) 04:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

yes, it takes care of the suggestion that these were all minor recent inventions. As usual, people here would rather argue than do some research. That's of course pretty much true for the world in general, but it it's the opposite approach to that needed to make an encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 05:48, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I've suggested in the past that WP:BEFORE should be emphasized more or possibly made mandatory, particularly for source searching. Every time I've brought it up, the notion has been nixed in one way or another. I recall one editor stating that it will never be made mandatory. While there are many topics that are quite worthy of deletion, some are not. Check out this discussion I initiated back in February 2012: Checks and Balances in the Articles for Deletion nomination Process (you're mentioned there). I've noticed significant improvement lately at AfD in which nominations are more accurate relative to topic/article suitability for Wikipedia. This is part of the reason I resigned from ARS back in early November 2012, along with tiring of being typecasted and stereotyped per membership in one WikiProject, a desire to simplify my presence on Wikipedia, and other reasons. At my relatively recent RfA, I was criticized at times based upon membership in ARS and for performing ARS types of editing, and when I resigned, some then opposed adminship because I resigned. Thus, regarding adminship relative to ARS, involvement in the project is a lose/lose prospect. At any rate, hopefully this trend of increased reliability in AfD nominations continues. Northamerica1000^(talk) 07:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure you know you are preaching to the choir. For at least the last 5 years I've urged that Before be mandatory when it applies. I think this could be best done by making it automatic as part of a required dialog. It is not likely to happen any time soon. We have made some improvements: there's a general acceptance that merge closes can be enforced (but we still have to get it accepted that there has to be a substantial merge unless otherwise specified) , there's an increasing number of types of articles where criteria other than the GNG can be used not just as an additional factor but an alternative--including now geographic places, there's a general refusal to close as delete when there is no substantial participation in the discussion, there's usually agreement that the GNG must be modified in situations of cultural bias, and, most important, there's a de facto practice of not permitting over rapid re-nominations. There's a general acceptance of compromise not just for schools but for fiction and for several types of athletic notability. There's less of a bias against academic topics. On the other hand, there is no acceptance that losing candidates of major parties in national elections are notable, there is not yet acceptance of a compromise on merge not delete for product articles, there is strong prejudice against many topics that some people think unimportant, and an even stronger prejudice against people or organizations connected with fringe movements, there's an absurd overuse of One Event in not just BLPs but all types of articles on current topics, and the GNG is not recognized yet as being an outworn stopgap (acceptance of this is the way to solve the BEFORE problem--if we were dependent more upon objective factors of notability related to the subject not the sources, it would be less critically important)

Some of this is the realization that our main problem now is not people wanting to write articles on topics of no importance. Our main problems now are plagiarism/copyvio and promotionalism. for plagiarism/copyvio, There is not really agreement on what type of paraphrase is acceptable, but there is better detection of the blatant cases of direct copying. For promotionalism, I think there's agreement that we need to tighten and enforce our standards Myself, I am much more willing to delete completely rather than rewrite if a promotional article is of borderline importance, especially if the editor shows obvious COI , most especially the COI of a paid editor. DGG ( talk ) 16:04, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Hey now, this is quite the treatise. I'm all for merges when appropriate except when they're used to restrict content, such as when content is supposedly merged and then a redirect occurs, but in actuality no merge of sourced/verified content occurs and the process simply results in a redirect. Yes, people can be very subjective regarding topic notability, and oftentimes will base notability on what they feel is notable, rather than basing it upon the availability of reliable sources about a topic. There will probably never be a full-blown resolution to this, because it's part of human nature to be subjective. People have varying beliefs and values, which are interchangeable and can affect one-another. For example, if one believes that a particular topic is not notable, (even when it actually is, per various notability guidelines), they then may value it less. I sometimes like to point out how Wikipedia has an article for almost every episode of The Simpsons, Futurama, etc., yet continues to have significant gaps in the coverage of scientific topics. This is due in part to the influence of mass media upon people's values and beliefs. Sometimes people place a higher value on topics that are easily available and that they enjoy, such as television shows. Sometimes people develop greater values toward things that are broadcast toward them, such as TV shows, songs, etc. I have no problem with this, of course, it's just how it is oftentimes.

Copyright is law, so of course it's of the utmost importance for copyright violations to not occur anywhere in Wikipedia. After lots of research, I've significantly improved my abilities to detect copyvios; it's a shame to be scolded for not detecting the copyvio of another editor when working at AfC, while the editor that actually performed the copyvio isn't even notified about it by the scolder. This deters people from contributing at AfC. I now utilize many additional various checks in addition to the ones I was already performing in hopes to find all of them, but of course, they will unfortunately sometimes slip through, even if hundreds of checks are performed.

Promotionalism is unfortunate, but likely to continuously occur ad infinitum, because many companies want a page on Wikipedia, and it's in their interest for the information to reflect positively upon their entity. It's important for information about companies and products to be presented objectively, including any negatives/criticisms, etc., and the information should be non-promotional. I recently created the new WikiProject Brands, which encompasses all articles in the Brands, Products by brand and Brand management categories, and their sub-categories. Check it out, and please consider joining! After reading your treatise above, I just expanded the project's goals on its main page to include "Maintaining objectivity and neutral point-of-view in brand-related articles." Northamerica1000^(talk) 06:20, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) In my view, this is an important statement: "it's in their interest for the information to reflect positively upon their entity"

I try to convince companies it's in their interest to have a neutral page. The better Wikipedia equips me to say this genuinely (and for it to actually be true) the more equipped I am to do a good job by Wikipedia.

For us to spend our time cleaning up after spammers is sometimes an improvement to that specific page, but encourages bad behavior and is a negative overall. CorporateM (Talk) 14:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Whether to clean is always a dilemma, but it the article is basically strong enough to pass AfD, there's no alternative. If we started rejecting articles for fixable promotionalism alone , we'd end up rejecting the work of too many well-intentioned amateurs. ::::What I really want to do is to teach the spammers how to do it properly, but many refuse to learn, or are too fixed in the way to be capable of learning, and in any case it takes much more time and effort than simply rewriting it myself. After trying to tell them the things to avoid, I've tried also specifying some specific things as examples to make it clearer-- but then only those things get fixed, not the other examples of the same thing; I've more lately been trying the device of also fixing part of the article as an example--but the usual result has been that the other half doesn't get fixed adequately. I have bee asked to look at many articles multiple times without substantial improvement, and the same can be seen at AfC , or at resubmission after speedy or AfD . I see no solution if we continue our present basic rules. Either we must abandon NPOV, or change the principle that anyone can edit. The first step is to require registration, and the second is to require identification, with an escape mechanism for doing this privately for those it a situation where they can not edit freely. The alternative is become a web directory,and letting some other group of people start an encyclopedia with standards for quality. DGG ( talk ) 16:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC) .

That is probably a better attitude (convert rather than push away). You are gracious for spending your time teaching, even to those that may be less thankful. I am disappointed PRs do not show the same enthusiasm to do excellent work here as we do in other aspects of our work. CorporateM (Talk) 21:34, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker): Reverting to the original section heading ... I've proposed a merge of Stone marimba into Lithophone as I can't see a difference between the two subjects! (And added a mention of the Musical Stones at Ruskin's home Brantwood while I was there). PamD 19:12, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I will check some better sources for musical instruments at NYPL-Performing Arts when I'm there as Wikipedian in Residence on Thursday and see what is and is not considered to fall under that description,and whether there is specific information to justify discussing the various instruments in that class separately. (I see there is plenty of information for the Musical Stones, but unfortunately essentially all of that extensive article turns out to be a copyvio from their web site, and I've marked it for deletion as such. ) It's notable enough to be worth a rewrite from the information there, and if anyone wants the additional references listed, I can send them. DGG ( talk ) 19:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Just to avoid confusion: there are two sets of Musical Stones in Cumbria. The Musical Stones of Skiddaw at Keswick Museum (about which the copyvio article was created), and the "21st century version of Ruskin’s slate lithophone" at Brantwood! PamD 22:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

And indeed Grove Music Online's "Lithophone" article says "Some of the most remarkable lithophones in existence are to be found in the English Lake District.", and it appears that Keswick Museum has, or has had, more than one set. Might have a go at the article some time. PamD 23:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

If you think you can fix it - I'll lay off. BO | Talk 17:06, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail!

Hello, DGG. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Kurtis ^(talk) 10:24, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm assuming you've read my message, then? Kurtis ^(talk) 21:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

yes, but I have not yet finished writing my reply. I deal with email once a day, only, to keep it from taking over my life, as it has done to so many of my friends and associates. DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand. It's fine, I can be patient. =) Kurtis ^(talk) 06:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Mohammed Ahmed Al Mahmood

Hi DGG, It's been a while since DC. Why did you accept this BLP which is completely lacking any citations from AFC ? BO | Talk 11:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Carelessness; I assuming the link at the bottom documented it. But, as it turns out, what it does document is that he is not the current ambassador to Germany. I fixed that at least, with a ref., and will check to see if I can find something from when he was. (You may not agree, but I consider official reliable sources sufficient to document a BLP, and that Ambassador is one of the categories of people considered notable without the explicit need of secondary sources. I thank you for notifying me--it is unfortunately true that with time, one can get careless & the fact that this was not merely deficient but wrong makes for a good lesson. DGG ( talk ) 20:38, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Re I've removed the reference - since it does not support the fact it is attached to and offers a bad lesson to newcomers. I think that you are missing an important point about role of WP:N in this articles. This is a Bio of a living person and therefore requires a higher standards The role WP:N plays in this is it grantees that sources exist which can discuss the subject in detail and can be verified by one and all (with help of translations). I have found four articles in HighBeam mentioning "Mohammed Ahmed Al Mahmood" as a German ambassador but they support no other fact in this article... so we cannot be certain anything about this person is true and passing this uncensored article as bonne-fide is a lapse of policy when we should remove everything which is unsourced. Accordingly I've removed the reference and suggest you re-prodded per norm or return it to AFC. From my point of view the only article supported by the sources I located would be "Mohammed Ahmed Al Mahmood was ambassador to UAE until he was replaced by Juma Mubarak Al Junaibi in 2012". Finally I humbly apologize BO | Talk 10:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue on the basis of notability here, not when I'm at the disadvantage of having made a total blunder by taking something on appearances. I intend to try to fix it, but if you think it best not to wait, go ahead and delete as much as you think necessary. (Where I hope to find something is previous versions of the embassy web page.) DGG ( talk ) 04:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

I did the merge contents

[3], but I don't remember what should be done to the talk page and the redirect syntax, would you mind doing that for me? Thank you. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 17:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll get there tonight and clean up, if nobody does it before that. Thanks. I am very reluctant to do a merge on a topic about which I was ignorant, even when what to do seems obvious. DGG ( talk ) 19:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)19:43, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Robbie Bullough deletion

In your opinion, why do you think that Robbie Bullough should be deleted? Thanks. Ashbeckjonathan. Ashbeckjonathan 21:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

as I said before, because he is merely a reporter for a college tv station, which is not a position I consider notable. If I were to analyze in more detail... I could find even worse problems. Looking at the final sentence I see "Bullough hopes to eventually move on from BYUtv and get hired at ESPN, CBS, FOX, or another major sports broadcasting group, but until another company takes interest in him, he is happy to call games for BYUtv and happy that his family back home in Indiana can see him. The first part of that sentence, which I put in italics, is an equivalent to the phrase "not yet notable" . the sentence viewed as a whole and especially the last part, which I underlined, is promotionalism, with the personal sort of appeal characteristic of bad press releases: it is of no interest to an encyclopedia whether his family home in Indiana can see him. Removing the sentence won't solve the problem: when he does become notable, an article on him would need to be completely rewritten from scratch.

But if you are asking why this sort of thing bothers me, and why I do not just ignore it, while it's true I tend to pass over borderline notability, but not when blended with promotionalism: WP can no longer ignore promotionalism, which is threatening to be destructive to the encyclopedia. DGG ( talk ) 01:24, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Deletion review

I was a bit surprised at your comments on the deletion review. Don't worry, I'm not offended or anything, in fact I thought you had a good point or two in there, but I got the distinct feeling from your comments that you felt I was not experienced enough to be trusted to close a discussion, even a difficult one. Was that your intent? Do you really think a Delete could have come out of that consensus? I guess what I'm saying is that I get the feeling that my close would have been perfectly acceptable, if I were an admin, and if that's true, it's a terrible thing to say about the system. The mop isn't supposed to be anything special. There are admins with FAR less experience than I have, and yet, it seems as if they had closed the discussion there would have been zero resistance. That is not how Wikipedia is supposed to be. Do you feel that there is any bias against NACs? I've never wanted to be an admin, but I'm beginning to think I should go for it just so that my closes aren't second-guessed every time I do one. It's very weird. I'm Identified, trusted with all sorts of responsibilities, including account creation, and yet it's as if i can't be trusted to close the occasional discussion. it's very perplexing to me. :) --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 04:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It is very hard to recognize one's own limits, and the only way I know mine is when people tell me I've got them wrong. Normally, I do not persistently defend a decision of mine that is seriously contested, but explain it once, and let others make their own judgment and say what they need to. The point wasn't just the technicality of being an admin; adminship is supposed to be based upon consistently right judgment, which is not just based on time, but the knowledge & recognition of what are important issues. There are many I stay away from myself, because I know they're about unresolved issues to which I haven't paid enough attention to judge properly. I think one of the factors on bringing it Del Rev was the number of disputes on your closes. Account creation is much less sensitive than disputed AfDs, which, next to disputed blocks, are the hardest routine decisions anyone has to do here. DGG ( talk ) 06:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, DGG, for that. I think I understand your comment on the Deletion review better. I liked the way it was closed, he took a very middle ground (I'll have to leave him a nice note about that while I'm thinking about it). There is no doubt in my mind that were I an admin, these things would be going easier. In otherwords, there DOES seem to be something special about the mop, which is a shame because there isn't supposed to be. I can remember when Wikipedia wasn't like this. Oh well, I guess all things change (Hopefully for the better!) I've never wanted to be an admin, and don't really want to be one now, but sometimes it looks like the only way to do some of the work that needs to be done. Anyway, thanks for lending an ear and sorry if I got a little "ranty". I really appreciate your advice and input on this. Be well. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 21:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stone marimba

This is not meant as a challenge, a critisim or a complaint. Consider it an academic question about processes here at wikipedia. Your close was probably the best close of the afd open to the closer based on the discussion. My question is - should you be closing afds on subjects where you have removed a prod? duffbeerforme (talk) 12:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

actually, I had forgotten about the prod. Such a closing is not forbidden, though best avoided, and I would have avoided it had I remembered. But as you say, it seemed the obviously necessary immediate step, was without prejudice to any eventual decision on any of the individual articles, and didn't really take an admin. DGG ( talk ) 03:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clear reply which has sated my curiosity. duffbeerforme (talk) 14:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Ananda Marga Caryacarya (Parts 1, 2, and 3) - deletion talk

Sorry DGG I've just added on this article an official source that states: "the Ananda Marga religion includes a governance system (Ananda Marga Pracaraka Samgha or AMPS) which is set out in a sacred text called Carya Carya". The point in the deletion talk of this article was that these books are considered "sacred texts" or something very important for this spiritual movement and that is what this official document exactly states. I think that this document should be sufficient to show the adherence at the WP criteria notability at least on one ground: (3) "The book has been considered by reliable sources to have made a significant contribution to a notable motion picture, or other art form, or event or political or religious movement". What do you think? Thanks--Cornelius383 (talk) 00:51, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

DGG, you may find a little more context on the fringe theories noticeboard. bobrayner (talk) 02:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the link; I noticed there were suddenly quite of number of these sub-articles at issue--the contents of the Prabhat Ranjan Sarkar navbox is a good indication of the extent. I hope we can find a middle ground of rational merging. DGG ( talk ) 03:07, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

By the way, it now appears that you are my sockpuppet bobrayner (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Comment on article section please?

In this section of iPhone article, I think there's synthesis there, because reading all three sources I can't establish the direct correlation that prose suggests. Prose suggests iPhone 5 not meeting sales expectation was the primary contributor to $30 billion loss. Sales were main factor in declining stocks "according to some experts" again suggests there's a fairly certain correlation.

Do you think the prose is reflective of what the sources read and do you see close enough correlation to warrant inclusion in an article on iPhone 5? Cantaloupe2 (talk) 13:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Like most such problems, this can be resolved by adding more sources. Try for some later than October, after there had been time for a better perspective. Sales performance is such an obvious factor in financial results, that some of this is just common sense. DGG ( talk ) 03:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Would you say this source compliments the current article? Bloomberg The quote, "Apple Inc. (AAPL) shares dropped below $500 for the first time since February after Citigroup Inc. (C) reduced its rating for the stock on concern that demand for the iPhone 5 is slowing" supports the fact that shares are declining because of iPhone 5 sales. Also keep in mind that the article entry specifically refers to the period after the iPhone 5 was release not several months after, from what I've noticed Apple stocks have continuously declined since the launch and various reasons other than iPhone 5 sales could have caused it during that entire 3 month period after the initial 30bil loss. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 03:21, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

what gives anyone the idea that this is a field in which I am an expert, or that this is a place to argue the issues? What I do know is that analysts' opinions are always a matter of opinion, and on any financially important issue there will be a diversity of them, so our summary of them is not necessarily usefully discussed in terms of OR. How much connection is there between analysts' opinion and financial reality, anyway?

Like anyone who reads any technology news at all, I've noticed in passing dozens upon dozens of articles. I was amused to see Bloomberg's characteristic newspaper style headline, saying it "dropped" below 500 in what turns out to be before-market trading, not where it closed. I wish our quotation style did not emphasize headlines, which are never written by the author of the article and always stress the dramatic, not the proven. The most useful thing about the Bloomberg article is that it reports the opinions of several individual analysts. And, again tho no expert, I hope I am financially literate enough to know the difference between corporate financial results, market gain or less, and a loss in "potential sales" . I am also aware of the difference between "concern" that demand is slowing, and any actual slowing of demand. I can also read a market chart, and I would not characterise the subsequent stock movement to date as continual decrease, but an up and down tendency, just as JP Morgan legendarily said was to be expected of the market in general--though a statement either way is my OR interpretation, no doubt a reliable source could be found for anything and everything in a field like this. Coming back to WP, I think the place for this entire matter is in the article on the company. Let those who are interested follow it up there or where they wish, not here. I remain a spectator. DGG ( talk ) 04:04, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Well the reason why we decided to ask for the opinion another editor, preferably someone who is as neutral as you, is that I (maybe even we) realised we have different opinions regarding the inclusion of content and to prevent long tedious arguments, it was best to consult others. Now regarding the content, many reasons are cited for why stocks are declining over the pass month but the most prominent reason is sales of device, whether it be iPads or iPhones. Hence I think a correlation exist and the previous wording or current wording of the section is correct and should be included in the article. As you said the market fluctuates, however massive drops of 8% over less than a week or so for one of world's largest companies is generally attributed to a reason and many source have explored these reasons. I must have confused you and myself when I said what I said above. I was referring to the wording prior to the change - "Subsequently after the announcement of the iPhone 5, Apple stocks rose to $705.07,[104][105] however stocks soon fell to $652.59. and a loss of $30 billion in revenue occurred primarily due to[disputed – discuss][improper synthesis?] pre-order sales not meeting the expectations that were set due to the "hype". Despite the large amount of publicity surrounding the Apple Maps issue, sales were the main contributors to the decline in stocks[disputed – discuss][improper synthesis?] according to some analysis.[106]." If you wish to not be involved in the discussion, I'll continue on the talk page. YuMaNuMa ^Contrib 04:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

It is easier to deal with now I know the context, since there is a standard technique: Just word that sentence

X days after after the announcement of the iPhone 5, Apple stocks rose to $705.07.[104][105] However stocks soon fell to $652.59 by Whenever . and a loss of $30 billion in revenue occurred. The analyst whomever writing in wherever gave the opinion that this was due to pre-order sales not meeting the expectations that were set due to the "hype" and that despite the large amount of publicity surrounding the Apple Maps issue, sales were the main contributors to the decline in stock prices .[106].

Continue by giving views of other analyst and subsequent stock movements to the latest date you have. The keys are a/ to use multiple sources and b/ to put the attribution in the actual text, not the footnote. This is the best method for any controversial or disputed point anywhere. If still challenged, put in an actual quote, either in the footnote or if necessary he text. Do not quote the headline, which is already there, find the best representative summary. The discussion should now shift to what other analysts' comments can be found. DGG ( talk ) 17:57, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Buzkashi Boys article

Please tell me exactly how this article violated copyright. I clearly paraphrased all information except the quotation which is undoubtedly fair use. This article is clearly encyclopedic as it currently being considered for academy award. Were there changes made to the article since I created it?--T1980 (talk) 19:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I have recreated the page with less content which is 100% paraphased. I have preemptively placed a dispute for any speedy deletion. please see the talk page for more info.--T1980 (talk) 20:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I see no objection to the present version. There will presumably be more material to add , just as you said. Try to use as wide a variety of sources as possible. Good luck with it. DGG ( talk ) 04:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Dragonlance novels

There is a mass merge proposal of about 40 articles at Talk:List of Dragonlance novels. If you can find any good sources for any of these, please help! BOZ (talk) 04:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia Ambassadors update

Hi! You're getting this message because you are or have been a Wikipedia Ambassador. A new term is beginning for the United States and Canada Education Programs, and I wanted to give you an update on some important new information if you're interested in continuing your work this term as a Wikipedia Ambassador.

You may have heard a reference to a transition the education program is going through. This is the last term that the Wikimedia Foundation will directly run the U.S. and Canada programs; beginning in June, a proposed thematic organization is likely to take over organizing the program. You can read more about the proposal here.

Another major change in the program will take effect immediately. Beginning this term, a new MediaWiki education extension will replace all course pages and Ambassador lists. (See Wikipedia:Course pages and Help:Education Program extension for more details.) Included in the extension are online volunteer and campus volunteer user rights, which let you create and edit course pages and sign up as an ambassador for a particular course.

If you would like to continue serving as a Wikipedia Ambassador — even if you do not support a class this term — you must create an ambassador profile. If you're no longer interested in being a Wikipedia Ambassador, you don't need to do anything.

Please do these steps as soon as possible

First, you need the relevant user rights for Online and/or Campus Ambassadors. (If you are an admin, you can grant the rights yourself, for you as well as other ambassadors.) Just post your rights request here, and we'll get you set up as quickly as possible.

Once you've got the ambassador rights, please set up at a Campus and/or Online Ambassador profile. You can do so at:

• Special:CampusAmbassadorProfile
• Special:OnlineAmbassadorProfile

Going forward, the lists of Ambassadors at Special:CampusAmbassadors and Special:OnlineAmbassadors will be the official roster of who is an active Ambassador. If you would like to be an Ambassador but not ready to serve this term, you can un-check the option in your profile to publicly list it (which will remove your profile from the list).

After that, you can sign on to support courses. The list of courses will be at Special:Courses. (By default, this lists "Current" courses, but you can change the Status filter to "Planned" to see courses for this term that haven't reached their listed start date yet.)

As this is the first term we have used the extension, we know there will be some bugs, and we know the feature set is not as rich as it could be. (A big wave of improvements is already in the pipeline. And if you know MediaWiki and could help with code review, we'd love to have your help!) Please reach out to me (Sage Ross) with any complaints, bug reports, and feature suggestions. The basic features of the extension are documented at Wikipedia:Course pages, and you can see a tutorial for setting up and using them here.

Communication and keeping up to date

In the past, the Education Program has had a pretty fragmented set of communication channels. We're trying to fix that. These are the recommended places to discuss and stay up-to-date on the education program:

1. The education noticeboard has become the main on-wiki location for discussion of the Education Program. You can post there about broad education program issues as well as issues with individual courses.
2. The Ambassadors Announce email list is a very low-traffic announcements list of important information all Ambassadors need to be aware of. We encourage all Ambassadors (and other interested Wikipedians) to subscribe to the list; follow the instructions on the link to add your email address.
3. If you use IRC regularly, or need to try to reach someone immediately, the #wikipedia-en-ambassadors ^connect IRC channel is the place to find me and fellow Ambassadors.

Ambassador training and resources

We now have an online training for Ambassadors, which is intended to be both an orientation about the Wikipedia Ambassador role for newcomers and the manual for how to do the role. (There are parallel trainings for students and for educators as well.)

Please go through the training if you feel like you need a refresher on how a typical class is supposed to go and where the Ambassadors fit in, or if you want to review and help improve it. If there's something you'd like to see added, or other suggestions you have for it, feel free to edit the training and/or leave feedback. A primer on setting up and using course pages is included in the educators' training.

The Resources page of the training is the main place for Ambassador-related resources. If there's something you think is important as a resource that's not on there, please add it.

Finally, whether or not you work with any classes this term, I encourage you to post entries to the Trophy Case whenever you see excellent work from students or if you have great examples from past semesters. And, as always, let students (and other editors!) know when they do things well; a little WikiLove goes a long way!

--Sage Ross (WMF) (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Could you please help?

Would be possible for you to help me?

Could you confirm whether or not whitening is being mentioned in this cite –

Abstract - http://asr.sagepub.com/content/72/6/940

Fully readable - http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~jmuniz/schwartzman2007.pdf

I made a small edit to a page a few weeks ago and I noticed that an entire section was removed from multiple different pages based on a claim that the cites did not mention a certain word. The words in question were the whitening ideology other wise known as whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento. I did not wish to comment right away because many of the cites were only abstracts and therefore not full readable. Other cites were impossible to read because they were links to book sales.

I also wanted to take time to research the subject of whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento before I commented on the subject.

After taking a few days of researching the subject I decided to point out that this word (whitening/blanqueamiento/branqueamento) was in fact mentioned more than 40 times in one cite alone. Having looked from the editing history most of the section that was removed (Blanqueamiento (whitening) racial classification) was based on this sage publication - http://asr.sagepub.com/content/72/6/940

As I said before the word that was claimed that was not being mentioned was the whitening ideology otherwise know as whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento (blanqueamiento/branqueamento mean whitening). The title of the sage publication was called does money whiten and whitening is clearly visible in the abstract.

I really do not understand how two different editors appear to have read the title does money whiten, see whitening clearly mentioned in the abstract, see clear reference to the whitening ideology, see whitening mentioned more than 40 times and than both come to the same false conclusion that whitening is not being mentioned in this sage publication –http://asr.sagepub.com/content/72/6/940

I pointed out that whitening was being mentioned more than 40 times in the sage publication and the response I got from the editor (who previously claimed whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento was not being mentioned) was rather odd.

I was told that the editor did not wish to comment at the moment as to whether or not whitening was being mentioned. I don’t understand how someone can remove an entire section from a page based on a claim that whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento was not being mentioned and than say they do not wish to comment whether this word is being mentioned or not.

It has been more than 7 days ago that I was told by this particular editor that he did not wish to comment as to whether or not whitening was being mentioned and still he/she is yet to comment.

The reason why I am asking whether or not you can confirm that the whitening ideology otherwise known as whitening or blanqueamiento/branqueamento is being mentioned in the sage publication is because the editor who seems to be claiming that whitening is not being mentioned has still yet to comment.

If you are unable to help could you direct me to somone who can?

Thanks in advance.

--CR.ROWAN (talk) 11:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

it seems to not only be mentioned in this article, but to be the specific subject of the article; I'll check the article talk page tonight to see the argument there in context of both the argument and the WP article. This particular Sage journal has a first-rate reputation. I gather the WP article in question is Race. DGG ( talk ) 17:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Your lightning talk at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia Day Feb 23

Please add your lightning talk on the Library for the Performing Arts residence experience here: Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/Wikipedia Day#Lightning Talks!--Pharos (talk) 20:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Tour of Consumer Reports' laboratories

Wow! Laboratory tour!

On Tuesday January 15 at 3pm Wikipedians are invited to join a tour of laboratories at Consumer Reports in Yonkers. If you would like to attend please RSVP at Wikipedia:Meetup/NYC/January 2013. If you have questions feel free to ask on that page or contact me on my talk page or by my office phone at 914.378.2684. Thank you. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Infobox musical artist

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Template talk:Infobox musical artist. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 07:15, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul DeMaine (2nd nomination)

You commented at his earlier AfD. PamD 07:57, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, DGG. You have new messages at The Banner's talk page.
Message added 05:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

FYI Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Rankin and Taylor

Dave - Thanks for your comments on Rankin & Taylor. I left a reply on the page. Teachingaway (talk) 19:19, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I will respond in some detail later. But meanwhile let me say that the presence of articles on non-notable firms is an indication we should remove them, not add to them, and that the presence of inadequately cited articles is not a reason to continue the practice. Many of our articles of firms of even great notability are indeed very inadequately cited--our practices in the past were very sloppy. Perhaps you might look to my specific points and fix the article a little, and I will look at it again tonight or tomorrow. Even if i do not think it sufficient, I am generally willing to move it into mainspace if you insist & it's reasonably close or borderline, and have a community decision at afd. But if you are going to do that,it helps to have the very strongest article possible; the purpose of AfC is to try to get articles improved enough first that they don't then get deleted. DGG ( talk ) 19:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Good advice. Sounds fair. Looking forward to any improvements you can suggest. Teachingaway (talk) 20:34, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I spent some time editing the language according to your suggestions (at least, I attempted to do so). I also added further references supporting each statement the article makes. In addition to the 14 NY Times articles, there are now 20 other articles from sources like the NY Law Journal, the New York Post, USA Today, Village Voice, Bloomberg, and New York Magazine. Some mention the name of the firm just once, but all discuss the firm's work in detail.

Its not a firm of international superstars, but it is a firm that regularly litigates newsworthy cases. And the firm is certainly famous among NYC bicyclists (an admittedly narrow demographic, but its my demographic). The next time Rankin & Taylor makes the paper, I think some readers might like to have a centralized repository of their previous work. Teachingaway (talk) 01:03, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

There are just three more things needed. First, do not repeat the name of the firm so frequently. Use "The firm" or "They" almost always. Second, when they are on of the firms on a case, give the names of the other firms also. Third, try to group the individual items into a few coherent paragraphs. I'll then fix up any details this weekend. DGG ( talk ) 02:25, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I made some further edits and improvements according to your suggestions. 1. "Rankin & Taylor" to "the firm" was easy. 2. Adding names of the other firms - I've started to add the names of other firms, and I believe I can dig up a few more in the next couple days. 3. Grouping items into paragraphs is more complicated, but I've taken some steps in that direction.

Again, thanks for your help. Teachingaway (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I will take a look in a day or two, and move it to mainspace if it seems reasonably OK to me. That of course doesn't prevent anyone else form sending it to AfD if they think appropriate. DGG ( talk ) 23:44, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Dave - I understand you're busy and may not have time to get back to everyone. But if you have a free moment, I'd love to get your opinion on the revised Rankin and Taylor page. No rush (I'll shoot you another reminder if I don't hear back in a week or two). Teachingaway (talk) 02:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Limo Ride

Movie info page for Limo Ride flagged as "advertising", though it matched numerous other film pages in both content and style. Speedy deletion took just over an hour. I would like to re-draft the page, if this is permissible.

Opinion of criticism section removal at Extra Credits

Hi, could you take a look at my removal of the criticism section of Extra Credits? IP's keep reinstating it. I have explained on the talkpage why I re-removed the section and I'd appreciate it if you could give me your opinion on the matter. Jarkeld.alt (Talk) 12:10, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Trade Secret Law

For my next project, I want to update trade secrets. The warning on that page notes (accurately) that there is a bias towards US law. Since I only know US law, I'd like to (1) create a separate page "U.S. Trade Secret Law", (2) import the relevant bits from the existing trade secrets page, and (3) flesh them out. Teachingaway (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any interest in "advising" on this project? Or do you know someone who specializes in legal topics? There is a "wiki project law" group, but its not particularly active (and seems especially dormant for Intellectual Property issues).

JMP

Hello, DGG. You have new messages at JMP (statistical software)'s talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Just an FYI if you're interested in taking a look at the second draft with your feedback incorporated. CorporateM (Talk) 14:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Would value your input.

I have been working on an article that your reviewed on Nov. 12, 2012. I was wondering if you would take another look for me. See - Conrad Hoffmann, Jr. I have tried to add inline citations and removed the references, as per your suggestions. I would appreciate your input as you are very experienced and I am not.

As for your other observations, Dr. Hoffmann and I do share the last name but I never met him (he died about the time I was born) and we are not blood relations. I guess I could have used an online name but I felt it was best to be honest. Thanks for your help.

S h hoffmann (talk) 22:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your help, advice, and comments. S h hoffmann (talk) 02:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:The Big Bang Theory

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:The Big Bang Theory. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 07:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I understand from your post at Talk:The Big Bang Theory that you were confused over the above request. Rather than further muddy the waters on the article's talk page, I though that I'd point out here that the confusion is likely at least partially because However whatever has changed the article after the RfC was opened, and consequently had to amend his RfC, so it's somewhat different to what he first proposed. In fact, as you may have gleaned from the talk page, this has been an ongoing problem; However whatever has been continually changing the article according to whatever he thought consensus was, regardless of whether or not consensus had been achieved, making it very difficult for any "outside" editors to follow what has been going on. Continually disrespecting WP:BRD and WP:STATUSQUO lead me to make a request at Wikipedia talk:Requests for comment#RfC confusion when it continued into the RfC, but so far nobody has commented. --AussieLegend (✉) 04:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I'm confused. I saw all the changes. All the original & originally proposed versions version was OK also,and certainly all the current ones are. You were arguing initially about whether it should be called a "show" or the term some thought more dignified, a "series". In my opinion it makes no difference at all, neither this nor any of the changes you have been disputing about. The English WP is concerned with clear straight-forward compact writing, not elegance. Those looking for examples of excellent prose style will find them elsewhere, almost entirely in publications using conventional editing practices. I see no need to judge which of the two of you is the more reasonable in general, because both of you need a break from the topic and from each other. DGG ( talk ) 06:49, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the RfC is just the tip of the iceberg. This all started with However whatever adding content that was WP:DATED, and which was subsequently removed by another editor.[4] Rather than discuss the matter on the talk page, and gain consensus for his edits, However whatever just continued changing whenever he felt the urge, but when his edits were changed, he reverted them, so it has become necessary to explain at length why a particular edit was preferred, hence the "show" vs "series" discussion, which was well into the discussion. The various proposals on the talk page are not the only ones we've seen, However whatever is continually moving the goal posts and not discussing his changes before he makes them, which makes it frustrating for other editors. As I've said, it's completely disregarding WP:BRD and it's certainly not the first time he's done this at the article.[5] --AussieLegend (✉) 17:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I know this also. You will notice I've never said you weren't right; I have no intention however of judging content about a show I've never seen. But what I am sure of is that when it gets to a stage like this, the only thing that really helps is if both parties step back. Any other course will lead to a result which will leave everyone even less satisfied. You asked for comments, and this is the advice I have to give. I'm not forcing you to take it. DGG ( talk ) 17:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Midhunappilli Shiva Temple

I see you declined the speedy A3 on the basis that "(contains content: give name , location and religion . Needs more.)". I thought that "Midhunappilli Shiva Temple is a Shiva temple located at Midhunappilli in Kerala." was pretty much a rephrasing of the article title, though I suppose "Kerala" perhaps raises it above that bar.

It's one of a mass of stubs produced by a young editor whose aim is to create 100 articles, rather than anything else: see Talk:Wandoor_Siva_Temple. I've come across a lot of them while stub-sorting. He is currently celebrating his first anniversary as an editor but I doubt that he's added a single point with a reliable source. PamD 09:00, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

this sort of thing is always a problem. In this case, particularly so, both because many or perhaps most of these seem to be likely to be actually notable, and because there are not many people here who would be able to properly source them. We have to deal with it by dealing with the person; I am giving a warning, & if necessary I am willing to do an IAR block on the basis that this damages the encyclopedia, tho I would bring it to an/i for confirmation. DGG ( talk ) 20:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Kavummuri Temple, Panamattom

Please DGG, I am requesting to you for not to delete the article Kavummuri Temple, Panamattom. This is a holy place for us, Hindus. I can't find any evidence for this article, but when you come with me in this place, I will show you temple. Kindly requested by User:Whitetararaj (talk) 17 January 2013, 16:10 (UTC)

I'd love to keep it, but there are two problems--First, since anyone can contribute to WP ,readers will have no way of knowing whether or not you are correct unless they have some references to go by. (People have in the past added both simple and elaborate hoax articles to WP, and people have changed information about real ones to false material--sometimes to play around, sometimes to see what they can get aways with, sometimes to test us whether we wi l remove the material and how quickly we will do it, sometimes to try to discredit us, sometimes to be deliberately malicious.) This principle is called Verifiability; since it is basic to the idea of being a useful encyclopedia. it has full support of everyone who participates here. Second, though I personally think that any historic temple, church or other religious institution should have an article, most people here do not agree with me, and we have not been able to agree on any better criterion than whether it is discussed in reliable sources--see WP:GEOFEAT for that guideline. If I made the rules to my liking, some things might be different, but no one individual here has any such authority--it's a community project. Neither I nor anyone can expect to participate and not follow the agreed rules.

I unfortunately must advise you I see very little likelihood of changing the guideline at this time. Your best course will be to look for someone in your community who can help you find published sources. Most areas in your country have good libraries; most have newspapers--the people who work there are generally willing to help, and generally know about Wikipedia. It's also quite possible that someone at the temple may know of what sources may exist--they do not have to be in English, but they do have to be published. When you do add material you find, be certain to rewrite it entirely from scratch in your own words--do not copy and do not use Close paraphrase. You can also take and upload a photograph--but you cannot use a previously published photograph. See WP:IUP and the pages referred to there. That will help the article, but all it can do is demonstrate that a building exists at that place, which is not sufficient. DGG ( talk ) 17:44, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello

Hi. Some time back you provided some valuable discussion relating to Confluence: The Journal of Graduate Liberal Studies. It was placed for deletion again. Looking back at your comments on the talk page, you've been able to articulate your thoughts better than I. If and when you get a chance, take a look...Thanks. Jimsteele9999 (talk) 12:50, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, I read your comments regarding the borderline notability and the fact not all publications fit into catagories and think this is an issue--however unusual--that still should be considered. But you have more proficiency here than I do....Jimsteele9999 (talk) 00:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Carolina Herrera (fashion designer)

Hi DGG - Only if you are bored, please take a look here. A new SPA is repeatedly inserting a royalty POV on this article, removing citations to NYTimes etc, in favor of blogs, replacing Michelle Obama with an obscure Portugese duchesses, and being a general nuisance. I've left messages at User_talk:TheEconomissst, and they replied at User_talk:Nixie9 to wax about how important the european perspective on classes and royalty should be to americans, etc. Anyway, I'm probably already at 3RR, so I'm looking for a wise man to intercede. I had finally cleaned this up, almost to your standard, removing store locations etc. --Nixie9 (talk) 03:59, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• It undid your reverting, which I have restored.--Nixie9 (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Missing children?

umm why u delete? their missing children for gods sake. --Fpw2kd (talk) 00:02, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

see your talk p. DGG ( talk ) 00:05, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

You have a message on my talk page. --Fpw2kd (talk) 00:16, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

re: rejection of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Doug_Moran_%28author%29

I'll grant you that there aren't as many independent sources for this as I'd like, but since when is someone who held statewide office not notable enough?? He meets the criteria for notability for politicians. Moran was Deputy Commissioner (COO) for the Virginia Department of Social Services, then Deputy Secretary of Health and Human Services for the commonwealth of Virginia. Not minor positions. His notability comes from that, not from being a book author now. Mrtraska (talk) 04:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I think WP would accept Commissioner as notable , but not deputy commissioner. There's no point in my accepting an article if it is very likely to be quickly deleted when you put it in main space. My job at AfC as to make sure that things get improved enough that we can be reasonably sure an AfC will not delete the article. (These ranks would make it , if it were national) Now, it may be that what he did there gives some special reason for notability, so I will recheck the article this weekend. Keep trying for better sources. DGG ( talk ) 06:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

C)

Carolina Herrera

Dear DGG, Thank you for your considerations. But YES, that's something about political culture. And that's also a bit relative, 'cause in NYC, for example, especially the high society, they respect the nobility, and we have many nobles living in NYC, and thus, living in high society, they're treated with respect (I'm saying respect towards their family traditions). Besides families such as Astors and Vanderbilts, that married with families of the Nobility. We've also the Miller sisters, such as Marie-Chantal, Crown Princess of Greece and Alexandra von Fürstenberg. Also Diane von Fürstenberg. Also Louis Alphonse, Duke of Anjou, of the House of Bourbon. Well, now I don't have enough time to spend showing the truth for people doctrinated as you Americans are. You Americans that think that some country in the world could born as a republic (what never happened). So I'll put some few things about her title, even being an absurd to put few, and not even in the first paragraph. And for sure put The Duchess of Cadaval. You ask me why? Well, it's because she is one of the most famous women in Portugal and a very famous woman in Europe. And because isn't just the US. And because The Duchess of Cadaval came out constantly in the social press in general, especially in the royal magazines, because, as The Duchess of Cadaval, she's the Head of the House of Cadaval, that descends of the Portuguese Royal House, and that's relative of all the European royal house, including the House of Windsor, and therefore relative of your Queen (the Queen of the Americans, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II); and she's also married with Prince Charles-Philippe d'Orléans, that's a grandson of the Count of Paris, the King of France de jure, and also very very well-known in France and Europe. Also her sister is married to the heir of Hermès (I'm sure that you American approve it more than anyone else... 'cause is a successful company, what means money money money). So, I think that you'll continue to live your fake American dream, and think that somebody, just because became a President or Senator or Entrepreneur (E in capitals YEAH), is better than everybody, and so should be well-treated, and the rest of the people don't deserve that. 'Cause a President or Senator or a successful entrepreneur deserves a good treatment, because they fought by the people and "improved society". Oh, but you Americans forgot your origins, forgot about the knights of the religious orders, such as Knights Templar, Teutonic Knights, whose members were only nobles, the ancestors of the majority of the nobility, and that without these orders, the Christians would became slaves of the Moors (see Crusades), and so the United States of America would never exist. But for you all, what's important is the money and power, and the lies of your "President" and "Senators". And so your son will be doctrinated like this, and your grandson, and your great-grandson... and so you'll continue to be subjects of the American oligarchy (families such as Rockefellers, Vanderbilts, and others...)... and you'll continue to reject your true leader and mother, sovereign in cultural terms, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Some countries that respect your true traditions we can mention Canada, Australia, New Zealand, all Commonwealth realms, and as such, countries under the Crown. Good morning. Oh, I forgot something, also you'll continue to think that republic means democracy, but the majority of the most developed countries in the world are monarchies. They're constitutional monarchies, as the United Kingdom, Spain, The Netherlands, Monaco, Australia, Canada, Japan, Sweden, New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, Liechtenstein, and others.

Regards,

--TheEconomissst (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Unlike your other examples, but Portugal is not a monarchy. Nor do all monarchies have hereditary nobility other than the monarch. I'min the past advocated for keeping article on highest level nobility of event non-rulingfamilies--sometimes I have been successful but it is never assumed here as a matter of course. But the only people where notability extends routinely to their spouses as individuals are heads of state, though, again, I've usually argued for heads of government also. I'm even aware of the social role of some of these people, andI support proportional coverage. But when you try to put the details of her husbands title in the article in three places, including the lede, and edit war to keep in the content, you're not being sensible, fpr anyone would conclude you were engaging in editing for the purpose of promoting your POV. DGG ( talk ) 06:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and don't forget that Spain is also a constitutional monarchy. So we cannot disrespect the Spanish government's tradition, and therefore we cannot disrespect the traditions of the Most Serene Spanish nobility. Glamour, my dear cowboy. And true glamour. Not glamour of a hick woman that became a "star" in "your land" (US) when is married with someone that became "HIS MAJESTY" THE PRESIDENT OF THE US AND CHIEF SUPREME OF THE AMERICAN DREAM (WE COULD SAY A FAKE DREAM OF A FAKE MORALITY). In Europe we laugh about the US moral, US mores, behavior... everything... — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheEconomissst (talk • contribs) 06:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

--TheEconomissst (talk) 06:50, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

About hereditary nobility, that's an absurd. See all the dukedoms of the United Kingdom, of Spain, of France, of Norway, ultimately, almost all the European nobility is hereditary. See the Dukedom of Westminster, the House of Alba. Please, get informed before saying those things. --TheEconomissst (talk) 06:56, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and I forgot something very important. A money and a power that even the population being doctrinated to approve, they will never have in their whole life. That's really a hole. And US thank God is coming down through this hole.

Regards, dear cowboy

--TheEconomissst (talk) 07:20, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

• DGG, I apologize for having passed the infection to your Talk page, now you know what I've been dealing with. You are truly earnest - I've taken the liberty to revert the latest gambit. I have no experience in whatever comes next, which I eagerly await. --Nixie9 (talk) 08:51, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record: Spain & the UK are examples of monarchies that have officially recognized nobility. Portugal is neither a monarchy, nor does it have officially recognized nobility. There is a difference in presumed notability. As an aside, I discovered while checking this that Canada is an example of a monarchy that has no officially recognized nobility; the only person with an official hereditary title is the Queen, though the use of courtesy titles for the Royal family is widespread. In contrast, Norway is a monarchy that has no present official nobility, except for the King and the Royal family. DGG ( talk ) 04:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

• FYI I started a 3RR notice, here[6]--Nixie9 (talk) 06:11, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013 Rankin Edits

(1) Remove all "Mr.". We refer to people by their first and last name, & after the first time, by their last name only.

• done

(2) Include all other law firms in all of the joint cases,, not just the names of the lawyer, but the firm also.

• done. Some of the other lawyers were solo practitioners, which I noted.

(3) Try to combine into fewer paragraphs.

• I combined several paragraphs and folded the smaller sections into the larger ones.

(4) Remove the displayed quote: it's advertisement.

• done

(5) In the section, "The firm represents clients in Freedom of Information Law litigation. ", I assume these two cases are meant to be representative

• added a "for example" transition to help emphasize this point.

(6). Change all "the firm represents" which is an advertisement, to "the firm has represented," which is stating the facts. Again, indicate if the instances are samples.

• Change "represents" to "has represented" - Done.
• Samples - added "for example" transition where appropriate.

• I found a few more news articles and added the references. Now 36 in total, but as you mentioned, many are about the cases and only mention the firm in passing. I feel like they still add 'something' to the firms notability, or at least some credibility to the facts stated in the article.

Again, your help so far is much appreciated. Teachingaway (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail

Hello, DGG. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

I also forgot to add my signature (I am used to it being added automatically), my apologies! -- Cheers, Riley 06:04, 18 January 2013 (UT

N&W J class (1879)

OK, sorry, I shouldn't have PRODded it. On checking, the editor who created it is an ongoing editor making proper articles with text, so might even just have forgotten to complete the article by adding text and refs. I'd been doing a lot of stub-sorting after the stub category was flooded by a bot tagging old little articles, and perhaps was getting a bit tetchy because of the size of the backlog I was ploughing through!

Anyway, I've now created a lead sentence for it, and while I was there I added it to the dab pages at Class J and N&W Class J, and added a redirect from N&W J class to that dab page! Have also dropped a note on the editor's talkpage asking him/her (am I kidding? 99% says it's a "him"!) to add a ref to their source.

I sometimes wish we had a template for not just "lead missing" but "text missing", as there's a pattern of these infobox-only articles coming through as stubs: not many, but bad for the encyclopedia ... on the other hand, I suppose I should magic up a lead sentence, so that at least there's something for Google hitlists etc to see. I think I usually do, depending on mood. PamD 09:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

If I can't find one, I think I know enough to write one, based on the very useful one we already have for "outline style, should be converted to prose".It will then need to be added to Huggle. What I'd really like to write is a template for automatically converting the most common types of infoboxes--a sort of fill-in-the-blanks type of article creation. And, just like you, if I have time and mood, I often add a lede sentence for articles like this. DGG ( talk ) 21:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Dragonlance artifacts

Hey there, at the DRV you said you would comment on the AFD if it was reopened. I think we would benefit from your comments to help clarify the issues. Thanks. BOZ (talk) 02:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

User talk:Garyrader

Hello. I believe I added appropriate references to my MusicEase article. But the response I got when resubmitted says "there's still some problems with the sources". Not really sure what is wanted then. You said to let you know if the updated version was rejected. Thanks for any help you can provide with this. User:Garyrader (talk) 13:47, 19 January 2013

I will get back to you on this later today. DGG ( talk ) 20:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I've re-reviewed he article; you will find my comments there DGG ( talk ) 03:52, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

NYU-Poly

I see that you have protected and commented on the talk-page of List of NYU Polytechnic Institute people. Many notable alumni and faculty doesn't show in the current revision. This version lists a lot more http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_NYU_Polytechnic_Institute_people&oldid=530095742. Because the page is protected, I cannot revert it. Even the version I mentioned doesn't link all alumni properly(such as the link to Robert G. Brown). There are also alumni who are not notable and should be removed. Is it possible to change it's format to that of List of Duke University people?.

Thank you and regards,--Charmpogo (talk) 14:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, the main article(Polytechnic Institute of New York University) needs a lot of cleaning, trimming and rewriting. I rewrote the introduction:

NYU-Poly new introduction--Charmpogo (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The Polytechnic Institute of New York University, often referred to as NYU Polytechnic, NYU-Poly, or Poly and formerly known as Brooklyn Poly, Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn, Polytechnic Institute of New York, Polytechnic University, is one of the 18 schools and colleges that comprise New York University (NYU). The Polytechnic Institute of New York University is located in Downtown Brooklyn in the MetroTech Center, the nation's largest urban university-industry science and technology park. Founded in 1854, the institute adopted the European polytechnic university model, and its laboratory instruction at the undergraduate and graduate levels led to close cooperation with the industry. It is one of the oldest private technology institutes in the United States, and has made contributions in the fields of electrical engineering, polymer chemistry, aerospace, and microwave engineering. NYU-Poly's financial engineering program was the second program of its kind and the first curriculum to be certified by the International Association of Financial Engineers. NYU-Poly was one of the first universities to introduce a cyber security program, and is designated as both a Center of Academic Excellence in Information Assurance Education and a Center of Academic Excellence in Research by the National Security Agency. Polytechnic is the first school in New York City to receive the designation Center of Excellence in Information Assurance Education by the U.S. National Security Agency. The first polymer science and polymer engineering programs in the U.S. began at NYU-Poly. In 1950, the NYU-Poly division of the American Chemical Society was formed, and has since grown to the second-largest division in this association with nearly 8,000 members. Polytechnic people include Ernst Weber (first president of the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) and one of the founders of the U.S. National Academy of Engineering (NAE)), Herman Francis Mark (Father of Modern Polymer Science), Buddy Ratner (one of the founding fathers of modern bioengineering), Elmer L. Gaden (father of Biomedical Engineering) , Samuel L. Greitzer (founding chairman of the United States of America Mathematical Olympiad) and George Bugliarello (founding fellow of the American Institute for Medical and Biological Engineering). Polytechnic Institute of New York University is a founding member of American Institute of Chemical Engineers (AIChE) , Association of Independent Technological Universities and the American Society of Civil Engineers. NYU-Poly operates several on-campus and off-campus business incubators and is known for its success in the transfer of technology from the laboratory to the marketplace. NYU-Poly has state-of-the-art facilities including a brand new library and new facilities for its electrical engineering, computer science and computer engineering programs. The Brooklyn campus offers programs primarily for undergraduate students but also offers opportunities for graduate students, including executive programs for students with related experience. NYU-Poly also has campuses in downtown Manhattan, Long Island, Westchester, and in international locations such as Israel, Abu Dhabi, Shanghai, and London. refs

--Charmpogo (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the improved(added more informations such as more AICHE presidents, inventors and fortune 500 CEOs) alumni section I made. But I think this section should be trimmed a lot. Many alumni such as Joel Snyder, Herman Fialkov, Jasper Kane, Eli Pearce,Peter P. Regna need article; all have a section in NYTimes fully devoted to them. There are actually too many alumni who deserve articles.

NYU-Poly new notable alumni section
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
--Charmpogo (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)}}Notable alumni Main article: List of NYU Polytechnic Institute people Polytechnic Institute of New York University has more than 44,000 alumni throughout the United States and in 55 countries around the world. NYU-Poly's alumni include inventors, scientists, business leaders, entrepreneurs, politicians, country presidents, university presidents and academic leaders among others. The Institute counts 5 Nobel Prize winners (2 Nobel Prize in Physics, 2 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine, 1 Nobel Prize in Chemistry), 3 Putnam Mathematical Competition winners, 2 Wolf Prize in Physics winners, (1 Russ Prize, 3 Gordon Prize, 1 Draper Prize)(also known as Nobel Prizes of Engineering) winners, 2 Turing Award(also known as Nobel Prize of Nobel Prize of computing) winners, 2 W. Wallace McDowell Award( also known as Nobel Prize of Information Technology and Computer Engineering) winners, several National Inventors Hall of Fame inductees, 1 List of prolific inventors inductee, multiple Technology & Engineering Emmy Award winners, 3 Israel Prize winners and many Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers Awards winners (including 2 IEEE Edison Medal winners and 1 IEEE Medal of Honor winner). Multiple current and former presidents of major professional societies, including the American Chemical Society, American Society of Civil Engineers and the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), are alumni. Many former and current leaders of Fortune 500 companies and Fortune Global 500 companies are NYU-Poly alumni, including Fred Amoroso(Chairman)Yahoo!, (President and CEO) Rovi Corporation, Israel Izzy Borovich(Chairman)El Al Israel Airlines Ltd., John Elmer McKeen(President)Pfizer, Tsuneo Nakahara (Vice- President)Sumitomo Group, Leon Awerbuch(Vice-President)Bechtel, Peter Rust(President)Consolidated Edison, Alfred Pritchard Sloan Jr.(President)General Motors, Herbert L. Henkel(Chairman and Chief Executive Officer) Ingersoll-Rand, Jean-Claude Sureau(President and CEO )Radiant Systems, John M. Trani (President and CEO )Stanley Works(Vice- President)General Electric, Virginia P. Ruesterholz(President)Verizon, Arthur Martinez(CEO)Sears., William C. W. Mow(Chairman and CEO)Bugle Boy., Robert Prieto((Vice President)Fluor Corporation,(Chairman) Parsons Brinckerhoff), Charlie Hinkaty(Vice President)Citibank, Frank Robert Azzi(Vice-president)Agilent Technologies., William L. Friend(Vice President)Bechtel, Edward T. Wolynic(Vice President) Engelhard, Ralph C. Alexander(Chairman )Riverstone Holdings, Curtis Brunson (Vice President) L-3 Communications, Craig G. Matthews(Vice Chairman)Keyspan,Mark Ronald(President and CEO)BAE Systems, James M. Smith,(Chairman, President & CEO)EDO Corporation, Robert J. Stevens(Chairman and Chief Executive Officer)Lockheed Martin, Ursula Burns(Chairman and CEO) Xerox, Jason Hsuan(Chairman and CEO)TPV Technology, Stewart G. Nagler(vice chairman and CFO, MetLife), Steven Vitale(Vice President and Chief Engineer at National Grid), Robert D. Dalziel(President at AT&T), Katherine Boden(Vice President at Consolidated Edison), Robert J. Giorgio(President at CDI Corporation), John Dionisio(Chairman and CEO)AECOM, Mamadou Ndiaye(country general manager at IBM), Charles R. Kalmanek (Vice President at AT&T ), Zhi Zhong Qiu (Director, Suntech Power), John W. Murphy (Chairman and CEO, Atlantic Management Company), Cliff Friedman( Vice President at Universal Studios, Vice President at NBC), John Catsimatidis(chairman and CEO of the Red Apple Group subsidiary United Refining Company.), David L. Sobin(CEO of BAMnet. A 24-year AT&T/Lucent Executive, Mr. Sobin led the team which created the first DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) product in the early 1980s and deployed it nationwide. He left AT&T/Lucent in 1996 to found his own DSL company, which was subsequently sold for approximately $50M in 1998.), Michael Horodniceanu(Metropolitan Transportation Authority president and chief engineer), Tom Ryan (President and CEO of Alpine Data Labs, President and CEO of Fanfare Software, President and CEO of Actional), Mark Podob(President and co-owner of Metlab and Metlab-Potero), Hugh John Casey(Chief engineer of army, chairman of the New York City Transit Authority), Rex Dupont( Vice President and Director of duPont Aerospace Company),Rahul Gautam( managing director of Sheela Foam), Bob Birdsong( President & CEO of OK Generators), Doron Nevo(President & CEO of KiloLambda Technologies Ltd, NKO, Inc, Clalcom Ltd.), Sidney Metzger(vice president of COMSAT) More than 2,000 CEOs and leaders at large corporations are NYU-Poly alumni. Top executives and engineers from all of the Fortune 500 companies and 499 of the Fortune Global 500 companies have been Polytechnic alumni as of 2012. Current and former presidents of major professional societies, including the American Chemical Society, American Society of Civil Engineers and the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE), are alumni. Peter Staeker, the current Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) president-elect, is an NYU-Poly alumnus. Andrew Herrmann, the current president of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) is an NYU-Poly alumnus. Former alumni presidents include Joel Snyder (IEEE President 2001, Founder of Snyder Associates), Eli Pearce (President, American Chemical Society), Francesco DeMaria(He is a lifetime member of the American Institute of Chemical Engineers and served as its vice chairman in 1972 and a member of the American Chemical Society and served as its division secretary from 1968-1969. He contributed to numerous professional journals and was grantee major patants in his field.),Arthur Bienenstock(president of American Physical Society) Founders of companies such as IBM, Jacobs Engineering, Fairchild Semiconductor, Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, Symbol Technologies, Burndy, NetJets, Sasken Communication Technologies, Religare, EDO Corporation, Tellabs, Haskins and Sells, H&Q Asia Pacific, Twitter, Red Apple Group,Berkeley Models, Glasgow Products, Inc, Nestar Systems, Matrix Partners, Premium Technology, KiloLambda Technologies Ltd, NKO, Inc, Clalcom Ltd. are Polytechnic alumni. Several engineers who graduated from NYU-Poly contributed to USA's infrastructure. These include James Wood(fabricated the steel cables for the Brooklyn Bridge. Also invented internal combustion engine for Submarine), Henry Goldmark(co-engineered the development of the Panama Canal lock system), Konstantinos "Gus" Maimis (project executive for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum) Bancroft Gherardi, Jr.(developed the early telephone systems in the United States), David L. Sobin(CEO of BAMnet. A 24-year AT&T/Lucent Executive, Mr. Sobin led the team which created the first DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) product in the early 1980s and deployed it nationwide. He left AT&T/Lucent in 1996 to found his own DSL company, which was subsequently sold for approximately $50M in 1998.), Michael Horodniceanu(Metropolitan Transportation Authority president and chief engineer), Hugh John Casey (Chief engineer of army, chairman of the New York City Transit Authority), George W. Melville(As chief of the Bureau of Steam Engineering, he headed a time of great expansion, technological progress and change, often in defiance of the conservative element of the Navy hierarchy. He superintended the design of 120 ships and introduced the water-tube boiler, the triple-screw propulsion system, vertical engines, the floating repair ship, and the "distilling ship." Appointed Engineer in Chief of the Navy, Melville reformed the service entirely, putting Navy engineers on a professional rather than an artisan footing.), Leopold H. Just(designed virtually every major bridge and tunnel in New York City, as well as Washington’s Metro system and the Ohio and Connecticut Turnpikes.) Several NYU-Poly graduates have played a part in the U.S. space program: Jay Greene(former Chief Engineer of NASA Johnson Space Center), Charles Camarda(NASA scientist and mission specialist on the Return to Flight voyage of the shuttle Discovery), Paolo A. Nespoli(Italian astronaut, mission specialist at STS-120 Space Shuttle mission), Thomas J. Kelly (aerospace engineer)(scientist, father of lunar module) Political figures who graduated from NYU-Poly included Gennaro A. Jerry Marino(former Mayor of Kutztown) , Chi Mui(First Asian-American Mayor of San Gabriel, CA.), Sang Whang(Korean American community leader and politician in Florida), Frank Padavan(Republican New York state senator), Carl Gatto(Republican member of the Alaska House of Representatives), Franklin Bartlett(U.S. Representative from New York.), Ephraim Katzir(fourth President of Israel, Chief scientist of the Israel Defense Department. Set up the Weizmann Institute with NYU-Poly's help), George W. Melville(Engineer in Chief of the Navy), Robert Michael White(military aircraft test pilot and a major general in the United States Air Force. White broke a number of records with the North American X-15 experimental aircraft during the 1960s, and supervised the design and development of several modern military aircraft.),Admiral Charles F. Stokes(Dr. Charles Stokes was a member of the first Board of Regents of the American College of Surgeons, Surgeon General of the United States Navy, and President Theodore Roosevelt's personal physician), Don Torrieri(research engineer and Fellow of the US Army Research Laboratory.), Steve Wallach(consultant to the United States Department of Energy Advanced Scientific Computing (ASC) program at Los Alamos National Laboratory.), DARPA director Jack Ruina, DARPA director Joseph R. Guerci, Edward A. Frieman(Director of United States Department of Energy) Many Polytechnic people have made important inventions, including Paul Peter Ewald(inventor of X-ray diffraction method), Gordon Gould(inventor of the laser), Leonard Bergstein(invented Camera Zoom Lens) , Ernst Weber(Invented Microwave), Mario Cardullo(invented Radio-frequency identification (RFID)), Maurice Karnaugh(inventor of Karnaugh Maps, or K-Maps), Francis Crick(Co-discoverer of DNA structure, made discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and its significance for information transfer in living material", played a crucial role in research related to revealing the genetic code, He invented "central dogma"), Samuel Morse(co-inventor of the Morse code), William B. Kouwenhoven (inventor closed-chest cardiac defibrillator), Buddy Ratner (one of the founding fathers of modern bioengineering) , Herman Francis Mark (Father of Modern Polymer Science), Jasper Kane(discovered method to mass produce penicillin), Gerald Goertzel(creator of the Goertzel algorithm), Jerome Lemelson(Lemelson's 605 patents made him one of the most prolific inventors in American history. He contributed to innovations like barcode scanner, automated warehouses, industrial robots, cordless telephones, fax machines, videocassette recorders, camcorders, crying baby dolls and the magnetic tape drive used in Sony's Walkman tape players. ), John Gilbert (inventor of non-stick coating as an application of Teflon), Joseph Owades(inventor of Lite beer), Robert G. Brown(designed and developed the first telephone system in Paris, France. Among his other innovations were the "French Telephone"), Bern Dibner(Inventor of the first solderless electrical connector), Avery Fisher(inventor of the first stereo radio-phonograph), Martin Hellman(invented Diffie–Hellman key exchange), David Harker(discoverer of the Donnay-Harker law and Harker-Kasper inequalities), K. Mani Chandy(invented BCMP network), Stephen P. Morse(architect of the Intel 8086 chip), Seymour Shapiro(discovered Phenformin), Pat Villani(creator of FreeDOS operating system), Jacob Bekenstein(contributed to the foundation of black hole thermodynamics. The Bekenstein bound in General Relativity), Lawrence J. Fogel(father of Evolutionary computation and Evolutionary programming), Ali Akansu(contributed to the theory and applications of sub-band and wavelet transforms), Bishnu S. Atal(contributed to linear predictive coding), Norman Gaylord(invented permeable contact lens which allows oxygen to reach the wearer's eye), Erol Gelenbe(invented G-network and Random neural network), David J. Thomson(invented Multitaper), Ronald Silverman(contributed to Ultrasound), Ronald R. Yager (invented ordered weighted averaging aggregation operators and contributed to fuzzy sets), Leopold B. Felsen(fundamental contributions to electromagnetic field analysis), Nathan Marcuvitz(contributed in the fields of microwave and electromagnetic theory), Hung-Chang Lin(holds 61 U.S. patents. Among his inventions is the quasi-complementary (transistor) amplifier circuit, which has been used in many commercial audio amplifiers. Another of his inventions is the lateral transistor which is used in linear integrated circuits and T2L digital integrated circuits. He also invented the wireless microphone.), Denis Blackmore(physicist who has contributed to the foundation of black hole thermodynamics and to other aspects of the connections between information and gravitation.), Barouh Berkovits(invented the cardiac defibrillator and artificial cardiac pacemaker), Jerome Swartz(invented hand-held barcode laser scanner and hand-held, scanner-integrated wireless computer and the first spread spectrum wireless LAN (WiFi)), Richard J. Orford( contributed to the invention of Touch Screen ATM), Elmer L. Gaden(father of Biomedical Engineering ),Martin Graham(Professor Emeritus at UC Berkeley and the designer of the Rice Institute Computer), Ephraim Katzir (developed a method for binding enzymes, which helped lay the groundwork for what is now called enzyme engineering), Leonard Greene (invented the Aircraft Stall Warning device, which warns pilots when a deadly aerodynamic stall is imminent), Robert Michael White(supervised the design and development of several modern military aircraft), James Wood(fabricated the steel cables for the Brooklyn Bridge. Also invented internal combustion engine for Submarine), Henry Goldmark(co-engineered the development of the Panama Canal lock system), Konstantinos "Gus" Maimis (project executive for the National September 11 Memorial and Museum) Bancroft Gherardi, Jr.(developed the early telephone systems in the United States), David L. Sobin( A 24-year AT&T/Lucent Executive, Mr. Sobin led the team which created the first DSL (Digital Subscriber Line) product in the early 1980s and deployed it nationwide.), Frances Hugle(Microscopic and integrated circuitry pioneer; inventor of Tape automated bonding), Ami Miron(He developed and patented the first Picture In Picture (PIP) for Philips Electronics. Miron also worked to solve the problem of ghost images on television and led the development of the first high-definition television (HDTV) system in the U.S.), Martin Lewis Perl(discovered tau lepton), Gertrude B. Elion( developed a multitude of new drugs, using innovative research methods that would later lead to the development of the AIDS drug AZT), Rudolph A. Marcus(invented theory of electron transfer called Marcus theory), Chu (developed techniques which are being used to design more precise atomic clocks for use in space navigation; atomic interferometers to provide ultra-precise measurements of gravitational forces; and atomic lasers),George W. Melville(As chief of the Bureau of Steam Engineering, he headed a time of great expansion, technological progress and change, often in defiance of the conservative element of the Navy hierarchy. He superintended the design of 120 ships and introduced the water-tube boiler, the triple-screw propulsion system, vertical engines, the floating repair ship, and the "distilling ship." Appointed Engineer in Chief of the Navy, Melville reformed the service entirely, putting Navy engineers on a professional rather than an artisan footing.), Edward R. Knowles( designed searchlights for the U.S. Navy and invented the storage battery.), Antonio Ferri( leader of a team that created the first practical hypersonic tunnel heater, used to heat air for dischage into a wind tunnel), Nicholas Hoff(a structural analyst whose calculations became the international guideposts in aircraft design), Raymond E. Kirk(editor, with Othmer, of the industry-standard Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology design), George Ellner(developed the use of ultra-violet light for sterilization), Benjamin Adler(helped develop commercial television), Samuel D. Goldberg( revolutionized dentistry by inventing local anesthetics and making Novocain commercially feasible), Leopold H. Just( designed virtually every major bridge and tunnel in New York City, as well as Washington’s Metro system and the Ohio and Connecticut Turnpikes.), Mario Tchou( led a group of scientists from the University of Pisa to invent, in 1959, the ELEA 9003, Italy's first computer.), Toruun Atteraas Garin(oversaw the development of the artificial sweetener aspartame and was a national spokesperson for the product. She also developed nontoxic processes to create food colorings and remove caffeine from coffee.), Peter P. Regna (helped discover Terramyscin, an antibiotic effective against more than 100 diseases.), Stephen Arnold, who helped create the interdisciplinary field of Microsphere Photonics, an optical biosensor sensitive enough to detect unlabeled molecules such as protein molecules and strands of DNA; H. Johnathan Chao, who patented the first integrated circuit chip that demonstrates the feasibility of SONET/ATM networks, allowing large volumes of information--audio, date, image and video--to transmit at high speeds; Bruce Garetz, who invented (with former Polytechnic professor Allan Myerson) a method for using laser light to control the arrangement of molecules in a crystal; David Goodman and Phyllis Frankl, who introduced the first practical application of a wireless infostation that can communicate information to and from a PDA or notebook computer; Spencer Kuo and Iraj M. Kalkhoran, who helped discover (with Lester Orlick and Daniel Bivolaru) a use for plasma to solve aeronautical problems of sonic booms and severe wave drag in supersonic flights; Kalle Levon, who invented an electro-chemical method to identify bacteria; Eli M. Pearce, who designed fire-resistant polymers; Ed Weil, who discovered a new family of chemicals that inhibit corrosion and could be used in protective coatings; Edward Wong and Nasir Memon, who created a computer program that imbeds information in digital documents to authenticate, protect copyright or communicate covertly; and Zivan Zabar, who developed a computer code for Con Edison that helped restart the electronic network after a 1983 blackout; the program was again used after 9/11 to restore power in lower Manhattan., Walter Brenner(Dr. Brenner is recognized as having pioneered the development of high energy ionizing radiation for polymers to be used for industrial, aerospace, medical and consumer applications.),Helias Doundoulakis(scientific innovator who patented the suspension system for the largest radio telescope in the world, and served in the United States Army as a spy for the Office of Strategic Services.) Prominent institutions of higher education have been led by NYU-Poly alumni, included Norman Lamm(Former president and current Chancellor of Yeshiva University), Hermann Viets(President, Milwaukee School of Engineering. He was Professor of Engineering at Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio. He was a professor and Associate Dean for Research at West Virginia University in Morgantown, West Virginia. the Dean of Engineering at the University of Rhode Island in Kingston, Rhode Island.), John P. Schaefer(President, The University of Arizona), K. Mani Chandy(Deputy chair of engineering and applied sciences at the California Institute of Technology ), Josef Singer(President of Technion – Israel Institute of Technology, also founded Technion’s Faculty of Aerospace Engineering and also won the Israel Prize in 2000 for his lifetime achievement in the field of aeronautical engineering) , Yehuda (Leo) Levi(Previous Rector at the Jerusalem College of Technology; author of several books on optics, and on science and Judaism.), Eleanor Baum(Cooper Union Engineering School Dean), John G. Truxal(Dean of engineering and applied sciences at Stony Brook University), Bruno A. Boley(Dean of Engineering at Northwestern University), Dean of Engineering at Middle East Technical University Jack Baskin(Founder of the Jack Baskin School of Engineering at the University of California, Santa Cruz), David J. Palmer(Head of the Department of Engineering at the United States Merchant Marine Academy), Richard E. Sorensen( Dean of Pamplin College of Business at Virginia Tech), Harold S. Goldberg( Associate Dean of Tufts University School of Engineering), Ephraim Katzir (Set up the Weizmann Institute with NYU-Poly's help), Russell K. Hotzler(president of New York City College of Technology of The City University of New York, President at Queens College), Peter Jordan (president at Tarrant County College) People related to the film industry who graduated from NYU-Poly included Marvin Davis(chairman of Davis Petroleum and at one time owned 20th Century Fox, the Pebble Beach Corporation, the Beverly Hills Hotel, and the Aspen Skiing Company. Former CEO of Paramount Pictures), David Bergstein(American entrepreneur and film producer, chairman of THINKFilm and Capitol Films), Robert H. Lieberman(novelist, film director, and a long-time member of the Physics faculty at Cornell University.)   Edward Everett Horton, a well-known character actor, also attended Brooklyn Poly. Writers who graduated from NYU-Poly included James Truslow Adams(coined the term "American Dream"), Robert Anton Wilson(American author of 35 influential books), Charles Battell Loomis, Tudor Jenks(American author, poet, artist and editor, as well as a journalist and lawyer.), Hugh Seidman( American poet, who also taught at the University of Wisconsin, Yale University, Columbia University, the College of William and Mary, The New School.), Clayton Hamilton(American drama critic. Professor at Columbia University) Notable award winners include Gertrude B. Elion (1988 recipient of the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine), Martin Lewis Perl (won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1995 for his discovery of the tau lepton, also awarded 1982 Wolf Prize in physics), Rudolph A. Marcus (1992 Nobel Prize in Chemistry), Ju Chin Chu(Member of Academia Sinica.), Francis Crick(Co-discoverer of DNA structure; awarded Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine), Jacob Bekenstein(won Israel Prize in Physics (2005), Wolf Prize in physics (2012), Member of Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities), Judea Pearl(2011 winner of the ACM Turing Award), Martin Hellman (In 2011, he was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame.), Elmer L. Gaden (Russ Prize winner), Harold S. Goldberg (Gordon Prize winner) , Clive L. Dym (Gordon Prize winner), Jerome E. Levy (Gordon Prize winner), John B. MacChesney(Charles Stark Draper Prize winner), Amir Pnueli (Israel Prize and Turing Award winner), Shmuel Winograd (W. Wallace McDowell Award) winner, Krishna Palem (W. Wallace McDowell Award), William B. Kouwenhoven (IEEE Edison Medal) winner, Bancroft Gherardi, Jr. (IEEE Edison Medal) winner, Lloyd Espenschied (IEEE Medal of Honor), William L. "Bill" Effinger, Jr(Founded Berkeley Models. He was elected to the Academy of Model Aeronautics Hall of Fame in 1986.), Leonard Greene (He was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame. He was an American inventor and aerodynamics engineer who held more than 200 patents, many of which are aviation-related), Ephraim Katzir (Israel Prize), Josef Singer(Israel Prize winner), Ami Miron (He received two Technology and Engineering Emmy Awards), George W. Melville(Congressional Gold Medal winner) Notable NYU-Poly Students Martin Lewis Perl, Nobel laureate, won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1995 for his discovery of the tau lepton. Gertrude B. Elion, Nobel laureate Walter Brenner, pioneered the development of high energy ionizing radiation for polymers to be used for industrial, aerospace, medical and consumer applications George W. Melville, Engineer in Chief of the Navy Ami Miron, entrepreneur and technology developer specializing in consumer electronics, the Internet, and television. Charles Ranlett Flint, Founder of IBM Hugh John Casey, chairman of the New York City Transit Authority Frances Hugle, American scientist, engineer, and inventor who contributed to the understanding of semiconductors, integrated circuitry, and the unique electrical principles of microscopic materials.[121] Frances Hugle, American scientist, engineer, and inventor who contributed to the understanding of semiconductors, integrated circuitry, and the unique electrical principles of microscopic materials. Erol Gelenbe, computer scientist, engineer and applied mathematician Norman Lamm, Former president and current chancellor of Yeshiva University Martin Hellman, American cryptologist, and is best known for his invention of public key cryptography. Hellman is a long-time contributor to the computer privacy debate and is more recently known for promoting risk analysis studies on nuclear threats, including the NuclearRisk.org website. Ursula Burns, Madam Chairman (or Chairperson) and CEO of Xerox. Ronald R. Yager, American researcher in computational intelligence, decision making under uncertainty and fuzzy logic. He invented ordered weighted averaging aggregation operators and contributed to fuzzy sets. David J. Thomson, He is best known for creation of the multitaper method of spectral estimation. David J. Thomson, He is best known for creation of the multitaper method of spectral estimation. Jay Greene, Chief Engineer of NASA Johnson Space Center John Catsimatidis, He is the owner, president, chairman, and CEO of the Red Apple Group and Gristedes Foods. He is also the chairman and CEO of the Red Apple Group subsidiary United Refining Company. Ephraim Katzir, Between 1966 and 1968 he served as Chief scientist of the Israel Defense Department. He was the fourth President of Israel from 1973 until 1978. Charles Camarda, NASA scientist and mission specialist on the Return to Flight voyage of the shuttle Discovery Paolo A. Nespoli, Astronaut, mission specialist at STS-120 Space Shuttle mission Robert M. White, military aircraft test pilot and a major general in the United States Air Force.Every year, NYU-Poly hosts world’s largest capture the flag hacking competition. White broke a number of records with the North American X-15 experimental aircraft during the 1960s, and supervised the design and development of several modern military aircraft.

NYU-Poly updated notable faculty list with citations
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
--Charmpogo (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)}} Paul Peter Ewald – Inventor of X-ray diffraction method for determination of molecular structure; Physics Department chair until 1957 (while Francis Crick was a student). David and Gregory Chudnovsky – famous mathematicians who held the record for number of digits of pi in 1989. They now run the Institute for Mathematics and Advanced Supercomputing (IMAS) at Polytechnic Gordon Gould – Former Polytechnic Professor who was the inventor of the laser David Harker – American physicist, X-ray crystallographer, and discoverer of the Donnay-Harker law and Harker-Kasper inequalities. Maurice Karnaugh – A inventor of Karnaugh Maps, or K-Maps, while at Bell Labs. He was a professor at the Westchester campus from 1980 to 1999 and is now retired Paul Levinson – author of The Plot To Save Socrates, media commentator on The O'Reilly Factor and other TV and radio. He was Visiting Professor at the Philosophy and Technology Study Center at Polytechnic, 1987–1988. Rudolph Marcus – Former Polytechnic Professor awarded Nobel Prize in chemistry Herman F. Mark – Founder of the Polymer Research Institute Donald Othmer – Co-Author, Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, inventor of the Othmer Still (a laboratory device for vapor-liquid equilibrium measurements) Leonard Peikoff – Former Philosophy Professor, founder of the Ayn Rand Institute Athanasios Papoulis – Pioneer in the field of stochastic processes. Murray Rothbard – Former economics professor, key figure in libertarian movement Ernst Weber – Founder of the Microwave Research Institute; first IEEE President Parke Kolbe Francis Crick – Co-discoverer of DNA structure; awarded Nobel Prize for Physiology or Medicine. Nassim Nicholas Taleb – Epistemologist author of The Black Swan; works in the risk engineering department. Torsten Suel – Pioneer of Web Search Engine. Hans Reissner – German aeronautical engineer. R. M. Foster – Bell Labs mathematician whose work was of significance regarding electronic filters for use on telephone lines. Paul M. Doty – emeritus Harvard Mallinckrodt Professor of Biochemistry who specialized in the physical properties of macromolecules and has been strongly involved in peace and security policy issues. Frederick B. Llewellyn – a American electrical engineer. James Tenney – American composer and influential music theorist. Jack Keil Wolf – a American researcher in information theory and coding theory. Louis Zukofsky – one of the most important second-generation American modernist poets. Eugene D. Genovese – American historian of the American South and American slavery. Charles William Hanko – American historian and politician. S. L. Greitzer – American mathematician, the founding chairman of the United States of America Mathematical Olympiad, and the publisher of the precollege mathematics journal Arbelos. Joseph Wood Krutch – American writer, critic, and naturalist. R. Luke DuBois – American composer, performer, conceptual new media artist, programmer, record producer and pedagogue based in New York City. Ján Vilček- National Medal of Technology and Innovation winner Elliott Waters Montroll – American scientist and mathematician. Joshua W. Sill – Professor of Mathematics who attended Brooklyn Collegiate and Polytechnic Institute. Later became the youngest General in the Civil War. Fort Sill is named after him. Edward Kimbark – power engineer. Dan Bailey – fly-shop owner, innovative fly developer and staunch Western conservationist. Morgan Chu – Intellectual property attorney, is one of the first Asian Americans to lead a major U.S. law firm. Ta-You Wu – Nuclear physicist and President of Academia Sinica. Nathan Marcuvitz – Electrical engineering pioneer. Erich E. Kunhardt Samuel Morse – co-inventor of the Morse code, contributor to the invention of a single-wire telegraph system based on European telegraphs Jerry MacArthur Hultin Katherine Isbister Leopold B. Felsen K. R. Sreenivasan Tsuneo Nakahara Dante C. Youla – The Youla–Kucera parametrization in control theory is named after him. Cathleen Synge Morawetz Myles Jackson Michael Shelley (mathematician) – Professor of Mechanical Engineering Dennis Shasha Herbert Freeman J. H. Mulligan. Jr – IEEE James H. Mulligan, Jr. Education Medal John R. Ragazzini Charles Camarda Steven E. Koonin- Director of NYU-Polytechnic's Center for Urban Science and Progress Sunil Kumar- Dean of Engineering at NYU Abu Dhabi. Scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories, and a visiting scientist at NASA's Ames Research Center in California. John G. Truxal- professor and former chairman of the electrical engineering department Theodore (Ted) S. Rappaport- Director of the National Science Foundation (NSF) Industrial/University Collaborative Research Center for Wireless Internet Communications and Advanced Technology (WICAT), a national research center that involves 5 major universities and is headquartered at NYU-Poly. 2012 recipient of the William E. Sayle Award for Achievement in Education by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Education Society Hans Mark David Miller (Canadian politician) Leonard Bergstein- invented the original zoom lens, and patented different variations on it. This single invention has revolutionized photography and film forever, now zoom lenses are standard on almost every camera made worldwide. Ju Chin Chu - Member of Academia Sinica. Isadore Fankuchen - Pioneer of X-ray diffraction crystallography; determined (with Bernal) the structure of the Tobacco Mosaic Virus; predicted the "Fankuchen effect in curved crystals" Eli Pearce- President, American Chemical Society Phil Maymin - Assistant Professor of Finance and Risk Engineering and Libertarian Party House candidate in Connecticut Joel Snyder - IEEE President 2001, Founder of Snyder Associates, Former Polytechnic Senior Industry Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering Barouh Berkovits - invented the cardiac defibrillator and artificial cardiac pacemaker Amir Pnueli- Israel Prize and Turing Award winner. Krishna Palem- W. Wallace McDowell Award winner Jerome Swartz- invented hand-held barcode laser scanner and hand-held, scanner-integrated wireless computer and the first spread spectrum wireless LAN (WiFi) Andrew Kalotay George Bugliarello- Chairman of the Board of Science and Technology for International Development (BOSTID) of the National Academy of Sciences. Chairman of the National Medal of Technology Nomination Evaluation Committee. Chair of the National Academy of Engineering Council’s International Affairs Committee. Richard Elliot Wener- Fulbright Fellow at the Vienna University of Technology Leslie Greengard Boris Aronov Antonio Ferri- leader of a team that created the first practical hypersonic tunnel heater, used to heat air for dischage into a wind tunnel Yann LeCun Leslie Greengard Paul Horn (computer scientist) John Colagioia Maureen Braziel Aleksandra Smiljanić Stephen Arnold (Professor) refs

Finally, this very new ranking should be included (NYU-Poly's Online Engineering Degrees Ranked in Top 10 by US News & World Report) http://www.usnews.com/education/online-education/engineering/rankings

We really need an experienced editor like you to fix the NYU-Poly related articles.

Thanks, --Charmpogo (talk) 15:15, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Greetings, for last an hour or so, I am seeing your one after another edit in this page! Well, you can use your sandbox User:Charmpogo/sandbox too! --Tito Dutta (talk)

Hi Tito, thanks for your advice. I 've been using WordPad 'til now.--Charmpogo (talk) 15:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Response

There is so much to do at the NYU-Poly pages that it will not be done quickly. BTW, nobody likes being pushed. As can be seen from my talk p., I'm usually editing at intervals most of the day, but not continuously. How fast you will get a talk page response depends on the matter involved: The only thing you can count on immediately is removing copyvio and vandalism. My next priority is usually ongoing discussions, because they move very quickly. Looking at revisions of articles or questions about policy is slower, especially if complicated , because I like to say things right, and I sometimes make several drafts. It may take a day or two sometimes.

I'm working on it, I'll get back to you. A preliminary question, considering the history of the article, but one which you do not have to answer: do you represent the school? DGG ( talk ) 20:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I have now examined your suggested edits, and I will certainly consider some of the individual names, but otherwise I am not going to make them. The sections do need editing, and I am going to do it this weekend, but the main thing that has to be done is to 1/ remove a few more of the people, the ones who have not yet achieved obvious notability (this can of course change when they do get a WP article) 2/ shorten some of the descriptions--in most cases a single word is enough, because the linked article has the information; for the obviously notable still without articles, a little more must usually be said to show the notability is in fact obvious 3/remove many of the pictures. They do not add information about the university in any real sense; a few of the most famous should remain, on the basis of maintaining interest and readability. 3/Shorten somewhat the description in the paragraphs--the weight of the article is the list. 4/ because of the length of the lists, I may consider using 2 columns 5/the necessary citations are the ones to show the person is in fact an alumnus. (this isn't necessary for current faculty). Adding these is usually pretty obvious from the bio pages.) 6/The bio pages will usually show the degree and the year, so it would be nice to add them. I may make a start on this. (if they do not show the degree & the year, that needs to be verified and added on those pages.)

This is pretty much the opposite of what you suggested. You suggested violating our normal style by doing everything in long paragraphs, multiple linking the same organizations, repeating the names not only in the lede to the notable people article but in the lead to the article for the university, and adding an extensive gallery of large pictures.

I'm going to make these minor improvements, and then if you still want to do your changes back essentially to the version that we had, we can discuss them on the talk p and let others comment. In view of the prior use of this page for advertising, I think what I am doing is justified, because it's just what I customarily do at other university articles. What these articles need to highlight in my opinion is not the number of prominent electrical engineers who are associated--frankly, that's more or less taken for granted with a well known engineering school with a long history, but rather the astonishingly wide range of professions of their graduates--which I would certainly not have guessed before I started working on the article. So I thank you for the opportunity of doing this.

I notice that the article you mention on the other university has some of the same failings. I'll try to get there also.

and I should alert you that a discussion related to the NYU Poly articles is in process at WP:AN# #PC2 for Mangoeater targets DGG ( talk ) 22:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• 1. I do not represent the school. I don't think that the school has an employee for editing Wikipedia. I did a BS in electrical engineering from NYU-Poly and I am currently doing an MBA at Duke University. As such, I shouldn't be editing either article per Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Besides, many editors got blocked as sock puppets when they tried to fix the articles in question. I don't think that List of NYU Polytechnic Institute people and Polytechnic Institute of New York University need any kind protections because these pages were fully unprotected for days yet no one was editing them before they got protected.

• 2. I really don't care how long you take to fix the articles, but you should be the one doing it or be the one who leads the fixing. You are the most experienced editor about these kind of subjects, who is involved with these articles.

• 3. I don't care about this WP:AN# #PC2 for Mangoeater targets, because it was started by a 16-year-old high school dropout.

• 4. NYU-Poly is not the only college article that has promotional tone. Articles such as New Jersey Institute of Technology or similar colleges such as California Institute of Technology, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and Rutgers University, whose introduction says 'Rutgers is a member of the Association of American Universities, a consortium of the top 62 most elite research universities in North America', which although promotional, is a fact.

• 5. I 've noticed that some of the constructive edits of the alleged disruptive editor got removed (from other NYU related articles as well), this led me to look into the matter and inform you about the issues.

Sourced contents that got deleted. You can add them back if you think that they need to be restored
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
1. List of NYU School of Medicine people Alumnus Frederick Cook's name was removed even after three sources were provided. Source= http://brooklynbased.net/email/2012/12/brooklyn-history-a-tale-of-two-explorers/ http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/135974/Frederick-Albert-Cook http://humbug.polarhist.com/biography.html 2. Yann LeCun Information about the fact that he is also a professor at Polytechnic Institute of New York University was removed even after two sources were provided. Source=http://www.poly.edu/academics/departments/electrical/people http://yann.lecun.com/ 3. Paul Horn (computer scientist) Sourced information about the fact that he is also a professor at Polytechnic Institute of New York University was removed. Source= http://www.poly.edu/academics/departments/technology/people 4.Robert G. Brown Sourced information about the fact that he is an alumnus of Polytechnic Institute of New York University was removed. Source= http://www.poly.edu/sites/polyproto.poly.edu/files/NYU-Poly_UG_Viewbook_2013.pdf 5.Elmer L. Gaden Sourced information about the fact that he is an alumnus of Polytechnic Institute of New York University was removed. Source=http://www.bths.edu/apps/news/show_news.jsp?REC_ID=237613&id=35

Warmest regards,--Charmpogo (talk) 16:25, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Responding: I appreciate your trust in me; nonetheless, having protected the article, I think it best to only make obvious edits. For the moment, it remains protected; I will wait for continuation of the AN discussion to consider what to do further.

Many school articles--I would say almost all school articles-are edited mostly or entirely by students or alumni. Obviously, they're the people most likely to be knowledgable & interested. (I've editing the pages of the 4 of mine.)Sometimes, they're also the people most likely to go overboard, and the most persistent in doing so. We judge, as always, by the results. If a school employee or PR firm made unimpeachable edits, they'd be accepted. (In practice, they rarely do, for they usually can not be brought to understand the nPOV requirements of WP.)

You are right that many college articles are spammy. The example of wording you give for Rutgers isn't outrageous, though I will shorten it: it's routine to explain the meaning of such a listing to those not familiar with it, though it does give the opportunity for a little promotion). The list of their alumni needs some work--such lists almost always do, for people make individual unjustified additions (I've fixed some of them there--though it's slow, because I can't go by whether or not the link is blue, because many of the blue links lead to a disam p. which doesn't include the person or an article about someone else of the same name. Every one needs checking.). I've done some of it. I also trimmed RPI. Caltech seems basically OK. NJIT needs so much work that I do not have the energy right now--unless perhaps there's a merit it letting it stand as a badd example.

I'll look at adding the ones here tomorrow. Thanks for noticing them. DGG ( talk ) 06:00, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Reply

I mentioned Rutgers because 'elite' is a peacock term, but Rutgers is a member of the Association of American Universities, a consortium of the top 62 most elite research universities in North America.....It is a fact. There are many other colleges' articles that have promotional tone, such as Grinnell College, Worcester Polytechnic Institute(Academics section says 'It is most well known for its engineering disciplines and is one of the top-ranked schools to attend for engineering in North America and the world over.')... and the list goes on. U.S. colleges' articles are not the only ones with promotional tone (see Sharif University of Technology, second line of the introduction says 'Sharif University of Technology is the most prestigious university in Iran. Sharif is one of the best engineering schools in the Middle-East and many outstanding students attempt to pursue their academic activities at Sharif.'). This whole field needs improvements, it's really pointless to target just one college. As for List of NYU Polytechnic Institute people, you can actually go by whether or not the link is blue when removing non-notable alumni from the list because if a page has more than four blue links which lead to disam pages, there is a bot called DPL bot, which automatically puts a tag on the article, and vice versa. For example see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_NYU_Polytechnic_Institute_people&diff=508513136&oldid=508355981. I 'd suggest that you start working on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_NYU_Polytechnic_Institute_people&oldid=530095742 , because the current revision is missing many alumni. There are some alumni who actually have articles but their names on that list are not correctly spelled. As for the notable faculty list, I gave you the latest updated list above. The faculty with articles do not have citations, but the very few red-linked faculty have citations. You can remove them if you deem it necessary. You can keep some red-linked alumni if you think that they are notable. I gave you a new updated introduction and alumni section, which you can fix and then put up. I modeled the alumni section of NYU Poly after: Duke University alumni section([7]). Both NYU Poly and List of NYU Polytechnic Institute people need a lot of trimming. Take your time to rewrite correctly and make improvements to the articles. Be well,--Charmpogo (talk) 14:29, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

The whole encyclopedia needs improvement. there are two ways or working at this : one is systematic, the other is fire-fighting. We have sometimes organized systematic improvement drives for what are seen as very serious problems; an example of a very successful one was the drive to source or remove the older unsourced BLP articles. This problem isn't of that degree of urgency, and I don't think there are enough interested people in the field in general, as distinct from those who want to work on an article on a particular college. In any case, my own preference is to call attention to outbreaks and deal with what I see in an article or related group of articles where either the problem is particularly outrageous, or it has otherwise been the subject of particular attention--as this one was with an outbreak of edit-warrring over the contents, connected initially with a disagreement about the proper name of the college as its status was changing. There is no way to improve articles but one at a time: anything more complicated than a spelling error is a job for a human. Fortunately, I'm not the only person here: I know I cannot do it all myself, but I there's no other way to do it that to start in and fix something. I work this way because the amount that needs to be done can appear so overwhelming that working on a variety of topics decreases my frustration at not being able to finish any one of them. (And because I hope others will see my work on a particular type of problem and be encouraged to do some of the same also), After a career as a librarian when I like all librarians had no choice but to work on whatever the person in front of me wanted, I enjoy the ability to pick and choose.

Puffery in expression like "the best" is perhaps the most evident problem of promotionalism, but it is not the most serious--people discount it, and it is easy to eliminate. The problem is when it biases the entire article and affects the content, by using it instead of providing encyclopedic information. The example you give from Sharif is a little complicated, because there is in fact a RS for "most prestigious"; it needs rewording, not simple elimination. Similarly, being in the AAU is an accepted indication of perceived quality as a research university, so the problem is one of wording. University quality and ranking is a fascinating and controversial subject, & I follow the RL discussions on it. Since there are many ways to indicate this, a college usually chooses to give the one that show it in the best light. What we should do is to make sure that not too much of the article is devoted to it--if they want to give the details, the place is their website.

Where there is an article on a person, that he attended the college is normally sourced there. I use the DPL bot, but I don't trust it to catch everything. Two-way disams don't have disambiguation pages in the formal sense, and it will not catch when someone links the name with a piped link to the article on the person's company or to some other person who does have an article (many of that last class are simply errors, not deliberate). What is equally to the point, of course, is the people who are not listed. It's never been resolved how many of the people should also go in a paragraph in the main article. My own feeling, is nothing less than Nobel prize winners or national presidents or the equivalent--the criterion for that page should be "famous".

Now please give me a week to look at the details. If I've missed anything, tell me then. DGG ( talk ) 00:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Charmpogo has been blocked as a sockpuppet of Mangoeater1000 . . . see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mangoeater1000. Thanks, 72Dino (talk) 16:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

can't exactly say I'm surprised. I will nonetheless make use of those of his suggestions that are good. I'm wondering if we could go to semi-oprotection on the articles, though. DGG ( talk ) 23:32, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Data Publica

Hi, My name is Ben. I edited a page you asked for deletion called Data Publica. It's a page to present a french startup historically known as the first publica data directory in France. I was wondering in which way this page could be edited as I see many company wikipedia pages such as companies that does exactly what we do such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataMarket If you could tell me how a presentation page could respect presentation as you consider it please let me know. regards — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bengans (talk • contribs) 13:49, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I've restored it. Looking at it again, it's not unambiguously promotional. It mostly rests on the lemagit articles, and I am not sufficiently familiar with that publication to tell the extent to which they rest on the company;s press releases, or are independent journalism. It might help to have a somewhat clearer description of just what services the company does provide, andsome indication of the degree to which they are innovative. It'squite possible that it will in present state be nominated by another editor for deletion, but I cannot predict the result. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Sri Siddhartha Education Society

Manjeshpv (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC) i think Sri Siddhartha Education Society article is deleted by you. i'm beginner to wikipedia. the article written in http://ssims.edu.in/about-SSES.html is written by me. i'm student of the institution. so how can i restore the article.and how can i prove that article is written by me.

The school put its copyright on it, so the presumption is that they think they own it. If you wrote it for them as because they paid you for it, they do own it, not you, and they will have to give permission for it, according to the formal procedure at WP:DCM However, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea, because the tone is promotional, not not encyclopedic.

The first half, on the motivation for the school, is pure promotion, not information, and should not be included. The second half, this written with too many adjectives of praise, rather than information. Such is the style of web pages, but not encyclopedia articles. It would be much better to start over.

Give a plain description of the history of the society, including the sources and extent of funding, and the growth of the institutions it sponsors. Support this by references providing substantial coverage from 3rd party independent published reliable sources, print or online, but not blogs or press releases, or material derived from press releases. Leave the details for the articles on the individual components. DGG ( talk ) 03:51, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you watching this user?

• User:Whitetararaj, [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/

Ponnambalamedu]] I would really hate to see this user get a block as I see a lot of potential in this user in becoming a prolific contributor to less known Indian topics. But a slew of poor articles, repeated insertion of personal info in user/sub pages (the user claims to be 11 yrs old, which I highly doubt) etc. might leave a lot of work for other users if this goes on unchecked. Is there any way to bring this user on track without discouraging them to contribute? P.S. Please archive your talk as I found it very hard to comment here. :) Suraj T 17:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

in the last week he has not made unreferenced articles, but he has been using very poor sources--sometimes just a listing in a directory. So it seems the warnings you & I have given him have made some difference. If his userboxes are accurate, he may be in a setting where he has minimal resources available. From what has taken place so far, I assume he is teachable, but I think it will be a slow process to teach him.

(btw, though my user page will get shorter, it may not get much shorter; the best way to deal with editing long pages if there's a problem is by editing a section, or using the new section tag to make one.) DGG ( talk )

=

Denial of Speedy Deletion -- Heterogeneous Activity

Hello DGG. I would like to understand on what basis you state it is demonstrated that "Heterogeneous activity" is an economic theory? Would you say the same if the title were any two randomly selected words with the same unsourced assertion in the lede? Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 17:04, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

it makes sense to me. The contents say it is a theory about "diverse behavior in the marketplace" . It may or may not be a good definition, or expandable into an proper article, or duplicate other content. But it is clear that it is a theory about behaviour in the marketplace. It therefore has context. I could have been more specific and say that its a theory about the operation of the market, but that's part of economics DGG ( talk ) 17:23, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hello thanks for the reply. No theory is stated in the article. It is only asserted that there exists an idea which the article calls by the name Heterogeneous activity. The creator of the page may believe that he has a theory but he hasn't stated a theory or even that such a theory exists. The article does nothing to meet the test that anybody believes that a theory exists and is named Heterogeneous Activity. Can this be re-opened for wider comment in lieu of your quick denial? Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 17:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Any one person other than the author objecting to a speedy prevents the speedy, because speedy is for a case which is indisputable, and if someone disputes it, then it is not indisputable. We in practice accept such a challenge even by inexperienced WPedians. You are right that the article is not sufficient, but speedy nonetheless does not apply to insufficient or inadequate or unsourced articles. Look at the examples at WP:CSD. According to deletion policy, there are two options: WP:PROD and WP:AFD. WP:PROD can also be defeated by any one person objecting in good faith--even the author. See below for the reasons why I might not object to a prod, but I think the author probably would, so it might be simpler to go directly to AfD. An article does not have to meet notability to pass speedy, so whether there is material to show the theory exists is irrelevant.

And in fact, looking at the history of the article, I see it was much longer, but it was improperly made up of quotations. They made it quite clear what was being discussed. I think the term was used incorrectly, and the quotations do not support the use. It seems an excuse to bring in a variety of quotes expressing a particular position. It might be salvageable; it might be better to start over.

I have now taken a look at the broader problem with this editor's articles and the ways being taken to deal with them. there are several aspects:

First, the practice of removing content from an article and then deleting it as no content or no context is not a straightforward way of proceeding, I'm aware it was not you who did this, but considering your previous involvement in discussions with the originator of this article, I would think you may have realized.

second, I am not sure how to deal with the problem this editor presents. He's clearly doing improper and tendentious editing. There are several ways to proceed: Continue trying to educate him, rewrite the articles in part, or rewrite completely the article contents without deleting the originals, or try to get consensus for deletions at AfD. Asking him just to add paragraph content seems to result in an article that is technically not a string of quotations, but has the same content, with a little narration. Considering that, and considering the continuing defenses of vague citations to material not directly applicable, and considering the consistent clever selection of quotes to subtly shift the meaning, I'm not sure how much improvement can be expected. I'm inclined to think that we may possibly need direct sanctions. They've been tried, but the normal course is increasing them. DGG ( talk ) 19:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

AFD

Howdy, not sure if you keep AFDs in your watchlist so I thought I'd post here. Are you able to have a quick look at my response to your comment at this AFD. I think the profile I have found is evidence enough that she meets WP:AUTHOR as you suggested. Stalwart111 22:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I will take a look. I automatically watchlist AfDs I place, but not ones I comment in, but in any case I almost never actually get time to look at my watchlist. Therefore I very much appreciate any mention here of ones I ought to look at, especially if anyone thinks I've made a serious misjudgment. It isn't necessary to indicate what I should look for because I simply evaluate whatever I find. I always look, but if I think the situation needs no comment from me, or no further comment, I don't comment. I used to track all AfDs of possible interest; I've had to give that up in favor of other priorities, such as dealing with new contributors who need advice or encouragement. DGG ( talk ) 23:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, too! I tend to be a big advocate for WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM and really didn't think I could in this particular instance. I'm still not sure I could, but that profile suggests to me that someone could and if that's the case, it shouldn't be deleted. Would appreciate your commentary either way. Stalwart111 00:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

they're ok; I did some significant cleanup to the article. See my comment at AfD for some expected continuing problems about people adding promotional content. DGG ( talk ) 06:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Your counsel sought

Hello, DGG! Long time, no see. Would you give me some brief-but-pungent advice? I'm thinking about taking on the task of admin, and I would like to know how you feel about being an admin-editor compared with being an editor only. Do you sometimes feel bogged down to the point that you can't make edits that you like to make? Any info you can spare me about your admin experience would be a great deal of help. Thank you, David, very much! – Paine (Climax!)  21:45, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

No admin has to do everything, though any admin no matter how specialized a role should be expected to know the basics of blocking, protection, & deletion, and copyright & BLP policies, because occasions for them will arise. I mainly use the tools for deleting junk, just as I expected to do at my rfa; Most of what I do otherwise is give advice, for which the tools are not necessary, though they are, I find, sometimes helpful in convincing recalcitrant newcomers, because I can say, for example, if you do this again I can & will block you. As for the time conflict with editing, it's not using the admin tools per se, but the advice, that takes the time, and it would take equal time if I were not an admin. I could delete speedies as fast as I can check them, but it's giving proper advice to people for what to do better that takes the effort. Proper advice means detailed specific help to anyone who might be coming here in good faith, and this is not something which can be done with templates. Some admin tasks don't require this sort of additional work to anywhere the same extent, but they are not the ones that interest me, because giving the advice is the part I want to do.

I made the decision early on that in the context of WP I would be primarily a teacher, not a writer, and could be more effective if I taught people how to do things than by doing them myself, though doing them myself can often be easier.

I have just noticed WP:Watchlistitis. I see from various pages in your talk space that you try to keep track of many things You need to consider just what it is you want to do; and before you run, you ought to check also if there remains any weakness in any of the articles you have written. DGG ( talk ) 05:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

That's good advice, David. Many of the things you probably noted on my Workpage are dated and need to be removed. I'm far better at adding to the lists than at weeding through them. Not counting Dab pages and Redirects, I've only created seven articles, and one of the redirects I created is now a fairly thriving article, so the weakness check shouldn't take too much work. After looking at your RfA and those of others who've helped me in the past, I see how grueling they can be. That part doesn't really deter me, yet when I add it to the thought that editing Wikipedia might be far more interesting and fun if I were to stay an editor only, I just don't know if I'm ready for being an admin. Thank you so much for your response and counsel! – Paine (Climax!)  19:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The only way to find out is to run. But my suggestions for what you or anyone should do before that is to 1/ become fairly visible for sensible comments at a fairly wide range of noticeboards, WT pages on major policies, and afd discussions. 2/ Create at least two strong articles, preferably of GA standard--I don't think it ought to be actually necessary, but some others do. DGG ( talk ) 20:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, David, you've given me much food for thought. I'll let you know if I make it to the !polls. – Paine (Climax!)  17:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)