User talk:DAFMM/Archive 6/6/12+

User: DAFMM (talk) Archive 2 (6th June 2012 to present)

June 2012

WikiProject: BMW Motorcycles Proposal

This new WikiProject would have the aim of creating and developing a page for each model of BMW motorcycle produced in the company's history. The primary aim of the project, would to be able to create a highly valuable resource for both enthusiasts and restorers such as myself, where all the information and history about each model (both new and old) could be found. Not only this, but it would encourage motorcycle enthusiasts, who would not normally have used Wikipedia, to both use its resources and to contribute to the project's pages, becoming part of the motorcycle fraternity which would be the driving force behind this community. Once this task has been completed of English Wikipedia, I, with help of other editors and members of the project, would like to then translate the pages into other languages (particularly German, in order to make the resources available in Germany, where many BMW enthusiasts and restorers are concentrated), and so contribute to the wider Wikipedia group. The Wikiproject, would also contribute large numbers of pictures to Wikimedia, as part of its galleries.

In order to promote the group and encourage the growth of the articles in our scope, the WikiProject would not only be promoted to present editors who are active editing articles on BMW itself and motorcycles in general, but also notify groups such as the Vintage Motor Cycle Club and the BMW Club in the U.K., which would encourage members (20,000+) to contribute some of the extensive knowledge of the topic which is demonstrated by members of these clubs. Members of the WikiProject who are active in clubs outside of the U.K., would also be encouraged to promote the Project to their respective society, making the WikiProject multinational. Current, more experienced editors, would then help the 'new boys' to use Wikipedia and share their knowledge, which has often been collected over a lifetime, with a passion for the marque. This would enable us, together, to produce a resource which will help generations long into the future and help preserve and catalogue BMW's legacy in the motorcycle industry.

Currently, there are no such WikiProjects which would be dedicated solely to the BMW motorcycles (or BMW itself) and the development of pages on each individual model, in opposed to the current situation where some models are briefly referred on a BMW related page. This WikiProject would allow this community of people who are highly knowledgeable about this specific topic to develop articles in extreme depth, something not possible with larger groups, which could then be published on the world wide web, available gratis, as with all Wikipedia articles, to the public.

Please visit the project proposal page at: XXXXX, in order to see more details of the project and to offer your support. Any questions or queries can be posted either on the proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page.

Many thanks and I look forward to working with fellow enthusiasts on this project, which would be extremely interesting, and highly useful for all of us who are interested in BMW, its models and its history.

DAFMM (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

'WikiProject: BMW Motorcycle' Proposal

Dear XXXX,

Having seen your edits with regards to BMW motorcycles, I would like to make you aware that I am currently proposing this new WikiProject would have the primary aim of creating and developing a page for each model (both old and new) of BMW motorcycle produced in the company's history. This would enable a highly valuable resource to be for both enthusiasts and restorers such as myself to be created, where extensive information about specifications, development, modifications and the history behind could be found. Not only this, but it would encourage motorcycle enthusiasts, who would not normally have used Wikipedia, to both use its resources and to contribute to the project's pages, becoming part of the motorcycle fraternity which would be the driving force behind this community. Once this task has been completed of English Wikipedia, I, with help of other editors and members of the project, would like to then translate the pages into other languages (particularly German, in order to make the resources available in Germany, where many BMW enthusiasts and restorers are concentrated), and so contribute to the wider Wikipedia group. The WikiProject, would also contribute large numbers of pictures to Wikimedia, as part of its galleries.

In order to promote the group and encourage the growth of the articles in our scope, the WikiProject is not only being promoted to present editors who are currently active editing articles on BMW itself and motorcycles in general, but also notify groups such as the Vintage Motor Cycle Club and the BMW Club in the U.K., which would encourage members (20,000+) to contribute some of the extensive knowledge of the topic which is demonstrated by members of these clubs. Members of the WikiProject who are active in clubs outside of the U.K., would also be encouraged to promote the Project to their respective society, making the WikiProject multinational. Current, more experienced editors, would then help the 'new boys' to use Wikipedia and share their knowledge, which has often been built up during the course of a lifetime of passion for BMW motorcycles. This would enable us, together, to produce a resource which will help generations long into the future and help preserve and catalogue BMW's legacy in the motorcycle industry.

Currently, there are no such WikiProjects which would be dedicated solely to the BMW motorcycles (not even BMW itself) and the development of pages on each individual model, in opposed to the current situation where some models are briefly referred on a BMW related page. This WikiProject would allow this community of people who are highly knowledgeable about this specific topic to develop articles in extreme depth, something not possible with larger groups, which could then be published on the world wide web, available gratis, as with all Wikipedia articles, to the public.

If successful, the idea could serve as a blueprint and be replicated for other motorcycle manufacturers.

Please visit the project proposal page, in order to see more details of the project and to join. Please can any questions or replies to this be posted either on the discussion section of the proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page.

Many thanks and any help from fellow enthusiasts on this project would be greatly appreciated.

DAFMM (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion From WikiProject Council/Proposals/BMW Motorcycle

• Comment I would join this group. However, here are some users who object to me uploading and posting photos of BMW motorcycles. User:Biker Biker for one feels that when I upload a photo and include it in an article, I am "pushing" myself on Wikipedia even though this has been done thousands of times by hundreds or thousands of users.

  Thus this warning. If I contribute to your articles, you may well find my contributions repeatedly deleted by others who have their own agendas and apparently surveil me.

  Perhaps my better contribution to you would be to help you research models and answer questions.

  [http: //bmwdean.com/index.html The Dean of BMW Motorcycle Web Sites]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r100gs.htm R100GS]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r75.htm R75/5]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r60-2.htm R60/2]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r69s.htm R69S]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r68.htm R68]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r32.htm R32]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/scarlett.htm Red R60/2]]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r51.htm R51/3][http: //bmwdean.com/r67-3.htm R67/3]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r24.htm R24]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r1200rt.htm R1200RT]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/slash2.htm BMW /2s]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/r25-3.htm R25/3]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/weiss.htm Dover white R60/2]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/earles-fork.htm The Earles Fork]

  [http: //bmwdean.com/Stafford.htm The Art of BMW Motorcycle Restoration]

  --Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 16:21, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Any contributions, especially photos, would be greatly appreciated. I have just had a look at your web pages and they look very good indeed. It is these sorts of contributions and this knowledge which I mentioned in the description and which is invaluable for the task. Thank you very much for your interest hopefully we will be able to see some of your work transferred over to Wikipedia in the future! DAFMM (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I have another possibility for you to consider. You could email me your email address and I could then send you photos directly that way. You could upload them instead of me and then there would be no problem with the photos being used on Wikipedia because my name would not be associated with them, thus avoiding the "Dean surveillance." If you want to try this or have any other ideas, my email address is jeff@bmwdean.com.

F.Y.I.: Verill's web page Vech's web pageJeffrey M Dean (talk) 19:27, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok sure. I will drop you an email tomorrow if you think that's the best way forward. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 20:34, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the links by the way. The other very useful site based here in the U.K. is Phil Hawksley's BMBikes. DAFMM (talk) 20:49, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I'm all in favor of a new BMW Motorcycles WikiProject if it improves articles and increases participation, especially if it recruits new Wikipedians.

  However, the aims of the project cannot include "creating and developing a page for each model of BMW motorcycle", and the project's pages should not encourage editors to create a new article for every single BMW model. Doing so would contradict the guideline WP:Notability.

  Specifically, see WP:NRVE, where it says, "No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists: The evidence must show the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition." Just because a model of vehicle was designated by a company does not in itself imply a new article. Many "models" are just badge engineering or different names for geographic marketing purposes. There's nothing special about cars or motorcycles that gives them more notability than a film or a video game or a toaster. Each must meet notability on its own merits. See also WP:PRODUCT.

  This is not really bad news for the project. Many vehicles, and BMW Motorrad in particular, have numerous sub-models which are only trivially different. As David Robb said in the early 90s, "We had 19 models covering just two and a half market segments, and we were fighting ourselves for these sectors." There's no good reason to make readers browse between two articles just because one version had different size tires and a different handlebar. Many closely-related models belong in an umbrella article that includes an entire series, such as BMW GS.

  The BMW Motorcycles WikiProject's goals should be to create comprehensive coverage in a hierarchical way, beginning with BMW Motorrad and spawning new sub-articles as needed, per Wikipedia:Summary style. When sufficient material has accumulated in the parent article to justify a new article for a model, and WP:N is satisfied, then a new article might be called for. Often, an article that covers two or more related models is more useful and interesting for the reader because it includes more context, history, and logical narrative, e.g. Honda CB900F. Scattered stubs from a closely-related series can be annoying to browse, and relatively useless, and should be merged: e.g. Honda CBR600F, Honda CBR600F2, Honda CBR600F3, Honda CBR600F4 and Honda CBR600F4i.

  Note that other editors have Prod'd articles like BMW R1100RS that didn't assert notability. Having that happen to new editor recruited from the Vintage Motor Cycle Club or elsewhere is likely to discourage them from participating. Therefore it's better to encourage editors to only create new articles when justified, avoiding hurt feelings and frustration. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Many thanks for your views. By 'every model', I would propose a page for the 'R2' for example, and under that cover the Series 1, Series 2/33, Series 2A, Series 4 and so on, or a page on R25, not one on R25/1 and then another on R25/2 etc. (or perhaps in this instance one article which covers the R24, R25 and R27 since they were all developments of each other). Do you see this as more appropriate? There should easily be another information here to justify a new article. Thanks again and apologies for the previous ambiguity (I have since amended the description). DAFMM (talk) 17:13, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment There is nothing in this proposal that cannot be achieved with the current project though a task force will focus better on this one area of interest. There a few enough motorcycle editors available for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycling and the Wikipedia:WikiProject Motorcycle racing, which appears to be virtually dead, to effectively run a fully functional wikiproject. A far better suggestion is to have a specialise group to deal with the BMW article in the form of a Task Force of the active motorcycling project. That could be effective and still retain the close association needed to encourage other motorcycle editors to join in. Starting a separate wikiproject will likely cause the BMW material to be less well associated with the main project of which it is currently an integral part. There is absolutely nothing in the current project to stop or deter editors from writing more in depth articles about BMWs as appears to be a one justification by the proposer. ww2censor (talk) 16:46, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

But as them WikiProjects are 'virtually dead', is there really much point in trying to join that, and then be an active of a dormant group? As I suggested, if this group were to be successful in a few months, then I would stretch out and either create a wider group which this would then become a constituent member of, or promote the current 'WikiProject: Motorcycles' and encourage editors to build new/improve existing articles regarding their particular marque. Wouldn't it be easier to maintain smaller groups with specific interests, rather than have one large group, which really appears to be claiming all the articles but not doing anything? Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 17:20, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment I'm a bit reluctant to join the group simply because I have difficulty keeping up with my existing WikiProjects as is, but I support its creation and commend the initiative. I have mixed feelings as as to whether it's better as a task force or an independent WikiProject; It looks to me as if there may well be enough support for a fully fledged WikiProject, and if so, go for it.

There is definitely a need for something, as the BMW R1100RS debacle shows. IMO this should never have been deleted, it should have been merged and redirected to... where? We don't have an article on the model series of which it is part as far as I can see, but we do have an article on the BMW R1100GS. Perhaps History of BMW motorcycles#1983–2003 would be the only option at present, but it's not a good one; What we want is a higher-level article where the material from the deleted article can fit in (and I'm happy to recover that material and edit history when we do, as an admin that's exactly the sort of chore I'm supposed to address). Then when and if there's enough material to justify an article, we have a civilised discussion about splitting it out. Avoids all the problems. Putting old and new heads together to work on such issues is IMO the best part of any WikiProject.

This also touches on an important issue raised above. Probably we won't ever have an article for every single model designation. But for every model designation we should aim to (soon!) have at least a higher level article that does cover it, and a redirect from the specific model designation to the most detailed article that does cover it.

PS and let's not be scared of stubs. Good stubs make good WikiProjects (and conversely). Part of being a fully fledged WikiProject should be to have our own talk page header template and stub category. Andrewa (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Long term we can even develop our own notability guideline, to regulate the level of the lowest level articles. How many units have to be sold, races won, etc, to make a model (or series) notable? But I don't recommend jumping in to that yet. Focus on content, develop the structure as needed.

Other WikiProjects (maybe on cars or cameras?) will have dealt with this issue, there may even be something in the MOS, if not there should be. Andrewa (talk) 17:28, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the R1100GS/RS issue, the best solution I would see and what this project proposes is the creation of a page entitled R1100, which could then contain subsections with regards to the different variants etc.. Even if you do not have the time to contribute much, your support would be appreciated and we could keep you 'in the loop'. If you don't aim high, you can't get high! Many thanks for your support for the project and your comments. With compliments. DAFMM (talk) 17:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree that a BMW R1100 article is probably the way to go for now. We should have sections on the R1100GS and R1100RS, the GS section being a single sentence summary preceded by a {{main}} template pointing to the GS article, and as the RS article deletion was PROD rather than AFD I can then immediately undelete it and redirect it to the section. Andrewa (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok. If you want you can start and it can be the first example of the WikiProject's new system and we can see how it works. I will have more time in around a week's time and shall start an article on the R2, with the same format (ie. not have separate articles on the Series 1, 2/33/, 2A etc., but have them included under one article). Good luck with it! DAFMM (talk) 20:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

With regards to the idea about stubs, I shall create this WikiProject tomorrow and sort all of them sort of things out, and create some headers and stub categories and place them on the relevant pages. DAFMM (talk) 20:39, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I will also distribute the WikiProject page on the talk page of every user who has contributed regularly to the existing BMW motorcycle pages in order to promote the new ideas and hopefully gain some more users. Yes, if we start building the articles up we can then start concerning ourselves more with the structure of the project. DAFMM (talk) 20:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The deletion of BMW R1100RS is an easily fixed problem; no permanent harm done. Except that whichever editor created it probably feels snubbed by Wikipedia. That's the central issue for me; new editors often create articles before understanding Wikipedia, then leave in a huff when they're deleted. The solution is to not encourage article creation, and give them time to get the hang of things first.

Creating special notability rules for WikiProjects is a mistake. Any rules that you make which contradict WP:N are invalid anyway, and any valid rules you make will add a layer of unnecessary complexity. Better to work to make sure project members simply understand the General notability guideline; that's clear enough for any bike, airplane, pop song or politician. Keep it simple. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree that the real problem is the discouragement of new editors, specifically User:Iglooflame in this case. One of my earliest articles was vandalised... there is no other word for it... by an admin in retaliation for my creating what was admittedly a deletable sub-stub but is now an article. I assume he thought it was very funny, and he escaped all censure; Others admitted he'd done the wrong thing but offered nothing but rationalisations and expressions of surprise for behaviour which would probably have had me blocked had I been similarly funny. So I know the problem.

The matter of notability guidelines is academic for now, but I disagree that it would in any way contradict the GNG. The goal is just to provide some more specific criteria applicable to this area. On reflection it's also probably something that WikiProject Motorcycling, which will presumably be a parent WikiProject to this, should do rather than us. Andrewa (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I know where you're coming from with regards to the putting off of new users (when I fist started I got very ****** off when, three minutes after creating the article, I had some busy-body admin. wanting to delete the article. I couldn't believe it and it gave me a very negative view of how Wikipedia was run, and administrators in particular. I therefore think it would be agood idea if we had new users notify us of their present and we can look over them/show them how to go on when first editing, so that they don't learn the hard way and not run the risk of them leaving Wikipedia, but also earning our project a bad reputation. If demand were great enough, we could assign a position in the group, where one member could help the new users get on. DAFMM (talk) 10:59, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should start a WikiProject:Administrator Accountability, membership restricted to those who can provide a diff to prove they've been bitten by an admin when a newbie. Who knows, there might even be enough of us to organise local meetups. I predict they'd be enjoyable and well attended. But note the last sentence of paragraph 9 of User:Andrewa/creed. We're most of us volunteers, and all of us human so far AFAIK. The Board is very concerned about this whole issue, see Wikipedia:Teahouse.

And frankly, I've seen far more damage done by admin inactivity than overactivity. At one stage I endured some three months of repeated personal attacks from a highly POV single-issue user who had already bullied three other contributors, including one of the top ten experts in the world on the topic (no kidding), into leaving Wikipedia entirely. The mind boggles. That user is now banned, but the other three haven't been back AFAIK; My emails to the expert in question went unanswered and considering the history here I don't blame her. But there was absolutely no interest in this past history of the now-banned user, I was explicitly told it wasn't relevant, on several occasions. The leopard didn't change his spots so new evidence was continually produced and eventually accepted, and he reacted hysterically to the very first block and an indefinite ban was then very quickly agreed. Better late then never I guess, but if, as an admin with a pretty good record if I do say so myself, I'm so helpless in that situation, what chance have good-faith newbies who are unlucky enough to come to the attention of such a character? It's a jungle out here. Andrewa (talk) 11:35, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Great idea! Let's get started! We've already got two members!!! There would be loads!!! I'll create it this evening and send you the details. DAFMM (talk) 13:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

• Comment It does appear to me that small WikiProjects, with coordination between a small number of knowledgeable and passionate users wrking together with a head in contact with the members in order to administer and monitor the WikiProject's works would be much more effective than this current system of large WikiProjects, which require too much work for one person to maintain and so become neglected and lack any form of administration or encouragement for the members (many of whom join the group for the sake of it, and contribute nothing). You then argue for 'Task Forces', but how can these be effective when they are part of a dormant, massive organisation (such as WikiProject: Motorcycles and the likes) which really are achieving nothing whatsoever. I am sure that a small team such as the one which is forming here could achieve much more than WikiProject: Motorcycles alone. Just some thoughts. DAFMM (talk) 20:47, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

A BMW fan club clusterfuck belongs at Wikia.org not Wikipedia. And this looks like this is off to a bad start if certain people are already assuming bad faith and starting to throw around accusations. That said, I'm all in favour of improving any motorcycle-related articles but like others I'm not sure it needs a separate project, just enough enthused people to drive it forward under the umbrella of the existing motorcycling project. --Biker Biker (talk) 22:04, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:Civility. It is not optional. Andrewa (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I presume you think I am being uncivil because I used "clusterfuck"? I simply couldn't think of another word that better explained what I fear - that a bunch of self-interested single purpose authors should presume to take ownership of a small group of articles and edit the to the exclusion of everybody else e.g. people who presume that because they are members of BMW MOA (or similar single make club) that they know better than anybody else about the topic. That would go against so many things that Wikipedia stands for. If it didn't develop into that then would I participate? Yes of course, I have already made significant contributions to BMW motorcycle-related articles and will continue to do so. Like Dennis Bratland I'm keen to ensure that contributions are based on verifiability not personal knowledge - one of the pillars that Wikipedia is built on. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:41, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid I think that does infringe the civility guideline, not all that badly granted. But better to steer clear of any such emotive terms I think, even if it means using a few more words, as you have above. Having had some friends in the Sydney Gypsy Jokers (years ago now admittedly) I'm quite able to handle communication in which almost every noun and verb is preceded with a word that starts with F, but here is not the place for it.

Verifiability and personal knowledge are not incompatible. An early moto of Wikipedia was write about what you know about or are prepared to learn about. But agree that ownership can be a problem, in fact IMO it already is with respect to some other motorcycling articles [1]. My experience is that WikiProjects lead to greater compliance with the verifiability and ownership policies rather than less, but I'm sure it can go both ways. Andrewa (talk) 07:52, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Well I don't think that "clusterfuck", or the even more accurate "wankfest", are uncivil. Inappropriate language in the eyes of some, maybe, but not uncivil. Anyway, it's good to see we agree that there is a potential for problem that needs to be carefully watched. --Biker Biker (talk) 08:07, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

There is a potential problem, particularly when members have opposing emotive feelings on the topic. However, the idea of merely quoting other works does put of many people, particularly those new users who already have an established knowledge which has been picked up over time from a variety of different sources during the course of their lifetime's interest. I'm not saying don't use references, but merely allow more flex in the system for innovation and new ideas. We should be encouraging users to share their knowledge, not criticising them and eventually causing them to say 'ohhh bugger it'. DAFMM (talk) 11:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

But "merely quoting other works" is the fundamental principle of Wikipedia. It is based on verifiability (WP:V) not original research (WP:OR). That's why I mentioned wikia.org which has no such rules and is the perfect place for hobbyists and enthusiasts who want to fill their boots by building the biggest and best online resource for BMW motorcycles, or beer jugs, or comic books, etc. Domain knowledge is not a pre-requisite for editing Wikipedia articles - instead an author needs to be prepared to do research and cite his/her sources, then write content in a neutral manner. --Biker Biker (talk) 11:31, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but I was questioning the fundamentals on which Wikipedia is based. DAFMM (talk) 13:05, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Something's not right here. Is the goal here to improve BMW motorcycle articles? Or to create some kind of insurgent project fork with looser verifiability rules? There are appropriate venues to criticize the way Wikipedia is run, but a new project, with new editors, is absolutely the last place to bring that up. Don't bite the newbies? Yes. Try to change the course of Wikipedia with a new WikiProject on motorcycles? No. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:39, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Broadly agree. There are some worrying aspects emerging here. But I'm still prepared to support the WikiProject. Motorcyclists (I'm not one) do seem to be a bit high maintenance, from prior experience both in and out of Wikipedia, but if a group of editors want to form a WikiProject for the right reasons, then the fact that some of them have some ulterior motives as well shouldn't disqualify it. Andrewa (talk) 09:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, let's make this clear if people have been lead astray by my comments. This is a WikiProject concerned with improving the current situation with regards to articles on BMW motorcycles. We should take note that the actions of this WikiProject are ones which one could see as being part of the halycon days of Wikipedia, centered on the improvement of BMW articles on the site, regardless of any internal conflicts and debates which may be taking place. DAFMM (talk) 17:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Another option is to form a Special Interest Group under WikiProject Motorcycling. I'm not sure how they differ from task forces, I've never heard of one before, just noticed them! Andrewa (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's a better option. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:42, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Are they really that effective though, or again somewhere where a couple of users demonstrate their interest in that marque? A new WikiProject would be able to work independent of a bulky, disorganised organisation such as WikiProject: Motorcycling. The ideas regarding notability etc. which you are proposing have not been dealt with efectively by that WikiProject, so we, who are merely a 'Special Interest Group' under that organisation, would then be writing the rules for it. Are we best starting from scratch, finding out for ourselves with this relatively small BMW project and then applying it to other similar projects on different marques, which would use the same guidelines and ideas as this one, methods already tested and proven by a small number of dedicated users actually doing something on this project. They could then become part of a 'WikiFamily' of groups, where they were merely constituents of a pasive 'Family' or similar Projects, with different members working independent on their own subject ideas in each separate project, allowing a close knit community to develop, with their own independence and power, who would be using our ideas and organisation as a ready-to-go basis which they could work from, knowing it was effective. They would then not be held up by the bulkiness and disorganisation of one primary, much larger WikiProject, such as WikiProject: Motorcycling, which merely confuses things for users. DAFMM (talk) 11:19, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorcycling is nothing like that, and there's no basis for thinking a task force would be hindered by being under WikiProject Motorcycling. The idea of a separate project which explicitly intends to use different standards of notability, or article content, or a different manual of style, is guaranteed to run right into strong opposition. Not only from the motorcycling project members, but from any Wikipedian who understands policy and guidelines and the MOS.

This should be a task force, not a project. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 15:48, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the proposal regarding notability standards was: (i) to clarify the application of GNG, not to override it, similarly to all the other detailed notability guidelines already listed at GNG; (ii) something that would be part of the parent WikiProject Motorcycling rather than just applicable to BMW models; and (iii) proposed as a future possibility, not an immediate or core objective. Andrewa (talk) 01:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

'WikiProject: BMW Motorcycle' Proposal

I am currently proposing this new WikiProject would have the primary aim of creating and developing a page for each model (both old and new) of BMW motorcycle produced in the company's history. This would enable a highly valuable resource to be for both enthusiasts and restorers such as myself to be created, where extensive information about specifcations, development, modifications and the history behind could be found. Not only this, but it would encourage motorcycle enthusiasts, who would not normally have used Wikipedia, to both use its resources and to contribute to the project's pages, becoming part of the motorcycle fraternity which would be the driving force behind this community. Once this task has been completed of English Wikipedia, I, with help of other editors and members of the project, would like to then translate the pages into other languages (particularly German, in order to make the resources available in Germany, where many BMW enthusiasts and restorers are concentrated), and so contribute to the wider Wikipedia group. The WikiProject, would also contribute large numbers of pictures to Wikimedia, as part of its galleries.

In order to promote the group and encourage the growth of the articles in our scope, the WikiProject is not only being promoted to present editors who are currently active editing articles on BMW itself and motorcycles in general, but also notify groups such as the Vintage Motor Cycle Club and the BMW Club in the U.K., which would encourage members (20,000+) to contribute some of the extensive knowledge of the topic which is demonstrated by members of these clubs. Members of the WikiProject who are active in clubs outside of the U.K., would also be encouraged to promote the Project to their respective society, making the WikiProject multinational. Current, more experienced editors, would then help the 'new boys' to use Wikipedia and share their knowledge, which has often been built up during the course of a lifetime of passion for BMW motorcycles. This would enable us, together, to produce a resource which will help generations long into the future and help preserve and catalogue BMW's legacy in the motorcycle industry.

Currently, there are no such WikiProjects which would be dedicated solely to the BMW motorcycles (not even BMW itself) and the development of pages on each individual model, in opposed to the current situation where some models are briefly referred on a BMW related page. This WikiProject would allow this community of people who are highly knowledgeable about this specific topic to develop articles in extreme depth, something not possible with larger groups, which could then be published on the world wide web, available gratis, as with all Wikipedia articles, to the public.

If successful, the idea could serve as a blueprint and be replicated for other motorcycle manufacturers.

Please visit the project proposal page, in order to see more details of the project and to join. Any questions or queries can be posted either on the proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page.

Many thanks and any help from fellow enthusiasts on this project would be greatly appreciated.

DAFMM (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if you realise there was little point is wasting lots of talk page space placing the same long post on several pages. You should have just posted the details on one appropriate page. or even just the proposal page, such as the Motorcycling wikiproject page and you could place a simple link to that discussion on the other pages. That way you avoid the possibility of people starting discussions about the same topic on different page. The proper place to suggest new project is at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/BMW Motorcycle which you started and all discussion should take place there. You might consider revising all those postings. Hope that helps you see the wider picture. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:25, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I understand, but I was merely publicising the idea of the new WikiProject and thought it would be more appealing to users if the details were posted to them, instead of just referring them to a link. I did say in the comments 'any queries should go on the project proposal page, or I can be contacted directly on my talk page' (paraphrased), in order to try and avoid the situation you quoted. With compliments. DAFMM (talk) 17:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

As you can see, Biker-Biker deleted all the resources I added. If I add something, B-B will delete it. Sorry about that. He will always do that. Therefore, I will refrain from contributions. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 23:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Sometimes though you can't help but get infuriated by other peoples' edits. I placed the BMW logo on the Special Interet Group page from the main BMW article and it got deleted a matter of hours later on copyright issues!!! I haven't checked my emails yet but will do later on. DAFMM (talk) 10:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Just looked at his work and good God! He's deleted my stuff as well! It's just a constant stream of quotes from the Wikipedia manuals. See my comment on there. I couldn't believe it! DAFMM (talk) 10:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC) P.S. Looking at his talk page he's got quite a reputation for such things.

I 'm sorry to see that you have removed your name from the members list and feel really ashamed that you have been forced from the group. It is people like you who we need to expand the articles and I can't help but feel pissed off that other members seem completely oblivious to this, especially when they use all these petty rules as an excuse. DAFMM (talk) 11:37, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

B-B spends so much time on Wikipedia, mostly messing with other peoples' work, that I don't see how he can have a life outside of Wikipedia. He is obsessed with Wikipedia and may not do anything else with his life. It is kinda of sad. He has caused me to stop doing anything on Wikipedia before, and has done it again. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 11:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your note to B-B. I doubt it will have any effect on the martinet. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 13:32, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

No problem. I felt something, however small, needed to be said about it. It really is stupid though. The only way to counter it is for you to carry on regardless and if he does delete or change anything one of us will just revert it. I've done that before and they do always get very wound up (and it usually ends up with one of them silly calm down time out sessions) but it might do him some good to have someone counter him. DAFMM (talk) 13:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC) P.S. He boasts about having 25000+ edits, so point taken!!!!

Thanks again. But I do not care for the aggravation. I can live happily without Wikipedia, but it was fun before B-B targeted me and, perhaps, others. He or she (unlike you and me, he or she is anonymous) should get a life. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 14:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

True. Well, please keep in touch and I'll keep you updated with the developments. Would I still be able to contact you on your talk page as an 'advisor' to the group (I could put you down as a 'Technical Advisor' instead of a member - that would piss him off!!!!). The only other alternative is to create a completely different account which has no connecton whatsoever with your name and/or previous accounts. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 14:09, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

You have my email address. Use that for "consultation." B-B cannot see our email. I look forward to hearing from you. If you posted my photos it would some sort of violation of Wiki policy. Surely B-B would sniff it out. Jeffrey M Dean (talk) 14:33, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

By the way, if you would like those photos you mentioned posting I can do them with pleasure. If not, no worries. Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I don't mind trying. Speak to you soon. DAFMM (talk) 15:27, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorcycling BMW Motorcycles Special Interest Group

(Posted to: User: Andrewa and User: Biker Biker).

Now created: WikiProject Motorcycling BMW Motorcycles. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 13:16, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Japanese?

(From: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/BMW Motorcycles)

Why does this page talk about bringing owners of Japanese motorcycles together? Is that a leftover typo from the template used to create this group? Ebikeguy (talk) 14:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sorry about that. I used the Japanese one as a template and must have missed something. Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Motorcycling Wikiproject

Welcome to the Motorcycling WikiProject. Hopefully you have a good time, start many new articles and can contribute lots to the existing ones as we need that. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 15:32, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Non-free BMW logo image use

Sorry, but under non-free policy WP:NFCC#9 you are not allowed to use a non-free image anywhere other than in article, so this edit needs to be deleted or modified. Please find another freely licenced image. You can't use it here either. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 15:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I presume you were not online since I posted the previous note as nothing was done all day, so I have removed and/or hidden the image. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 00:06, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I was out until late last night. Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 10:29, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

No problem. I assume you did not know of that prohibition. ww2censor (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

No, not at all. I just presumed that it's use in the BMW page of the site is the same using it on any other page. Anyway, doesn't matter as the one which has replaced it of a flat twin on a circuit looks very good. DAFMM (talk) 22:18, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

External links

(From: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/BMW Motorcycles)

Let's be 100% clear about the use of external links in articles, whether they are listed at the end in the "External links" section, or used as references.

• External links - There are a number of criteria listed at WP:ELNO which state why a link should not be used. The single most important of these is the first, which states "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article."
• References - We must comply with WP:RS. Most internet sites run by enthusiastic amateurs, or even formal clubs, are not reliable resources. This also includes blogs and forums.

Happy to discuss further, but fundamentally this group has to comply with Wikipedia policy. It has no waiver, and no extra rights inferred upon it as a special interest group. --Biker Biker (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

But, Phil Hawksley's site which I posted was quoting official BMW resources, not just make them up and writing them down off the top of his head. There has got to be some leeway to be dictated by common sense. For example, what if your official BMW site were to be biased to its successes? Would you then be quoting biased sources just to comply with the regulations? Any good article does not just quote from one primary source, no matter how reliable it is supposed to be. DAFMM (talk) 10:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I used to think that Phil's site was a reliable source and used it myself as a reference in many articles - some of which are still there. However, other editors convinced me otherwise. Phil is a nice guy, but he is someone who runs a BMW repair business and is a member of the BMW Club GB. He isn't a published author, he isn't (to me) a recognised expert, he is just an enthusiastic amateur. What do others think of Phil's site - www.bmbikes.co.uk --Biker Biker (talk) 18:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I hadn't seen this when I just posted on your talk page. He does appear to be using BMW Motorrad sources, like the one which you deemed acceptable for use. I know of other people in the vintage world, and specialists recognised by the VMCC who have recommended the site to me. DAFMM (talk) 19:58, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

To me http://www.bmbikes.co.uk/ is in the same class of sites like http://suzukicycles.org/ but nowhere near as bad as sites like www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/. It's great that they collected this information, but they only vaguely say where they got it. If these sites gave you sufficient information about their source publications to find and verify it, you'd have a starting point, at least. But mostly you have to take their word for it that they got it from BMW's official publications. Which means that it is of limited help to a Wikipedia editor -- I've still got to go track down the original publication if I want to cite it here.

Note that banal statistics like wheelbase or bore × stroke are almost always uncontroversial, and unlikely to be challenged. So a citation isn't absolutely required anyway; you can just put it in the article if you got it from someplace you trust. (But no copy-pastes of tables! It must be reformatted.)

With power, torque, speed and fuel consumption, manufacturer claims are pretty useless. Kevin Ash recently reported that BMW got caught red handed inflating their numbers, and that's par for the motorcycle industry. Some flack who works for MV Agusta has been repeatedly putting in their marketing department's fanciful 312km/h for one of their bike's top speed in List of fastest production motorcycles lately. And doesn't F4 R303 sound cooler anyway? In most cases we should leave performance stats blank unless an independent source is available. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 20:10, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

That's interesting about the manufacturer specifications and it certainly doesn't surprise me. You'd just quote them as the manufacturer's published claims, possibly with a note that true values could vary. DAFMM (talk) 22:22, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

It's also a good example of why we need more than just the BMW Motorrad page on our 'Resources' page. DAFMM (talk) 09:06, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Specifically I put the manufacturer's history site there, not the main sales site. But I agree there could be other links, just as long as they meet WP:ELNO if they are to be added as relevant links to articles, or WP:RS if they are to be used as references. None of the links that I removed complied with those policies. --Biker Biker (talk) 09:13, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

So what's our first target?

(From: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/BMW Motorcycles)

So we have a few people now, what's the first order of business? Should we target some of the existing articles and improve them, or should we write something new? My suggestion is that we start with History of BMW motorcycles. --Biker Biker (talk) 06:38, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is a good starting point. Any people with a specific interest in one type of bike would also be encouraged to create a new article on that in order to begin our comprehensive coverage of every model (in the next few days I'm going to do one on the R2 series as a basis). I am also going to promote the group over Wikipedia in the forthcoming days in order to make everyone who is interested in this area aware so we can get as much help as possible. Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 10:43, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

I see you have done the BMW R2 article. I made a few style changes, remove the unreliable references, then put a couple of better ones back in. You made a good start. Nice job. --Biker Biker (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. My next big one is an article on the R25. However, I am undecided as to whether to add to the R27 article by adding the R24 and R25 histories or do them individually. Although they were all fifties 250 singles, they followed one another and did have significant changes between each other. They then had small changes made (eg. the R25/1, R25/2 etc..) during their respective productions runs. What do you think? DAFMM (talk) 16:55, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

One issue which was raised during the proposal was that of the R1200GS article and whether it should be merged with the R1200R and R1200RT articles. I am not an expert on these models, but would someone be up for combining these pages into one R1200 article which covers all variants? Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 16:59, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I think R1200R needs to be expanded, but the R1200GS and R1200RT have enough content to stand alone - and should remain separate. b.t.w. Please get in the habit of using the correct links to articles, e.g. BMW R1200RT not R1200RT. --Biker Biker (talk) 20:43, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't realise. And I agree with them being kept separate. DAFMM (talk) 08:38, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

'History of BMW motorcycles'

(From: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorcycling/BMW Motorcycles)

I know it sounds pedantic but isn't it a bit silly having a major page like that without correct grammar (the non-capital 'm' of 'motorcycles')? Thoughts..... DAFMM (talk) 22:34, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Isn't BMW Motorrad the proper noun? BMW motorcycles is the common noun, and so it's not capitalized, per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). The page could be moved to History of BMW Motorrad, which is consistent with BMW Motorrad. On the other hand, keeping it where it is is more consistent with pages like Kawasaki motorcycles. So either would be fine, but if it ain't broke don't fix it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:58, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Agree with Dennis on both points. Happy to see the page moved if the name "BMW Motorrad" has been used consistently through its history and isn't just a recent brand / marketing affectation. --Biker Biker (talk) 09:14, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

It's not 'BMW Motorrad' which is the problem (in German, any noun uses a capital first letter). It's just as a title, 'BMW motorcycles' needs two capitals. But then if all the other articles are using that trend it's probably not worth bothering about. DAFMM (talk) 20:55, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying BMW motorcycles is a proper noun? How so? Only the first word of an article title is capitalized unless it's a proper noun. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:29, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether it's a proper noun or not, if it is in a title. For example, 'The Very Happy Fish'; here, the definitve article, the adjective nor the noun (which is not a proper noun) would normally need a capital, but in tis case (let's say it's the title of a book) does need a capital. DAFMM (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

That's not Wikipedia's naming convention. It makes all the difference if it's a proper noun. Read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). The first sentence is, in bold, "Do not capitalize the second or subsequent words in an article title, unless the title is a proper noun." Elsewhere the style is different, but that's how it's done on Wikipedia. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:21, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry DAFMM but motorcycles just in not a proper noun. ww2censor (talk) 08:24, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't matter whether it's a proper noun or not! It's not style, it's grammar, but if that's Wikipedia's convention then I suppose it's best sticking to it. DAFMM (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Please see: http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp and http://grammar.yourdictionary.com/capitalization/rules-for-capitalization-in-titles.html for some reference. DAFMM (talk) 16:45, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's what two style guides say. But there are other style guides, and none is supreme. Wikipedia has chosen to follow the The Chicago Manual of Style and Fowler's Modern English Usage (Third edition). It's mentioned the WP MOS article above. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:58, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I'll have to have a look at Fowler's. I was pretty sure it was more strict but with it being the 'Modern Englsh Usage' edition it wouldn't surprise me. DAFMM (talk) 17:05, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia doeesn't always follow everything in Fowler's. Or the Chicago Manual. Just go by the WP:MOS and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). If something there looks wrong, suggest a change at the talk page for the policy or the guideline. At the article or project level, you have to just do what the policies and guidelines say. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:08, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Development

(Posted on the BMW R2 talk page).

THIS PAGE IS STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT. YOUR PATIENCE IS APPRECIATED. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 18:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Sources

(Posted on the BMW R2 talk page).

I will provide a more varied supply of sources from published texts, but my books are currently boxed away so I will have to find them all first. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 20:01, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

BMW R2 Article

(Posted to: User: George Ponderevo).

Just to say thank you for the major edit banner you placed on the BMW R2 page which I was creating. It was very useful and I didn't previously know about it. Many thanks. DAFMM (talk) 20:16, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. I saw you put a notice on the talk page, but nobody would have seen it there. George Ponderevo (talk) 20:30, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

July 2012

Copyright violation

You need to be really careful about copyright violation. You can't just copy/paste information from other internet pages as you did from Phil Hawksley's site. See WP:COPYVIO. The same is also true for images that you upload to Wikimedia Commons. They must be released under a clear licence or be free of copyright e.g. by merit of age. Any questions don't hesitate to ask. The R2 article is a good start, but needs to reliable third party references e.g. books or BMW's historical records http://www.bmw-motorrad.com/com/en/fascination/history/historic_bikes/bikes_main.html --Biker Biker (talk) 23:13, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Please try to format numbers correctly, using non-breaking spaces and commas as appropriate. Using the {{convert}} template is a good idea as this does it for you. You should also insert correct links. I have had to change nearly every wikilink at BMW R32 to point to the correct article. If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask. --Biker Biker (talk) 23:37, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok, liked the BMW source, but please take note of how the information is the same as that of BMBikes, so why is there such a question of reliability? I do except that it is better quoting direct from BMW. As for the copyright, I can't see what claim he has on it, for it is not his 'original research', he has just gathered the information from the BMW archives, or other books, like we're doing. So, how can claim the copyright on it? Just a thought. Thanks. DAFMM (talk) 16:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

It isn't about whether he has copyright. You cannot copy/paste something that is on the Internet unless it is explicitly released under a compatible licence. Furthermore you cannot even link to something that is in itself copyright infringing as it looks like a lot of Hawksley's work might be - see WP:ELNEVER. --Biker Biker (talk) 17:31, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Ok. DAFMM (talk) 08:36, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

WikiProject Motorcycling BMW Special Interest Group

I would like to let you know about a new Special Interest Group (WikiProject Motorcycling BMW Motorcycles) has been created for BMW motorcycles in collaboration with WikiProject Motorcycling.

The aim of the group is to create an in-depth article on every model group (eg. one page on the R25, not one on the R25/1, one on the R25/2 etc.), in addition to maintaining and imrpoving the existing articles on BMW motorcycles and BMW Motorrad's history.

Any help would be greatly appreciated in this task and please join on the members section of the group's page if you would like to offer your support.

Many thanks for your time.

DAFMM (talk) 08:53, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

Unreferenced Tag on R2 Page

(Posted to: User talk: Biker Biker).

I have just removed the 'unreferenced tag' from the top of the R2 page, for it stated that the article 'cites no sources' (paraphrased) when there were now three reliable sources which you added. Isn't there something that says more references are needed? I just felt an 'unreferenced tag' was unjustified.

Many thanks.

DAFMM (talk) 22:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)