Hello Cyrus111! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some recommended guidelines to facilitate your involvement. Happy Editing!
Cyrus111, I am not extremely experimented with Wikipedia but it seems to me that, as a rule, people who put a "Neutrality is disputed" sign must justify it. In general, this is after they have tried to modify or add something and have faced some opposition. It would really be nice to expose what should be added or suppressed. Please look at [1]. In short, the wikipedia community deserves at least some explanation. Could you please discuss? Alain1021:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There are two entries at Wikipedia, which have falsely created -- they are Turco-Persian and Turko-Persian Tradition. Both entries are factitious. I have requested the entries to be deleted. My reasons are:
The term Turko-Persian Tradition (or Turco-Persian) does not exists academically and it is a factitious entry! Check the Encyclopaedia Iranica to confirm -- The correct name for that culture is the Persianate culture not the "Turko-Persian". Turkophones (mostly of mixed race and Persianized in culture) only spoke in Turkic dialects and were in the military. That is not enough participation in creating and forming the culture to deserve the name "Turko-Persian Tradition" – This is misinformation. All the elements in that area, which have to do with tradition and culture, were drawn from the Iranian culture (Persian, Kurdish, Azari, Baluchi, Tajik, Luri, Gilaki, Talishi, Mazandarani, etc.), and the Islamic faith, not much Turkic elements (like shamanism, yurts etc.) were incorporated in. That is what makes the name "Turko-Persian" an imaginary one and therefore the entry should be deleted.
Cyrus, idf you wish to create an article on the meaning of Aryan within Iranian culture, but please stop trying to tuern the Aryan race article into something it was not intended to be. Paul B12:29, 23 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What's the point of that section? Recent events and news should go to wikinews, the article here is not and should not be a current events article. Be nazareh man in aslan idea khubi nist, boro pakesh kon or there will be no end to it... --Mardavich02:15, 30 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know what you're saying, amaa daari eshtebah bozorgi mikoni, in bakhsh yek "Pandora's Box" hast, tou alan yek chizi nevehsti, fardaa 4 nafar az hamoon afraadi ke tou media tabligh mikonan miaan hamoon bakhshi rou ke tou dorost kardi baa neyaat khub rou, hijack mikonan tabdlisesh mikonan be yek POV fork. Kami amightaar be in masaleh fekr kon. There is no need for this, current events issues don't belong on an encyclopedia page. --Mardavich16:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Cyrus, please read WP:3rr and refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Right now, you have reverted Iran three times in 4 hours, so you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia if you make another revert within the next 20 hours. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. --Mardavich 05:15, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome your help to create new content, but your recent additions (such as [[{{{1}}}]]) are considered nonsense. Please refrain from creating nonsense articles. If you want to test things out, edit the sandbox instead. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. ffmyes?02:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I though it necessary to link each section to it's main article. I also added the red map. Have a nice day. Bedrood --Arad02:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With that Phraates coin picture, I am not questioning "the message" but rather the source for the translation. We need a source that says that the coin' inscription means what you say it does. Please undo your edits and restore the {cn} tag until someone provides a citation for the translation. I don't want to edit war with you on this but I am certain that my approach is correct. Thanks. The Behnam19:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We need the citation or we use the citation needed tag simply because the translation is not obvious. This shouldn't be difficult if, as you say, the citation is somewhere on the Phraates page. However, I do find it troubling that you seem to be pressing to include the translation to prove a point about Iran's view on Greeks and other nations. We shouldn't include information to send a message as we are supposed to adhere to a neutrality policy. Anyway, just cite the translation and we should be alright. Thanks. The Behnam19:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, thanks, but we aren't supposed to source to WP. We need to find the actual source for the translation and then use that as a citation. If you don't do it I'll get around to it eventually, but please do it if you can. Thanks in advance for trying. The Behnam19:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Shahram gave you the 'National Merit' award above. He forgot to sign so it was hard to know that he gave it, not me. I've added the 'unsigned' message after the award to make it clear. The Behnam16:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Dear uploader: The media file you uploaded as Image:Rumi111.jpg has been listed for speedy deletion because you selected a copyright license type implying some type of restricted use, such as for non-commercial use only, or for educational use only or for use on Wikipedia by permission. While it might seem reasonable to assume that such files can be freely used on Wikipedia, this is in fact not the case[2][3]. Please do not upload any more files with these restrictions on them, because content on Wikipedia needs to be compatible with the GNU Free Documentation License, which allows anyone to use it for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial. See our non-free content guidelines for more more information.
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Are you and this IP the same individual? If so, then this has been the source of the confusion. Please do not make a talk page comment then edit it with an IP address. This makes other users believe that an act of vandalism is occurring as it is not appropriate for people to edit the comments of other users.--Strothra (talk) 03:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have to be careful about the inclusion of genetic evidence in the Aryan race article. We nned to be clear that the evidence is simply being used to comment on two different but related concepts. One is the concept that some or all members of the historical IE-speaking peoples are closely related. The other is the concepts that genetic markers can be identified which are linked to IE migrations. The latter does not necessarily imply close relatedness. There are a number of sources on this Spencer Wells is the best known, and of course Oppenheimer discusses this. We have to be very careful not to be simply throwing in gene-speak to support or deny some particular vision ofan "Aryan race", but rather to relate modern evidence to specific claims that have been made. Paul B (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
please avoid uploading images with titles such as "Image:203623804 5d60b5f927.jpg" and no source information. Come on, you should know this by now. Also, it is spelled out to you in giant flashing letters every time you upload an image. dab(𒁳)19:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found this quote somewhere: You also deleted the flashmap from a scholar, referring to the R1a page. I suppose it was removed for being a sensitive topic, though copyrighs might have been involved. Maybe it would have been more relevant at the Urheimat page. Could you please give me a link to this map? What was the name of the scholar/publication? Just curious. Thanks! Rokus01 (talk) 20:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comment. I am ready to help you with the article. In a few days I will probably write a bit in the discussion area. You can start a topic in the discussion area already now, and I will start contributing and participating. SenseOnes (talk) 19:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think your contribution to Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA) and your discussion on TALK to promote your off topic additions, show a disturbing lack of coherence. Your unrealistic claims to "consensus" and "scholarly opinion" make me wonder how serious you really are. Wrong observations, bad reasoning, original research promoting single points of view, blatant ignorance on the subject and disrespect for WP rules are no proper base to justify edit warring. Please don't create conditions that would result to an incident, or denouncing vandalism. Rokus01 (talk) 15:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well again, this are your personal feelings and thoughts towards your interest in the haplogroups of people in Iran and central asia. Your near rude accusations wont change facts from scholars.Cyrus111 (talk) 16:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is your representation is changing facts, and creates new ones. This is called WP:OR (original research). Please come up with a new proposal in order I can look at it instead of throwing it away at first sight. Anyway, I already requested a third opinion on this and suppose we'll have to wait for this first.Rokus01 (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It´s not creating new facts, I am linking the r1a1 with PIE and so called "Aryans" with the chariot the language the dom of the horse-according to scholary work, not my own. I too can also get "anothers opinion".. I am not working to please your personal liking whether you will throw it away or not at first sight is your thing, it has nothing to do with me who are editing an article by adding facts and sources for others as well. Why dont you just do a section where you try to disprove the scholars work...Cyrus111 (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cyrus, the fact that the distribution of R1a has been associated with the PIE expansion is no reason to turn the R1a article into the Proto-Indo-Europeans article. Your contributions do not violate NOR as Rokus alleges, but you need to pay attention to WP:SYNTH and WP:UNDUE (as, of course, does Rokus. this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black). dab(𒁳)12:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dbachmann, still full of misconceptions about me? You should know NOR also includes WP:SYNTH: "Material put together in a way that constitutes original research". Don't confuse this with compiling information around a certain thema, which is encyclopedic. However, in the case of Cyrus compiling sourced references in a certain way by WP:SYNTH is not the real issue. The problem is the sourced references don't support his WP:UNDUEWP:OR for a bit. I don't know yet what policy he is violating by putting references around his claims using quotes that don't match, still this looks a pretty serious violation of something. Rokus01 (talk) 20:24, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, Cyrus111. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.
We cannot use this image in any articles: it is unencyclopedic. It is the original research, not of yourself, but of hjholm.de where you took it. So even if "permission was granted by scholar" as you claim, we cannot use it. Quite apart from this, you'll need to deposit a confirmation of your claim with Wikimedia's ticket system, you cannot just say "granted by scholar" and copy a map off the internet. You are an experienced user. Please try to finally begin to respect Wikipedia's copyright policies. dab(𒁳)13:02, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. I am not much into genetics, but your edits in that article do not seem to be correct. I won't revert your edits again, but I think that experts are needed to solve the problem. Cheers. --Al-Fanā (talk) 14:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
NP, not using it at the moment, so go ahead delete it ASAP, but the image may be used using a ref to the site where one got it, it clearly states this, ok then best regards Cyrus111 (talk) 04:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This editor is an Apprentice Editor and is entitled to display this Service Badge.
I award you with This service badge because of your numerous efforts so far on Wikipedia. I am not supposed to give you this award because you should give it to yourself but I felt that your contributions so far shouldn't go unnoticed. Good Luck!Ardeshire Babakan (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Northern Siberia is scarcely populated so a few Russian industrial towns offset the N (Y-DNA) & keeps it around 47% in general. The map could be improved please add in your own material or give me specific additions (studies).Cadenas2008 (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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Cyrus my friend only East Iran is 35%, thats why I only made the mpa to the Eastern strip. Russian population concentration is in the West, thats why the Eastern part doesn't really change their frequency.
North Indians are about 48% R1a, but the whole nation is about 20% R1a
East Iranians are about 35% R1a, but when you average all of Iran its a little bit under 20% R1a
If you need all the studies done on Iran give me an email. Its just better to keep information clean, I will not edit anything I hope you do that. Also R1a doesn't = Phenotype is this whats confusing you?
Indian MTDNA that mixed with R1a was not the Same as Iranian MTDNA that mixed with R1a so you have 2 different Phenotypes, Also Iran has R1b in the North West thats why its not all R1a.
Cameroon has 40% + R1 that doesn't mean they are more European than Greece! Its just genetic ancestory. Don't let it bother you! CheersCadenas2008 (talk) 16:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Surely noone is bothered by this debate thing are we to learn and grow or be bothered? I´ll thank you for the explanation this is good wikipediabehaviour.
I know that the frequency of r1a in Iran is diff in diff parts but if the average is 20 % for the whole country then redo the map covering all Iran on average with 20% like for instance Sweden (Sweden, 20%). Despite the genetic variety in Iran like K, R, R1, R1a, R1b, R2, I, J, J1, J2, Anthropologist terms the majority of the population in Iran and Afghanistan as Irano-Afghans based on Physical Anthropology and morphology. Also cover Pakistan and Turkey on your map. I will reedit to last version covering the diff parts of Iran.Cyrus111 (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Phenotype is a whole diff subject & I hope people don't use Genotypes as a marker for Phenotype, for example many African Americans have R1b. You simply (Y-DNA) from the father lineage it doesn't always translate into a Phenotype.
Turkey has a low frequency of R1a (more R1b, similar to North West Iran & Armenia), Iran Central-Western regions are more populated so you need to to do more math to figure out whats the exact percentage. East Iran is the concentrated region of R1a, regarding Pakistan you can assume its 48% like Northern India because its surrounded by two high R1a frequencies thats why I shaded in the same color.
Bro, the page headline says Haplogroup R1a (Y-DNA). I am not simply Y-DNA:ing anything as you put it just covering, anyways I was refering to this report [4] regarding freq. in Turkey. It seems to be around 13 %. The same report covers Central Iran, like Tehran and Isfahan this is the largest and 4:th largest city, and the freq. is 20% in Tehran (~12 million) and 18% in Isfahan. So how can you say it fades? Also you might assume that people would understand regarding the shading like for Pakistan and North India, but you might also assume that many people will not. So a map covering each country with proper borders and the average might be more clear. And I understand that diff peoples with diff types have similair gencodes but the original types of most of these having steamed from the Iranian Plateau (and surrounding areas) are found there.Cyrus111 (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Turkey has a minimal R1a over all nation its doesn't add up to 13%, please direct me to the study you have about Turkey? Cinnioglu did a big study on Turkey with 523 participants R1b showed up at 17% but R1a was 6.88%. Even Armenia itself has a similar trend of high R1b low R1a it extends into Gilan, then fades in central Iran where R1a becomes more frequent eventually becoming most Common in Khurasan. Take a look at the studies below, I have more in detailed subclades if you are interested.
Cinnioglu et al. 2004 - Turkey
R2 = 1 %
R1b = 17 %
R1a = 6.88%
Now regarding the population Khurasan its 10% of Iran population so 35% = 20% + 3.5%. In order for Iran to be 20% the frequency has to be 16.5% in every other region of Iran. 16.5% is possible up until Zagros but then the R1a diminishes quickly & becomes a typical Mideasetern frequency in Wetsern Iran 5% - 10% (The Wetern province = 30% of Iran population).
Take a look at these studies.
Wells et al. 2001 (Shiraz - Southcentral Iran)
R2 = 7.2,
R1a = 3.6
Regueiro et al. 2006 - (Gilan - Northwest Iran)
R2 = 3%,
R1b = 18%,
R1a1 = 6%
Wells et al. 2001 (Tehran)
R1a1 = 8%
Regueiro et al. 2006 - (Kerman - Southeast Iran)
R2-M124 = 3%,
R1b = 6%,
R1a = 16%
Wells et al. 2001 (Khurasan - East Iran)
R1a = 35%.
Regarding Phenotypes its a whole different subject & I don't see how genotype variation can contradict any Phenotype geographic classification so the genetic diversity or change in frequency should not discredit any classification! (look at Europe for Example genes vary West to East while Phenotype varies North to South!
Ok first of all is this correct? Iranians East 35%, Central ~20%, West ~5-10% cause this is on the infobox. And also you wrote first
East Iranians are about 35% R1a, but when you average all of Iran its a little bit under 20% R1a
but few lines further down:
In order for Iran to be 20% the frequency has to be 16.5% in every other region of Iran. 16.5% is possible up until Zagros but then the R1a diminishes quickly & becomes a typical Mideasetern frequency in Wetsern Iran 5% - 10% (The Wetern province = 30% of Iran population).
Also
Wells et al. 2001 (Tehran)
R1a1 = 8%
But Nasidze et al
r1a1 Tehran 20%
and this is a newer study from 2004 (why use older studies?)
also:
r1a1 Isfahan 18 % (nasidzes 2004 study)
Shiraz and surrounding areas is close to where the Persians first settled and it seems to be major J2 area as similair with kurds, Greeks, Italians this is also a fairly common mideastern freq. The question is is r1a1 Indo-european or J2? Like both J2 and r1a1 are dominant so called high caste brahmin markers. Also do you have the coverage on these K, R, R1, R1a, R1b, R2, I, J, J1, J2 for Iran, you can e-mail it or just continue here.
And one last thing how com Physical Anthropology and morphology is fairly homogenous in Iran despite gen variety (Irano-Afghan)? From what I can tell this is du to the Plateau. Cyrus111 (talk) 12:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
J2 should not be confused with R1a, Persian like Arab or Modern Turks (with all respect) are cultural/nationalistic terms that can't be easily translated into genes. However the Indo Europeans who settled what later became Persia we have to assume they were R1a who came from a heavilly populated R1a region (Afghanistan-North India or even Russia) whatever theory you believe still R1a is the marker. J2 was in Western Iran before Iran was Indo-European it spread from nearby mesopotamia so its normal.
J2 is a Syrid-Mesopotamian gene thats an agricultural marker centered in Syrian Euphrates valley & never has a frequency higher than 30% in any major region because they are farmers who lived with other groups, J2 spread East & West from the Euphrates vally, J2 in Europe is mainly an Anatolian-Greek lineage an off shoot of the original Mesopotamian J2, from Greece it spread into the Magna Grecia (south Italian Greek colonies). The Eastern farmers moved from the Euphrate into the Tigris then followed the Zagros ridge ending in Baluchistan & a northern route through fertile vallies that reached Northern India then branched into two groups one Northern into (North West China & a Southern group into the Punjab) this group also has a seperate subclade not related to the European one (except the cross invasions mainly in the Greek-Persian wars)
R1a is the Indo European gene (regardless of what theory you prescribe to the Indo European languages in South Asia came East to West in Iran, R1a is what carried it into Western Iran - last region in modern Iran to become Iranized-, While the Hittites-Armenia are connected to a Western branch that has more R1b. Thats why Armenia is very close to Iran geographically but a Non-Iranian language.
Phenotype is more related to Climate-Geography, but it can be upset by a sudden influx of new population of a very diff Phenotype. However, I am not surprised that the majority of the people living in the highlands from the Himalaya to Central Anatolia share a common phenotype, its normal. Its also good to keep in mind that the formation of the phenotype usually predates (linguistic, religious & racial identities that we know today). So even an invading R1b or R1a will still be somewhat similar to the locals via MTDNA.
I really prefer emails because I am working with a couple of colleagues on a genetic project & I use emails for getting updates. Not sure how to list my email without being targeted by spam so I will list this temp email, then when you email me I will give you my actual email porcyrus111@gmail.com . Cadenas2008 (talk) 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
R1a is one theory for Indo-european languages as well as J2 (and r2 according to the article) both these are suggested, please note that the genetics of Proto-Indo-Europeans are unknown... We know that Iran means land of the aryans and this is the language there. As far as we know these might have spread from East Iran to India and Russia they did not jumped over the plateau reaching there and Stephen Oppenheimer suggest East Iran as well as Pakistan and northern India, and Kivisild et al. "Given the geographic spread and STR diversities of sister clades R1 and R2, the latter of which is restricted to India, Pakistan, Iran, and southern central Asia (Afghanistan), it is possible that southern and western Asia were the source for R1 and R1a differentiation".
If you also see this video you`ll se the spreading of irrigation systems from Iran to all over the world very much akin to PIE culture also other Proto-Indo-Europan traits are very much akin with both ancient and modern Iran. From what I can tell the PIE folks must have been mixes of "J:s" and "R:s" - Sumerians/Mesopotamians/Iranians/Indians ( but anthropologist Deniker terms Iranians and Sumerians as one in contrast to for example Dr. wells who separates Indo-iranians and Mesopotamians). Your great explanation regarding the phenotypes and that they were similair to the locals even though r1b or r1a, this probably goes for many other genotypes. It must have been easier to Iranize or culturize if the invading force are alike. Also we have to assume that the ultimate origin of Iranian plateau types as well as Nordics in Northern contries have their origins among East Africans as many East africans having same morphology and the E1b1b or E3b gene. This could also be as a result from the Iranian plateau type migration to both Nordic contries during the bronze age and the corded and to East Africa during Persian empire times we know that Ethiopia was a part. It seems many other folks are not East African-horn of Africa origin but seem to be more central African having reached Europe via Iberia Spain. I`ll send you an email to "poorcyrus111@mail.com" and you can send me anything or we can continue here so the people who follow and find this intresting, can. Cyrus111 (talk) 08:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Send me an email at porcyrus111@gmail.com it means (for) cryus, not "poor"! I am familiar with the map you uploaded it was based on older world project (where most partcicipants are European). Also try not to mix all genes into one group, J2 & R1a are very different J2 is clearly Mesopotamian, while R1a is an Indo European marker (European, Afghan, Indian or East Iranian...I am not willing to say it came from a certain region or not & its a sensitive subject!).
West Indo European Armenian & Greek is not directly related to Iranian R1a, they became closer after the Persian-Greek wars, but Armenian remained very distinct & has its own set of genes (mainly R1b).Cadenas2008 (talk) 19:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note the age of r1a 15000 years and note the age of the ice age of Europe 20000 years - as well as not being habitable for thousands of years after the melting of the ice. Also note that Iranian Morphology and hence genetic mutation can not have been the result of the hot Indian climate (or hot Iraqi or levantine climate- J2) but had to be the result of a migration from east Iran (west Iran for J2), Afghanistan or northwest Pakistan (Iranian Plateau) at a much later date since morphology of both J2 and R1a are similair and coldadapted (unless the Iraqi and India regions were totally climatically diff than present day). So with comon sense we can exclude both Europe (due to Ice age) and India (except the extreme north- the mountanious regions whilst 70% of Iran and Afghanistan consist of mountains with severe winters and so on) as a source of Proto-Indo-europeans. See also Paleontology, geology and meteorology all these are factors. Also the spreading of languages and IE culture were made possible with the domestication of the horse, which must have been at a much earlier date than the 3000-BC proposed in south Russia in the article and there are no suggestions of the domestication of the horse in India, Pakistan or Afghanistan. In Lorestan western Iran there are cave paintings of people riding horses dating back to 15000-BC, how then can they leave this out and claim it was domesticated some 12000 years later? Note that most their theories is probably or possibly and so on and that undermining the country is an unsecret political agenda. I hope these factors I mentioned above will be reconsidered in any study since there is to much smoke not to be a fire. I´ll send you a G-mail any day now, w8 for it. Also here is a qoutation from user Zadeh from disc page of Iranian peoples, using some geneticist studies like regueiro et al and kvilsid at al maybe this can be of help for your project?
Iranian IE homeland is probable.........
Zadeh79 (talk) 21:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)R1 is an Indo-European Marker. It gave rise to R1a (West European), r1a1 (scythian), and R1b (Turkic/European) groups. (To postulate that R1a1 and R1 are very different bio-groups, indicates a lack of understanding of these types of studies.)
From: Kivilsid,2003 "Two tribal groups from southern India—the Chenchus and Koyas—were analyzed for variation in mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), the Y chromosome, and one autosomal locus and were compared with six caste groups from different parts of India, as well as with western and central Asians. In mtDNA phylogenetic analyses, the Chenchus and Koyas coalesce at Indian-specific branches of haplogroups M and N that cover populations of different social rank from all over the subcontinent. Coalescence times suggest early late Pleistocene settlement of southern Asia and suggest that there has not been total replacement of these settlers by later migrations. H, L, and R2 are the major Indian Y-chromosomal haplogroups that occur both in castes and in tribal populations and are rarely found outside the subcontinent. Haplogroup R1a, previously associated with the putative Indo-Aryan invasion, was found at its highest frequency in Punjab but also at a relatively high frequency (26%) in the Chenchu tribe. This finding, together with the higher R1a-associated short tandem repeat diversity in India and Iran compared with Europe and central Asia, suggests that southern and western Asia might be the source of this haplogroup. Haplotype frequencies of the MX1 locus of chromosome 21 distinguish Koyas and Chenchus, along with Indian caste groups, from European and eastern Asian populations. Taken together, these results show that Indian tribal and caste populations derive largely from the same genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians and have received limited gene flow from external regions since the Holocene. The phylogeography of the primal mtDNA and Y-chromosome founders suggests that these southern Asian Pleistocene coastal settlers from Africa would have provided the inocula for the subsequent differentiation of the distinctive eastern and western Eurasian gene pools."
From: M. Regueiro (2006) "From the disparate M198 frequencies observed for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a movement southward towards India where the lineage may have had an influence on the populations south of the Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece [27] and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically significant longitudinal correlation [2] ) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia, 6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) [24] suggests that population movement was southward towards India and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition, the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia."
So R1 , R1a, were likely already present in Iranian populations. R1a1 frequency in Ukraine, reflects emmigrating Iranian Scythian tribes.
This makes perfect sense, as the cold adapted Caucasoid group, Haplogroup R (evolving in central asia), may have migrated south during the LGM to the Iranian plateau and the surrounding area, where the land was habitable. At some later point, these R1 derived "Aryan" tribes scattered NW into the baltic (R1a or, less likely, as R1a1), and west into Europe (R1b via Turkey).
The large frequencies of certain haplogroups (R1a, R1b) in Europe do not mean as much as many would like to think. One has to understand that Europe and central asia were largely uninhabitable. High frequencies, without accompanied diversity, usually just suggests a founders effect. From an examination of the pooled diversity and geographic spread of sister clades, and the distribution pattern of R1 and R1a in Iran and it's surrounding area, Iran is a likely candidate as an IE homeland. Asides, from the Basques (Who are ironically, products of J derived Iranians @ 10,000 ybp), Europeans are a relatively recent group of people. This isn't to say paleolithic genes are not represented in modern day europeans, but it's safe to assume that 70-80% of europes genes are neolithic.
Cyrus I really don't know where to start you bring alot of points at once! However, Basques are mostly R1b (few are J). J is not an Iranian marker Greeks, Pheonicians, Jews & Near Eastern Muslims all carried J & settled Iberia.
J evolved in the Arabian plate (not the iranian Plateau) J2 in Mesopotamia and J1 on the Western ridge of Arabia (if not Ethiopia IJ). Iran could be the origin of R, I read a ton of genetic blogs & various opinions about but its all original research that needs more work I prefer to share it with you by emails, because this type of discussions usually offends other nationalistic sensitive people. I will save what you wrote, try to reply to it in email! (porcyrus111@gmail.com) Cadenas2008 (talk) 01:57, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This map shows the (major) distribution of R1b & the other one of R1a
Haplogroup R1b DistributionFile:R1a-map.JPGHaplogroup R1a Distribution
The maps clearly show a logical distribution, I am working on an R map which is proving to be much harder to put it together mainly because we know little about the R1 frequency between Cameroon 40% & Sudan 13% (the nations between are still a ?)
R Mutation history
K to R = South Asia, Central Asia (we can never be very sure, thats why I am refraining from posting nations
R to R1 = Most likely around the Caspian (its much better to use regions, instead of nations)
R1 to R1a = Caspian to Black Sea (then split East & West)
R1 to R1b = Wetsern Europe or Anatolia depending on what theory you favor.
So in place of origin for R1a its not the same as R & so on, otherwise we will just say they all originated in Africa! (if you accept the one common origin theory!).Cadenas2008 (talk) 22:54, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Great maps, great work, they are at least better, previous map for Finland was void now it got its "share" but Northern India is now getting a less share and central Iran is higher according to newer studies than for example for estonians and Czechs (40%), it seems you are to dependent on mainly Dr. Wells work see also other newer studies. But still this map is more accurate than b4. And also remember "ages of the mutations" and if the outlined geographic area was even habitable at the time, Central asia and so on was not habitable when occuring mutation took place so reconsider R in southern Caspian region where the land was habitable. Regarding the one common theory, study the natural habitat and animals and peoples living in Eurasia resp Africa... I think it might be more complex than a "theory" called common origin theory...Or this theory might be right...
I´ll present to you this video as well. [6]Cyrus111 (talk) 13:19, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When I say Caspian-Black Sea region its better, because that way it leaves open to debate (until more solid evidence is found). I myself can not say that it originated in Ukraine 100%! I am not sure how anybody will be sure, now Iran had a lot of tests done by anthropologists...Read more on Nasidze (spelling) & nationalistic issues (Alans & Ossteian nationalism vs Caucasian nationalism...etc), when nationalism is involved science takes the back seat.
Regarding India the Kashmiri pandits are a very small class when you make a percentage map you include all people. Northern India is generally in the 40s%. Iran frequency map is drawn assuming Iran total R1a is 20%, which I think is the max % of R1a (its not going to change by time either.....Iran had lots of studies (one of the most tested regions of the world), if the study is unbiased it will show the same pattern).
I tend to prefer regions not nations. R1a to R is atleast 10,000 years, while R is clearly central Asian R1a is more related to the region between the Caspian & Black Sea. (regardless of the Indo European theory, so for now I will change it to Black sea region, Caspain sea region. It doesn't serve any nationalist agendas (thats the point). Cadenas2008 (talk) 01:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well again the average 20 % is Wells work (which might be correct). about the change, I just read in one of these scientific papers that if humans are to use the genpool to the maximum benefit, all peoples need should mix, this seems to have great results (according to this paper), but of course if such thing is to take place then this is all ordained and perfectly planed... Regarding Nationalism, am I being nationalistic for 5-6 diff countries? If I were to be nationalistic for some country I would need to look no further that its history, not its genpool. Nationalistic agendas and nationalism are made "here and now" its easy, whats good vs whats bad... I agree on the Kashmiri Pandits but the same then goes for the sorbs, also a "small" group, if one goes (Kashmiri pandits) the other should as well. Also it has nothing to do with the nations per say these are locations, if then a nations happens to be there today where the "mutation" took place some 15000 years ago then this nation will have to meantion as the location, then this has nothing to do with that particular country... There was no state of Ukraine or Russia at those times but these are geographic locations today. How can R be Central Asian if its 15000 (read article) years old, was it habitable. And how can r1a1 be 36000 years old in India when its predecessor r1 and r is 26000 years old? We need to check up on this.
Iran had lots of studies (one of the most tested regions of the world), if the study is unbiased it will show the same pattern).
Well it doesn´t show the same results diff geneticist have come to diff conclusions this is why we have their work in qoutation in the article. For instance the article starts by saying that Czechs have some 40% of this, like indicating that this is a high number whilst further down according to kvilsid the % in Iranian populations is higher than those in Czechs when compared. Besides in the infobox I am using Wells work Cyrus111 (talk) 10:51, 24 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]
My friend what studies are you talking about? From 10 + studies only one study East of Iran Wells shows a 35% frequency. I usually avoid nationalistic talk, but you are heading that way & thats not my interest! Cadenas2008 (talk) 01:59, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your edits have a nationalistic pattern. Thats why I prefer keeping to regions, IMO its unethical to manipulate public article into nationalist Iranian propaganda.
I went out of my trying to cater to your needs, but you insist on viewing the world egentics from an Iranian POV. Place fo origin simply is a region. Zagros has a link for anybody who doesn't know where Zagros is. J2 is more common amongst Israelis but you don't see Israelis adding Israel next to Levant!Cadenas2008 (talk) 23:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cater my needs?... Anyways we are working on an article which we can reach a consensus on. I appreciate your work but where is the nationalistic pattern in the article? Userpage and so on have a diff story. I added the Black sea Caspian regions which you think will open for debate which I hope it will, If its in the regions you say (black sea caspian sea) then what do you think about these maps and flash maps? [7][8][9][10][11] best regards Cyrus111 (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My friend, read the sources Mesopotamia is part of Iran as well, as well as J2 have its propable origin there (Zagros mountains), then spreading out via Turkey to Europe (mostly mediterranean area with high freq in Italy) as farmers. Vast parts of Iraq (except extreme north) west of Zagros mountains are sandy deserts, - uninhabitable. Farming requires "farmable" soil etc...! Genes aside, antropologist also terms Iranians and Sumerians/Mesopotamians and Nordics/Cordeds as one [12][13]
Also note in Britannica it says:
More than half the population (in province Khuzestan) are Arabs who live in the plains; the rest are Bakhtyārīs and other Lurs (peoples of West Persia), with many Persians in the cities. Some of the Bakhtyārīs and Lurs are still nomads.
But However this is "language affinity" as the genetics of Indo-european and Semitic speaking peoples in this region (khuzestan) of Iran are still similair. [14]
Finally regarding the PIE people, I´am telling you they must have been mixes of J2:s and R:s, for instance the Tocharian mummies having clearly Caucasian features with convex noses etc, had genetic links from many parts of Asia, see the video by NG and Dr Wells himself, and they brought their civilization to China... According to another video called Tocharians - Civilization Bearers to the Chinese (I have the links) They were wearing Iranian clothes and many other things related to ancient and modern Iran, and as evident in their language [15]...What you sow is what you reap let this be a lesson for future generations... Cyrus111 (talk) 18:53, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I'm not familiar enough with the topic to comment on sources. I just periodically disambiguate the term morphology, and Irano-Afghan came up in one of my earlier sweeps. I have fixed another wikilink for the article, though. If a source is authoritative, it should be used, although for basic information I would probably stick to the early 20th century anthropologists instead of modern websites. J. Spencer (talk) 16:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Image source problem with Image:World handshake.jpg
Thanks for uploading Image:World handshake.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.
Hi Cyrus, I think you should help fix the R article (by clarifying the origin of R) & seperating it from the R1 article (by clarifying the origin of R1)
R is origin of R1 & R2, but we can't say R2 originated in the same region R originated in, because that will just mean every gene originated in Africa.
This is my opinion (its just an opinion, others favor a northern origin of R)
R = ~ Iranian plateau
R1 = ~ Central Asia
R1a = Central Asia ~ Black Sea
R1b = Anatolia ~ Western Europe
R2 = ~ Indian subcontinent
R1 (M173) the ancestor of R1a & R1b should have its own article, so we end this confusion. If you are interested I will make maps showing the migration of R & we can adjust it. Cadenas2008 (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know its very hard to let go of older great work (Coon, Lundman...etc), they had to work harder & do alot of theorizing. Sometimes they turn out to be right sometimes not. To be fair I consider their work still valid as a Phenotypic classification, but its not a genetic classification. Also Phenotypes are not related to Y-DNA as much as you would expect, because mtDNA can also change the Phenotype. Cadenas2008 (talk) 00:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Coon, Lundman & other Anthropologists are for my own personal reading, they are not valid for Genetics. Just as linguistic & traditional affiliation also translates into genetic affiliation -sometimes-.
Regarding the article, I been busy Cyrus! but I already told you if you want to split the R1 (Y-DNA) article I will help you with the map I just need to double check it.Cadenas2008 (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for uploading Image:Hellfire.jpg. You don't seem to have said where the image came from, who created it, or what the copyright status is. We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.
To add this information, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the information to the image's description. If you need help, post your question on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
please do not add your materials to the article again. The reason: in the talk page of the page Iran we mentioned that your page should not be added. Please respect those who have worked hard to make the article of Iran better. Moreover the article you have created is problematic in any respect you may wish to consider.--Xashaiar (talk) 17:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing.
Actually, you've exceeded your three reverts on the Irano-Afghan page. I suggestr you revert your last edit or I will consider reporting you and you may be blocked. --Folantin (talk) 10:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This page is being constantly deleted by some editors, see page history The article was started a while back and have been edited on by many users, recently there are some editors who delete the page and redirect it to another even though the valid template of:
For other uses of the term... is used. I was reported for undoing their vandalism and deleting of page, now I wish to make a similair notice, please respect the article as admins and notify unconstructive users. thanks Cyrus111 (talk) 11:40, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Ex, the created page we edited keeps getting del. and red. please use your admin powers to stop this and send 3RR warning or a blockade. Appreciated, :-) Cheers! Cyrus111 (talk) 09:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Im a Rollbacker, not an admin, which means i do not posess any ability to block any user. Based upon what i see i would say you have an edit conflict over multiple articles with User:Dbachmann. In order to resolve this i would suggest contacting him on his talk page and request his reasoning for redirecting/removing while also stating why you feel these articles should not be moved or redirected.
I would strongly advice against undoing edits multiple times as this would leads to violation of WP:3rr, which in turn could lead to a permanent block in case of multiple violations. In case the two of you can't solve this i would open a case at WP:DR, but this should be a "Last chance" solution. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs)10:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I did do some reasoning with this editor but he ended up writing:
this fellow is just a troll. 3RR blocks are too kind on him, since they seem to be implying that he is a Wikipedian in good standing who just reverted once too often. He should just be smacked with a block for adding nonsense. --dab(𒁳)11:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The fact is Irano-Afghan and Nordic Iranian etc is used by antrop. while the term Iranid is less prominent. I could not even find one sorce on the net reg. "Iranid", while Nor-Ir and Ir-Af sources is in plentysome.
There is absolutely no reason why wikipedia and its admins should not alow an article titled "Nordic-Iranian or Irano-Afghan" to be created the term is used by many scholars, scholars from harvard university for starters and American School of Classical Studies at Athens(1971). It seems there is bias and personal issues playing a role here by some editors, please contact "power admins" regarding this, also a prevention of this article would actually be strange and "unwikilike" thanx Cyrus111 (talk) 10:26, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Since i didn't join this case until, say, an hour ago i lack sufficient context to draw any fact based conclusion what the exact issue is and who, if anyone, is to blame. Since this is aparantly an edit conflict i would suggest giving a talk page question another try. Instead of writing "Stop deleting this article!" i would suggest writing a more plain question why he deemed it should remain redirected, along with your stance why this should not be so. Do not make any demands on what he should do, but simply ask for a "Why" first. If the responce is nothing more then a snapped back insult i would suggest opening a case at WP:WQA. In each and every case, avoid violating WP:3rr. Violating that policy is seen as edit warring and is frowned upon, especially when man is trying a dispute resolution. Excirial (Contact me,Contribs)11:18, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As for contacting wiki admins: The administrators noticeboard is located at WP:ANI. However, since this is a content dispute they will be unlikely be able to help you. The admin noticeboard should only be used in either blatant cases, or for reporting matters that truely need an administrators immediate attention. Since we have other area's to handle content disputes, these are generally referred to WP:DRExcirial (Contact me,Contribs)11:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for uploading File:Nor-Ir.jpg. You don't seem to have said where the image came from, who created it, or what the copyright status is. We require this information to verify that the image is legally usable on Wikipedia, and because most image licenses require giving credit to the image's creator.
To add this information, click on this link, then click "Edit this page" and add the information to the image's description. If you need help, post your question on Wikipedia:Media copyright questions.
For more information on using images, see the following pages:
Thanks for uploading File:Nor-Ir.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, then a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a restatement of that website's terms of use of its content, is usually sufficient information. However, if the copyright holder is different from the website's publisher, their copyright should also be acknowledged.
You do not become the author and copyright holder of images by others simply by taking them from websites or even by scanning them from books. False statements of source and copyright is considered vandalism, for which users can be blocked. Please correct any images you have uploaded with incorrect source or license information. If you have questions you can't find answers to, ask. Thanks. Infrogmation (talk) 18:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't cut and paste articles, and you did with Iranid race (under other titles). Rather, they should be moved. Cutting and pasting screws up the article history, and it's a real pain to splice it back together again. You've been here a while, so I'd hope you'd know that by now. If you have trouble moving a page, please contact me or another administrator and we can help you. kwami (talk) 22:11, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've also put all your images up for deletion since you have no credible copyright information. (You obviously did not create them yourself, as you claim.) Also, only one of them is being used, so there is no point to them. kwami (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Cyrus111. I notice that you are interested in Sufism. I have put forth a request on the Reward Board for assistance in bringing the Sufi Saints of South Asia article to at least B-class. All meaningful contributors will get barnstars. The article is in dire need of being developed. It is an important article in relation to the Islam in South Asia. Please help in developing the article. Regards--Shahab (talk) 06:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
![[5]](http://images.google.se/imgres?imgurl=http://www.relativegenetics.com/genomics/images/haploMaps/originals/J2_large_RG.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.humorous.eu/haplogroup_j2_y-dna_en.html&h=616&w=690&sz=95&hl=en&start=15&um=1&usg=__6VirosbY8qiGiHIx1BIzCsacOIU=&tbnid=LofpHBqBgdZdzM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dj2%2Bmap%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN){kind=link}
![[7]](http://www.biblemysteries.com/images/migration.jpg){kind=link}
![[8]](http://www.sanskrit-sanscrito.com.ar/images/mapa1ingl.jpg){kind=link}
![[9]](http://www.hjholm.de/SLRD-map.jpg){kind=link}
![[10]](http://www.hjholm.de/granim.gif){kind=link}
You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24-hour period. Additionally, users who perform several reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. When in dispute with another editor you should first try to discuss controversial changes to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. Should that prove unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection. Please stop the disruption, otherwise you may be blocked from editing.
