Hi! It seems that there is some misunderstanding about Template:South Slavic languages sidebar. I was separated the Torlak dialects and Našinski as a Transitional between Central and Eastern languages and dialects, but you erased it. Obviously you are agree with the assert that these dialects are transitional between Central and Eastern group, because you express this with a note, but you don't want to express this fact in the template as a separate section. At the same time you just erased my note about Banat Bulgarian alphabet, based on Gaj’s Latin alphabet. Do you have some disareemnet of principle? Maybe it is really some misunderstanding? Regards, --AKeckarov (talk) 13:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I changed it only because you are making the template too wide. You'll see I did the same thing with my first edits to the template. When the template is too wide (coupled with long like this one) it causes an inconvenience at the actual articles. Take a look here. The table is being compromised for the template. I used footnotes because if we create a different section for transition it doesn't express that Torlak is considered a dialect of Serbian (Central South Slavic). Also, then we have to create one for Western-Central of which Kajkavian is grouped in, even though Kajkavian is considered one of the three main dialects of Central South Slavic (along with Shtokavian and Chakavian). Either way we need to cut down on the width. I will try something now -tell me what you think.
With the Banat Bulgarian alphabet, I meant to add it later but I must have forgotten. Also, I think it would be a good idea to give a table of that alphabet in the Banat Bulgarian article so people actually know just how different the alphabet is from Gaj's. Regards, BalkanFever10:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK! Thank you about your last edits. Now the template looks better, than I did. The differences between Gaj’s Latin alphabet (actually, present Croatian) and Banat Bulgarian are minimal (there aren't Đ, đ in Banat Bulgarian, they write the accents in many cases etc.) and It is good idea to prepare a table of Banat Bulgarian version of Gaj’s Latin alphabet.--AKeckarov (talk) 15:37, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hy. I`ve noticed that you`ve chaged "Macedo-Romanian" to "Aromanian" in Karajan's article. I am well aware of the fact that "Macedo-Romanians" redirects to "Aromanians", but isn`t the first term the proper one. I mean, what about the Meglenites, aren`t they "Macedo-Romanians" too? Raborg (talk) 16:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, Meglenites are Megleno-Romanians. With the term, Macedo-Romanian, for people who don't check the links, Macedo-Romanian might be misread as MacedonianRomanian (scroll over). Also, the Aromanians are found in Thessaly and Epirus in Greece, Albania and Bulgaria, not just the region of Macedonia, so it isn't really the proper one. There are no Epiro-Romanians or anything so it just leads to confusion. And I'm pretty sure Macedo-Romanian was coined by Romanians, or Romanian Aromanians (and was meant only to refer to Aromanians), because the people living there don't self-identify as such, and the English language world generally uses "Aromanian" or groups Aromanians and Meglenites into "Vlachs" (as opposed to Romanians).
How do you know that Karajan was an "Aromanian" Vlach, and not an "Meglenite" Vlach? And don`t most of the "Aromanian" Vlachs call themselves "Ramani" rather than "Armani"? If yes, than calling "Aromanian" some people who don`t call themselves like that is erroneous, isn`t it, just like "Macedo-Romanian" vs. "Aromanian"? Btw, how exactly do they indetify there? Are you an... I don`t know how to ask it... Vlach/Aromanian/Macedo-Romanian/etc.? Raborg (talk) 21:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can tell you that I know many of them in the diaspora. Most of them identify with the nation that they come from - Greece, Republic of Macedonia, Albania etc. but not ethnically - as in "I am from Greece, but I am not Greek". However, they tell me the indigenous (non-diaspora) don't really espouse their "Vlach-ness". Most call themselves "Armãnji", and some call themselves "Rramanji" but they are the same people. "Aromanian" is a construction based on "Romanian", yes, but it would cause more confusion to use a construct like "Rromanian". Actually a more erroneous term is "Vlachs" (Slavic "Vlasi", Greek "Vlachoi") as it refers to Aromanians and regards Meglenites as Aromanians. So the Meglenites are subject to assimilation into to three groups: Greeks, Macedonians and Aromanians. Anyway, with Karajan, his grandfather was from Kozani, so it would be fair to assume he was Aromanian as opposed to Meglenite (see the second (ethnic) map in Vlachs). BalkanFever02:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex, thanks for the kind words on the sandbox article. I think it's just about ready to go, but I do want a Bulgarian to look over it before posting it. I will institute the review process over the next day or so, hopefully! I'll keep you informed on how it goes! Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 15:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Can I still edit my user space though? I am trying to make WP:MKD a functional WikiProject with things like this, so I would like to be able to create more subpages to test out the links. Intricate templates are hard :-D. BalkanFever02:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is virtually impossible to allow a blocked user to edit certain pages; the WP software doesn't allow for it. The only thing you could do would be request an unblock (add {{unblock|reason}} to this page, replacing "reason" with your reason for request), but I doubt that it would be granted. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, sorry, I wasn't online during today or I might have commented earlier. Actually, it's not so uncommon to grant early unblocks if users make a plausible commitment to stay away from the conflicts they were blocked over, if they have something else constructive to do. So, I personally would have had no objection to something like that in this case. It's a pity, as it's now a bit late - only one hour to go of the original block anyway. (If you're online, let me know and I'll unblock if you want to start right away.) Fut.Perf.☼18:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I'm not usually on line at that time period - I didn't realise how long I was revert-warring for. It doesn't really matter that you didn't see the comment, you're on holiday - enjoy it :-). Now back to WP:MKD... btw, it seems most of the members of the project are there to make sure nothing gets out of hand (although I don't blame you considering what happened last time). BalkanFever07:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво. Е-маилот го добив но како што рече не се чита. Пробав во encoding да менвам ама пак не се читаше. Ако можиш смени му го само фонтот и пак испрати го. :) --strich3D (talk) 19:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BalkanFever, That looks really good – with regard to the WP format, playing around with the frames should be OK, although using {{colbreak}} may be a better way of breaking up the frames... Putting the boxhead stuff in its own frame might be another way of doing it... Let me know if I can help :) Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 02:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex, I will set up the MKD WP so that there is an easy way to slot the boxhead and other content in. I'll play around with and let you know when it's ready :) Hopefully won't take too long!! Среќни Новогодишни и Божиќни празници! (Which I hope means Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, for Orthodox Christmas on Monday!) Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 12:33, 5 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex, The reformatting of the MKD WP is a little more fiddly than I thought it would be! Let me know when the Boxhead and Assessment Guidelines are ready, and I will insert frames into the main MKD WP page. No hurry! Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 06:47, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex, I took a look at the column-less version and... yeah... I don't know that the format works! I will try something else keeping the column format and will let you know how it goes! Should be tomorrow or Wednesday. Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 12:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! So I have figured out how to properly frame and layout the page and am ready to include your pages on the MKD WP. Let me know when you want me to go live with the pages, and let me know which pages you want on the WP :) Am I correct in assuming that this is the only page which will go on the main MKD WP page? Also, what heading do you want on the frame – "Assessment", "Article Assessment"? Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 07:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! A frame linking to the Assessment page is a good idea – do you want to create a page with an intro/description, the {{WPMKD}} template and a link, and I will include the frame on the WP page? (Or, I can draft the frame.) I will be online again in a few hours. Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 07:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! Gosh, it looks like I really went to town on the intro frame! Sorry about that! I had a couple of minor grammar edits and I re-jigged the advice for new editors. I have placed the link to the assessment page further down in the intro, to encourage editors to read the intro before clicking into the Assessment area. I also think that there should be a warning on the intro page (and in the Assessment page itself) to the effect that editors should carefully consider the article before adding the template to it, as there is potential for a lot of edit-warring as a result of the template being added to some articles!!
I have had a look through the pages you've done and I am very impressed – you've done an excellent job!! Let me know what you think of the intro page changes and hopefully we can go live soon! Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 12:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! Well, it's live! I have also added the Assessment capability to the Announcements page. I think the idea about putting a 'do not add' list of articles (like Alexander the Great and Tsar Samuil) is a good one, and perhaps a section can be added onto the assessment page warning about the dangers of starting an edit war. But, like you said, that can be done another day! A lot of hard work (99.99% by you!) went into this capability – you should be proud! Честитки! (Which I hope means "congratulations"!!) AWN AWN2 (talk) 13:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! Thanks again for the kind words and for correcting my Macedonian! The only reason I am MK-0 is because there is no MK-(-4)! ;) Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 06:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
[Replying here] What do you mean "it is based on the Greek word Skopia to give Skopianoi"? Is the self-identifying demonym for Skopje not Скопјани? A simple Google search would beg to differ. Regardless, calling a Macedonian or Peloponnesian an "Athenian" is not the same as calling him an "idiot" or "assfucker". Surely even you can see that. If you want, I'll call you a Hellene. I would even call you a Macedonian if you would stop spreading crap about misuse and offense and be able to call the other side Macedonians. Whatever possessed you to believe that what you choose to call me is of any consequence whatsoever? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You know very well what the word Скопјани is meant to refer to. And I doubt Greeks actually know the self-identifying term for people from the city. They constructed Skopianoi from the Greek word Skopia. I don't think Greeks are idiots, I merely think some Greeks are idiots if they get offended by "misuse of the name Macedonia" on the basis that it was chosen solely for the purpose of territorial and historical claims. Evlekis explained why such an idea is absurd. As for "assfucker" - it is a stronger slur than Skopjan, and I understand that. Let me try another comparison now, one term for you "Macedonians" is Pontians in the Republic of Macedonia - is that or is that not an ethnic slur? It is exactly the same as Skopjans. Anyway, I said I'd call you a Hellene because you brought up that Greeks is an exonym. BalkanFever10:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking about Скопјани in the sense of the inhabitants of the city of Skopje, not the way Greeks use the term. Is it or is it not a self-identifying term for a significant proportion of the Republic's population? And, if so, how can it possibly be on the same level as calling me an idiot? As for your other questions, no, I wouldn't consider "Pontians" an ethnic slur, given that so many Macedonians are in fact Pontians. Гркомани and Пушкари, on the other hand, are deliberatively offensive but nothing to weep over either. If they are indeed "exactly the same" as you say, I'd be more than happy for you to call me an Athenian or Pontian if you stopped feigning such mortal offence vis-à-vis Greeks' almost ubiquitous use of Skopjan. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is a self-identifying term for around one quarter of the population. But "Albanian" is also a self-identifying term for one quarter of the population. If one quarter of Greeks are idiots for the reasons above, then the terms are pretty similar. Again though, I don't thinks Greeks are idiots. Puškari I haven't heard, and Grkomani refers only to the Slavophones - but even that by your definition is not necessarily pejorative, because there is no calque/translation for "Slavophone Greek" - Egejci comes close, but that refers to the ones with an ethnic Macedonian consiousness, i.e. Rainbow, and various diaspora individuals. BalkanFever11:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The proportion of "idiots" is much higher than one quarter, I can assure you. Just go to Greece and find out for yourself. And I'm sure the Slavic languages are versatile enough to express a concept as simple as "Slavophone Greek". If not, try importing directly from the Greek, as in the case of "Macedonian". I think the lack of such a term stems more from a reluctance to accept the existence of such a group in the first place. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:57, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Then tell them to stop feigning mortal offense. And if that is your (weak) attempt at proving "Skopjan theft" for the day, go complain to the Romans, who spoke Latin, and the English, who speak Germanic. I think the presence of such a term stems from a desire for the existence of such a group - because everyone knows it's a sin to not be Greek. BalkanFever12:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Go tell them that for yourself. What happened to the sacrosanct right to self-determination? Or is it only the privilege of a select few? And who said anything about theft? I'm sure Macedonian existed in the Slavic languages for centuries before it had to be appropriated for a newly-conceived political project in the 1940s, to the detriment and exclusion of its original meaning. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The original meaning being "tall men" or "highlanders", in Greek, but "Macedonian" in the geographical sense by the time it passed into Slavonic. If Μακεδόνες is an exonym, then so is Macedonians, as the name was transmitted to all modern languages (yes, including yours) via the Greek. No offence, but I'll take Herodotus's word over yours. Cheers. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's what I meant. And words take on meaning different than the original all the time, so "Macedonian" to refer to the ethnic group is no more "detrimental" than "Macedonian" in the geogrpahical sense. BalkanFever12:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The crucial difference being, of course, that the circumstances under which "Macedonian" came to denote an ethnic group are not comparable to those of the earlier meanings. Macedonian came to take on a wider geographical meaning as the result of a natural process spanning several centuries, not a deliberate political act of the Cold War. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 13:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are sadly mistaken. You're believing Bulgarians just because it falls in line with your position of being the "real" Macedonians. Besides, all nationalist movements are political - Modern Greek nationalism was a tool to get rid of Ottoman rule. So was Bulgarian nationalism. And Serbian nationalism. And Macedonian nationalism. You're problem is, again, you think that the name was chosen to claim Greek history and territory. Let me remind you that that movement pre-dates the Greek Struggle for Macedonia and the Balkan Wars, so there was no Greek territory to claim. The Franks were Germanic, but the Germans don't get offended by the word "French". The Belgui were Celts, but the Scottish don't get offended by the word "Belgians". The Bulgars were Turkic, but the Turks don't get offended by "Bulgarians". Let me be clear here:
Anyone who feigns offense from the self-identification of another group is an idiot.
Anyone who is actually offended by the self-identification of another group is a retard.
Your personal opinion is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, as is mine. I am simply arguing the facts, and the evidence does not support your claim that the "movement pre-dates the Greek Struggle for Macedonia and the Balkan Wars". If you mean VMORO, its unorigins are far from uncontroversial. Most non-"Macedonist" observers would agree that it was an organisation of Bulgarian activists who used Macedonia in a geographical sense within the framework of a Greater Bulgaria. At least that's how all those who actually fought them, the Greeks, Serbs and Turks, perceived them. The fact that they "considered Macedonia an indivisible territory and all of its inhabitants Macedonians, no matter their religion or ethnicity" speaks volumes about what they thought Macedonian meant. Not an ethnic term, that's for sure. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:34, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was the basis for later Macedonian nationalism, which did use Macedonian as an ethnic term. Not to steal history or territory, but to create an independent country for the ethnic Macedonians. So technically, even if VMRO weren't ethnic Macedonians, it doesn't matter, because they provided the foundation for ethnic Macedonian nationalism - and don't make the error of confusing that with Macedonism. BalkanFever09:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The ultimate goal of "ethnic Macedonian nationalism" has always been a United Macedonia, based on the idea that there is an unbroken line of continuity between the ancient Macedonians and the modern Slavic ethnic group and that Macedonia has always been a single ethnic, geographical and historical region (to quote mk.wikipedia.org) that was unfairly "divided" in 1913 by its "enemies". The very notion of a "Macedonian" ethnicity implies that anyone not of that ethnicity is a foreign element, an "invader", an "occupier" who must be expelled in order for Macedonia to be free. After all, what right do the Greeks have to be in Macedonia if they're not "Macedonian"? In that sense, the nationalist project is incomplete, despite the independence of the fYRoM. The fact that realpolitik has dictated the official abandonment of irredentism by the government in Skopje has not changed this. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And what is the ultimate goal of Modern Greek nationalism I wonder? It is a recreation of the Byzantine Empire. Realpolitik dictates that that will never happen either. Nationalism has no bounds, no matter which group it is. And if the ethnic Macedonian nationalism was based on continuity with the Ancient Macedonians, then a United Macedonia would be Alexander the Great's empire, not a United region of Macedonia. Your idea of a Macedonian ethnicity is amusing, It also seems quite similar to the reality of the Greek ethnicity. Except instead of expulsion in your Macedonian fantasy, Greeks just violently Hellenise everyone. BalkanFever11:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Spare me the rhetoric about those evil Greeks and answer the following question, if you please. When you call yourself a "Macedonian" and me a "Greek" (or "Athenian"/"Pontian"/"Grkoman"/"idiot" or whatever else), does that not have the effect of implying that Macedonia is rightfully yours and that I am a foreign body (since I belong in "Greece", not "Macedonia")? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. It means you're not a Macedonian (in the sense that I'm using it). It has nothing to do with Macedonia. And you should spare me the rhetoric about Macedonism and United Macedonia. BalkanFever11:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You still don't get it, do you? If I say I'm Macedonian and you're Greek, it means exactly that - you're not Macedonian (by the definition of my usage). There is no implication of a country, since I am using terms describing ethnic groups, and ethnic groups do not own countries. BalkanFever12:18, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, but there is. In practice, such an abstract distinction is rarely made by your compatriots. And I certainly "get it" very well, don't worry about that; I am simply disputing your semantics. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are seriously paranoid about this whole United Macedonia thing aren't you. Let me explain this:
Macedonians = ethnic Macedonians OR Macedonians = people from/in Macedonia
No, it has nothing to do with my Greek POV. It has to do with the respect of rules and of the consensus we reach in this encyclopedia. User:Kirev could do the research I did for him, and find out how international organizations use the term "FYROM".
And it was neither my intention to "penalize" Kirev. After all, I mentioned with my own initiative that my warning occurred at the same time with the 4th revert. I knew that and I knew that what would happen would be just a warning. Kirev should not be punished, but he should learn that he cannot revert unilaterally without discussing first.
What annoyed me was a desperate effort by you and Jdej to deny an undeniable violation of rules by Kirev. And this is POV: POV is to interprete the 3R contra verbum (and this is not wise when you speak with a jurist like me who tends to focus on terms!), and then to insist on the assertion that the revers were 3 and not 4! A wrong way to defend somebody. Maybe you should wonder if it was your POV that made you interprete the 3R rule the way it was convenient to you, to omit that each edit was accompanied with a revert (although Kirev himself courageously admitted that he was reverting), and to amount the reverts to 3 while they were 4.
And all this, when you could effectively defend your friend basing your argumentation on what I myself admitted, that the 4th revert took place simultaneously with my warning, and that there was no further revert.
And I tell you all these not in order to lecture you or to scorn you. I have no interest in doing that. I do that for one reason: Because you accused me for POV-pushing, and in order to stress one thing: Before accusing others as POV-pushers, try first yourself to fight against your own POV. Unfortunately, the way you chose to defend Kirev and fight against my arguments does not indicate such a wise stance.
I did not reduce anything. Do you understand the term "more than 3"? It means any number above 3, not inclusive of 3. 4 is included in "more than 3" by definition. Don't try to teach me English. Not making "more than 3" reverts means making 3 or less reverts. There was no desperate effort to deny anything - I was calling it as I saw it. If you are interested in undermining my wisdom, focus on the term "no personal attacks". Also, I didn't accuse you of POV pushing, I "accused" you of attacking him because of your POV (thereby retorting your reason for this post). Either way, if you have anything informative to say, go ahead. If you're going to repeat what you said before, there's really no point. BalkanFever21:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Your suggestions are very helpful and I'll use them for the new version of the laguage map I'm working on. I was thinking to merge Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian into Serbo-Croatian, but I don't know what reactions will I receive from Croatians or Bosnians.
Andrei nacu (talk) 22:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what to say. For me, Serbian and Croatian are identical, excepting the Cyrillic alphabet being used by most Serbs. I think I'll color them as one but write Croatian for the language in Croatia, Bosnian for Bosnia and Serbian for Serbia and for Montenegro. One more thing, representing Macedonian and Bulgarian languages in Greek Macedonia and Thrace is a very sensitive matter as the two languages (and ethnicities) are not widely accepted to exist by the Greek authorities. The last language census conducted by the Greeks was in 1951, so we don't know for sure the exact area of distribution of Bulgarian and Macedonian or the number of speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrei nacu (talk • contribs) 23:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Does a youtube video of him singing in Aromanian constitute a reliable source? Anybody who isn't Aromanian singing in Aromanian isn't too common. BalkanFever05:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, even though some of the information that can be found on YouTube can be helpful, it, however, does not qualify as a reliable source. The main reason would be that it would be hard to prove whether or not someone has a copyright to the specific video and Wikipedia might end up using it without proper consent.
Your example that it would be unlikely to hear a non-Aromanian singing in Aromanian might very well be true. However, that is considered original research because you're making an assumption based on evidence presented to you. Rather than conducting our own research, Wikipedia exists to provide information that can be readily found from another source and verified. In other words, in order for you to make a stetement declaring Proeski an Aromanian, you need to find a source that specifically says Proeski is of Aromanian origin or something to that effect that cannot be misconstrued. Most English speaking people reading his article and clicking on the YouTube link would never understand the difference between Macedonian and Aromanian anyways, right? So we need to have a source they can read for themselves that confirms that information. And, as far as what is considered a reliable source, Wikipedia:Verifiability states:
In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.
I'm leaving you this note to inform that you are placed on supervised editing for two months: you may be banned by any administrator for good cause from any article, talk page, or topic which you disrupt by editing in violation of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.
Hello BalkanFever, we may need to talk about this again – please see the comment I left on Moreschi's talk [1]. Maybe he was a bit quick here. Fut.Perf.☼18:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fut.Perf. is right. Also, look at my comments on the talk page for the article. While I was editing, Jingiby seems to have made intermediate edits, and no "edit conflict" came up. It was only when I viewed the history that I saw what was going on. In retrospect, I should have gone to RFPP but it didn't occur to me. BalkanFever01:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. "F***ing up the article" was referring to my edit when I realised I duplicated a paragraph. Again, I didn't realise Jingiby already reverted that edit. BalkanFever01:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, I wasn't fully aware of the situation. I just saw the arbcom page and the article history.... damn, I had no idea about that. After Jingiby's "OK I agree!" edit, I went offline, so this entire situation surprised me. BalkanFever01:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I can't understand how you "just" saw the ArbCom page, since you were a party. And I'll be the bad guy again, but whoever assumes good faith for BalkanFever reverts, should first have a look at this [2]--Avg01:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the log of blocks and bans. And maybe you should look at the context, when Makedonia left Wiki because Bulgarian editors were propagating that Makedonsko Devojče was a Bulgarian song, which was fucking annoying. Not to mention that that was on 8 November, 2007, before the Arb.Com. case. But I guess you forgot to leave that out, huh? Take a look at this: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Macedonia#Statement_by_Fut.Perf.. And I quote: "and most Macedonian editors are immobilized to such a degree they can hardly get an edit through without having it reverted immediately". BalkanFever02:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well you know, it probably is, in the 2-3 villages of the Slavomacedonians. That means that less than 1/1000th of the population of Greek Macedonia are aware of it.--Avg02:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2-3 villages that aren't afraid of how your government treats the devil's spawn, wow that must be a new record. I'm sure those Greeks who magically speak the Macedonian language have never heard of the song either. Whatever keeps you happy. BalkanFever02:46, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes it's beneficiary for someone to live in a lie, when he can't face the truth. Now when a whole nation lives in a lie, it becomes somewhat more serious. Keep dreaming that there is a Slav minority in Greek Macedonia struggling under the bad nationalist Greeks, waiting to be liberated. Dreams are free after all. --Avg02:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can keep dreaming that there is a group of ethnic Greeks that randomly speak a language identical to the language of those that must not be named. I never suggested they are waiting to be liberated - what's serious is a whole nation living in paranoia. BalkanFever02:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Every discussion I have with you people ends up with your side accusing me of this or this. Or the "your self-identification (which is none of my business) offends me" crap. Or the defence of ethnic slurs on the basis that it is OK in your country. It's always you being attacked. We should feel sorry for you. I refuse to have fruitless discussion with POV-pushers like you. Don't bother replying. BalkanFever03:53, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Since when is it identical? People in Florina hardly speak standard "Macedonian". You'll argue it's because the evil Greeks didn't let them learn it in school, forcibly teaching them a useless foreign language instead, but the fact remains. As for Makedonsko Devojče, the word Macedonian, even in Slavic, doesn't have to mean this. The Bulgarians use it, and so do the Greek Slavophones. You're not claiming a monopoly, remember? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 03:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm not. But in this case, it does. BTW, most Bulgarians use it to refer to their "ethnopolitically confused brothers". And I never said was identical to the literary language. People in Ohrid and Tetovo speak the same language as those in Florina - yet not the standard. BalkanFever
There is nothing in the lyrics that suggests to me it is exclusively this kind of "Macedonian". And people in Strumica speak the same language as those across the border; does that make them Bulgarians? In reality, there is a South Slavic dialect continuum stretching from the northern extremities of Greece all the way to the southern extremities of Austria; the ethnic self-identifications of the speakers are a political and historical matter, not a linguistic one. Do you see my point now? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 04:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Dialect continuum. But lets say those Slavophones were to say "We speak X-ian" (X being an unambiguous term) i.e. not Macedonian or Bulgarian, but a similar language. They would still be in the same position as they are now: "We are Greeks, we just speak X-ian because we can". But the fact is that the name for their language in their language is "makedonski" or "balgarski", depending where they are. They just say "dopia" in Greek because one, Makedoniki is ambiguous and controversial, and two, government paranoia that the land will be taken. There mere fact that their mother tongue is not Greek suggests non-Hellenic origins. There is nothing in the lyrics of the song that suggests it's Bulgarian in any way, do you see my point? BalkanFever04:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But they don't call it "makedonski" in their language (apart from the Rainbow Party, that is). They call it "nashenski" or even "dopski". You're forgetting that Macedonism was a Yugoslav phenomenon; the Slavophones of Greece were not and are not part of that project. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're forgetting that Macedonism and the national awakening of Macedonians are two different things. Why is it so bad for these people to be Macedonians and not Macedonians while they are still Macedonians? They can still be patriots for their country (Greece) without being ethnic Greeks (Ellines). They are closer (culturally and linguistically) to their northern neighbours, but not being a Hellene is considered the same as being a Hellenophobe. Example: the term Slavomacedonian was accepted by the community, because it reflected their (ethnic and linguistic, not expansionist) links to their neighbours. But it soon became offensive because of the way that the ethnic Greeks used it, as if these people were of a lower class for not being the same. BalkanFever05:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's the part I honestly don't understand. If they themselves don't feel "the same", why would they be offended by Greeks' use of a term intended to differentiate them from the other Macedonians? And if they are patriots for their country, does not make them Greek anyway? As I have mentioned before, the distinction between ethnicity and nationality is a blurry one for Greeks. In most people's eyes, if you were born and raised in Greece, speak Greek and love Greece, you are Greek, full stop. At the moment, it seems the Greeks are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Calling them Slavomacedonians is offensive because it implies they are "not the same", and calling them Greeks is offensive because it denies their right not to be Greek. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:02, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"if you were born and raised in Greece, speak Greek and love Greece, you are Greek, full stop". I completely agree, but in most people's eyes, identifying like those across the border (in one aspect), and those with which they live (in the aspects you mentioned) are considered mutually exclusive. They got offended, as is explained in the stub article, because Greeks used it not just to simply differentiate them (when differentiation is needed), but in a way that implied being different is bad. Essentially, no-one could grasp that one can be Slavomacedonian AND Greek. BalkanFever07:24, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I personally don't see a problem with being both; my problem is with the implication that the Slavomacedonians are the Macedonians, when in fact they are only a minority thereof. As for your point that the Greeks use the term in a way that implies being different is bad, I'm sure calling yourself "Greek" across the border wouldn't make you very popular either - xenophobia may well be a Greek word but it is certainly not a Greek monopoly - but that's no reason to ditch the name. By the way, the Greek media also use Slavomacedonian rather than Skopjan when there is a need to distinguish between the Republic's ethnic Slavs and Albanians, i.e. it is simply factual, not pejorative. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But who are the Macedonians? AFAIK, you say it's them, undisambiguated. For a compromise to be reached, both uses of the term must be disambiguated. "Macedonia" will only be the region in Greece to Greeks, and "Macedonia" will only be the country to ethnic Macedonians, but to the rest it should mean the wider region, and everything else must have a qualifier. The reason I disagree with a disambiguation for the name of the Republic is because the region in Greece is not being disambiguated - monopolisation of the name Macedonia. BalkanFever09:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're quite right; this is precisely about the nomenclature the rest of the world will be using. It is not a strictly bilateral dispute as Skopje has been arguing, as there is simply no realistic prospect that either side will alter its internal use of the term. I'm not sure I understand your point about mutual disambiguation, though. Is Macedonia (Greece) not clear enough? As a Greek region, Macedonia is inherently disambiguated as it can only be conceived of as part of a larger entity. And besides, Macedonia is not a single political unit, so it is not quite comparable to the Republic, which lost that inherent disambiguation when it declared independence from Yugoslavia. Remember, Greece never really had an issue with the idea of a "Macedonia" within Yugoslavia; it was when the latter disappeared, and the two Macedonias therefore lost their hitherto equal status, that the problem arose. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 16:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if one says "I went to Macedonia" and they mean the one in Greece then they have to disambiguate. Because it's not obvious, and I'm pretty sure the Anglophone world assumes the country anyway. Not that it should mean the country though - "I went to (prefix)Macedonia" would be correct. But what I honestly don't understand is why "Republic of" is not enough disambiguation - there has only ever been one republic called Macedonia, but there have been many regions called Macedonia throughout history. As I have stated before, the irredentism is not really to do with the name, its more based on the ethnic Macedonians (however many there are) in the wider region: like how Hungarian irredentists want Vojvodina and Transylvania, or how Croatian, Serbian and Bosnian irredentists want their respective Krajinas. In regards to people - I think it would be very hard to convince them to self-identify differently - but "ethnic Macedonian" seems not to confuse too many people, and "(prefix)Macedonian" looks like it will be used only as a demonym for people in/from the country. What I am actually most opposed to is Greeks identifying simply as "Macedonians", with ethnic Macedonians using a prefix like "Slavo-". BalkanFever09:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But one would only say "I went to Macedonia" and mean the Greek region if one were Greek, or travelling only within Greece. That's what I meant by inherent disambiguation. An official name change is not required because it always has to be disambiguated anyway (outside Greece). The Republic on the other hand, being a sovereign state, will always trump the subnational entity. Therefore, "I went to Macedonia" ends up having only one meaning in non-Greeks' minds. That's when the Greeks get fired up and say "hang on, we have a Macedonia too and it's actually older and bigger than that one". As for "the Republic of", it is such a common component of official country names that it inevitably implies ownership over the territory mentioned. Just like the Republic of Slovenia encompasses all of Slovenia, the Republic of Bulgaria covers all of Bulgaria, etc., so too the "Republic of Macedonia" can easily be confused with Macedonia as a whole. Greeks can't help but think that this is perfectly intentional, given the volatile history of the Balkans. And Skopje's reluctance to accept any form of disambiguation simply engenders further suspicion. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But there are situations when the country does not cover the entire region - United States of America, Republic of Mongolia (that's not the official name though), Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.....Of course one could confuse these, but then we should correct them. I'm quite happy for Greeks to, instead of getting fired up, calmly inform the non-Greeks that there is another Macedonia, part of the larger region also called Macedonia, instead of screwing over their neighbours. BalkanFever10:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And how many people know that there is a Mongolia outside Mongolia, or a Luxembourg outside Luxembourg? That's exactly my point. As for America, I've met plenty of Latin Americans who despise the fact that the name has been usurped by the hated gringos, so the Greeks are definitely not alone in that regard. But in the case of Macedonia, it's not just the name that's at stake. The use of the name has also tended to entail a concomitant claim to Macedonia's heritage and the denial of Greece's historical presence there. Alexander the Great Airport is the most glaring recent example. Talk about screwing over your neighbours; the fact that he never set foot anywhere near Skopje is conveniently ignored, and the decision justified with mystical references to a "shared heritage" of the wider region. Which begs the question, how wide do you want to stretch that region? And why aren't you guys also proud of Socrates and Plato? They were from the "wider region" too, after all. Still, I lay the blame for this conundrum squarely on Alexander himself; if it weren't for him, an unrelated Slavic people would most likely never have chosen the name of his glorious kingdom to begin with, and Macedonia would have remained as obscure as any other neighbouring state whose name isn't good enough for you. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FP must be referring to «θα φας ξύλο» (literally "you'll eat wood", i.e. "you'll cop a hiding"), a common threat issued by Greek parents to unruly youngsters. I'm not sure it lies within the Balkan sprachbund, however. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. It is a sort summary about Aromanians in different countries and later generally about minor nations. The article critisizes Greece's approach towards minorities. It mentions soccer player Hagi and the fcat that he recognised his Aromanian descent and that Karajan while beeing of Aromanian origin affirmed he was a Hellenic nobleman. Generally the article does not contain any sensational new information and probably it is available in German as well. --Koppany (talk) 15:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In Hungary there were Aromanians, and in 18-19th century they played an important role in commerce. Interestingly, most of them were called Greeks, eg. the Sina family who obtained even Hungarian noble ranks, or the less rich Aromanians were called Cincars. Only very few Aromanians identified tehmselves as Romanians like Gozsdu/Gojdu and Mocsonyi/Mocioni families. Today there is no Aromanian community in Hungary, but maybe some individual Aromanians live in the country. Aromanians are not among the 12 recognized ethnic minorities.--Koppany (talk) 16:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво BalkanFever, како си? Извини што вака те прашувам, но сакав да знам дали имаш нешто влашко? Јас сум 1/4 битолски Влав. Сакав да те замолам ако сакаш да ја погледнеш статијата Македонци, да кажеш твое мислење, и ако сакаш заеднички да напраиме убава статија за Власите на македонската википедија. Поздрав. --Revizionist (talk) 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing this out. In fact, I have been following the discussion, and the modifications to the main page as well. Things are moving apace. If I have something to contribute, I will. In the meantime, hammering out the Thessaloniki lead in a manner acceptable to all was not easy, and I was dismayed to see it undone. Jd2718 (talk) 01:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey there BalkanFever. I just wanted to ask you whether US English is more appropriate than International English in articles relating to Macedonia? As I tend to use the latter in Macedonia-related articles. Köbra8507:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ENGVAR states that it doesn't matter, as long as you're consistent. As you use Firefox, you can easily get a spell-check add-on for your preferred variety (I use Australian), so just go by what is easier for you. Remember to make the entire article consistent though :). BalkanFever07:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know what Frightner has said? Do you have an idea of all the insults we've got from him? That's what I meant and I'm pretty sure Frightner is well aware about this. Since you're obviously not - please, refrain from such notions as it sounds a little unfair at the least. Oh, and let's not forget you've not been such a good boy recently edit-warring on United Macedonia and Vergina sun which are articles well into the Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia --LaveolT13:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify this, the "Köbra" account obviously is Frightner, he's admitted it himself. As long as people think he's truly making a fresh start and behaving better, I'm personally inclined to tolerate him, but that's just me. Fut.Perf.☼07:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello BalkanFever and thank you for your query. As you can see on my user page I'm very busy at this time, but will get back to you with an elaborate answer as soon as my life gets back to normal. Best regards, Húsönd23:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To add a touch of variety to these reversions :-), I've sided with Kekrops on one of them [5]. In this case, I think the "disambiguation" argument does have some merit. Since not all of the entries in the list are nation states – at least one, "Cameria, is actually a part of Greece – automatic disambiguation to the nation state reading cannot be assumed. This is where "Republic of..." really does make a bit of sense. Just my 2c. Fut.Perf.☼12:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't entirely joking. MOSMAC offers no advice on how to treat countries that do not recognise the constitutional name, other than Greece of course. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You know my opinion: the whole idea that we should treat "countries", or any other entities for that matter, differently according to what their own naming preferences are (for a different entity), is utterly ridiculous, and there never really was a good reason to make such a rule for Greece in the first place. Fut.Perf.☼12:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to stop racism. Did you even read what I said on his (and Fut. Perf.'s) talk page? You, on the other hand, constantly attack users that don't share your POV. This, all the while defending a "patriot". BalkanFever03:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did. You quietly told him in Slavic to avoid racist terms like "Tatars" and "sub-saharan", but here, in English, you're trying to defend him by denying that they are racist or imply inferiority, instead accusing me of racism for pointing out who the targets of his racist remarks were. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 04:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am defending him because all you are interested in doing is baiting him to see if he makes more racist remarks. One more Skop down, right? BalkanFever10:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво БалканФевер, да те прашам дали имаш проблеми околу моите статии на англиски, и ако имаш извини ама што да се прави со тие што ги менуваат тие статии како на пример мојата за Абецедар и Радиовце. Комплетно се изменети. Дали некако може да се заклучат? и извини ако имаш проблеми создадени од мене. Поздрав--MacedonianBoy (talk) 22:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ја видов статијата Абецедар, И немав голем проблем, ама проблемот на Википедија (и во вистинскиот свет) е "дали имаше Македонски јазик пред Социјалистичка Република Македонија?". Знам што ти мислиш/знаеш и знам што повеќето од Бугарија и неколку од Грција мислат/знаат. Моето мислење немам време или мотивација да го опишувам. Тоа што се знае за Абецедарот е дека беше пишувано во говорот на југозападна Македонија (или западна Егејска Македонија во тоа време). Дали "српски", "бугарски", "македонски" или "словенски", многу не се знае. За Радиовце, која само сега ја имам видено, не сакам да те навредам, ама беше малце како туристичка брошура. Бидејќи ти си од таму, сакаш да кажиш на други за твојот град, ама читачите за неколку од тие информации можат да си гледат на други сајтови, не тука. Гледај ги другите статии за градови во Македонија ако сакаш. Мислам дека требам да те директирам на страницата WP:OWN, што вели дека иако имаш направена статија, не е твоја. Сите корисници смеејат да уредуват статии, само не ако ги вандализираат или си имат борба за неколку информации. За "проблемите", не бери гајле, корисниците кои не ме сакат не ме сакале неколку време пред да доаѓаш ти. Навистина, кур ме боли што мислат :D. BalkanFever07:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Види вака, за Радиовце од историска гледна точка многу малку податоци можат да се најдат. Знам дека е ко брошура ама тоа е нема други извори за податоци... поздрав--MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ама за статија да биди добра, не мора да биди долга. Ако нема многу информации, што ке праиш? Стави линк на официалиот сајт (и можеби еден туристички сајт) и тоа е - информативна статија. И да знаеш, ако никој не ја менува статијата сега, ке биди изменета во неколку дена/недели - од било кој мисли дека статијата не изгледа баш добра за енциклопедија (не е ништо против тебе, само така е овој проект). Поздрав BalkanFever10:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ne ne go zemam toa zdravo za gotovo, koj misli deka ne e ok toa e neka si menuva. A inaku sakam da te pra[am dali ima statija na Makedonski za makedonskoto malcinstvo vo Grcija i za brojkata na Makedonci koi \iveat vo Grcija? Pred nekoj den od Vino\ito mi dozvolija da go koristam nivniot sajt no i mi predlo\ija da napi[am ne[to za makedonskoto malcinstvo tamu i popisot sproveden tamu. Ako nema bi sakal da ja napravam ako ne e toa problem za nekoi. Poz --MacedonianBoy (talk) 11:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Minorities in Greece#Christian Orthodox Slavophones ima malce ama ne se navikani "Makedonci", for obvious reasons. Ova tema bila diskusirana mnooogu pati - i do denes istoto e - nema Makedonci vo Grcija, ili ima 962 (vidi ovaa strana). Ako sakas, napravi, ama Grcite nema da ti dozvolat - i trebas mnogu izbori (WP:RS) koi vikat istoto. Da znaes, kje ti treba izbori od akademci koi nemat "agenda" - znaci od Zapadna Evropa. Ne mozi samo od Vinozito - ne znam oti - ama ne mozi. Ajde sega da zborime vo angliski, da ne mislat deka nie si imame agenda ;-) BalkanFever11:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I know the that on English it will be deleted and I do not want to write about it on English. I want to write about it on Macedonian it will be more secure for me and for the article. I will try to find some statements from scientists and ethologists but it is little bit difficult. Thanks, regards...--MacedonianBoy (talk) 12:07, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fala za dobredojdeto. Jas sum megju raboti, imam malku slobodno vreme, pa pocnav da ureduvam 2-3 strani vo Makedonskata wikipedija i recnik. Ja vidov diskusijata za Makedonija i resiv da pisam mekolku argumenti. Poveli vo Makedonskiot wikirecnik. Jas ke napravam edna sablon strana (pocnav so prednata strana i zborot zanimanje) i kje pocnam da go ubacuvam zborovi spored sablonot. Ako imas nekoi idei za podobruvanje na sablon stranata na zanimanje, pisi mi. Mislev da ubacam i dijalekti. Bi bilo fino da se ima i literaturniot zbor i zborot vo razlicni dijalekti. Pozdrav Toci 12.20, 16 February 2008 (CET) —Preceding comment was added at 11:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс! Како си? Just wondering if I could get some help with some Macedonian. Would the translation of Federation of Jewish Communities of Yugoslavia in Macedonian be Савез Јеврејских општина Југославије? Благодарам, AWN (aka MK-0) AWN2 (talk) 03:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво и благодарам Алекс! Thanks for your help on that, but I think I found the "official" Yugoslav translation: Сојуз на еврејската општна на Југославија (http://www.jewish.org.mk/Demograf/Demograf.htm). You are right though, the text I included was based on Serbian title :-) Thanks again, MK-(-1) :-) AWN2 (talk) 05:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. Yes, I am a native speaker. I suppose the names are spelled with Z instead of Ç because the symbol Ç isn't really native to English. They replace it with the closest thing they have, which is usually a Z. There is probably also some influence of Spanish, where many of these names are indeed spelled with Z. Regards. FilipeS (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It says that someone named Stojan Trencevski had a document proving that her father represented the aromanians in the assembly of Skopje , and that people in macedonia have no doubt that Mother Tersea was albanian but they were also sure that her father wasn't , but that he was Aromanian . Anyway that is all it says about her father But it also says that the argument : "The surname Bojaxhi in albanian means "painter" , so he must be albanian" , doesn't "work" because the albanians borrowed "Bojaxhi" from turkish and so did the aromanians , so he could be aromanian aswell . But anyway , it stops with this and it doesn't really conclude if he was aromanian or not --Cradel12:27, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was a somewhat spoof comment on how can "fictional" memories, a walk in the the "land of Oz", can forge a social phenomenon. --LittleTinMan (talk) 03:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC) (Plus, that movie, more than half a century later, is still wacky :P)[reply]
Здраво Алекс! Како си? "Shalom" does indeed mean hello/goodbye/peace, depending on the context! It is the general-purpose salutation amongst Israelis, and to some extent, Jews!
With regard to the Macedonian Premier Leagues, I think that's a good idea. I was initially going to create the basketball league page as Macedonian Premier League (basketball), but since the football/soccer article was not called "Macedonian Premier League", I thought I might as well use it ;-)
PS The basketball and football league templates (FIBA, UEFA) will also have to be changed, although the redirect pages will take care of the mechanics... Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 05:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PPS Also, I am not sure what you mean by "Macedonian Prva Liga is not correct English, or correct Macedonian" – do you mean that it's not correct to mix Macedonian and English in the article title (which I agree with), or that the translation is not correct (that is, Prva Liga does not translate to Premier League)? I note that the English website of the Macedonian Football Federation translates Prva Liga as "First League", but there is no English language website for the basketball league (the eurobasket website uses the terms "Superleague" and "First League", although I think Superleague can be discounted on the basis that's it is a legacy from when the competition was the "Kosmofon Superleague"). Just a quick Google seems to indicate that "First League" gets more hits for both basketball and football/soccer, but a dictionary translation of "прва лига" returns "premier league"... My 2 cents is that "Premier League" is the way to go on both articles... what do you think? Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 05:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс! I got your message on the Macedonian Premier League (disambiguation) page after creating it!! ;-) I think it is still necessary in case an editor creates an article about a player or team in either league and links to the league using [[Macedonian Premier League]]. I still think it will be useful to have the Macedonian Premier League page redirect to the disambiguation page, and I have cleaned up most of the links to the article so that it can be done safely now. Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 06:38, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс! I have made some changes to the sandbox article on the Macedonian alphabet, if you'd like to take a look and make any comments/suggestions. I have also addressed Laveol's comments on the sandbox talk page. (→ sandbox link, → sandbox talk link) Cheers, AWN AWN2 (talk) 06:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you missed out the fact that the annon had added a bg interwiki and you just reverted him, but why did you remove the name in Bulgarian (that's for Zajdi, Zajdi) and again what was that lol no stuff on Makedonsko devoiche since the section removed by the annon had a fact tag since November? If no sources are provided for a reasonable amount of time, info can validly be removed. As for Zajdi, Zajdi there seems to be interesting info about it on bg.wiki. I've already asked for sources regarding it. --LaveolT11:06, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. I hastily saved the previous version of Makedonsko Devojče - I was actually fine with removing the unsourced stuff, but I made the wrong revert. With Zajdi zajdi, again, I just saved the previous version by me, because most of the edits were actual vandalism. I didn't notice the bg interwiki though, nor did I notice the Bulgarian name was missing, as I didn't (consciously) remove it in the first place. BalkanFever11:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought so - I didn't want it to sound as an accusation. I don't know when the bg name was removed in the first place. --LaveolT11:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am tempted to add the Jews, since they were a considerable local autochtonous population, but am not quite sure (especially due the fact that most vanished due to the Holocaust in WWII). Also, what do you think about adding the Magyars? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Ianyevs are colonists from the Republic of Ragusa that have moved to the center of the Serbian Medieval Realm as miners practically seven centuries ago. They have survived in Kosovo until the Albanian KLA's guerrilla attacks, after which most of them fled to Croatia.
I will add the Magyars, but this is (by some definitions) going into Central Europe now......BTW they don't have to be ethnic groups, it's just that ethnicity (and the corresponding nationalism) is a big, if not, the reason that the Balkans can be sickening. BalkanFever10:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's because of Vojvodina (Serbia's northern province), which is a whole Balkannalia on its own. It is a history of Serb-Magyar melting connections and a large Hungarian population is there, whose language is official (next to four other languages officially, and one more de facto). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey
I translated the song 'Macedonian girl' (Makedonsko devojce) into SerboCroatian, as I saw you asking for it on one of the discussion pages. Here it is, so you can add it to the Macedonian and Bulgarian (and English) versions:
Makedonska djevojcica/curica
cvijet sareni
U basti ubrani
darom poklonjeni
Dal' postoji na ovom bijelom svijetu
Ljepse curice od Makedonke
Nema, nema nece se roditi
ljepsa curica od Makedonke
Nema zvijezda sjajnijih
od tvojih ociju
Da su nocu na nebu
Dan bi svanuo
Kada kose rasplices
kao koprina
ljepa si i ljepsa
od samovile
Kada pjesmu zapjeva
slavuja natpjeva
kada kolo zaigra
srce razigra
Blagodaram za porakata. Na stranicite kade si ja postavil pesnata(SH, B, S, H,) se' e vo red, samo vo prviot stih treba da odberes dali da go koristis zborot 'djevojcica' ili 'curica'. Treba da ostavis samo eden od niv, a ne dvata. Znaci: , 'Makedonska djevojcica, cvijet sareni'...ili 'Makedonska curica, cvijet sareni'..
Samo toa treba da se popravi na site mesta, ostanatoto e dobro. Pozdrav.24.86.110.10 (talk) 05:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I uste nesto, vo SrpskoHrvatskiot jazik moze da se prasuva na 2 nacina:a)-Dali postoji...? i b) Postoji li...(Jeli postoji..)?, taka, sto mozes da gi koristis i 2-ta nacina vo prevodot na nekoi delovi od pesnata. 'Dal' postoji..' mi se cini poprikladno za ovaa prilika, t.e. podobro se vklopuva vo ritmot na pesnata.
Sto se odnesuva na bugarskiot prevod, mislam oti ne e celosno tocno prevedena na bugarski, a prvo sto pagja vo oci e partiklata 'ke', koja vo bugarskiot jazik e 'shte'. Ne govoram standarden bugarski i ne bi mozel da ti pomognam vo toj prevod, ama mislam oti ke se najde nekoj da gi ispravi nekolkute greski vo taa verzija na pesnata. Pozdrav.24.86.110.10 (talk) 03:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's mostly OK, just a little POV. For instance it states the ICTY makes no such (20,000-44,000) estimate or strict claims. Frankly, I'm dubious about that number, it seems unsourced. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 19:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know what you mean, but I've got no idea for a better title.
Thanks. The disambiguation just came up automatically when i made that Pen'kovko culture redirects to Ants. If you know how to get rid of it, please feel free. Hxseek (talk) 04:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I guess i could. Don;t know if i can get the same format, because i use a different blank template, but i could try. What is it for ? I must say, it is not something i want to draw, if you gather my drift . . .Hxseek (talk) 06:20, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL. I also identify as a future Bulgarian citizen. And remember how someone who speaks Greek and likes Greece is Greek? Well there is your parallel. And technically you can't call me a Slav at all :-D. Which means you can't call around 240,000 of those Македонци in the census Slavs either. BalkanFever09:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Vlachs, you mean? No, of course not, they are Latin-speaking (ex-)Greeks... Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Власи are a completely separate category from the "Македонци" in the census anyway. It's just the accursed Грци and Бугари who are denied that distinction. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to Greek sources there were 250,000 Vlachs in 1994. But there were under 10,000 in 2002. And we didn't get any more Greeks, and we didn't just lose 1/8 of our population, therefore those Vlachs feel Macedonian (not Slavic Macedonian, because that wouldn't make sense). There are Грци and Бугари in the country - and they are free to write it on the census, which they do. You might argue that they're being "Macedonised" by those "evil Skopjans" but the fact remains. BalkanFever10:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But there aren't enough of them to be mentioned explicitly. Only a few hundred or so, right? We believe you. By the way, if the majority of Vlachs prefer to identify as "Macedonians" rather than "Vlachs" in the census, does that not mean they have assimilated to a Slavic ethnic group? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:17, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder what I put on my census form...I guess I'm Germano-Celtic. LOL if the census in the Republic of Macedonia is rigged, why are the Albanian numbers increasing? BalkanFever10:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If the Bulgarian government is stupid enough to let me in, I honestly don't care. But you do have a point, I think I'll get a Romanian one too. Come to think of it, the Greek government can give me one as well. BalkanFever10:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Only the ones that call themselves Greek can be Greeks. Obviously. Only the ones that call themselves Macedonian can be Macedonians. Only the ones that call themselves Australian can be Australians (all 133 of them). It doesn't change the fact that I can get two passports for being the same ethnicity.BalkanFever11:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Beware we might try to assimilate you :)). Btw I was just going to have a talk with a colleague of mine that happens to be from Veles about the whole Todor Aleksandrov incident when it turned out she was from a Bulgarian family. I was wondering why her family ended in -ova and not in -ski. She seemed too reluctant to give up the secret. She said her family were Macedonians on the censi cause they were scared, and her dad was one the celebration (secretly). What the hell is going on there? If always thought the problem was not serious until I heard that. And don't worry - our government is stupid enough to give a Bulgarian ID to everyone with Bulgarian roots (take it as you wish). So you've waited to years or paid something to someone ;) (there was such a scandal as well in Bitola) --LaveolT12:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because "Macedonians" are really Bulgarians, you mean? Yeah, lucky you, though only one of the two passports really counts for much. Actually, one can be Aromanian and Macedonian and Greek and Australian. And I'm sure there are many more than 133 of them. With close to a million Greeks in Australia, tens if not hundreds of thousands would fit that description. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, because Romania and Greece both consider Aromanians as a subgroup of Romanians and Greeks respectively. They can go about thinking that is the truth, and giving me passports, but how could it possibly change that I am neither Romanian nor Greek? With the Republic of Macedonia, I have a passport for reasons other than ethnicity. With Bulgaria, I'm sure they will assume I'm ethnic Macedonian, because I have a Macedonian passport, therefore meaning (to them) I have Bulgarian roots. So you say along the 133 "Vlachs" of Australia, there are Vlachs who consider themselves Greeks - and? Of the Macedonian Australians (not the kind that you like) there are some Vlachs as well. Some of the Serbs here are Cincars. Some of those who write Australian on the census are Aromanians. The Aromanians are probably the most assimilable people from the Balkans. If they have been assimilated into every ethnic group of the Balkans, and even the diaspora (not the same as the Greek diaspora) has been assimilated, what does that make them? It makes them whatever they individually call themselves (Macedonian (not the kind you like), German, Greek, French, Australian) and they can individually say they are Aromanian/of Aromanian origin or they can not. It does not make them whatever you (and your government) feels like calling them. BalkanFever23:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've misunderstood. Greece wouldn't give you or any self-declared (non-Greek) "Macedonian" a passport, even if your parents were born in Greece. The Greeks of Albania have had a hard enough time securing Greek citizenship, and their ethnicity isn't disputed by anybody. In other words, Greece is not hell-bent on Hellenizing minority groups in neighbouring countries, as you seem to be implying. The Aromanians of Albania are a special case, espousing as they do a Greek identity in large part. But we know that the assimilation campaign has worked fabulously on you guys, to the point where you're now plus royaliste que le roi. That said, there must be some Vlachs who resisted the pressure to abandon their traditional Greek identity, so I wouldn't want to paint the entire community with the same brush. I agree with you wholeheartedly that the Aromanians are, ultimately, whatever they choose to be, and I wouldn't dream of calling or even offering to call you a Greek. The majority of Vlachs, however, in Australia and elsewhere, do consider themselves Greeks, and that option should remain open to all, including your fellow "Macedonian" Vlachs, even if you find it disagreeable. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But they do have the option - they just don't. They could be scared, but saying "don't be scared" won't really change much. They really do choose to be Macedonian - or they choose to be Vlach (they don't see a connection to Greeks). Maybe some of them are confused and think "Macedonian" means Greek :D. With the passport, though, do I actually have to tell them I'm from the north? Can't I just say "I'm Vlach" and let them assume that makes me Greek? BalkanFever05:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, most probably don't see a connection to Greeks - any more. But can you really speak for all of them? Assuming you were born in Australia, you would have to produce documents proving your ancestors' connection to Greece. And unless at least one grandparent actually holds Greek citizenship, that would be nigh impossible. As mentioned above, Greeks from Albania who have been living in Greece for the past 20 years are still waiting for their Greek passports. Furthermore, my guess is the "Македонија" littered all over your parents' birth certificates might induce some queasiness in the Greek consular staff. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well then I guess I'll have to settle for Bulgarian and possibly Romanian then. As you very well know, this will be the only way I'll become European any time soon.—Preceding unsigned comment added by BalkanFever (talk • contribs)
Will Bulgaria approve your application if you're not of Slavic (i.e. "Bulgarian") origin? I remember reading somewhere that having a "Macedonian" passport is not enough to become a Bulgarian citizen; ethnic Albanians, for example, are invariably rejected. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 05:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seriously, why would you want to take out the citizenship of a country with which you don't identify? Wouldn't it be an affront to your ancient Macedonian identity to bear a passport of one of the Four Wolves? Bizarre. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 04:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much because one of those four wolves likes to veto. So the Vlachs are ancient Macedonians now? Good for you. Seriously, do you think my identity is that fragile? "Аз съм български државянин" - oh no! If it's on paper it must be true. Please. And you can talk, what with you considering my identity an affront to yours and all. BalkanFever07:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, Любчо? Yes, I can talk; I'm not the one taking out a "Macedonian" passport, which would be the equivalent. Do you think I could, given that I self-identify as Macedonian? For a laugh, I actually gave the Archaeological Museum in Skopje a call the other day to clarify the official party line. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the ancient Macedonians spoke а language which later developed into Vlach, and that the etymon of Macedonia was not μακεδνός (silly me) but the "very old Macedonian word" мак, meaning "poppy" or "opium". Clearly. Strangely, my Serbian friends later confirmed that the exact same word exists in Serbian, so I guess that makes them Macedonians too. You'll let anyone have a go but the Greeks, it seems. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. When your own PM abandons his glorious ancient Macedonian heritage in favour of the inferior "Tatar Mongoloids", you have to ask yourself how fragile your identity really is... ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Come on. Consciously boosting Bulgaria's demographic strength, and via the EU's population-based cohesion funds, its wealth as well, can hardly be helping the "Macedonist" cause. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone who identifies with the existence of a "Macedonian" nation is a "Macedonist". Just like Greeks have an attachment to Hellenism. Is it necessarily pejorative? Or are you automatically offended by anything a Greek tells you? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is used in a negative/pejorative/polemic sense by Greeks and Bulgarians. I know this, and I don't expect anyone, much less you, to use it in a positive or neutral sense. And don't add the quotes after I respond - they play a role in semantics. By the way, one does not need to think of their nation's cause (if that really is what you meant) for everything they do. Getting a Bulgarian citizenship is purely for me; I will benefit. If you think I'm undermining my identity, which you dismiss as fake anyway, I really don't care. BalkanFever09:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The quotes pertain to my rejection of the name "Macedonian" for the ethnonation, not the existence of a "Macedonist" ideology, which I certainly don't dispute. So it's only here that you feel you have to defend the national cause, not the real world? Fine with me. If only your national leaders did the same, we would've solved this dispute years ago. Moving right along, do you think you could find out if my Macedonian identity qualifies me for a poppy-land passport? I'm genuinely curious. Фала. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When one small instance of not defending (as opposed to actively undermining) the national cause benefits me, I will receive the benefits, because I am selfish sometimes. And don't play dumb - after all it was your national(ist) leaders with their "No Macedonia" position that fucked up everything. I will do some research for you, because I am curious as well, but I doubt you can become a citizen. BalkanFever09:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hardly small, but that's open to interpretation. It is the document by which you will officially have to identify yourself to the rest of Europe. "I know my passport says Bulgarian, but I'm actually not." ¿Perdón?
I prefer to think that the hijacking of the name by the Yugoslav Communists was what fucked everything up in the first place. Thanks in advance for the research, but you're probably right. So much for VMRO's stated aim of a Macedonia for all Macedonians, regardless of national origins... ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 09:45, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'll find a way - "I know it says Bulgarian, but I'm actually Turkish" works for some I guess. You do realise that we will go in circles many more times - you have your opinion and I have mine. But as long as we get some form of knowledge out of it (as I have with Greek citizenship and phonology), it has a benefit. And I'm all for benefits ;-). BalkanFever10:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're a curious bunch that have always fascinated me, I'll give you that. I understand your position thoroughly, but I still reject it. The key to a more harmonious future lies in achieving some sort of compromise. The capitulation of the Greek side is not the solution, as you seem to believe. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:13, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've noticed Russian sometimes employs accents too, particularly for the first mention of a name or word, e.g. Dmitry Medvedev. Do you know if this applies to all Cyrillic orthographies? If so, Ко́стас Караманли́с could one day be the leader of all Macedonians. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:14, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We don't have accents for emphasis, but we do have accents for disambiguation in some words. For instance, се is part of a reflexive verb, whereas сѐ means "everything". Сѐ ќе се стори = Everything will work (itself) out. We also have и which means "and" and ѝ which is feminine possessive. You may have also noticed the acute accent on к, but that is considered a separate letter. Same with Г and Ѓ. As far as I know, Serbian and Bulgarian don't use any accents at all. I would expect Ukrainian and Belarusian to be influenced by Russian, but I'm not sure about them. BalkanFever07:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong - we do the и thing, too ;) . Btw surely I don't think you'll ever become Bulgarian. And it is kind of "hijacking the system" when you lie about your self-identification. From my experience I've seen that Macedonians (ethnic) are one of the most nationalistic (no offense) groups. There might be a few reasons for this which I won't mention (it's a delicate matter, isn't it). But, you know, in my first year in university we had 5 or 6 students from RoM. One of them was called Македонка (Macedonian (feminine)) and we were absolutely stunned to find out this was her name. It was like they named her Macedonian just in case someone might take her for something else (guess what). And imagine how even more stunned we became when she told us (just after she introduced herself) something about the great Macedonian king Samuil - and that without any provocation from our side. She just told 50 students which had passed an exam in history one of the biggest jokes ever. In two weeks or so she left. And there is another great story. There was a meeting of Balkan students in Serbia last month (a day or two prior to Kosovo's self-proclamation). A friend of mine was there (not a colleague from my uni) and he came back stunned as well. What happened was that the participants from RoM didn't even want to talk to those from Bulgaria. They had a great scandal with the Albanians which is explainable, but just after that they had a scandal with the Serbs as well (wow!!!). The reasons were nationalistic and the Macedonians (ethnic) virtually isolated themselves (except for one of them). And even more interesting was the fact that Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians parted all night together (no Greeks at the meeting - don't know why). That explains a lot in my opinion. --LaveolT18:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They're not all like that. I have a good friend from Ohrid who happily accepts the Bulgarian heritage of his hometown and the Greek heritage of ancient Macedonia, loves Bulgarian and Greek music and thinks we should all just get along. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 06:32, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I know such guys as well. It's a pitty those with not that strong nationalistic feelings are a minority. --LaveolT08:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course we should. I don't have problems with Greek or Bulgarian individuals. I have a problem with nationalist groups of Greeks and Bulgarians. To be fair, there aren't many Bulgarians in Australia, but I have met enough (nationalist and non-nationalist). You are right, Laveol, I am hijacking the system, but only because the system is letting me. Essentially, I have the choice of getting a citizenship, or not getting one. The only difference between the two is the EU. Nothing else changes. I really can't vouch for other people - that is their problem, but Macedonians are not a nationalist ethnic group. There are French people called François. The nationalists are a minority, I can assure you. BalkanFever08:44, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I really hope so. And I hope that the majority will not give the nationalist minority to get too loud. It's starting to get worrying. RoM should really enter NATO at this time, not later and new disputes with its neighbours are less than welcome. --LaveolT08:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it should, but that (very) old dispute is still lingering.....—Preceding unsigned comment added by BalkanFever (talk • contribs)
Don't you think Big Kon has a point when he says that we can't exactly be allies when we have serious oustanding issues to resolve? It is an alliance Skopje is trying to join, after all. Your statement above is telling: "I don't have problems with Greek or Bulgarian individuals", code for "I do have a problem with Greece and Bulgaria as nation-states". Would Skopje, for example, go to war for Greece and/or Bulgaria? And if the answer is no, is NATO really the right club for you? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That is a non-issue, since Greece would only be bordering NATO countries. Who's going to attack, Egypt? I'm sure we'll be a big help there. Ditto for Bulgaria. The only problem I can possibly imagine is Serbia, but I doubt they would invade Bulgaria and not us. BalkanFever09:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I meant it more as an outstanding internal issue: stability, etc. etc. and like a country that is in some deep trouble that could so easily spread to the whole region. Oh, and if there is someone to start a war oin the Balkans it'd be Serbia alright, but why should they attack you? To get rid of the Albanians or what? They've attacked us (and we them) a looot of times already (not proud of it). --LaveolT10:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well if they declare war on a NATO member, they're already fucked. So they might as well declare war on a non-NATO member (if that is the case). There is no doubt that Macedonia would be the easiest opponent, essentially free land. But yes, joining NATO is definitely for stability, and I think also for the economic benefits that come from stability (more investment etc.) BalkanFever10:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think about it the Republic is in the most delicate of situations: On one side it has to sustain its relations with Serbia (the only possible ally in the current situation as it becomes more and more obvious that RoM is not that willing to accept further Bulgarian aid - you know that BG army has already prepared RoM army for NATO - programmes, equipment etc), but on the other side it has to be careful with the Albanian population which naturally supports Kosovo's independence. What a situation - and without throwing in the naming issue./ --LaveolT10:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you did, ages ago. Don't ask me to find the diff now. I remember a very long list of self-declared ancestries which included Arvanitic, Vlach and Roma, though you could have been joking. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 13:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's already in the infobox on the left. It doesn't need to be stated in the intro, because it's not really important (compared to Macedonian being spoken in Macedonia). PozdravBalkanFever10:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello BalkanFever. You did well in reminding me, I confess I had completely forgotten about your comment on my talk page weeks ago. I apologize for that. Hmm, Montenegro and Moldova are such different cases, but I can understand your comparison. Basically, I supported Montenegro's independence because it would be positive for it, as I support the unification of Moldova and Romania because I also think that would be positive for the region. In my view, Montenegro had its development severely hampered by being stuck with Serbia. For instance, by being independent Montenegro will have the opportunity to join the European Union in a few years. Serbia I can't conceive joining anytime soon. And honestly, I'm glad about that. I don't think that the Serbs, generally speaking, are ready. As for Moldova, I think that its people deserve a better life. By uniting with Romania they would be able to automatically join the European Union and have some help, not just economically, but also in many other areas such as the fight against corruption, crime, etc.. Of course that there are many factors that made have these stances, but basically these should suffice. Why were you so interested in my views? What are yours by the way? Regards, Húsönd01:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Супер сум царе. Ти завидувам - ти сега во Австралија најверојатно уживаш на некоја егзотична плажа со коктел во рака. За ова со статијата, сега сум зафатен малку, ама во првиот момент кога малку повеќе ќе се ослободам, ќе ти дадам детален одговор. Голем поздрав, и се најдобро. --Revizionist (talk) 13:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I don't think either of the two has any autonomist goals (at least officially). I put the fact-tag so as not to remove the whole thing. --LaveolT09:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't know who it was, but today somebody put back the entire Bulgaria section, which is why I added Macedonia. I think the parties can be considered equivalent opposites (they were both banned for "separatism"). Either way, if one looks at the whole article, it's really doesn't have many sources. I would be in favour of removing both, because they only serve to misinform. BalkanFever10:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, agreed. I'm removing them. Yeah, now as I look at it, there were so many reverts and so ons that you can't tell what really happens. --LaveolT10:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BUCKOVSKI WORRIED: NEGATIVE FLOW OF RELATIONS BETWEEN MACEDONIA AND S-M
Ohryd, 27 August 2005. (Beta) Premier of Macedonia Vlado Buckovski stated today that he is worried by the negative flow of the so far excellent inter-state between Macedonia and Serbia-Montenegro.
Buckovski said that responding to a question of journalists regarding the case of ethnic Macedonian citizens of S&M in whose passports the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) is written of the constitutional name the Republic of Macedonia (RoM).
"It was clear that it might lead to worsening relations. It came to this and that's why I have before, and I appeal now for work on maintaining good inter-state relations" were the Macedonian Prime Minister's words.
He added that it needs to be cleared that "if the Churches and their dispute is the cause of worsening relations, that needs to be stated clearly, and the dispute must be left alone to the Churches themselves to solve it".
President of Macedonia Branko Crvenkovski, as he stated, "wants to believe that it is an error, writing BJRM instead of RM." He added also that the Macedonian Foreign Ministry has demanded an elaboration from SM's authorities using their ambassador to Serbia and Montenegro.
President of the Association of Macedonians in S&M Gojko Ilijevski, who lives in Pozarevac, claims that for the last year the local Macedonians have been receiving documents from the police in which BJRM is written instead of RM, as well as that that he has received clarification from that it is just because of the software of Serbia's Ministry of Interior Affairs.
Not really. Serbia uses all the time "Republic of Macedonia", but it hasn't officially recognized it because of Greece, which is a good ally of Serbia - and which, as you know, isn't ready to recognize Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 10:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ey, merci pour m'écrire dans cette langue! :) Tu écris très bien - et tu peux me tutoyer, je me sens trop vieux quand quelqu'un me vouvoie ;) Quant aux trolls, je suppose que tu as raison, cela serait mieux d'éviter les encourager. JdeJ (talk) 00:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hi balkan fever i was wondering if you could help me add some pictures onto wikipedia because they keep getting deleted they are in refernce to the use of the MAcedonian Langauge in te balkans if you could get back to me please. You left a comment on my talk???? page and i thought you might be interested???
I don't like the acronym "FYROM" any more than you do, and I understand your concern. I also think that if it wasn't so ugly, Greece would probably stand a better chance for the naming dispute. I follow closely the developments in your country, and the voices seeking compromise (and the nationalist ones that do not). Do you think it is feasible? BTW, were you aware that 1992 FA minister Antonis Samaras (the one who turned down Mitsotakis when he was seeking to compromise for "Slavomacedonia") stated something along the lines of "there's no reason for a major recoil on the name issue with a state that may not exist as such in the close future". Jesus. NikoSilver11:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now, back to the point. Honestly, I don't think a solution is feasible by the NATO summit. Branko wants to keep the identity of the people intact. "I am a New Macedonian" is kind of insulting. It's not comparable to "I'm a New Yorker" - when do they interact with other "Yorkers"? It seems to imply that we are less "Macedonian" than you. I can't think of a possible demonym stemming from "Macedonia-Skopje", except of course, that apparent metonymic exonym that I'm not going to bother starting an argument over again. For me personally, I still lean towards "Upper Macedonian" - as long as you are "Lower Macedonian", but I don't see anyone back there going for it. A different disambiguation will be needed. This will be a historic agreement; it cannot be rushed. Obviously, 17 years is not a rush, but what I mean is: from the start of a search for an adequate adjective to the agreement of its use cannot be rushed. There should be a referendum at some point, although low turnout could be a problem if, as I said before, the options infringe on the identity of the people. BalkanFever01:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Come on, it's about as insulting as "I'm a New Zealander". And I don't think the Μακεδόνες would suddenly become the "Old" Macedonians, ergo "more Macedonian" or whatever. Everyone in (the wider region of) Macedonia would continue to be Macedonian in a regional sense, but those in New Macedonia would also be New Macedonian in the ethnonational sense, while those south of the border would continue to be Greek. As for the referendum, why would they choose to abstain rather than come out in force to vote against it, if their identity is so important to them? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 01:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't live there, and I'm not a politician. I'm just saying I don't expect anything to come from that. I mean if the referendum was between, say, three choices of disambiguation. Low turnout would mean failure of the referendum. BalkanFever01:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Alex! Well, it's finally up – I overhauled the Macedonian alphabet article :-) I hope it all goes well! I haven't uploaded the pictures yet because I am having a few problems with the licensing. Thank you so much again for your help :-) Благодарам, AWN2 (talk) 14:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Знам де, but I'm quite he sure Canadian Bobby wanted an actual translation, as I offered my services at the talk page of International.......Kosovo............independence. However, I was referring to Dopia, not Czech. BalkanFever09:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there. Thanks for the note, and it took a while to get back to you, owing to edit conflicts, length of the time to save the article, and even Wikipedia disappearing for a spell.
Anyway, it was just a typo in a closing tag,
<ref/>
instead of
</ref>
just a slash out of place. This caused the reference to remain open and gobble up all that followed. Be on a lookout for those as well as unclosed html comments:
-->
is requied to close off a comment. Absence of either will cause this sort of anomaly. You may need to reinsert your attempted comment; I think a one-liner assent was lost in the general fixing effort – yours? Take care, --Mareklugtalk15:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Very interesting indeed. Maybe you should add a summary at the start (or end) of the section so readers can understand it easier - that Kosovo secession is illegal. At least technically. My knowledge of international law isn't great, so I can't really add much content, but I'll be happy to try and help any way I can. BalkanFever13:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well no, it shouldn't be an attempt to convince the reader that it's illegal - but rather present a neutral image. Yes, the arguments against independence are overwhelming when compared to those that are in favor, but that is just a result of the reality, and not Wikipedia itself.
I have thoroughly studied through aspects of the legal question regarding Kosovo, and have dedicated several last years to it. However, User:The Devil's Advocate had removed practically all of that data, so that it still leaves down to a summarized claim - without any single citation. It also doesn't even mention the crucial points established by the Contact Group in 2005 (according to which a negotiated status must be achieved, the negotiations cannot be stopped, territorial integrity must be respected and no side can conduct unilateral acts). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:07, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Macedonian girl,
a colorful flower,
gathered in a garden,
given as a gift.
Refrain:
Is there in this wide world,
a more beautiful girl than a Macedonian?
There isn't, there isn't, there won't be born.
a more beautiful girl than a Macedonian!
There are no stars more beautiful,
than your eyes.
If they are in the night sky,
day will come.
Refrain...
When she undoes her hair,
like silk,
she is lovely,
lovelier than a fairy.
Refrain...
When she sings a song,
she out-sings a nightingale.
When she starts to dance,
her heart dances.
Refrain...
Macedońskie dziewczę
Co za barwny kwiat
Tak w ogrodzie zebrany
Pyszny dar
Refren:
Czy na świecie szerokim,
Jest dziewczyna piękniejsza od Macedonki?
Oj, nie ma takowej, nie ma, jeszcze się taka nie urodziła
Piękniejsza dziewczyna od Macedonki.
Nie ma gwiazd piękniejszych,
Od oczu Twoich.
Jarząc się na nocnym niebie
Zapowiadają poranek.
Refren...
Kiedy włosy rozplata
jak jedwab
śliczna jest
śliczniejsza od wróżki
Refren...
A gdy piosenkę zaśpiewa
To głosem słodszym od słowika
A kiedy pora do tańca
Całym sercem zatańczy.
There you go. Out of natural curiosity, are Macedonian girls dark or blonde? When Sappho wrote about her daughter, Kleis, she wrote that she has a daughter like golden flowers, and she advised that girls with hair yellower than the sun should wear only a headress of fresh flowers, but that she herself was dark, and a purple cloth was considered a fine headress for dark-haired girls in her day. Or words to the effect. --Mareklugtalk06:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Polish girls: both. The canonical Polish maiden has blonde hair and hazel or light brown eyes, possibly blue. She has darker carnation than a Swedish girl. However, owing to conquests by just about everybody, Polish girls are quite a diverse bouquet... the canonical Polish-Jewish girl being one particular variety. --Mareklugtalk07:42, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Um, Pola Negri? Not contemporary, and we don't have good nekkid pix od her to compare, but timeless. And nicely rounds out the dark end of the spectrum... You should also like her for her Slovak father. IMHO Slovak girls can hardly be improved on. :) Btw. we fixed up the pl interwiki/added categorires/wikified. And I took the liberty of anotating the translation credit in a ref. :) Fair is fair. Probably should be done for all versions – if only to afix the blame. --Mareklugtalk11:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC link in Makedonsko Devojče is broken – everywhere, I'm affraid. I tried to spy out the right content on the BBC Cardiff Singer of the World 2001 website using Google site search, but couldn't find anything appropriate. Just a head's up. --Mareklugtalk06:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was reading somewhere that the exonym used by the Vlachs for the "ethnic Macedonians" is (still) "Bulgarians". Is that true? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lol. It could be for the ones in Greece, and maybe the Albanian ones, but you would have to ask them. To your north it's "Machidunets" or "Makedonits" or whatever, depending on accent and orthography. Although I've heard about both groups resorting to "Romanians" and "Bulgarians" if there are tensions running high... by which I mean two neighbours having a disagreement in some village. Interesting to note though that the Vlachs have "Armãnj" or "Rramãnj" for themselves and "Greci" or whatever for Greeks ;-) BalkanFever11:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue that they have been Macedonians themselves. I was more interested in the traditional name used by the Vlachs for their Slav neighbours, before they were instructed to call them "Macedonians" by Yugoslavia and "Skopjans" by Greece. I have (Greek, admittedly) sources that allege that the Vlachs of Bitola still refer to them as Vurgari or Gurgari. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 12:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps better if you get yourself a copy of Inkscape, then you can play around with colors, inscriptions, legends and whatever you wish to your heart's content. Fut.Perf.☼13:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the thing: I have Inkscape - and I have no clue what the hell I'm doing. Seriously, is there a fill-in tool or what? Nothing makes sense on this program....BalkanFever14:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't do fill-in. In handles "paths" - objects consisting of a a curved contour line and the space it surrounds. In my map, each country is a path, you just click on it and go to object->fill and stroke, then you can select the fill color for it. – I agree the learning curve is steep. Fut.Perf.☼14:12, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex! I was wondering what have you done with the article about Ilirida? Would it be deleted or not? I hope so it will be cause there is no such thing. Regards--MacedonianBoy (talk) 18:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason I think keeping it out in the open will make people feel better. I'm just happy people are working together, honestly.Beam (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hi, you wrote in wiki page slavic language greece, that you believe that the only source that would define the diference of macedonian/dopia and macedonian would be found from Makedonija? do you have a link to any of those sources? thanks, PMK1 (talk) 08:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that is what I think, because not many others would compare (standard) Macedonian and Dopia. I don't have any sources yet, but I'll look around on the net. I'm in Australia, so I probably won't be able to find any hard-copy books here, but I'll ask some of the other Macedonian users if they can help. Pozdrav BalkanFever08:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ajde dobro. Would you also be able to change the template for Makedontsi so that when the Macedonians in Albania part is clicked it will go to this page => Macedonians in Albania and if possible please help with it??? cao PMK1 (talk) 07:56, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We have finally got a working NPOV intro done on the Kosovo article, if you have further suggestions please make them regarding the intro. I'd like to discuss the info boxes now and would appreciate your comments. Thanks.Beam (talk) 02:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just breezing through, but I thought I'd offer my thoughts on your Cyrillic alphabet for Polish. First, you have л and љ reversed: Polish ł originally represented a very dark [ɫ] like they have in Russian (for л) – I've even read that the pronunciation [ɫ] is still prestigious in Polish theatrical performances. Meanwhile, the clear [l] of l is more akin to the palatalized љ.
No need for є and ў, which don't make a lot of sense etymologically or comparatively. Use ѧ and ѫ instead; they're the old letters for Cyrillic nasal vowels.
Similarly, why use й when ы would serve equally well? Better yet, follow the example of Ukrainian and Belarussian by using і for Polish i, и for Polish y.
(I love projects like this and I often do them myself. Especially when some important deadline looms!) Solidarity, Q·L·1968☿22:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the tip :). With л and љ, I was looking at it more like "L is Л (as with Macedonian), so modified L (Ł) can be modified Л (Љ)" - but I see your point. For the nasals, I didn't think of using archaic letters, just random modern ones, and I knew they wouldn't make sense, so thanks for that. In regards to yery, I was thinking about it, but following њ or љ it would look a bit confusing, although decimal I and И are indeed better. Regards, BalkanFever06:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well first of all i don't only think silly but also immoral the perception by some hardliners in Greece (thank God from 1991 to 2008 a lot has been changed and they now form a minority rather ludicrous)that the term "Macedonia" shouldn't be part of the name of your republic.
But what Greek government now says (and it's absolutely right) is that you can't monopolize the name.A compromise can't be made unless your hardliners (and funny thing is that the driving force behind those VMRO and other nationalists is your diaspora which lives in the safety of Canada and Australia but pursues and backs up policies that only people inside FYROM must deal with) come to terms with two facts a)Macedonia is a geographic region shared by 3 states b)your state doesn't have neither the biggest part nor consists the biggest population group, when at the same time Greece doesn't only have both but also more than 50% of the whole territory.
Just like there are the US of Mexico and there a New Mexico state inside USA there can be a New Macedonia too.The reason why it should have the adjective new is simply because Greek Macedonia (as part of the Greek modern state) precedes by far any formation of a federal or independent state of your Macedonia.
Thank god we have put our stupid hardliners on the sidelines (at last) it's time to put yours too.For me someone shouldn't have to prove connections with Alexander the great to be considered a Macedonian.Because then none could.Ancient macedonians were a synthesis of tribes hellenized but it's silly for us to think that in any way after 2,500 there can be a direct concrete genetic link with the ancient past.The legacy is only cultural and survives through the language.In fact for me a Cameroonian who studies and is interested in Greek philosophers is more rightly "an offspring" of them than a Greek (even with the most noble ancestry) who acts like an illiterate.
We have sadly two nationalisms (both claiming bullshit) but the fact is that yours is engaged in a battle it can't win.And Greece is and should be the most reliable partner of ROM for many reasons.Your nationalists must come to terms with that.You know every Balkan nation had it's "Megali Idea".Bulgarians pursued it and got thrashed in 1913 Turks had it and got thrashed in 1918 we had it and got thrashed in 1922 Serbia had it and is getting thrashed."United Macedonia" is your "Megali Idea" and with your small size and power you can't afford to pursue such a stubborn policy and experience your "thrash".
If ROM sides with Serbia then Serbs in the name of Slavic roots will try to absorb it if you side with Bulgaria they in the name of the strong heritage and cultural link they most certainly will absorb you.Greece is your only natural ally in the region the only one who can offer stability political and economical, but only if nationalisms be put aside.There are no 1 (kind of) Macedonians so let's enjoy the diversity.
I have argued with many people here when i tell them that as a group of people who have continuous presence in Macedonia region from 600 onwards you are more than entitled to have Macedonian adjective to your name.In fact i personally believe that a Mexican who saw birth and saw the skies first time in our region he is a Macedonian too.In any case i can't seriously deny your identity when for example my family has less than 90 years presence in the region.
What you said about the ethnic Macedonian diaspora can be said about the Greek diaspora as well, or any diaspora. The most hard-line nationalists of all ethnic groups aren't even in their own country. We both know very well how big Macedonia as a region is, but unfortunately some do not. For many Greeks, "Macedonia" is only the Greek region. For many ethnic Macedonians, "Macedonia" means only their country. Both groups have tried to monopolise this term, but today, and you'll have to trust me, we don't.
The ethnic group have called themselves "Macedonians" for a while now. Nobody told them they couldn't, nobody told them to disambiguate. They didn't monopolise it, they never said they were the only Macedonians, it just so happened that in an ethno-national sense, they were the only "Macedonians". That is not our fault. In a regional sense, of course many Greeks are Macedonians, and many Bulgarians and many Albanians. You have the ability to disambiguate between your ethnicity and your regional identity. We don't. It wasn't our elaborate plan, it just happened. Not to mention the fact that "Greek" can only refer to one thing, and "Slav" can refer to so many.
As for United Macedonia, we know we would get thrashed if we tried it, which is why we don't. It is more of a nostalgia, if you will. "Macedonia was so great until it was divided" is the belief of the people - told through generations. Whether that was the actual reality doesn't matter to them. But they know for a fact that there is no "United Macedonia" for the future. They don't need to get thrashed for that - they know. Just as your people know there will never be a new Byzantine Empire, just like the Turks know the Ottoman Empire is long-gone. This is not, and should not be, Greece's problem about the name of the country or the people - it is a problem about RoM's version of history. That can be settled in a different manner. All history in the Balkans is subjective - be it in Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Romania or RoM. Why should that play a role in what the country is called? What is more worrying: a name that you perceive as implying irredentist goals, or the mobilisation of troops?
With the disambiguation, the country is one thing, but the people are another. "New Macedonia" for the country, would mean "New Macedonians" for the citizens, of course, but what is being opposed is "New Macedonians" for the ethnic group. As I said, the ethnic group have used the name "Macedonians" to refer to themselves, parallel to the Greeks in Macedonia using "Macedonians" along with "Greeks" to refer to themselves. Before the formation of our independent state. The same way the Greeks called themselves Greeks before the formation of their independent state. Why should I, being in Australia, call myself (ethnic) "New Macedonian" while my friend calls himself (ethnic) Greek?
Well the thing is that the sole term "Macedonian" is challenged.For Greeks it's a regional identity overlapped by the Greek one for you is the national identity.A Greek feels that if you are going to be recognized as sole Macedonians then Greek Macedonian would simply mean a citizen of ROM with Greek roots just like Albanian Macedonian means.And the next question would be if these people are called Macedonians so they are the rightful owners of Macedonia or they are more strongly connected, disregarding the Greeks and Bulgarians of the region as if they simply settled the region.In any case gives a Macedonian more of a claim against the other nationalities when all have similar rights in the region.(All Greeks in Macedonia aren't immigrants there were a sizable Greek community already here)
And when your prime minister pays respect to United Macedonia cauzes and celebrations and when ROM promotes falsified DNA data about how africaneers Greeks are and how indigenous Macedonians are and when you see so much hate about the Greeks in the region who are called derogatory either Grkomanoi or Turks and slogans Macedonia to Macedonians and stuff like it's obvious that you are transmitting the wrong signals.You pave the way for Karantzaferis and priests.You alienate the public here and to an extent not unjustifiably.
You have moral right when you say why we weren't called "New Greece" for example but the thing is that Greece (of 1821) as a conception of being the continuation and direct offspring of the Ancient one (no matter how romantic and largely unscientific) wasn't challenged by anyone else.I mean there wasn't an other group of people in the Balkans claiming to be Greeks separate from us and Greece (which after all is a region -Peloponnese + Central Greece and many islands) wasn't divided between us and anyone else, in any case Ottomans who may could challenge that, had no interest in being portrayed as the grandsons of Perikles rather than the grandsons of Osman.
So you see there is a difference between the two situations.I nevertheless hope for a mutual solution to be found.For the shake of all of us.For the shake of Balkans.Balkan people have a ludicrous desire to look as less Balkan as they could to look as more distinct from their neighboors as they could but the thing is that they are more connected genetically culturally economically politically as they could ever image--Eagle of Pontus (talk) 14:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clear up the thing about our PM, he was not technically bowing to United Macedonia. He was laying a wreath on the grave of Goce Delčev, a national hero. There just happened to be a United Macedonia map put up there, although he really should have removed it, because it should have been obvious to him that the Greek media would react this way. And I don't know if our government has ever promoted that Spanish guy's research. But calling you "sub-saharans" is not something that only our nationalists have come up with. Turkish, Albanian, and various other Balkan nationalists have done the same.
"Grkomani" isn't a term for all Greeks. It is a term for the Slavophones who call themselves Greek, as opposed to ethnic Macedonian. Bulgarians use it too, because they believe the Slavophones are Bulgarians. The minority issue is a very big problem for everyone in the Balkans. Apparently our PM still has family in Greece. Same for the mayor of Skopje, Trifun Kostovski (Triphonas Kostopoulos possibly?).
My point wasn't really about Greece as a country, it was more about the people. You called yourselves Greeks before you were independent. In exactly the same way that we called ourselves Macedonians before we were independent. And we weren't really disputed. We were not regional Macedonians in Yugoslavia - we were ethnic Macedonians. But let's see how it all works out. BalkanFever11:07, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hi, balkan fever. I was wondering if you were interested in starting a page for the macedonians in pirin??(similar to macedonians in albania)? there is only a little informatoin on the macedonians page about the macedonians in pirin. i will title it Pirin Macedonians so please add to it if you wish? i would also like to include the 1948 survey which 250,000 people declared to be macedonians.?
also i was wondering if you had any knowledge with maps? i found a map on maps.blog.com.mk/ at the EXTREME bottom. would you be abel to re-create it or get someone to??? thanx, PMK1 (talk) 01:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
hi, thanx mine i guess yours is a little bit crowded.
anyway, i have made the page Pirin Macedonians i was wondering if you oculd change the makedonija template to go that page. if you think Macedonian Bulgarians, or Macedonians in Bugaria is better than i guess change it??? so just reply on ma page plz. have a look and tell me what you think, ajde cao PMK1 (talk) 10:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi BalkanFever. I have read your e-mail only minutes ago. My apologies for the late reply. As you can surmise, I usually don't check my inbox more than once a day.
I had notice your edit request yesterday :-) but since only you and Mareklug had expressed agreement to it, I was waiting to see if anyone else had something to say about it. I was just about to post a short comment there, asking if anyone objected to it, with the intention of doing the edit a few hours later, when I saw Happy‑melon deal with it. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 12:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't quite understand a phrase from the sentence: Само да те прашам нешто што го пикаш газот кај што не му е местото?. I got the ass part, but what's up with that пикаш? Sorry that I bother you with this - I'd ask the user who wrote it to me, but he deletes all my comments from his talkpage. --LaveolT22:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It means stick/put. Now would be a good time to ask you: do you believe Macedonian and Bulgarian to be the same language? BalkanFever09:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, that's a hard issue and kind of a hard personal question as well (personal cause it would tell a lot about me as well). What I think is that it could've been the Bulgarian language. It's too similar to call it just a coincidence, but at present it is too different to call it simply a dialect. It could've been cause when the standardization (or codification if you prefer) of the Bulgarian language (the modern one) took place, the eastern dialects (the Eastern Balkan Slavic dialects so to say) were taken into account (they were closer to Russian and so on). So the standard Bulgarian language was distanced from these western dialects (My thought is that all regions from the Black sea to the Ohrid lake or even further had one language with only regional differences - no matter how you'd call it - it was one language). Maybe people from Varna, let's say, would've found it difficult to understand people from Nish or Ohrid, but it's the same for people from Bavaria and Rur for example. The current state of affairs (the current situation in the world) and my affiliations to Cultural diversity and so on lead me to the point that it can be called a language. A mutually intelligible one, yes, a language with the same roots as ours and that was ours language in some point of time - yes, but at current it is a language. A new language with a late codification. And if it was me at the top governmental level, I'd accept the fact (not sure about the name, cause of everything with Greece you know), but only in exchange for some formal acknowledgments of history facts from the other side. I don't like the current state cause every time I talk to a Macedonian (from RoM) I get the impression he has lived in some sort of a happy bubble of his own till now. And I'm not really the type of person that likes destroying such bubbles. But that's another story.
Thank you for your recent edits to Greek minority in the Republic of Macedonia. While you did add edit summaries, they were not in English and are thus uninterpretable by the majority of English Wikipedia users. Please add edit summaries in English in the future on the English Wikipedia. Thanks! (EhJJ)TALK12:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Alex! I want to ask you about the article Ilinden-Proebrazhenie Upraising. Is there any chance to be split on two different articles, because the title is really confusing. If there is no possibility of splitting, than is there any possibility to be renamed the article into Ilinden or Preobrazhenie? regards--MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have proposed that just for one reason- the title to be clear enough, because two names are confusing for the readers that do not know about that uprising. That is all.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well no, you have proposed that just for one reason - to separate Ilinden from the (other) Bulgarian revolts and present it as an exclusively "Macedonian" affair. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 20:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Probably because you've never been taught that Ilinden was just one of a number of contemporaneous Orthodox Slav revolts against Ottoman rule. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've wrote about the bubble just in the section above. This is precisely the reason the article is as it is. --LaveolT20:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Ilinden was Slav uprising but you have said something else above. Never mind forget this conversation. I will talk with someone else about this topic, someone more appropriate for this article as it is BalkanFever.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How should I take the part about more appropriate? Is this another one of your jokes like on bg.wiki? A one appropriate is one who knows enough about the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie uprising, not about the so called Ilinden one. --LaveolT20:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello to everyone! First of all this is a user talk page and not Ilinden's talk page. I hate someone that answer without asking. --Raso mk (talk) 20:42, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Балкан, како е? Тука станува се потопло и потопло (значи логично кај вас би требало сега да заладува). Во врска со Илирида, јас се распрашував. Нема никаква публикација ниту истражување направено на таа тема. Сето тоа било само некакво озборување и демагогија. Така да штом нема материјална основа, не треба да има статија. Да статијата треба да се предложи за бришење. Јас во моментот правам детална ревизија на статијата за НОВ. Исто така ке вметнам и мал дел во статијата за Власите за нивното учество во НОВ (одредот Питу Гули формиран во 1942 е составен 70% од Власи). НОВ е важен за Влашкиот народ во Македонија и пошироко затоа што тоа е првпат некој нив да ги признае за официјален народ - само во Република Македонија Власите го учат мајчиниот си јазик. Поздрав. --Revizionist (talk) 07:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi ! Please take a look at the article about Mala Prespa i Golo Brdo and see the propaganda and the vandalism that Laveol is making constantly. regards --MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
kako mislis, i jas mislaf deka grcite ke se buneja, zato go prashaf onoj kekrops ako sakase so mene da rabotit. Ama ima mnogu makedonski stranici shto nema mnogu informacija, kako jazici vo makedonija, i drugi! taka je podobro, ama vo dialecti ot makedonskiot jazik treba poveke informacija PMK1 (talk) 14:07, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Alex. I'm responding to a post over at WQA regarding this post. As much as I love learning new curses in foreign languages, starting off a post with a string of invective usually tends to detract slightly from the weight of the following arguments. While Wikipedia isn't censored, cursing can be offensive, so it's usually better to avoid it if possible. Best, --Bfigura(talk)13:21, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why Toše should not be in the list of Ethnic Macedonians (because Laveol has deleted it and has written that you know better why)? Can you put Toše back or you want me to put it back? Regards --MacedonianBoy (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
gob dobi e postata shto te vratif??? Mnogo me dosadi za stranicata na makedonskite dialekti. Site saka da go smeni imeto, isto kako republika makedonija :)! anywaiz ive been trying to make the Dialects of the Macedonian language better but ive had no luck so far, ive only been able to the radozda,struga and a little on the bitola page. i dont know any more with which i can help with. thats all i guess from my end yourz?PMK1 (talk) 12:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
the plural suffix -ovi is often changed with the suffix -i: рибови > риби (ribovi > ribi/ fish); What he want to say with this sentence on Lower Prespa dialect? Such word as RIBOVI does not make sense? if it is that word on prespa dialect tell me to correct it. Reg --MacedonianBoy (talk) 15:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you take a look at the dispute on Bosniaks and its talk page? I ask you because you reverted the same anon that is involved in this dispute, on the South Slavs article. I mainly edit about contemporary politics when I edit about Balkan issues at all, so I'm not an expert on ethnic studies, but it seemed that those additions were very questionable, so I wanted another opinion. Academic Challenger (talk) 11:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please change it back to Kosovo. Yes they called it Kosova, just as they call Kosova now. But it was Kosovo in English then, as it is now. Follow my reasoning? Beam02:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure, because of the article location. It seems the name in English of that Republic was "Kosova" and this one is "Kosovo". BalkanFever02:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm almost 100% sure. I will do a quick search of CNN and what not. But it wouldn't make any sense for it to be Kosova in English then, and Kosovo in English now. In fact, even if they did call it Kosova back then, for the sake of sanity and continuation we should call it Kosovo now. Sound good? Oh fuck it, let's just have an edit war for shits and giggles!!! Beam03:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know! We have been having this for a looong time. Long before you came to the Wikipedia. Long before I came to the Wikipedia. And it keeps dragging on; on and on again, exposed by probably the very same user that either edits as an anon or keeps making new usernames.
We are creating consensus for sources which will be used in all articles related with Yugoslav Wars. It will be nice if you can vote on Talk:Serbs of Croatia.
Не е проблем пријател. Кога сакаш Ви стојам на располагање. Тоа важи за сите, без разлика на нација. Инаку преместување на страница се прави со стискање на табот "MOVE" и ти се отвора нов прозорец во кој ја ставаш новата содржина. Но може и да не успее ако некој администратор ја блокирал за преместување. поздрав. --Revizionist (talk) 15:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeh, gud it should be its only laveol against. Plus before wikipedia i have never heard of preobrajanie or whatever it is called! PMK1 (talk) 02:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello. When on the English-language Wikipedia, please always use English, no matter to whom you address your comments. This is so that comments may be comprehensible to the community at large. If the use of another language is unavoidable, please provide a translation of the comments. For more details, see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Thank you. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 07:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс, I have added some more commentary with a view to action on the Macedonian Latin alphabet. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. (→ Link) Cheers, AWN2 (talk) 09:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс! I must admit I am at a loss too! Good idea to get FP involved, I should probably also get MacedonianBoy involved – I could be wrong! Cheers, AWN2 (talk) 09:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Members of Yugoslav presidency have been: Bosnia and Herzegovina 1 member, Croatia 1 member, Kosovo 1 member, Macedonia 1 member, Montenegro 1 member, Serbia 1 member, Slovenia 1 member, Vojvodina 1 member. All in all 8. On 28 March Serbia has abolished autonomy of Vojvodina and Kosovo but members of presidency are not abolished so they have falled under Serbia control. Because of that Serbia is having 3 seats in presidency (de facto) and all others together are having 5--Rjecina (talk) 15:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
English translation: Im trying the best I can (making music related articles, improving..), but regarding the Macedonian project you mentioned, I have no experience with it yet --Dzole (talk) 23:47, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings dear BalkanFever,
It has been brought to my attention that you are unknowingly perhaps starting a edit-war on South Slavs section. I discourage this and do not wish to engage in aggressive editing with you.
However it is easy to see from your talk pages, that you are not likely to be considered a NPOW editor on the Balcans subjects, as you are accused of many things so far.
Suggest: You should remove emotions from Wikipedia and research for days perhaps before engaging in speedy reactions and so on, does this help?
Considering you've only been here for about a week, I don't think you can decide whether I am NPOV (V, not W) or "suggest" that I remove "emotions". I don't care at all if Bosniaks are Slavs or not, but you seem to think they're Germans. I don't need to explain anything that I've been accused of to you, either. If you say I'm "unknowingly" entering an edit war, then it means you're prepared to blindly revert, which wouldn't be advisable. And before you call me agressive, I would suggest you tone down your edit summaries. BalkanFever11:00, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you want to prove with such edits, but there's no place for such a note about Bosniaks in this section (and besides it sounds too OR). Further - are you sure you come from the Balkans - cause if you do you ought to know what Slavia means. --LaveolT10:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to prove anything, look I've added Dalmatians too, The difference between Slavs and South Slavs was almost ignored in the article, and it's a very brief and lacking article anyways. I suggest to add stuff to the article instead of removing rich content. The more points the better, especially if they are mentioned elsewhere in Wikipedia without opposition. Let me enlighten you on my ways: If I find something elsewhere in Wikipedia or another trusted source about South Slavs, then I'll mention it somewhere in brief in the South Slavs article. I also study a lot about DNA related subjects, so I'll mostly tend to focus on those about everyone, since I study the subject a lot, and I suggest you focus on edits relating to subjects you study alot, you should not mistake this for some kind of racism, as these days nobody really thinks Slavs are inferior or others are inferior. My edits are purely scientific related and aimed as such. Noonien Soong (talk) 11:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest you stop patronising me by making "suggestions". Wikipedia does not care whether you study something or not. You may as well be a construction worker, because original research is not allowed (see WP:NOR). WP only cares what reliable sources have to say. You didn't source any of you edits, therefore they can be removed. Learn to cite sources properly. BalkanFever11:50, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have no "Macedonian interests". Your proposed text is original research. You really do seem to be a useless POV pusher. Go away. BalkanFever13:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Look at my text, it's not POW because I pointed it to genetic page, look on that page at the #MAP part, my text just makes a distinction between Slavs and South Slavs, there is one, and origin is it. What do you hate about that? Noonien Soong (talk) 13:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah. Damn he's annoying. We just have to keep vigilant, becuase a lot of people put effort to make the Balkan/ Slav-related articles NPOV and of a decent quality, and he comes along with his utter nonsense. (And what it NPOW meant to be- non Prisoner of War ??)Hxseek (talk) 08:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't spent enough time there to understand what action they actually take with these things... But don't worry about Kosovo, it'll be fine. Not much has been going on in the past few days though, which is weird. I'll keep an eye out for anything suspect. You can just sit back and relax :) BalkanFever11:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
haha yeah. I got your back on that stuff. And I hope you laughed it up because that joke cost me my ban. The banning admin said he was going to go easy my ban considering the evidence until he read this talk page! lol, I suck at wikipedia. Beam15:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's crazy. This is a completely different issue (not even that, because it's a joke). Oh well, the Kosovo talk page is still quiet, so you're not missing anything. BalkanFever02:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah well....lol. I've asked him to investigate Husond now anyway. Husond is comparing me to Kosova2k8, saying that "Beam obviously hasn't learned his lesson" and that me and Kosova2k8 are similar. Anyway, you might enjoy his rant.
And yeah the article is quiet. Too quiet. It's kind of shady actually. I've been working on some Kosovo content on the economy and employment. It's actually pretty good stuff, if my ban doesn't get lifted soon I'd like to post it here and get your opinion. I'll talk to you later. Beam05:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy for you to post it here; or alternatively you could create your own sandbox: User:Beamathan/sandbox. Although it would probably be wise to ask Rudget if the topic ban prevents you from doing either of those things. Btw it's already been 5 days.... BalkanFever06:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. In the "macedonia naming dispute" article I've changed the sentence "According to the press in Skopje[74]" to "According to press in Macedonia[74]" in the "NATO and EU accession talks" section. But now, the footnote 74 still leads to a Greek news source. I found a Macedonian paper that published the proposal but I don't know how to put it as a footnote (and delete the previous one). I was wondering if you can help me with that. The link to the Maco paper is [9]Noompsy (talk) 23:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Basically, you modify a citation template (found here) to include the necessary info about the source (url, title, etc) and wrap it in a "ref" tag (see WP:FOOT), placing it after the text you are citing. BalkanFever05:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hy,I woud need some help from you?Do you think that SPUF is neutral administrator,or which one is???
I was in an edit war whit LAveol about article about Bulgarians,and there is litle census data about Bulgarians in the world,all sources are from Bulgarian foregin ministry,and they are in Bulgarian,also the info about Bulgarians in Albania is just an article from news paper!!
The official stance of Albnian govermant is that,there is no Bulgarian minorety in Albania!!!
Look at article and discussion page.Makedonij (talk) 10:03, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Are you intereset about reading the article of St.Climent of Ohrid???I thik that that aricle is controversal,and is showing only Bolgarian poit of veiw!Makedonij (talk) 09:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Not really; I don't have enough time to argue with everybody about everything, especially about the ethnic character of some 10th century saint. Have fun over there. BalkanFever09:42, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BULGARIANS,some info for you,maybe you will need it.NO BULGARIANS IN ALBANIA
Hi ,
Im sorry to bother you but I was wondering if you cold do me a favor
If you could please go to the albanian wikipedia and notify user Bet_0 at his talk page, tell him that I have been autoblocked and to deblock me (in english of course), I would post a message on my own talk page there but for some reason I cant edit it, I also sent him an email but who knows when he will check it, I would really appreciate it if you cold do that
Thanks a lot in advance --CD12:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The economy of Kosovo has been mostly affected by the Bosnian War and Kosovo War in the 90s, and recent political instability. Issues with infrastructure such as an unreliable electric grid impede economic process. That is not to say that there hasn't been any progress; in the city of Pristina there have been recent additions of new cafes and shopping malls supported by the youth of Kosovo. The unemployment rate is estimated at 50%. Currently Kosovo imports about $1,900,000,000 (USD) with exports only at $130,000,000 (USD), a net deficit of $1,770,000,000 (USD). With projected political stability and a continuing process of diplomatic relations with the West, the Kosovo economy is expected to benefit. Natural resources available in Kosovo include 14 billion tons of lignite coal reserves which in the future will be used to fuel a new power plant by the year 2012. Other resources, as British geologists found during a recent survey, include minerals such as deposits of nickel, lead, zinc cadmium, bauxite, and small amounts of gold.
The main area of attention regarding Kosovo's economy has been the infrastructure. According to the World Bank, with political stability and infrastructure improvement the energy sector will bring opportunity for economic advancement. With foreign investment creating jobs for the local population, especially the youth, both poverty and unemployment can be reduced. Also, agriculture has been looked into as another potential source for economic growth. Kosovo's neighbours, including Serbia, will play a significant role in future economics. Turkey, as of February 2008, has pledged greater economic ties. Turkey states that nearly 90% of consumer goods found in Kosovo are of Turkish origin, and with massive amounts of capital Kosovo can build a sound infrastructure. Serbia, followed by Macedonia and Turkey respectively, is Kosovo's biggest trading partner. Serbia will play a vital role in Kosovo's economy with both regions depending on each other for trade.
So you're just going to point out the fact I suck without making the changes to it? Pfffft, help me do it don't just point out I suck. Beam01:00, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A few improvements from me. The last part about Serbia is a bit weird though; considering they don't recognise Kosovo I don't think they will help the government or it's economy - except maybe the Serb areas... But I don't have any ideas of how to word any of that, or if any of that should be included. Your turn :D BalkanFever12:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers, ive added that user box to my page. Yeh my other box is funny lol. I edited it from a user boxer which user the cat and the dog has on his page [10]. I love the one i created haha Ijanderson977 (talk) 16:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I made an article about the newspaper Macedonian Voice and there I found one of the oldest designs for the flag of independant Macedonia.
This can be used in many Republic of Macedonia related articles that do with continuancy of our state. The same symbol of the sun occurs on the flag from 1914 as in all the consecutive flags. Greets. (Toci (talk) 14:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]
It looks like it's high time to start the discussion on the subject. I think a compromise of the sort - the map on the MK language article and the BG language articles to be removed. Both look sourced and both represent a POV - therefore I don't see why one should stand and the other - no. Your opinion? --LaveolT14:46, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm all for compromise, when it's needed. The background map of Bulgaria is definitely from the CIA, but the Bulgarian-speaking areas are Komita's WP:OR, not to mention POV-pushing. He couldn't even push it properly since the map cuts off half of Macedonia. Also, he seems to be lying about his language skills. I think we should try discuss before we revert each other - I don't mean this as an accusation or threat or anything, but things like this and Bulgar alphabet seem kind of weird... Maybe it's my inadequate edit summaries (tell me if it is) but the changes I see from some (other) Bulgarian users are a bit suss, and in my mind they obviously need to go, so I don't bother explaining in the summary. I don't doubt you have the same feeling with other (hopefully not me ;-)) Macedonian users. BalkanFever12:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol compromise is not showing all of macedonia as bulgarian speaking, while a small are in the petrich region is shown as macedonian. What kind of compromise is that. If anything the Map showing the petrich region is the compromise! Imagine if it showed all of pirin macedonia as macedonian speaking?! PMK1 (talk) 10:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I asked user:Filipgd over at mk wiki. But he, like Future, stated that the codex wouldn't have an actual name in OCS because it's just the surviving part of some book written back then. BalkanFever10:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thank you for the award. It's my first, unbelievable huh? Also, I'm sorry but I'm not available for the type of relationship i'm pretty sure you're looking for. But that doesn't mean we can't be friends! I do appreciate our friendship though, truly I do. It's nice to actually have an ally to stand by me. While we don't always agree on everything, I think that's part of what makes it work. See you around! Beam15:05, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have been suggested to contact you by kekrop, i think you know my case nothing unusual i assume....There was an overreaction by F.P at al I think ,we can make a deal , can you help??.. Dodona —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.246.122 (talk) 10:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in Australia - I wasn't able to vote; but it was a good song nonetheless. If Gaxha and co. made it through I would be giving you a Faleminderit :) BalkanFever11:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am new to Wikipedia...but I think you edited the content on the Nymfaio page....
I recently visited Nymfaio and had the opportunity to talk to the locals (my grandfather who is a registerd Macedonian fighter), and you deleted a completely true comment.
My questions are:
1) Have you ever visited Nymfaio or Neveska?
2) Do you have any information that I might not be aware of on Nymfaio
3) Your reasoning in deleting the statement regarding the local Vlachs fighting during the Macedonian Wars?
I think it will be kept, but I'm not going to bother voting anyway. Some are actually trying to de-POV it, but the obstinacy of one guy is quite obviously pissing them off. BalkanFever07:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aramgar (talk) has given you a Chrysobull! Chrysobulls promote Wikilove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Share the WikiLove and civility with everyone and keep up the excellent editing (hoc est :neutral poit of view)!
The thing is, there never actually seems to be a stable consensus. From what I've seen, something happens on an individual article once in a while, and it either goes to a productive discussion or just slow-motion revert warring. The discussions generally don't bring consensus, and if they do, it's as if it's only for that specific city/town. Turkish and Greek names is apparently the worst case. BalkanFever06:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Здраво Алекс – благодарам for the award! Always gratifying to get some recognition, although it's also nice to see the articles growing in number and quality! Благодарам, AWN AWN2 (talk) 02:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thankyou for reporting the abusive sockpuppeteer on the admins' noticeboard. A discussion has resulted in Bencherlite blocking all given IPs for 6 months. Initially I blocked them indefinately due to the severity of what the troll had used them for, but it was reviewed and 6 months is the result. I think that's the bst option at the end of it all however. Damage is avoided that way. Regards, Lradrama11:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have noticed your editing in this article :) Can you please look for velebit puppet which is deleting statement confirmed with NPOV internet links ([12] and [13]), and writing new statement confirmed by his obscure book. Thanks--Rjecina (talk) 14:30, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to remind you guys that this is an English Wikipedia and just because you made up your own special language doesn't mean you can use it. You've been warned. Beam02:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought about it, stop using words I don't understand. And before you say it, yes I know that's very limiting. Beam11:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Or you could just google any word you don't understand, thereby expanding your vocab. And I like getting new messages from you. Not anyone else though :D BalkanFever11:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A..., here is some info, which you could insert in article M..., you know that for me is forbiden, it is about peoples liveing in Belgium, please corect that number if you can, you can find the numbers here. Pozdrav --Makedonij (talk) 13:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
an opinion. The current map in the Kosova article is just plain POV. I have brought this issue up a long time ago when the Kosova article kept being re-written and I believe it was Beam who had the last word and put the map that is right now. These two maps that I want annexed in the article are 1. non-pov and 2.very useful
1.
2.
Tell me what you think, reply in my talkpage please.
Thank you for the advice until I noticed that it was showing up as Ari, LOL. I like the new one I will keep it as
Kosova2008 because it holds a special meaning to me. You of course can & may call me Ari. User:Kosova2008 (talk) 20:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Like this Kosova2008 (talk)[reply]
The article Kostas Novakis has been completely changed by 157.228.x.x into one which I can only argue as POV pushing (Revision history of Kostas Novakis). The current article has removed most Macedonian sources which shows he states his language is Macedonian, he is ethnic Macedonian and so on. I luckily have saved Macedonia related articles which I knew would be changed constantly, but I am banned from editing Macedonia related issues. You can easily compare the older version below to the current article to view it is in fact POV pushed. Since I cannot edit Macedonia related issues, please use this template to create an article which is fair and neutral. Please tell other Macedonians on Wikipedia to keep a watch on the article. Mactruth (talk) 23:11, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Greeks are deleting a discussion post in which I source irresponsible Greek behavior towards Macedonians based on the name issue. They are so afraid of people knowing the information they won't even allow it in the discussion page. Please use these sources and add appropriately to the Macedonia name issue and TELL OTHER MACEDONIANS TO HELPMactruth (talk) 23:46, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
kako si? gud?
I was just wondering would you be able to do a little article about the Macedonians of Melbourne here? I would do it myself but i am not familiar enough with the melbourne macedonian community. Also some good images would help if you have any? Thanks, caoPMK1 (talk) 09:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Vistinskata uloga na farmacevtot se sostoi vo poznavaweto na sigurnata i racionalna farmakoterapija. Dobivaweto na informacii za lekovite, obezbeduvawe na informacii, kako za javnosta, taka i za zdravstvenite rabotnici od site nivoa na zdravstvenata za{tita, pretstavuva edna od osnovnite profesionalni odgovornosti na farmacevtite. Informaciite za lekovite mo`at da bidat nameneti za posebni pacienti kako integralen del od farmacevtskata gri`a ili za ostanatata populacija so cel da doprinesat vo donesuvaweto odluki za racionalna farmakoterapija i vo evaluiraweto na upotreba na lekot.
Za obezbeduvawe na relevantni, efikasni informacii farmacevtite treba da gi procenuvaat potrebite za farmakoinformacii od strana na pacientite i zdravstvenite rabotnici, da koristat sistemski priod vo upatuvaweto na potrebata za farmakoinformacii dobieni so efektivno procenuvawe na literaturata i soodvetno komunicirawe. Najdobar na~in da se vovede racionalna terapija e preku organizirana informaciska mre`a, koja kontinuiranno sobira, ~uva, ocenuva i komunicira so pogodna informacija za lekovite.
Farmacevstkata gri`a e definirana kako: odgovorna merka za farmakoterapijata so cel
da se postigne rezultat koj }e go podobri `ivotniot pat na pacientite.
Enormniot porast na lekovi i informaciite za nesakani dejstva i interakcii nalo`uva lekarot
i drugite zdravstveni rabotnici da bidat vo tek so najnovite slu~uvawa za da odgovorat na
potrebite na svoite pacienti i kako rezultat na toa se javuva potrebata za postoewe na visoka profesionalna institucija, koja }e vr{i analizirawe, evaluirawe, integrirawe
i distribuirawe na informaciite za lekovite i farmakoterapijata.
Farmakoinformativniot centar pretstavuva visoko profesionalen servis
na zdravstvenite rabotnici od primarnata, sekundarnata i terciernata
zdravstvena za{tita i ima za cel obezbeduvawe objektivni informacii za lekovite.
Finansiraweto na farmakoinformativnite centri mo`e da bide od vladini izvori, od donatori, profesionalni asocijacii, univerzitetski institucii, farmacevstki institucii i
drugi organizacii. Specifi~nite dol`nosti {to gi ima rakovodnoto lice se:
ovlastivawe i odobruvawe na planovite i procedurite, obezbeduvawe razvojni programi za personalot, obezbeduvawe klini~ka poddr{ka na personalot, u~estvo vo aktivnostite za evaluirawe na kvalitetot na rabotata, odr`uvawe na vrski so drugi FIC, klini~ki centri i drugi
zdravstveni institucii, unapreduvawe na istra`uva~kite aktivnosti,
koordinacija na profesionalna edukaciija i drugo. Drugiot personal
treba da obezbedi racionalna i efektivna raspredelba na vremenskite barawa vo centarot.
Va`en element za FIC e sistemot na evaluacija na rabotata,
koj treba da bide sistematiziran i efikasen, a toj treba da bide objektiven,
tekoven i baziran vrz klu~nite odgovornosti vo rabotata.
Aktuelnite planovi i proceduri zavisat od opsegot na uslugite. Tie se podeleni na:
- Administrativen (nabavka i odr`uvawe na sredstvata, nabavka na finansiski sredstva, obuka i anga`irawe na personal, reklama i kontrola na kvalitetot).
- Profesionalni (primawe poraki i odgovor na poraki, profesionalna edukacija, izdavawe bro{uri, kontrola na istra`uva~ka upotreba na lekovi, razgleduvawe na izve{taite za kontraindikacii).
Aktivnostite na FIC mo`e da se podelat na tri op{ti grupi: uslu`na dejnost, edukacija i istra`uvawe.
1.Vo uslu`na dejnost spa|aat: odgovarawe na pra{awa, evaluacija na promotivniot i klini~ki ispituvaniot materijal, izdavawe publikacii.
a) Odgovaraweto na pra{awa pretstavuva integralen del od sekojdnevnata rutina na farmacevtite. Tie objektivno ja procenuvaat i primenuvaat informacijata od literaturata i pri toa vnnimatelno go razgleduvaat eti~kiot i zakonskiot aspekt na odgovorot na baraweto. Pri odgovarawe se davaat informacii i soveti, zemaj}i gi vo predvid simptomite na bolesta, doziraweto, farmakogenetikata na lekot, indikaciite, nesakanite efekti, interakciite i kontraindikaciite. Celta e da se obezbedi to~no i jasno prezentirawe na odgovorot. Za na~inot na prezentacija na odgovorot bitno e da se znae za koj auditorium e namenet. Pri podgotovka na odgovorot, farmakoinformati~arot gi evaluira informaciite spored:
- relevantnosta na pra{alnikot;
- kvalitetot na podatocite;
- relevantnosta na pobaruva~ot.
Barawata i odgovorite na pacientot se dokumentirani vo medicinsko dosie.
b) Evaluacija na promotivniot i klini~ki ispituvaniot materijal. Farmakoinformati~arite treba da ja utvrdat va`nosta i preciznosta na srodnite podatoci za lekovi, koi poteknuvaat od reklamnite materijali i klini~ki ispituvanite dokumenti.
c) Izdavawa na publikacii. Ovaa aktivnost se sostoi vo evaluirawe i distribucija na informacii za primena na lekovite vo terapija, vklu~uvaj}i ja efikasnosta, sigurnosta i terapevtskata uloga. So ovaa aktivnost centrite se naso~eni:
- kon evaluacija na novi registrirani preparati;
- promovirawe na principi za racionalno prepi{uvawe na lekovite;
- sledewe na odnosot pome|u efikasnosta na lekovite i nivnata cel;
- voveduvawe i primena na esencijalna i bolni~ka lista lekovi;
- voveduvawe na drugi prioritetni listi na lekovi i standardni terapevtski vodi~i.
Publikaciite }e bidat poefikasni ako gi sledat principite: da bidat orientirani kon odredena cel, da se naglasuvaat i povtoruvaat klu~nite poraki, da se osvoi vnimanieto so naslovite i ilustraciite, da bidat relevantni, da ne se koristat za komercijalni celi.
2. Edukativna dejnost. Treba da se obezbedat programi za obuka i edukacija, koi }e gi zgolemat sposobnostite na personal za komunikacija, pronao|awe informacii, sobirawe podatoci i precizno razmisluvawe. Celite se dvonamenski:
a) Da se obezbedi obuka za studentite po farmacija za podobruvawe na osnovnite sposobnosti za farmakoinformatikata, za da mo`e da funkcioniraat kako efektivni izvori i konsultanti za lekovi.
b) Da se obezbedi mesto kade {to }e se obu~uvaat zdravstvenite rabotnici.
Centrite treba da imaat nose~ka struktura, a celiot personal treba da stekne temelna obuka vo oblastite: patofiziologija, farmakoinformatika, klini~ka farmakologija i drugo, so {to bi se zgolemile nivnite informativni sposobnosti.
3. Istra`uva~ka dejnost. Stru~nata i profesionalnata naso~enost ovozmo`uva da se dadat verodostojni informacii za lekot i racionalna farmakoterapija. Racionalnata farmakoterapija bara kvantitativna procenka i kriti~na ocenka za dejstvoto na lekot. Za toa neophodno e da se znaat osnovnite mehanizmi za dejstvoto na lekot i faktori koi vlijaat na sudbinata na lekot vo organizmot. Zada~ata za istra`uvawe e da se dade kreativen pridones vo oblastite na informativnata praktika za lekovi, vo razvojot na politikata za lekovi i vo medicinskiot kriterium. Mo`e da utvrdime deka farmakoinformativnite centri se efikasni sistemi za koordinirano obezbeduvawe i selektirawe na informaciite za lekovi. So napredokot na FIC se dobivaat klini~ki relevantni, sovremeni, nezavisni, bezpredrasudni informacii. Farmacevtite denes moraat da poseduvaat znaewa koi baraat integrirawe na informaciite i iskustvata za nega na pacintite so {to se ovozmo`uva donesuvawe na kompetentni odluki za pacientot.
Farmakoepidemiologija
Kako eden od centralnite javno - zdravstveni metodi, epidemiologijata moze da se smeta
kako naucen pristap (metod) za studiranje ili analiza na bolestite na lugeto i voopsto zdravstvenite problemi.
epidemiologijata gi koristi
- naucnite metodi
- specificni postapki za numericka evaluacija i observacija na bolestite i risicite
po zdravjeto
- za razlika od klinickata medicina i farmacija (prostap kon poedinecot - pacientot), premet na observacija se opsti ili specificni populacioni grupi
Vo farmacijata - epidemiologijata gi koristi ovie metodi za analiza na pojavata i distribucijata
na upotrebata na lekovite i so toa vrzanite problemi (primena i vo analiza na efektite na lekovite, klinickite testiranja i dr.).
Epidemiolozite gi kategoriziraat bolestite ili upotrebata na lekovite po: vreme, mesto i lica
(dali edna bolest ili pojava se menuva vo odredeno vreme i na odredeno mesto kaj odredena populacija), kako edna sostojba - bolest se menuca so cel da se vospostavi mehanizam za nejzina prevencija i kontrola.
Farmakoepidemiologijata razviva koncepti i metodi za procena na upotrebata na lekovite
(identifikacija na potencijalnite ili utvrdenite rizici pri toa).
novata uloga na farmacijata e da gi unapredi sposobnostite i mehanizmite na zaednicata
za upotreba na lekovite na optimalen nacin i vo prodolzenie da spreci ili ogranici pojava na
nesakani efekti od lekovite.
epidemioloskiot metod vo Farmakoepidemiologijata ovozmozuva teoriska osnova za ispituvanje na izvorite za snabduvanje so lekovi, dvizenjeto na lekovite niz populacijata, kako i efektite na
poedinci pri upotreba na tie lekovi, a vo ponovo vreme i nelegalnata upotreba i zloupotreba na lekovi, ili lekovite kako mozni predizvikuvaci na bolesti.
Farmakoepidemiologijata vo praksa e orientirana kon istrazuvanje na izvorot, difuzijata,
upotrebata i efektite na lekovite kaj populacijata, kako i frekvencijata i
rasprostranetosta na resulatite od taa upotreba.
Predmet na interes e:
- sto e toa sto se upotrebuva ( koj tip na lek i vo koj slucaj)
- kako se upotrebuva (procena na nacinot na upotreba, bklucuvajki kolku,
kade i koga, i od kogo)
- zosto se upotrebuva (analiza na pricinite za upotreba na lekovi ulogata na lkeovite vo opstestvoto)
- procenka na potrebite od lekovi - soglasno so voobicaenata struktura
na bolesti i epidemii
- planiranje na selekcija, snabduvanje i distribucija na lekovi
Hi, thanks for the heads up. I just lost my first message in an edit conflict with my good friend Husond. Yes the language looked almost like Croatian with what looked like ALbanian in some places, Macedonian would make perfect sense. I fully support articles if they can be translated and contain useful content, anything which can be done to improve this is a major asset. I've noticed you around a lot on Maceodnian and Balkan related articles, and I have to say I think you are doing a magnificent job. Sometimes some of the articles are surprisingly well developed which is the beauty of having native speakers on board!! Keep up the good work. I;ve added a few Macedonian monasteries myself but coould do a lot more if I understood the languages! Best regards ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦$1,000,000?12:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
LOL yes. I try to do the best - I can admittedly I blow hot and cold over wikipedia from time to time and there are times when I think it is a wonderful and other times when I wonder why I bother, but seeing the way it has developed over the years and how much potential it has keeps me going!! Regards ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦$1,000,000?09:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol is constantly violating the three-revert rule with taking out the "Ilinden Uprising flag" out of the list. What shall I do? Pozdrav. Cukiger (talk) 22:28, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The elections are finished and the number of people that are chosen is known. There are still some small number of places where the elections will be held again but it is not important at all. The main election process is over. Regards --MacedonianBoy (talk) 09:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Widely regarded as the media's foremost NHL draft expert, Bob McKenzie knows the Stamkos family personally and mentions Steve's nationality in this clip. He says that Steve Stamkos is the first Macedonian Canadian since fellow Macedonian Ed Jovanovski to go first over all. He also states Mike Zigomanis is Macedonian Canadian
Please use English
