User talk:Bakermannn/Archive 2

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Alex

Alexsandro de Souza also appears to have reached 1,000 matches, based on a post from ESPN (link here), and since then appeared in 31 more matches for Curitiba (based on his oGol profile) so the total for senior matches would go to 1,030, for which there is a ref, so the point is if we can trust ESPN, as there are some differences from oGol. What is your feedback/opinion/input here? Do you think ESPN includes friendlies? For instance, while it doesn't appear he played for Parma (0 league matches in NFT and 0 matches in oGol), that post has him with 5 matches, but he could have well played, e.g., 5 matches in the Primavera, and he has 32 more matches for Fenerbahçe, but the point is that it doesn't seem to include friendlies, because of the numbers for Brazilian teams being either the same or having very small deviations, i.e. normal deviations, ones that could be justifiable: for instance, if you see those 205 for Curitiba by detail, you will see all listed by tournament (Serie A, Paranaense, et c.), and none being in a not defined tournament --> if ESPN and the Turkish ref included friendlies, they would certainly have more matches for Curitiba, as it would be a miracle if he didn't play one single friendly match in 5+ years there. Could the post not include friendlies for the Brazilian teams, but does so for Parma and Fenerbahçe? What do you say? By the way, even if we consider it includes friendlies for the European teams and official only for Brazilian ones, i.e. 37 fewer, we still have 2 more games for Cruzeiro from oGol (these are also well-listed, by tournament, unless there is somewhere a mistake, as Alex is a common name) and 4 for Brazil U20, so the total is 999, but you can see 8 more matches for U20/Youth and 5 for U21 on 11v11, so 1,012, and even with 231 matches for Palmeiras (oGol) instead of 241 (ESPN), the total is 1,002, and 1,000 with 2 fewer matches for Cruzeiro. In addition, he has 2 more matches for Brazil in oGol, so 1,002, if those are confirmed by other sources: if not, he still has 1,000. Also, assuming his trophies in WP are correct, he may also have matches for Brazil U17.

P.S. Because of the keyboard having produced a mind of its own, this took like ages to be made, I was actually initially going to make a section Roberto Carlos & Alex.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:49, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

To sum up, and because the keyboard doesn't let me expand unless it takes ages:

Curitiba 205

Fenerbahçe 344 (Yes, I agree, they definitely have totals for Fenerbahçe, most likely for both European teams he played)

Cruzeiro 118 (+5 in oGol --> maybe Cruzeiropedia makes a mistake here, because, as I said before, like Curitiba, the 123 are listed by tournament name, i.e. there aren't 5 with a not defined competition)

Palmeiras 229 (73), based on Verdazzo, (+2 could well be for the B team, but also the matches here are by tournament name in oGol)

Parma 0 (unless we find a ref of playing with the B team)

Flamengo 12

Brazil 49 definitely (there may be 51, by oGol, which also lists the matches)

Brazil U23 19 (by ESPN, which I believe is accurate, and we also include international friendlies after all --> 11v11 has 13 matches, but they don't include the friendlies with U23 teams, and, taken into account that he played in three different eras, 6 matches in friendlies make sense, especially because Brazil U23 plays 2 friendly matches before play-offs/normal tournaments)

Brazil U21 5 (11v11)

Brazil U20 12 (11v11)

Brazil U17  ?

Total 993 (but +5 for Cruzeiro, +2 for Palmeiras and +2 for Brazil = 1,002, also we must search for Brazil U17, as he may have matches there as well)

What do you think?

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:15, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I must also add that I know nothing of other tournaments that he could have amassed 31 more official matches in Turkey, and it's a number he couldn't have achieved with B teams, unless there were long periods of recoveries after injuries, but the deviations for the Brazilian teams are credible; could have been with B teams or in matches missing from Cruzeiropedia and Verdazzo.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:25, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, in the first match it was Alex Antônio de Melo Santos instead of him: the match can be found entirely here, where he is visible instead of Alexsandro de Souza, at time 0:40+, and by shirt number (6).

In the third match it's not Alexandro Vieira Xavier, but Alex Antônio de Melo Santos again: match entirely here, where he can be seen around 9:10, and at the beginning with the shirt number (6).

As soon as I find extra info for the 2nd in question match, I will give an update...

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 01:45, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

As when there are no matches detailed, where the total could have come from a reliable document of totals for official matches and detailed some matches are missing, it's hard to prove whether he played or not (in which match/es?), which could be B team matches, I am focusing more on finding info regarding the match left from Cruzeiro; if he didn't play there, then the total could go 999 (993+6 possibly more) and also want to search the extra 2 matches for Brazil, where if there are 2 matches more by mistake, it would be 997 and, combined with no info for a Brazil U17 (until now), I would agree of not adding him on the list (it would seem he was close to 1,000, but didn't reach it).

P.S. The trophy he has for a Brazil U17 is only on his English WP bio-article, not on other WPs...

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 08:59, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Game 1: There is this, which shows he didn't play in that game (a match report from that date: just for information, as it's not the case here, if there is no date, in most of the times the [view-source:http://www.cruzeiro.org/ft-min03-rbr-cru.php page's source code] shows the time it was posted/published-created).

Game 2: There is this, which shows he didn't play in that game (blogspot, but match sheet/log SS).

However, I want to check matches that are listed in oGol, as not playing in them would be definite that he hasn't reached 1,000 games.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:35, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

So, as listed matches not played would definitely mean he hasn't reached the threshold, I started looking at his numbers for Brazil, and I found out that oGol and NFT are missing a match for Brazil that 11v11 has, a friendly against Korea in 1999 (28 March 1999), but, if you see the lineups, you will see that Korea made 6 substitutes on that game and, as FIFA limit's in friendlies is 5 (as far as I know), that game doesn't count as A level by FIFA, but it does as B, and should have been included by NFT as non-FIFA; anyway, it is still an international match, and also I am pretty sure that's the B match for Brazil in FootballDatabase, so it's actually +1 for Brazil. Then I found out this match exists in Footballia, and I go there (direct link here) and see the change says Alessandro, which leads to Alessandro "Cambalhota" Andrade de Oliveira instead of the Alex in question (in Wikipedia says he played for Brazil once in 1999); as he came as a substitute in 65' you can see him from minute 1:09:55 and after (shirt number 20), where about 40 seconds are enough to understand it was Alessandro Cambalhota who played there, so not +1 for Brazil. However, if you go to that match on FootballDatabase, you won't see Alex, so that +1 match for Brazil B is for another match, but that match is against Catalonia, i.e. not a proper national team, so it can be "disqualified". Then oGol includes 3 matches (11v11 only two of those 3) in the 2003 CONCACAF Gold Cup, but WP has yet another Alex in the squad, and this is in agreement with match reports (two from CONCACAF and one from WorldFootball): Alex Rodrigo --> Mexico 1–0 Brazil --> Brazil 2–1 Honduras --> Colombia 0–2 Brazil (here it's a link from WorldFootball). In addition, those matches aren't in NFT. Then the first page of oGol for Brazil (his last 20 matches for Brazil) is in agreement with NFT, even though 11v11 is missing several matches (doesn't have them at all).

Thus, so far we have 3 matches fewer for Brazil, 2 matches fewer for Cruzeiro, so 997 instead of 1,002.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Regarding that third match in which he is listed on oGol, but not in Cruzeiropedia, I couldn't find something to either confirm the former or the latter (in videos, news, databases, photos, et c.), but I found out he can't have won the trophies the English WP had him credited with, since he doesn't appear to have been on the selections and I didn't find any matches for Brazil U17, so I think it's conclusive we shouldn't add him on the list, do you agree?

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:58, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Of course, I'll have it in mind if other info appears...

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Neville Southall

Hello!

While you can see here one more international cap (so the tally could be made 997 instead of 996), probably that's a later cancelled game by the way, since his matches with the national team in details (see RSSSF here, sporting-heroes.net here and NFT here) are not mentioning anything about that, I highly doubt he ever played for a youth national team of Wales. If he did, I am pretty sure in the 21st century it wouldn't be hard to be traced. Even for very old players (for instance, Hungarians and Austrians in the 20s-40s, and even for older ones, i.e. such as the UK players in the 19th century, or Argentinean and Uruguayan ones from the 19th century – I am referring to them because the football of Uruguay and Argentina, introduced by Britishmen, dates very back), the stats in national teams can be traced digitally or are known by other media. The problems do appear in club numbers, especially when you have to deal with numbers from defunct clubs, from defunct FAs (from countries that don't exist anymore), et c. Here, where you can again see 93 matches with Wales senior instead of 92, mentions "Welsh International: Full and U-21" in the description, which could mean/could be interpreted he had been a part of the U-21 national team, but it gives no other information: that itself isn't enough to claim he made an appearance for the U-21 national team, but only that he may had been in one or more call-ups/selections of the Wales U-21. Also, famous DBs (such as WorldFootball.net and playmakerStats), which cover extensively much of his career, do not have anything about youth Wales national teams. Additionally, even though here says he is one of the few players that can boast of having over 1,000 caps, it must include friendlies/totall numbers, as the other players mentioned along don't appear to have 1,000 official matches, but they do if friendlies are included. Now, to sum up, while he may have been part of a U-21 Wales, I am certain he didn't play in any of their matches, because of information lacking to claim otherwise. Finally, when it comes to numbers with national teams, you could always email the according FA for extra confirmation. In this case, the email is info@faw.co.uk (found from the respective FA's website). They should be able to provide international stats, the stats for youth Wales national teams.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello again!

While I don't believe Neville Southall to have played other matches for Wales (or at least ones that are recorded), including national teams of the lowest ages (i.e., even Welsh Schoolboys, the U16 and U15 national teams), I do believe he may have other official senior matches played in clubs that are missing from those 996, which could raise the 996 to 1,000 or more... if you see the infobox on his bio article (direct link here), where his stats are composed by ENFA's data, you will find out he had played for three Welsh clubs prior to playing to English clubs, and on ENFA, like the reserves-B teams matches, don't have data about the Welsh competitions or the lower English leagues (where most Welsh clubs play, if they don't play in a Welsh league), so I believe I may find some matches there (either in the lower English league or the Welsh league those clubs were playing at the time and/or in Welsh cups, as, even though he was youth in those clubs, it's very possible to have been tested on a cup match or even a league match). In addition, apart from his beginning years, it's also very possible that he has matches missing from his ending years, because he played in 6 clubs at the end, of which there is only the league appearances total of only one of them in the infobox (direct link for his SoccerBase profile here, where the missing data could indicate possible missing matches – if it was confirmed he didn't play matches, the values would have been zeros, like them for Winsford Utd). I will re-look his case later, whenever I will have time, but, having those described before in mind, if you wish to search for more matches he played, I think you have some directions what to look for.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Neville Southall has definitely played in more than 4 matches for Winsford United (he has 996 matches since Bury and after), as he had helped them win the cup and was also voted player of the season (there are many references to corroborate this info), and would be weird to have a player of the season without at least a 2-digit number of official appearances, but the point is if we can find references and good references for at least 4 matches, so to be able to add him on the list, which must be done separately (even from sites of opponent clubs, if those exist), as there doesn't seem to be an active site for that club.

By the way, you can see here in "History" (fifth tab from the left) 1 match (the final of the 1980 Cheshire Senior Cup), in the description of their history, so it's actually 3 more games needed.

Also, some opponents in the season he played can be seen here, if it helps to trace him on matches against them, in case there are references for them, because we are talking, unfortunately, about a very low category here...

P.S. On an article from ToffeeWeb, which is an Everton-related site, about him (direct link here), I see in one of the comments below the article the following:

"I saw Neville play for Winsford against Chorley in March 1980. Winsford at the time were 2nd in the Cheshire League, Chorley third. Neville had missed just one in 42 games that season. From memory, he let in four that day, so I didn't exactly have him marked for a future Goodison legend. I still have the programme, and have just noticed it was 37 years ago yesterday! It was also George Rooney's first game in charge, according to the programme notes."

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

By the way, you can see league opponents in 1979–80 Cheshire County Football League and 1980–81 Cheshire County Football League, if you wish to search for references for 3 more matches he played... by experience, I believe there may be good support for at least 3 matches, because Winsford United is an English club, not Scottish or Welsh, so I believe somewhere there will be data for that low league, or separately 3 matches...

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Zé Roberto

Hello!

TOPIC 1 – As it is about Spanish stats, I agree with changing it to 21, based on BDFutbol and BeSoccer, but I haven't done so as I am still looking for references for 3 more matches. If I find none, it will be done 21. Even oGol lists 21, while they have 24 as a total. At the moment, I have found nothing to indicate more than 21.

TOPIC 2 – Based on the sources at the moment, what oGol has and what other sites have (NFT & FootballDatabase), seems they are talking about other matches, i.e. I understand it's about 14 (1) matches in the league and 12 (8) other, i.e. there clearly cannot be an overlap, so, based on the sources, the correct one seemingly is 26 (9), but I am still looking for other references, on a language I don't know (Arabian), where I also have found nothing. By the way, there is a dead official site about Al-Gharafa, and there is nothing relative found on archived links.

P.S. I currently have a problem with the keyboard, which currently works by itself, specifically deletes part of what I write, so, as that on Seaman is a long response, I couldn't manage to respond, but I will as soon as I manage to solve this issue: in a nutshell, I trust more oGol than that site, but I will explain why as soon as possible.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 05:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

TOPIC 1 – I have made it 21. Now, from what I understand, as Real Madrid B is well-documented, and I don't recall or find any regional official tournaments in Madrid at the time he played for Real Madrid, the only way he has played 3 more matches is if he played with Real Madrid C, which is not well-documented, but I found nothing relative.

TOPIC 2 – Still nothing here, but I believe 26 (10) to be correct, i.e. seems oGol has a document of matches in cups and NFT one for the league, as we are talking about a country that has every year 5 cups. What do you say about this?

P.S. I: That he passed 1,000 games is also on an article from CONMEBOL.

P.S. II: By the way, I will make the change-reduction to Seaman as soon as possible, as I am currently facing technical difficulties again...

Cheers!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:05, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, it seems you are right that he has more matches... while it's not uncommon to not have played in the Paulista in those seasons, i.e. he could have started playing for Portuguesa after the 1994 Paulista, which ended in May 1994 and he is listed on oGol with a first match in August 1994 and also in 1995 he could have not been on the squad signed for the Paulista (Brazilian clubs have like 60-70 team A players and excluding players from one tournament, but not another in the season/year is not uncommon, sometimes it's intentional if it's combined with other factors, e.g. an early/old for football age and/or an injury), I did find this article which says he played, so it needs further looking... perhaps we can add some matches in 1994 Paulista and 1995 Paulista, if not all...

By the way, do you know any good sites for stats for old players of Portuguesa?

I will try to find more matches in 1994 and in 1995...

Thanks!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, I agree, i.e. it makes sense the matches of Paulista to be there, but 13 friendlies in a year is too much in 2007 for a Brazilian club. Also, while that site seems decent, I don't think we should exclude that they have matches missing: for instance, you say "...I can only see that Santos played in Paulista, Serie A and Libert....", so Santos didn't play at least 1 match in Copa do Brasil that season? That is super weird, unless there was a ban. Also, Sao Paulo (one of the greatest, in number of population, states in Brazil) and Southeast Brazil don't have any regional cups? In addition, AcervoSantista, which includes also friendlies and claims to include all the matches of Santos, includes only one friendly in 2007, which doesn't seem right at all, i.e. while no Brazilian club plays 13 friendlies in 2007, also no club plays only one friendly in a year, as that would be very compromising for the footballers, which shows again that site is missing matches. So, bottom line, even though they may have friendlies included there (in the extra 13), we can't exclude the fact of also not having friendlies, and, assuming there are also friendlies in them, removing 13 matches (which then could be something like 8 official + 5 friendlies or 9 officials + 4 friendlies, et c.) is better be kept as it is, i.e. the harm of having like 8 official matches fewer in the total seems bigger in quantity than the harm of having included 5 more matches in friendlies in the total. What do you say?

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 13:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, there could be other official matches because 13 in friendlies is too much, but the same could be said for the official matches as well, especially without matches for Copa do Brasil, so there are most likely friendlies included in those 13, but it would be a gaffe to exclude all of them, i.e. I think it's better the way it is, so we keep it that way until other info surfaces... however, it must be said there are a couple of publications where he is credited with 48 (12): check this, this and this (Zé Roberto Oficial), but that last site has mistakes and only complicates things (for instance, there are Qatari league sources that can confirm 14 matches and 1 goal in them for Al-Gharafa, and that's only his numbers in the league, i.e. not 9 goals in 14 matches, also Gremiopedia gives 119 matches for Gremio, not 118, and he had 61 matches for Portuguesa only in Serie A, not overall, et c.), and the publications could have copied that site (also, what footballers and their official site claim about their stats are of no relevance because there is a conflict of interest): by the way, in Portuguese WP he is with 48 for Santos, but with 14 goals, not that this means anything by itself alone, as it is a "pedia" site.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

There is only one site I know which is most related-affiliated to Portuguesa which has been proven to be reliable (had been previously used to Djalma Santos), even though it's a blogspot, but it doesn't say anything about the number of matches he played for Portuguesa (link here about his bio-article there, in the "Orgulho de ser Lusa !!!" Lusa legends series), however it says that Zé Roberto initially played for Real Madrid B as Real had already reached the threshold of foreign players, so maybe the 24 matches for Real instead of 21 (of only A team matches) is right after all?

Now, regarding his numbers for Portuguesa, I have found this article from their site, which says he played in 132 matches with their shirt, so a difference of 43 from 89, which should be his matches in 1994 (30 rounds) and 1995 Paulista championships (30 first phase + 6 final phase rounds), i.e. he played in 43 matches out of 66 available ones (which is a respectable/credible/logical amount); however, we don't know if that total includes friendlies (they easily could, as well as couldn't), but, if we can't find other info that claims that he played in fewer than 43 matches, I think we should add 43 in the total, do you agree?

P.S. Tell me also your opinion on Real Madrid; 24 instead of 21 works fine for me, which eventually seems to be B team matches not documented.

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:38, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

João Moutinho

Hello!

Yes, I am aware he is nearing, but I think we should/could wait until he is 998 before adding him on the list...

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Well, I cannot find anything good (better) to support either 27 or 30, but, as NFT by default is sparing and as he happens to be European (oGol is usually more accurate for non-Europeans), I am pretty sure 30 is accurate, besides it's a logical number for a player who played in the most matches of the season (the keeper had 37: see link here). Also, I doubt there is any better than NFT source to confirm either 27 or 30...

A couple of sites with 30:

https://www.zimbio.com/Joao+Moutinho (it says "this content is based on data from multiple web sources...", but looks like a WP copy n' paste, with the errors of the time made, e.g. 155 for Monaco)

https://sportmob.com/en/article/953032-Joao-Moutinho-Biography (seems thorough)

P.S. Link for all numbers with Portugal national teams: https://www.fpf.pt/pt/Jogadores/Jogador/playerId/560742

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Additionally, there is also another reason why 30 looks normal, and that is that NFT has CR7 for Sporting B with 2 matches (who obviously was promoted very quickly and young to the A team and didn't play in more): with CR7's immense fan club and frenzy, if they allowed tampering or cheating, I think we would have CR7 there with more than 2 matches for Sporting Lisboa B, i.e. the integrity of NFT.

Best regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 09:14, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Just a heads-up: one more match and he can be added (as hidden) on the list... by the way, his club numbers (except Sporting B) can be also crossed-verified by IFFHS (link here).

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 07:41, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Just informing he has played 998 matches and I will add him hided on the list as soon as possible.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

His BeSoccer profile has 6 more matches with the shirt of Portugal: a total of 23 for Portugal U21 instead of 17, but they list only 17, the same as FPF, though the nature of the games could imply there are more, as there is only one friendly match in those 17... could the total be 23, but 6 matches in friendlies are not listed? What do you reckon about this? (unless BeSoccer lists extra matches in which he was part of the squad, but wasn't used, as there is that possibility as well) Also, they have a total of 16 for Portugal U17 instead of 15, but a match on 17 May 2003 is listed twice (both as friendly and Euro U17).

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

What do you say about these possible extra matches for Portugal U21? By experience, when someone has 16 official matches with the U21 national team, having also 7 friendly matches looks "more normal" than having played only 1 friendly match (I mean if you place 1 or 2 friendly matches before the official ones, which is what normally happens). In addition, is BeSoccer prone to mistakes? How much can we trust it for Portuguese players? As a Spanish site, I, for one, expect it to be mainly reliable not only for Spanish players, but also for Portuguese ones.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 15:23, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

First, I don't think there is a case of FIFA and non-FIFA friendlies here, as the same rules that apply for the senior national team don't apply for the U-x national teams, which by default/definition are B, C teams et c.; for example, look at how many substitutes are on this match (included in FPF's site), which wouldn't be a FIFA (A-level) match if it was about the senior national team (I believe the only matches of the U-x level not included would be if they weren't 90 minutes matches, i.e. sometimes there are friendlies of 45' or 80', or when they are against clubs or not proper national teams), but at the moment in lack of other info to support more matches and because indeed the more gravity should be given to FPF (Portugal's Football Federation) site, I agree with you, we can only add those extra matches as '+' to the total unless we have other info to support more matches, even though I think he most likely has more matches played there. It must be also said BeSoccer doesn't seem to make such mistakes, except for double records. For instance, CR7 numbers there, who also played many U-x matches, totally agree with FPF's numbers, and also the same stands for Moutinho's (without the obvious double record mistake), except his U-21 numbers.

Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 10:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Robbie James

Hello!

Yes, you are right, but I am thinking he has a couple of games played more, based on this, which is based on references from books and so, unfortunately, we cannot verify it. Now, I couldn't find 68 somewhere as a total online (neither 66 though), but it is likely he played 2 more matches because there are a couple of other Welsh cup competitions he could have played, because the lists of matches only include the Welsh Cup from the Welsh competitions (there are also some league competitions in the South Wales, but Cardiff City wasn't participating in those then, unless we are talking about the second team) or he could easily have amassed 2 more matches with the B or C team or there are matches from playoffs not included, as playoffs are usually being omitted from lists and databases (for comparison/statistics reasons), and here must be also said that I have checked for whether there are friendlies included in those 68, but I doubt it because the other players in the list don't have friendlies (of course I am talking only about those players whose numbers can be verified elsewhere). In addition, regarding his 2nd year in Cardiff City, he was until December on the team and appears he played last on October 2, so maybe he was in the B team for 2 months and played twice there. So, I would suggest making it 68 with the book references as in the WP article, plus those from Cardiff City's forum. What do you say?

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:35, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

When there is a total coming from the official website of the club it refers to or a book about that club (where there was obviously a research done), I prefer not to add a plus sign next to that total, even though, regarding the situation (in this case Welsh competitions), there are big possibilities matches to be missing from the total, and, in case other matches appear lately, obviously the total will be changed accordingly. Regarding players who played for Welsh clubs, and mainly after searching stats for Hutchison, I came to understanding that most likely there are matches in Welsh competitions other than Welsh Cup not recorded or not counted to the tally. For instance, Robbie James has 553 matches and 130 goals in other than the Welsh competitions for Swansea City, but Swansea gives a total of 593 matches (149 goals), i.e. 40 matches more, which is plus the Welsh competitions: he played in 14 seasons for Swansea at the peak years of his career, so that makes it fewer than +3 matches on average (14*3=42) per season, where he won 4 Welsh Cup (in total he won 5, including the one with Cardiff), and you can easily understand that probably there are more than +3 on average matches every season, even if only the Welsh Cup is included (where he definitely played in the majority, if not all, matches of the ones the club played there, where Swansea won the final four times and, as one of the top Welsh clubs, in the other seasons surely went far, i.e. the club probably played on average more than 3 matches per season in the Welsh Cup alone, let other Welsh competitions), as most likely those +40 are only the Welsh Cup numbers, but I prefer not having the plus to the total, which could mean, better said could be perceived easily as, inadequacy, and there are cases where we may never find out the more matches, even if more matches exist, because it appears official numbers in regional competitions (because the ones in question are the regional numbers) to have never been recorded. However, if extra matches appear, of course we can proceed in changing the plus-less total. So, that said, in this case I would suggest 68 instead of 68+, even though having more matches has big possibilities.

Regarding his numbers for Barry Town, you can download the 1994–95 season's file here (xls format), which is coming from Pitchero, which is equivalent to an official website for the club, where you can see 38 matches, so +6 to 32. What do you say?

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Robert Carmona – most official appearances

Hello!

Robert Carmona, who has been re-recognized recently by Guinness World Records as the currently oldest active footballer (Isaak Hayik is older, but apparently isn't currently active), has been also reported to have made around 2,200 official matches. Some other sources: Marca, SportsJoe, Joe. The clubs he has played can be seen in here (until 2020), and some other missing from there perhaps can be seen in his FootballDatabase profile. The most recent relative article is most likely this where you can see relative info, and info about clubs played until now. Should he be added to the list with the most official appearances? Even though he has played mainly in lower leagues, there are professional clubs there, but there is a lack of statistics/details, which makes me believe that he should be added only in the intro and trivia of the article, until there is reliable info showing the number of matches per club. What do you think?

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Kazuyoshi Miura

Hello!

If we consider his WP's clubs' stats to be correct, apparently based on books (seems to be a magazine actually) and so cannot unfortunately be verified, then he has 14 more, than what oGol gives, matches for Tokyo Verdy (253 in WP, 239 in oGol – Yomiuri is included in the count), and then has reached at least 1,000 matches (1,002). So my question is: should we trust the refs his bio article has for supporting 253 as the total and be added in the list with the most official appearances? Or should we find first an additional ref for that? By the way, an article or document that has Tokyo Verdy's players by appearances would be ideal as well (but I am failing to find one).

To clarify: oGol, based on NFT, doesn't include at least (could be more, as NFT usually only includes league matches) 30 matches (25 for Palmeiras, 5 for Matsubara), and also 2 for Japan B (based on FootballDatabase and RSSSF), which make a total of 988 (956+32) – 956 from oGol and not 958, which includes 2 matches for Japan's national futsal team. Additionally, FootballDatabase gives one more match for Japan A, but this doesn't agree with RSSSF and, most importantly, neither agrees with J-Football – apparently, that extra one included in FootballDatabase has to be the one made for the, obviously unofficial, Japan/South Korea team.

P.S. In addition, based on his stats on WP, there is an additional match for Genoa (which would make the total 1,003), as it includes 23 instead of 22, but this is definitely baseless, and of course requires finding a reliable reference proof first: if it happened, which is what I believe (assuming good faith), we are looking either for a short-lived cup/league (most likely in Italy, but it could also be in Europe or even of greater range) or a play-off/play-out/preliminary round match or a match with the Genoa's B team.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 18:54, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, you are right, I had also seen this, but seems temporarily had forgotten to mention it; it was actually the reason why I hadn't put him for discussion before (it's more than a month now that I noticed he probably had reached at least 1,000 matches and also had seen him being added to the Portuguese corresponding article).

However, while Verdazzo is thorough and Kirin Cup is friendly (even though I cannot exclude having some Japanese and Brazilian clubs considering it official, even some corresponding associations from those countries), I have found this from IFFHS, which also has 25 matches for Palmeiras (and, by the way, 23 matches for Genoa), and, coming from IFFHS, it has to be 25; maybe it's Palmeiras B/Reserves team matches, what do you think? IFFHS, usually publishing articles about top level (if you ask me, in weird categorizations, so to boost the records of people of their likes, like CR7 and Messi), they usually have criteria to exclude matches, and not include, and they are the site most affiliated with FIFA, so that 25 must have some basis (the 23 for Genoa they show backs perfectly the total WP has for Genoa in the clubs' stats table).

So, to sum up: I support 25 for Palmeiras, which is anymore backed not only by NFT but also by IFFHS, and 23 for Genoa (+1 to what oGol has, as being also a number backed by IFFHS and considering it agrees with what his WP bio article has, i.e. there apparently was a reason to show 23 and not 22; being +1 on the league, and because I am a bit retarded (just noticed "Serie A Play-off" in the table's notes), it's obviously about a playoff match oGol missed. So, my question was, is and still remains more if you consider the magazine refs WP has in his bio article good enough to claim a total of 253 for Tokyo Verdy or if you think we should seek for more refs for verification of that total number. By the way, I highly doubt WP includes friendlies in those 253, because there are no mistakes in the other numbers of the table, and as 14 friendlies (could be 12)[Note 0] in 9 seasons is too few, and I also see like 3 or 4 tournaments in the note b) that oGol may be missing, including the Super Cup (football DBs often miss matches in Super Cups); noteworthy, however, is that among them is Sanwa Bank Cup, which reads "unofficial" in WP (being also under friendly tournaments in RSSSF)), but again I'd say it's possible to have official status in Japan; in any way, even if he played in 2 matches there, as 2 is the max, and we exclude those as of doubtful status, he would still have 1,001.

[Note 0] P.S. I just noticed oGol shows two more matches now (it has 960 as the total instead of 958), 2 more matches that definitely aren't for Suzuka Point Getters (6 was the number of matches there before the change in the total), which needs looking; by my first sights, seeing they still don't show anything on Palmeiras and Matsubara, I guess they have added 2 more matches for Tokyo Verdy, but haven't counted to verify this yet.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Just adding that I again counted 239 matches total in oGol for Tokyo Verdy, so the 2 matches added there are elsewhere, hence, even if exclude the matches in Sanwa Bank Cup (where he played once or twice, if he played in both years), there would still be a total of 1,003.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:52, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

I don't know why NFT has Serie A next to Palmeiras, but that is also the rank, and, since they have Palmeiras and not Palmeiras B, they probably ought to add the rank of Palmeiras in Serie A, no? However, I think that is not important, but my issue here is this, which says there was no Palmeiras B back then, so those 25 matches must be coming from cups and tournaments missing from oGol, or one that were given official status, at least by FIFA (since they are on IFFHS).

Perhaps AcervoSantista is missing cup matches? Remember, Brazilian clubs have many leagues and cups (several regional cups) that he could have easily amassed one more match, which AceroSantista could easily not be including.

Nonetheless, I have to say it isn't definitely unlikely at all some matches in friendly tournaments to have been given official status by the club or country's FA (Brazil or Japan); remember there was no distinction of friendlies back then, both in the 1980-1990 decade and definitely at least at the early years of 1990-2000 decade, for both Brazil and Japan, and, also, I think we should follow what football DBs and statistical sites give, both for consistency with the other footballers in the list, because those sources are vastly used as reliable and because, as I have stated before, those specific years when all football matches meant the same shouldn't be separated (in all honesty, matches against foreign opponents of "big names" in "friendly" tournaments back then were in fact more competitive than the official against local/country's opponents). Finally, in most cases, with very small exceptions, the statistical organizations, IFFHS and RSSSF, embrace what the country FAs acknowledge as official and FIFA embraces the ones the statistical organizations give as official.

P.S. IFFHS have very strict criteria about what matches they consider as A level and worthy of mention, and they usually, unfortunately, recognize only few matches in Brazilian leagues; if you see closely, the majority of the matches missing are from clubs in Brazil: also, a must mention here is that they also have 253 for Tokyo Verdy (241 Verdy Kawasaki + 12 Yomiuri Tōkyō), which perfectly backs the 253 of WP, and maybe we already had the extra ref we were looking. What do you say about this?

In addition, that IFFHS' article is only about his numbers in what they consider top level, as explained in the body of the article; so, apart from the matches in Brazil they don't consider to be top level, which seem to be many, they also don't include the J2 league matches (that is at least 249 more matches; he had 249 in J2 from 1992 until 11/1/2022 (the data previous to 1992 is not shown in the site of Yokohama FC), so 666+249=915, then 915 + 2 Japan B = 917, with the rest missing must be the majority in Brazil), and anything else from Japanese tournaments not being top level according to them, which explains why they only have 666 as total (it is that, or the statistician who wrote it is an avid metal brother \m/ 😊).

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:04, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Marcelinho Paraíba

Hello!

I couldn't find references on Marcelinho Paraíba for his appearances for Campinense (16) and for Paraguaçuense I only found a source about 29 (8 goals) instead of 34 (see here), even though there is a source claiming he scored 11 goals there (see here), so, in the absence of the support, I suggest a –21 deduction (16+5) with '+' added to his appearances and goals (the total will go to 1,058+). While I watch Brazilian football in the South, the North is an unknown territory for me, so didn't know where to look, and I couldn't find somewhere anything related to his numbers for Campinense in an extensive and exhaustive search, but only general info that he excelled there and won two Campeonato Paraibano (one in 1991 and one in 1993, during his time there in 1991-1993), and it's a wonder where this 16 is coming from, seems as wherever the source was before it has now disappeared from the internet. What do you say?

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:26, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, oGol is the best choice 100% for Latin American footballers stats, and specifically for Brazilians it's 150% the best choice, and NFT was not favored over oGol, just oGol has been updated, and of course we should add the updated stats...

These were his oGol stats (archived link on 16 January 2021) at the time the last changes were made, where you can see that NFT (which only shows league matches, and usually missing regional leagues numbers) was preferred at the time because oGol had him only with 29 then.

Best Regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 17:05, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

It's an affiliated with the club site and also an organized one, one which includes match details, like Verdazzo is for Palmeiras, so it's a trusted site (at least to me), and so I think we should include it; oGol makes a mistake about this match, and it must be also said I've come across with similar matches in the past where this happened (substitute for a substitute) on which oGol didn't include the player as well.

P.S. I would like to add the main issue we have for this player is his first years; the years in Campinense, where he won 2 Paraibano (1991 and 1993) championships as we are talking about 3 years here (Paraibano 1992 included as well), but we are not even having a single match for the club, and Paraguaçuense, where he most likely has played in more matches.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:22, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Kazuyoshi Miura the Sequel

Hello!

– Santos

• Season 1986–87: I agree with the 3 appearances.

• Season 1990: yes for 11 + 18 = 29; now, about the extra 7 matches in Paulista: have you checked thoroughly the matches of 1990 in Acervo Santista and you found him in a total of 25 for Paulista? If so, then I agree with 36 here, so a total of 39 for Santos.

By the way, a bit of history: it doesn't surprise me at all that oGol doesn't have Série A matches: I would actually expect it to have none at all back then, i.e. it's actually suprising me they even include matches from his days in Brazil, and expected it to be like FootballDatabase – it's not random WP doesn't include them; Kazu definitely became known to the mean football fan only in the last 4-5 years, and that for having played after reaching 50 years (and for continuing to do so); he was unknown before to the majority, and only known to Japanese people, Brazilians and hardcore fans for his time in Japan (from them who keenly watch/watched international football) as the time he played football in Japan (J1, not J2, which J2 is in the 2005-2019) were actually the beginnings of Japanese football and something not shown worldwide, and, while his time in Brazil were at a time Brazilian leagues were very strong (I am including Série B as well), there was no cover of them around the world then; remember that the internet was discovered only in 1991 and until 2008 a computer/internet didn't have a commercial status, which it got between 2008-2010, before only rich people could afford it and the rest could only do so via net cafés (era 2000-2008); nowadays, you can buy a decent laptop with 200 euros (before 2008 the cheapest value was around 2000 euros), and of course even them who could afford watching him playing football in Brazil they would barely pay attention to a Japanese player. I was surprised with Zé Roberto, who played in Real and Bayern, missing matches in 1994+, a decade later, but not about Miura's, for the reasons stated before.

– Curitiba

• Yes, 59, based on oGol; by the way, that's a normal number for playing 2 years in a Brazilian club, and could have easily been more. Also, I am pretty sure those "Sem Competição Definida" are from cups, which can be the case for the other Brazilian clubs as well; e.g., as one of its youngest players, did he not play at least once in one of the many cups they play with the shirt of Santos, as for Santos we are only finding league matches?

– Palmeiras

• Yes, it's the one we discussed before; it's definitely very shady, and I would agree with you there most likely are some matches in friendly tournaments/cups given official status here, since there was no Palmeiras B back then, but, it's not only that NFT has it, as it usually happens, but that this is also again backed by IFFHS; I am pretty sure IFFHS has made their research to reach to that number, which is a very strict organization. Nonetheless, if there are numbers they have wrongly included, I am pretty sure those will be corrected in their later publications; remember Miura still plays football and, having made such an article, I would say it's like 99.99% expected to make another one (update) when he retires, at least for the total of their "A level" matches. So, we include 25, which would be perfectly referenced by generally trusted sources, and act accordingly to future updates?

– CRB Maceió (AL)

• The level of the matches played here needs looking; it's kinda typical for Brazil's leagues to often have "schisms" (I even recall reading once about a season where three different Série A were played simultaneously, but I am forgetting the year/season), and I would say that it also often happens for good reasons (one of the vastest countries of the world with maybe thousands of clubs is prone to arguments among some of them, especially at times when even organizing a country league was a challenge, e.g. some "schisms" have been made, from what I recall, because some clubs were given money for transportation and others not – good reason to "defect" from CBF), however it's not only that most not organized by CBF leagues get retrospectively recognized, which is what usually happens, but, also, most importantly, what counts is the way those extra leagues organized by the "defectors" were competed; if we are talking about matches played under rules and regulations of official matches (of course, only talking about what rules and regulations were then in vigor for considering a match as official in Brazil), e.g. the number of available changes a team can make before the match becomes unofficial, the corresponding level of the referees, the stands of the field – based on the level playing, there is a limit of seat (for instance, in many countries you can't have a stadium of 400 people capacity, just a number out of my mind as an example, and play in the top tier, which is why often small clubs promoted playing in other than their own pitch), et c., then I am under the impression it would totally be negligence to not consider those matches, regardless of CBF not having (yet) recognized them; they will just be included with an explanation note. In addition, I am not sure if what's written on the WP article about 1987 Série B league stands correct at the moment, as it has a ref an archived, apparently a dead link, of 2011 (11 years ago was archived, so the publication is at least 11 years old), and we definitely need to find a newer one to check if that info is still accurate; it isn't unlikely even the status to have changed, but, as I said, I would have included them even if it hasn't, with a note explaining CBF hasn't recognized them yet. Tell me if you agree or not. By the way, for starters, there must be a reason that oGol is including it.

– CA Juventus (SP) – Clube Atlético Juventus

• Now I would like to throw on the table also the Brazilian Juventus which he appears to be in 1985 in NFT and then Santos is one year later (according to his FootballDatabase profile, it's XV de Jaú there, but there are many other references on the net which support Juventus instead): I was thinking that he should have played official matches there, not only because he was 17-19 years old, which it isn't like he was 13, but because he was transferred to Santos; is it possible Santos, one of the biggest clubs in Brazil, to have bought him without seeing him playing in official matches before? So I tried searching for matches there, and, even though I haven't yet found (still my search is though in a preliminary round), I did find this, where we learn it's about a second division club, which could become useful later, and from NFT we have "Campeonato Paulista (3. League)" (so that would be a Paulista 3 league for the state league, no?), and then found also this, which says that he played there in four "temporadas": "Su primer equipo fue el Clube Atlético Juventus Sao Paulo en el que permaneció durante cuatro temporadas.", which I guess it probably included something like Apertura & Clausura in the year or it's considering the regional/state league (which usually is played on different time period than the country's league) as a different temporada, i.e. I consider that we will most likely find matches there as well. Perhaps you know some fan-based site like Acervo Santista or Verdazzo about that Juventus as well? P.S. Being a "sudista", my "field", unfortunately, includes more the closely named Juventude, and I had actually known the Brazilian Juventus only by name; probably found it in a cup match and then remembered the name due to Italy's Juventus.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 19:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello again!

Just wanted to add that, taken into account how long his career has been and how regular he had been as a player, at least for the clubs he played in many seasons, even if it's possible for some clubs the actual total number to be of a bit more matches or of a bit fewer matches, I think the number (which has become 1,024+ now, if I calculated correctly, as it was a quick calculation – the plus sign was added for CA Juventus, if we consider he played there, after finding refs supporting this) we are getting as a total makes sense, i.e. I believe it approaches what must be the actual number.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 20:08, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

– Curitiba

Just adding that the official site of the club gives on an article 44 as his total; the 21 verified by IFFHS were in Série A, and gives 23 as the rest; for cups and the Campeonato Paranaense, however I am having the sense something is missing, a sense of uncertainty, as it's on an article and not backed by stats, and because I am assuming good faith in oGol, I am thinking they could be referring only to his league matches (i.e. 21 for Série A + 23 for Campeonato Paranaense), and I would definitely like to see more relative references. By the way, the only other article he is mentioned on their site is this (about winning the Campeonato Paranaense in 1989).

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

However, COXAnautas shows 7 goals in 59 matches.

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Just summarizing the points that are "shady" to make it easier:

• 253 Tokyo Verdy, as we concluded
• 23 Genoa, as we concluded
• 39 Santos, if you verified 25 for Paulista in 1990
• 59 Curitiba (perhaps a note of the article of their site that has 44 and COXAnautas' article; it isn't unlikely at all to even be 59 in total, of which only 44 are official and the rest were in friendlies, but it isn't unlikely to be 59 official either; needs further sources to be clear)
• 25 Palmeiras, with a note having that Verdazzo claims only 3 and those in friendlies (Kirin Cup) and also with this ref on the note
• 4 CRB Maceió, with a note CBF hasn't recognized the Série B played then, if they haven't; still needs looking, as well as the level the matches were performed, i.e. if they abided by the criteria of official then matches
• ? CA Juventus (SP) – needs looking; if we find no info of matches, I suggest leaving a question mark
• ? Japan's younger national teams – it isn't unlikely to have also made appearances for the younger national teams of Japan; needs looking in the archived pages of the now dead JFootball

P.S. My main concern here is the 25 of Palmeiras: NFT, like the pope, makes mistakes, even though good faith and logic-reason is assumed, i.e. there must be a document where that 25 is coming, and of course I cannot exclude IFFHS copying NFT, but I like to believe that IFFHS (the site affiliated the most with FIFA), as a statistical organization and as an organization with strict criteria, does verify the numbers they publish from other sources as well (including FAs, league's organizers, et c.). In any way, we will cover the possibility of being wrong by adding the note about what the sites of Palmeiras give; this is probably the reason oGol has none – however, I have to also note that the news article in the site of Palmeiras could as well be wrong by being based on what Verdazzo has. The rest "shady" numbers don't concern me so much as that, to be honest, and of course there is a very thin line between friendly and official in the years he played football in those clubs.

Do you agree with this summary?

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:45, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

The latest addition (so to be easier to access)

Hello!

• Santos

– Yes, I will also check it later, for an extra count/additional pair of eyes, but I believe you, and yes, it's +6 anymore since oGol has apparently increased the total by one: plus, I am adding here that I just realized their previous changes (the +2 matches two days ago) were also for Santos, as I just remembered it having 16 before on the season instead of 19, also the only archived link of the page on 29/10/2020 gives 11 for Santos on the season back then and the changes since then are: +13 matches played since then (7 Yokohama and 6 Suzuka), + 1 Japan's futsal team (it only had total 1 then), + 8 for Santos on the season we are talking about: 939+13+1+8=961 (what oGol shows now), which shows their changes on stats about his old stats have only been about Santos in the latest years (some time in 2020 until now).

– AcervoSantos giving 35 matches instead of 39 should also be mentioned/included in the note.

• Curitiba

– Yes, of course we could also include that site as well in the note.

• Palmeiras

– Futebol80 is a trusted site, and it could also be included in the note about Palmeiras.

• CRB Maceió

– Yes, that page from RSSSF would suffice as a ref in the according note for me... or do you think we need also another one?

• Japan's younger national teams

– Him playing for the highest age level of Japan since 1990 (at 22-23 years old, which is a big age to make your debut for the top age level NT) makes it very possible having previously played for younger national teams and I would also add here that, while Japan is a very proud "nationalistically" (if such a word exists) country (they historically have been considered the Germany of Asia, due to the history in Asia; no offense meant here with this and no judgement, the past is the past, and we are only talking about football stats), at least in their football they have actually shown a more "international" attitude, so I would say it makes more sense being called up for younger national teams for the same reason, i.e. for playing abroad, more than not being called up for not playing in Japan. Of course, I will search for possible matches for Under-X Japan, as well as for CA Juventus (SP).

P.S. I

– Yes, I am reading he was loaned to play in friendlies, and apparently there was no Palmeiras B, also I think that most likely Verdazzo (a thorough site) would include the other friendlies for Palmeiras (Palmerias senior), if other than the 3 matches he played for Kirin Cup were played, so makes sense those 25 matches to have been for an U23 or U21 or U20 team. I don't know which is the structure of youth teams in Brazil, but they do have an U-20 team, however we definitely need to look if a Palmeiras U23/U21/U20 existed back then, but in any way IFFHS backs NFT and gives power to the number of 25 matches there, even though I have to agree that this is the most mysterious and shady of all; the actual number for the rest "shady" ones has to be más o menos ("more or less" in English?) the numbers we have concluded.

P.S. II

– The stats about Dinamo Zagreb, Kyoto Sanga, Vissel Kobe and Sydney can be also verified from IFFHS.

– Regarding Yokohama, I get 287 from this (Yokohama's site) in J1, J2 and J League Cup + 2 Emperor's Cup in 2019 + 2 in 2018 + 1 in 2016 + 2 in 2008 + 2 in 2007 = 296, in year 2005 he has 37 matches on oGol, which are stats of 3 clubs, of which 18 are for Vissel Kobe (can be verified by Yokohama's site), so 19 availabe for Yokohama, but 2 in Mundial de Clubes are for Sydney, so 17 for Yokohama: 16 J2 league (counted and verified via Yokohama's site) + 1 in Emperor's Cup, hence 296+1=297, and then in 2010 oGol gives 31 matches, but without details, though 30 are J2 league based on the site of Yokohama, so 1 must be in Emperor's Cup, which would make the total 298, and is the only one that needs to be checked, or perhaps not, because it can be verified calculating it from another angle: we have 287 from Yokohama's site, of which 9 are in league cup and the rest in leagues, so 278 in leagues, then + 17 in cups from IFFHS = 295 until 13 March 2021, and he played 3 times since then, so 298 can be totally verified.

– Regarding Suzuka Point Getters, I don't think there must be a mistake or dispute about the 6 matches in J4, of which also details exist; based on Goal, he also appears in one match against Yokohama for Emperor's Cup, but he is not in the lineups on BeSoccer, and they have other matches as well later (in June), but without match details and none of them being in oGol yet; taken into account that Goal doesn't seem reliable, judging from the cup match mentioned previously, I would say there aren't others or maybe there are but haven't been included yet in oGoal, which has matches until May. So, to sum up, there are at least 6 here.

P.S. III

Curitiba – The corresponding Portuguese article gives 69 for Curitiba instead of 59, but, as, we found out, there doesn't appear to be a basis about this; maybe it's a typo (69 instead of 59) or it could be 59 official and 10 friendlies included perhaps?

Sydney – The Portuguese WP article also gives 7 matches for Sydney FC instead of 6, for which I will try searching for perhaps a game oGol is missing; from IFFHS' page, we know he did play in 6 top-level matches for Sydney, so we are looking for 1 more match with the B team of Sydney perhaps or in a regional tournament not given top-level status or an U23/U21/U20 Sydney team that allows overage players?

P.S. IV

– I haven't yet checked about the info in the last addition you made on the comment.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:37, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

11 for Santos

Hello!

I wouldn't exclude being likely that those 11 to actually not have been all for Série A, but only some of them, and the rest on friendlies given official A-level status, or even all being in friendlies, but, being both on NFT and IFFHS, there is definitely good enough support for claiming these 11 all as official.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 23:37, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Update

Hello!

Regarding Suzuka Point Getters, he has played in 6 matches and no more, as he had been injured since 15/5, and he is still in therapy; see news here and here (archived links because the site doesn't allow viewing from Europe).

Regarding Yokohama, just adding that even the unreliable Transfermarkt also has 298, with an Emperor's Cup match in 2011, and, while it shows 5 in the menu on the right for Suzuka, you can see 6 in the matches list.

P.S. Nothing about having more matches about Curitiba found, nothing about playing one more match for Sydney either, and nothing about younger national teams of Japan of U17 and U23 (while there are a couple of matches with no details archived in JFootball, I doubt he played there), however it's still likely to have played for Japan U20, for which there are no match details in JFootball.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 02:01, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

2010 was a typo

Hello!

• Japan x-U

– Regarding Japan's U20, I found nothing elsewhere in an extensive search, so I have concluded he didn't make any appearance for any of the U-x Japan national team.

• CA Juventus

– It's likely he didn't play for CA Juventus either, at least in a match of the kinds we include, as the majority of the articles around agree he started there, but made his first professional contract in Santos, i.e. he may have played only in the youth levels of the club. Also, that club was in the second division (Brasileirão Série B), so I think it would be known if he had played matches there (we do find Série B matches mentioned, e.g. like we did for CRB Maceió). However, if he played, I believe the only matches he may have played for that club would be in Paulistão A3 (that's what NFT is giving for the club in 1985). In addition, having played in 4 years there (since 1982), but from NFT having only 1985, we can assume there is at least one match played in A3, which is why NFT is mentioning it, otherwise why include the year? Though, I doubt we will find any source about this (Paulista A3 in 1985 is extremely hard to be found), unless we find a very thorough fan-based site about CA Juventus, but that club is apparently not that known so to have such a site, or at least I couldn't locate one.

– Some examples of articles here, here, and here (where it says he started his career in 1982 for XV de Jaú, maybe a mistake or passed there as well initially).

– Conclusion: in 1982–1986 he played only in Paulista A3 in 1985, but I doubt we will find a ref about how many times he played, so the club listed with a question mark.

• Yokohama

– 2010 was indeed a typo; the cup match in 2011 is this (BeSoccer page with lineups).

• Sydney

– 2005 A-League Pre-Season Challenge Cup has lineups (in WorldFootball) of the matches played, and he isn't on any, plus those matches were played before he was loaned there, and the version of 2006 doesn't have lineups (even though I am guessing these matches have to also be in WorldFootball), but these matches were played after he had returned to Japan, so he couldn't have played in matches of an A-League Pre-Season Challenge Cup. So, I guess that +1 has to be in a friendly.

• CRB Maceió

– Yes, another source would be a good idea, especially perhaps one in Portuguese from a Brazilian site.

• Santos

– Yes, of course, I agree. Besides, adding that AcervoSantos gives a total of 35 of which 9 are friendlies would be more complete.

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 04:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Matsubara, XV de Jaú & CRB

Hello!

Apart from Maceió, I would like to also bring into debate Matsubara and XV de Jaú, these two clubs he played which are the only ones we haven't discussed yet.

• XV de Jaú

– What is the number of matches you are getting for XV? While both oGol and NFT have 25 (2), oGol has 14 in Série A (with match details) and 11 as "Sem Competição Definida", with NFT having 25 (2) in Paulista 3, so, assuming those without competition defined being in Paulista, we have 39 total or do you think it should be 50?

• Matsubara

– Regarding Matsubara, based on NFT, he appears in 1987–88 with 5 matches for Paranaense 3, but WorldFootball shows 1986, so I also searched for matches in 1986 and found out Matsubara played in something called Torneio Brasil Sul de 1986 (Portuguese article), a tournament they won, which isn't included in RSSSF's friendly tournaments, and neither found an indication somewhere of it being friendly, where Kazu definitely played there (see this), so, if those matches it included were all the matches Matsubara played, he could have played in between 1 and 10 matches, but without proof of how many not even one can be included or perhaps only one can be included? What do you say? (most likely he played in most matches there, if not all) Do you perhaps know a source for that tournament that includes lineups?

– Having two records in oGol (also including 1986) and with Transfermarkt (unreliable site, but often reliable for transfer dates) having a period of 1986–87, I give credits to both years, i.e. he played both in 1986 and 1987; I also guess that even if the time had not been continuous (i.e. WorldFootball being right he returned to 1986), it is likely he returned there in 1987 (the two records on oGol could mean/maybe means a second contract after the expiration of the first) and in general I've come to the conclusion during his time in Brazil, which is unclear/obscure for the majority of the clubs, it's likely he went and returned more than once for many clubs (sometimes without contracts, because the time he played football in Brazil such things were often, e.g. being called only to play in friendlies as he happened to be nearby).

• CRB Maceió (AL)

Here oGol, without details, agrees with NFT in the number 4 in 1987; NFT has the 4 we discussed before, but I wouldn't exclude the possibility of having played more matches. As you are often aware of fan-based sites, do you perhaps know any site affiliated with this club where we could look for statistics or matches played back then?

P.S. Even though there are variances in the number of matches for almost all the Brazilian clubs he played (between articles, DBs, affiliated with the club sites et c.), I would like to say there aren't any unusual total numbers for the ones we are getting for the Brazilian clubs, and, while it's likely there are some friendlies included in some (as well as for some clubs official matches may be missing; a good example here is Torneio Brasil Sul), since we have the back-up from NFT/IFFHS/oGol, we can add him, but of course with the according necessary notes, and I must say, from what I've seen, I believe the actual number to have passed 1,000 official matches.

Awaiting your reply...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 03:57, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

The Latest

Hello!

Sorry for the delay to respond, I've been looking for additional matches and for info to cover the "shady" numbers we have for the Brazilian clubs.

• XV de Jaú

– Yes, you are right... I had just clicked on the year for XV and noticed there were match details, but didn't really check them, or I would have noticed it was about Curitiba, so I totally agree here with 25 (2) for XV. Moreover, XV played in 1988 in Série C, but at that period Kazu was in Curitiba, and there was no national cup played before 1989, neither this club appears in any of the cups played in 1987–88 (without though excluding RSSSFBrasil to be missing state or interstate cup tournaments). If he played elsewhere than Paulista, it's only this (Copa São Paulo Junior 1988, which then was an U-21 tournament) and this (the club named XV de Novembro there), but I doubt if we will find info about lineups for the matches played in them (for instance, with the limitations I have, i.e. I can't search old Brazilian newspapers, and taken into account the info that's been digitized, I can only find info about the lineups of the final of the Copa São Paulo Junior 1988, and XV wasn't in the final). By the way, football DBs (NFT, oGol, et c.) do include such tournaments (not only U21, but also U23, U22, U20 and U19) and fairly because those are senior level and equivalent to Reserves/B or C team matches. I am also excluding this because it was after having become professional, based on this, and it would be weird if he played there. Probably if the info had been available to be found in the WWW, they would have been added, so I would say 25+ (2+) matches here.

• Matsubara

– Yes, because the eleven (+3 substitutes) players for Matsubara appearing there seem to be taken from a match (probably the last match played, which gave them the trophy), I would say that we can claim him playing there at least once, so I would suggest 6+ matches for Matsubara. Most likely he played in the majority of those 10 matches showed (no idea if there were more), like the majority of the players there (wouldn't be a surprise at all if in total for Matsubara played 14-18 players – having only found as relative info the matches of Figueirense there, in which 18 players played, most likely the clubs didn't feature more than 18 players), but we cannot claim more than one matches without extra back-up, however we can say he definitely played in one. In addition, Google searches find Google Books parts of Placar Magazine, but there are only match results there and no lineups. Now, there are 2 other tournaments I found that he could have played matches for Matsubara: 1st) Taça São Paulo de Futebol Junior 1986 (which in WP appears as Copa, but it's the same tournament), where I found, from AcervoSantista, that he actually played there but for Santos – that's an U21 tournament and Santos U21 is equivalent to a B/Reserves team, so it should be four more matches for Santos in 1986 (WP article of the season), and 2nd) Campeonato Paranaense de Juniores, which Matsubara dominated in 1985–1988 (by the way, the champions of 1988 were Coritiba, where he could have played with in 1988, when he was 20-21 years old), a tournament I cannot find info about in WP or RSSSFBrasil, unless it's the one called Copa Tribuna (there are some other junior and state tournaments/cups he could have played for, 1985–1988 years, but I don't think we will find info about). One noteworthy is Torneio Inicio played in 1986 where Santos, XV de Jaú and Juventus played, with the last one winning that (he could have played there with any of the three clubs); they also won the Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985 (the year that appears in NFT, which could be + matches if he played there – you can see the lineups of the final in their site here, as well as a photo, and he doesn't appear being, at least in the final, neither in the match against Santos).

– Link for Matsubara in História do Futebol.

– Also, for the record, Torneio Brasil Sul was organized by the CBF.

– So, bottom line here, I think we could go with 6+ (1+) for Matsubara.

• Santos

– As explained above (under Matsubara), it should be +4 matches in 1986 for the club.

• CRB

– He is credited with winning Alagoano in 1987, where he played between 01/1987 – 06/1987 based on WorldFootball and the whole year of 1987 based on Transfermarkt, which isn't unlikely at all, but anyway the only tournament, apart from the White Module, found he could have played here is Alagoano 1987, where he definitely didn't play in the final, but what about the previous matches? I have found this article which has different explanation of the time/how many days he played there, and also states he didn't play in the Alagoano, from the local news, which I think is good enough to conclude he played only 4 times there.

P.S. In this article says he played 0 matches for CRB and didn't play for Santos in the Série A in 1990, but I believe they are missing context (like the one about the "Série B 1987") and matches in Juniores (U20 or U21), and I have an idea about the "shady" matches of 25 for Palmeiras in 1986–87 and 11 for Santos in 1990 in Série A, which NFT and IFFHS have but don't appear in affiliated and official sites of the clubs; if those matches were played in a Série A de Juniores, it would make perfectly sense to be missing from the clubs' sites which mention only A team matches and at the same time would make perfectly sense those to be in NFT (which, as we have discussed before, it includes matches of the kind, and fairly I would say); based on RSSSFBrasil, such a tournament started/was played in the 2000s, as well as by WP, but I was thinking that it wouldn't make sense previously having as early as 70s and 80s state leagues of the kind and not having a national league of the kind, and, while I find many citations about a state league of Juniores (e.g. Botafogo/Rio de Janeiro, and a Carioca for juniores since 1920!!!), I find it hard locating one such citation for an according national league, however I did find THIS: 1983 – Vice-campeão Campeonato Brasileiro de Juniores, which is why I think it existed back then, apparently not from CBF, but from some other organization, perhaps a local/state one or an interstates one or one that was created for that reason, but one that hasn't digitized the records it kept, though NFT/IFFHS that gather documents that don't exist in the digital world or not in public (e.g. via emails) are expected to know and a Série A de Juniores, even though age-limited, is top-level. Acervo Santista only has Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior, but it would make sense not having info, like no other club-related sites seems to not do as well; a football DB like NFT and a statistical organization like IFFHS may retract documents directly from CBF and all other relative FAs.

Awaiting your feedback...

Kind regards!

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

The Latest 2

Hello!

Yes, of course we can include in their according notes that it's possible those appearances to have been with the Juniores/U21 team in a Série A de Juniores, which is why it would make sense not being found in the club's site, but being found in NFT/IFFHS.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Dinamo Zagreb

Hello!

Just for the record, Kazuyoshi Miura played only in 12 league matches for Dinamo Zagreb; when he went there Dinamo Zagreb had already been disqualified from Europe and the national cup, where, even though had won the previous year, they went home early after losing in the first round to a 4th division club.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 11:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

XV de Jaú in 1985

Hello!

XV de Jaú in 1985 and not CA Juventus there seemed weird in FootballDatabase, but then I found this (Paulista) and this (Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985, which CA Juventus won), and he doesn't appear in the 2nd match, which is +2 matches for the club in 1985, do you agree? Also, not only he played for XV back then, but he also went on a tour in Japan with the club, based on this (unfortunately, WordPress site). Perhaps you know any site where we could find more matches with lineups for Paulista 1985 or Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985? By the way, do you think we could use Gremiopedia as a reliable reference? I, for one, have no problem with that, when it comes with extra proof, which in this case does; in the section Publicações includes this.

Some other info here, even though from non-reliable sites; here (CulturaJaponesa) says he started with Jaú in 1985 and in a comment here (Facebook) someone says that his first professional match was the Palmeiras vs. XV de Jaú (2–3) found above.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

+ some (more) reliable sources

A reliable source here (from news) talking about the tour of the club in Japan in 1984, and also reliable sources mentioning him playing in 1985 against Palmeiras: esportes, match report on futebol80, and esportesmais, for which I believe it's his first professional match.

Awaiting your feedback/opinion about those two additional matches that appeared...

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 16:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello!

Yes, you are right, that was a mistake, as I thought it was the 2nd match of the leg, as I had considered it was the next match/2nd leg from the menu it has; didn't notice the year at all, but had thought the "Jogo anterior e posterior" meant the menu of the matches played in the Copa São Paulo de Futebol Júnior de 1985.

Well, regarding CA Juventus: first, he was in that club in the years 1982–1986, as there are many sources supporting this, but apparently not continuously, as he had passed, as we saw, either loaned or even probably played in some other temporary basis form I would say, e.g. like an oral contract, that the times/period allowed back then, or "exchange programs", whatever that means, which sounds more like a cultural than a sportive thing, from both XV in 1985, and I am also thinking maybe possibly also for Santos in a small stint in 1986, before actually buying him on a full transfer, and my basic idea is:

– 1) if he didn't play any match of the kinds we are interested in for a club he was for 4 whole years in a country where the average/regular footballer plays since 16-17 years old (well, perhaps not in the state league, but they do so in the regional leagues), why would he not play a single match there until 1986 when he would be 18-19 years old (born in 1967)?

– 2) Most sources (including BBC) claim he was made a professional with Santos in 1986, but we found professional matches even in 1985 (for Paulista with XV), so they are wrong he became a professional there.

– 3) NFT includes the club with the year in 1985, not before, not after; if he didn't play any match that interests football DBs and us there in a club he was still an amateur footballer, why would they even include the club?

Hence, it is for these two previously stated reasons that I believe CA Juventus made him his first professional footballer registration license in 1985 (before that was an amateur player, playing in youth, i.e. U18 or U-x where X is smaller than 18) and not Santos in 1986, and all the times the reason this happens is simple --> so the player to play in professional matches, thus he must have played in 1985 for the club, unless he joined XV immediately after becoming professional.

– 4) The match vs. Gremio is on 06/01/1985, which is not a professional tournament (but one of the kinds we include, as equivalent to B team matches) and he appears in 24/11/1985 playing his first professional football, so he has become professional before, and apparently the exchange program didn't last 11 months; he must have been to XV for another exchange program or a loan, but what happened between January and November? I believe he returned to play in U21/U20 matches and ended up getting a professional license, because you have to be professional before playing a professional match, but I find no info of becoming professional in XV.

In simpler words, he signed for CA Juventus, a professional club in 1982, but apparently wasn't a professional until 1985, which is where we see him in Paulista; if it was XV that made him professional, why there isn't any relative information found online? So it has to be CA Juventus.

Summing up: we found out he did play with XV in 1985 his first professional match (apparently), which supports the theory of joining another club soon after becoming professional, but there are many months before in 1985 that he could have played for CA Juventus in Juniores tournaments.

Bottom line, I think we cover that in-between period with the question mark; probably we won't find records of any possible matches in-between, but it must be a minor one-digit insignificant number anyway...

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 00:07, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Tommy Hutchison

Hello!

ENFA includes the match details for all the matches for UK clubs in English and UK competitions, but they don't have those for purely Scottish or purely Welsh competitions, but, apart from being forbidden (since it's a subscription required), you cannot archive any of their pages anyway; there is no different URL, but one, so you can't do archived pages, however one could though make screenshots (SSs), but I wouldn't risk it... you can still see some of those matches in 11v11.

P.S. For league totals, you can see Barry Hugman, Sporting-Heroes and Neil Brown (more complete) archives.

Kind regards,

Lorry Gundersen (talk) 04:08, 3 July 2022 (UTC)