User talk:Amy givon

Welcome!

Hello, Amy givon, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Unfortunately, one or more of the pages you created, such as High school (pre-war Japan), may not conform to some of Wikipedia's guidelines, and may not be retained.

There's a page about creating articles you may want to read called Your first article. If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the Teahouse, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{help me}} on this page, followed by your question, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Here are a few other good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Questions or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! Jaaron95 (talk) 15:24, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion nomination of High school (pre-war Japan)

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A tag has been placed on High school (pre-war Japan) requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator, or if you have already done so, you can place a request here. Jaaron95 (talk) 15:24, 7 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion nominations

Hi Amy,

I've noticed the about 60 deletion nominations that you have placed on South Korean university articles in the last hour and a half. It seems like you are deleting any school listed in Category:South Korea university stubs that are privately owned? Please note that in order for an article to be nominated for deletion it must be demonstrated that it is not notable, as per either WP:ORG or WP:GNG. It does not seem like you are taking the time to evaluate these articles since many of them have multiple references from notable secondary sources, thus indicating that they are likely notable and are appropriate content for Wikipedia. This may be because of the recent deletion of your article about a high school, but please note that does not mean that all private schools are eligible for deletion. I am going to reverse the edits, and to avoid edit warring, please do not nominate these articles for deletion again without coming to a consensus here first. If you have any questions, I would be more than happy to help. Additionally, if I can help in any way with an article you are interested in creating or if you want to improve your previous article, don't hesitate to ask for help and I would be happy to assist you in any way I can. Rystheguy (talk) 09:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rystheguy: My edits on the schools were neither vandalism nor mistake. I just wanted to save precious hard disk space of Wikipedia servers (ultimately reducing CO2 footprints). The schools are neither "university" nor liberal arts "colleges". They are vocational schools. Among the programs they teach nail art and coffee making. They are different from American community colleges in that they are not for the students who are not affordable to enroll 4-year colleges. What "knowledge or lessons" can the international (or English speaking) readers obtain from the schools' yellow pages? Are they going to enroll South Korean vocational schools to learn how to make coffee? Have they heard about them from Korean historical literature? The only reason the pages were created is "Advertisement". The speed deletion criteria with which "I" was challenged is "Criteria A7" which is "No importance". (Even though my article was totally NOT advertisement. Rather it had historical value in understanding the socio-cultural aspects of pre-war Japan including Korean peninsula.) They are NOT IMPORTANT domestically and internationally. There are long and complex history of building those private schools which traces back to landlords's escaping from the expropriation of their rice farms after the Independence. The higher educations system of S.Korea resembles that of Japan but, totally different in post-secondary vocational education. Therefore they are different from Japanese degree-granting liberal arts 2-year colleges which translates into "short term" colleges. [1] (The counterpart of Korean vocational colleges in Japan are not degree-granting colleges. They are called Senmon. [2].) Korean 2-year liberal arts colleges were merged into post-secondary vocational schools by President Park in late 1970s to make workforce for rapid industrialization. To make things worse in 2011 Korean government allowed them to use the "University" designation as result of their lobbying. I don't judge the President Park's policy but YOU (English speaking internationals) don't have to waste your time and precious hard disk space on these schools. If you see the Korean Wikipedia page on the schools in general [3] you can see the abandoned article. Nobody cares the page. Why? I used the category [4] not the category in English Wikipedia you mentioned. Amy givon (talk) 12:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Amy,

Thank you for your reply. The category you mentioned on the Korean Wikipedia is indeed for vocational schools, but those are not limited to 2-year schools teaching coffee making and nail art. For example, the article I wrote for Ulsan College, which is how I was originally notified of your edits, is called 울산과학대학교 in Korean, and means "Ulsan Science College". This school offers 3–4-year programs in early childhood education, nursing, dental hygiene, accounting, etc. Additionally, this school offers programs in English and has even employed English professors in the past. The school also has an international student exchange program. These are all reasons why this school is of interest to the English community.

My point here is that, although you might be correct that some of the schools you nominated for deletion are not notable, choosing to delete them because they exist in a Korean category for vocational schools, rather than based on their notability as per WP:GNG or WP:ORG, is inappropriate. Wikipedia is not concerned with hard drive space, only notability. Also, the Korean Wikipedia is much less developed than the English version, and many articles that are present on the English site but not the Korean site should probably be created on the Korean site and will likely be created in the future. The page that you said was abandoned has not been abandoned. In fact it was last improved in January 2015. It is a stub article and needs improving, and should probably be merged with this article.

As for your article that was deleted, it sounds like it might be notable, and perhaps there were just some problems with it that could have been fixed. I'm not sure what the problems were since I can't see what was written because of the deletion. Do you have a draft of it saved? If you do, save it to your Sandbox and I can help you with it. More information about the sandbox can be found here. Rystheguy (talk) 14:17, 11 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Rystheguy: Firstly, with all due respect you'd better know about S.Korean 2-year colleges. All of their programs were originally 2-years before 2000. Some of their programs have been elevated to 3-year (later even to 4-year) after their fierce and persistent lobbying. The government just gave in. (report on the conflicts) And "All" of them have removed or replaced the notion of "vocational" from their name plates (by usually putting "science" instead in their names. The original regulation required them to put "vocational" in their names(xx전문대학).) That's when Ulsan Vocational College changed their name to Ulsan Science College. Do you think the "physical therapy" is a discipline of natural science? The "English program" you mentioned was originally "Tourism/Hotel/Trade English program" which were widely opened among Korean vocational schools in 70s and 80s. It was not the English Literature/History/Philosophy as in English of Oxford or something. No Koreans consider them as a real degree-granting schools even though some of their programs spans for 4 years. The reason is that Koreans "know" their history. The schools' ultimate goal is becoming regular 4-year colleges or even universities. That's why they created the Wikipedia pages. It was an advertisement. (Some of the vocational schools I proposed to be deleted had really "University" in their names which can mislead even Korean readers. report on that issue) Then who cares for poor/day-working or returning elderly students? Do you think the change is good for Koreans?

Secondly, the Ulsan Science College (some of their programs, including accounting are still 2-year) has a strong financial support from its owner, Hyundai. It may employ even foreign professors and exchange with foreign institutions. But it is one of RARE exceptions which means it's one of "Porche"s or "Ivy League" of its kind. Not all 2-year colleges are like that. In other words, it doesn't represent the schools in general. Ulsan is a company town of Hyundai as in Detroit of GM or Ford. You can let the page of the school be undeleted. I won't bother you on that any more. FYI, when I proposed deletions of the pages on vocational schools I filtered out some of them because I thought they deserve their pages for their notability in Korea. One example is 서울예전, which is a traditional 2-year arts/drama school to which many Korean TV/entertainment celebrities went.(The President Park's policy grouped these "non-industrial" schools with vocational schools together by putting the word "전문대학" in their names universally.) The school is truly "Notable" even to international readers.

Thirdly. the reason I mentioned the "abandoned" page was to make you know the interest or enthusiasms on the topic among the Korean editors. They don't care because they don't care about the vocational schools, their identity. They go to the schools because they are short of Korean SAT score or GPA required for regular colleges not because they can't afford regular colleges or to get a quick access to technical jobs. There's no pragmatism in Korea. They are obsessed with Confucianism. I just wanted to let you know the point by showing you the page's current status. I showed you the page not because the Korean Wikipedia is generally empty compared to English version but because the "status" of that page particularly indicates the ignored social status of the schools in Korea.

Fourthly, on the merging issue you suggested with ko:전문학교, there are no official institutions called "전문학교" in Korea. On the contrary there are official institutions called "전수학교" in Japan which I already talked you about. However if an editor merge the ko:전문대학 with the Japanese non-degree-granting 전수학교 or Senmon there will be a edit war because Koreans who went the 전문대학 assumes they "went" colleges.

Lastly, on the speed-deleted article I wrote, never mind. It has nothing to do with international readers except readers from China, Korea, Japan. FYI I'll show the Japanese version of that article ja:旧制高等学校. Amy givon (talk) 07:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amy givon, it seems to me that your opposition to these institutions having Wikipedia articles is based on problems you personally have with them and with some aspects of Korean society. Your assessment of their worth as schools (or lack thereof, rather) may be entirely valid, but Wikipedia doesn't make judgements and cover only subjects that benefit society, it covers notable subjects. The basis for each schools' inclusion in Wikipedia is based entirely on whether it passes WP:GNG and/or WP:GROUP, not on whether it's a quality school, worthy of being called a "university", has a lofty social status, or good for Korean education. I, too, have lived and worked in Korea, and I personally find many, many, many aspects of the Korean education system absurd, fake, based on manufactured hype, and unworthy of attention from anyone at all, but even notability gained through underhanded means is still notability in Wikipedia's eyes. Perhaps there needs to be a large discussion in conjunction with WP:KOREA and WP:WPSCH about how to handle these types of institutions and how they fit into notability guidelines. However, it remains that each of these articles must still be individually assessed for notability, and notability alone, not quality or worthiness to society. Shinyang-i (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Amy. Chose the worst cases (two or three) and nominate them for deletion at AfD. See how it goes. See my view on this. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:16, 13 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Piotrus: I cat't get what your point is. Please explain in more detail.Amy givon (talk) 07:16, 18 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your mass prods failed. Try individual afds instead. Start with <3. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:22, 19 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]