User talk:A. B./September 2023

Quick question

Hey! Thanks for listing my PROD for National parishes (Quebec) at the Christianity deletion noticeboard. Do you use a tool to track AfDs and PRODs for Christianity-related subjects? If so, I'd love to use it to keep tabs so I can participate in those discussions even if they aren't listed. Thank you for your clerking! ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

No tool - I just skim the PROD and AfD lists for articles that interest me or for articles that I think need another set of eyes.

In the case of Quebec churches, it was both. I think your assessment is probably correct but I threw it out there "just in case". I was going to leave a note at WikiProject Quebec, too, but ran out of time. I was thinking that if there were refs, they'd be in French. Also, since this is a French topic, maybe the article's title in English isn't quite right.

Being lazy with terrible French skills, I outsource these concerns and any searching to others with a posting at deletion sorting.

I find about 25% of the PRODs I do this with get overturned by someone who knows the subject. In other cases, somebody puts a PROD2 tag, confirming an article is trash.

That article is fishy-looking to me. I think a posting at WikiProject Quebec would really smoke this out. If it's really a thing, the locals will know right away.

I'll do this in the morning.

Anyway, thanks for all your work on Christianity articles!!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 08:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Oh, wow, you do it manually! You deserve every bit of credit you can get. Thank you for your willingness to take on what must feel like busywork—it really does help the project. Please feel welcome to ping me if you ever need a second set of eyes on something. Thank you for explaining your process, by the way; always nice hearing how another editor approaches things. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Really, for me it's not busywork. Some deletions are like puzzles to be solved in the interest of getting a good outcome for Wikipedia. Reaching out for help is just one part of the process.

I don't deletion sort except articles that have caught my eye. Doing others would be sort of a chore.

I do some busywork - cleaning out old prod notices from deletion sorting lists but I view that as cleaning up after myself. Ditto hours cleaning out red links after recruiting others to delete about 100 articles about non-existent Manitoba train stations and towns. I thought I had them doing all the work but afterwards the joke was on me. More cleaning up after myself.

I'm also picky - there are whole topic areas I avoid either because I'm not interested (much of popular culture) or I have difficulty evaluating sources (Nigerian topics for example)

Ironically, I'm a deletionist at heart. I think we have a lot to purge. The majority of AfDs, CSDs and PRODs I tacitly support and don't bother to comment at. I see myself QC-ing a vital process.

Also, I tag dubious articles as I encounter them while reading for pleasure. I spend way too much time on Wikipedia reading for pleasure and not editing. More outsourcing- looks fishy but I'm enjoying reading.

I am very old school about automated editing - I should take a day or two studying how to improve my efficiency. That said, I suppose my "outsourcing" to others via deletion sorting and WikiProject notices is a way of increasing my efficiency and the scope of what I do.

Also much of what I do involves thinking - not sure Twinkle handles that. Additionally I spend too much time digging for references online - I'm always looking for ways to dig into more obscure topics.

I wish I had access to a big research university library and go look at paper books.

I've followed your work from a distance- it's people like you that do the high value stuff here!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 16:09, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey, if you ever want access to print texts from university libraries, let me know. I will be relocating from my beloved Colorado (may the Rocky Mountain Empire stand tall) to Washington, D.C. If you ever want me to pop over to one of the various academic libraries—including the massive Library of Congress—I'll have general access through my work. I see you're really more of a recent return after an extended absence. For whatever time you're willing to continue contributing to the project, I'd love to enable your work. Consider this a belated welcome back! ~ Pbritti (talk) 21:48, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:50, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Pbritti, see:

• Wikipedia talk:Quebec Wikipedians' notice board#Proposed deletion: National parishes (Québec)

A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 23:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

A few more comments based on others seeing this thread:

• I watch more AfDs than I participate in. If I subsequently see they don't need another opinion, I don't spend time on them.
  • If I deletion sort them, I'm monitoring them even if I don't participate
  • We have some very diligent deletion sorters, especially @Spiderone, and they often get there ahead of me. So I may still be watching an AfD even if I haven't deletion sorted it.
• I watch PRODs -- if I've deletion sorted them, I'm watching to see if anyone responds.

Of course, this is on a heavy editing day for me like yesterday. Some days and even some years^{[1][2][3][4][5]} I don't show up here. The world goes on.

My partner says I need another hobby and they're probably right.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:18, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Y'know—and I'm just spitballing here—if you decide that this hobby is something you want to keep up with, maybe in six months it might be nice to see you get back some of the tools you let lapse. You've clearly still got the aptitude and attitude required. Thanks again for the diligent work you do. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:22, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I'm flattered. We'll see.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 22:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Love for you

I don't know how should it be expressed, but I will surely say, you are one of the greatest editors I found in english wikipedia, who evaluate edits with the highest honesty as far as possible. May God bless you. ❤️ 202.134.10.130 (talk) 17:14, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you - I'm flattered, especially since you wrote this after we disagreed with each other at a DRV for the most vexatious AfD I've been involved with (out of many 100s).

I sympathize with your frustrations both with the AfD outcome and the terrible behaviour there. (See WP:SEALION!)

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I will not explicitly mention, but I mention to you with grief that I feel victimized by certain fierce people who you saw badger and vulnerablely force their point of view despite knowing about going against guideline, they never hasitate to tell open lie for their own interest, but God always sees, he never keeps anything left without proper judjement, and again I express feeling heartily to have a good people. 202.134.10.130 (talk) 17:27, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

By the way, I ask you for info, is that, that and that edits are really undue and fringe as the undoers claimed there? 202.134.10.130 (talk) 17:41, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I don’t normally get involved with this topic area so I won’t comment on those edits. What I will advise is that, in your editing environment

• Play the “long game”
  • Think in months or years
  • Consider addressing the roots of any abusive, coordinating, rather than today’s edit war
• Pick your battles
  • • You are playing the long game.
  • In particular, only add content that is unambiguously referenced by a source whose reliability will be obvious to non-South Asian, non-Muslim and non-Hindu editors. Leave no ambiguity to be exploited.
  • Don’t stop editing
  • Don’t fight over grey areas.
    • You are playing the long game
• Take notes with diffs, URLs offline for future use
  • Get very familiar with Wikipedia’s rules. Not just the titles but the detailed content
    • You are playing the long game.
• Stay cool. Very cool. The least little hint of incivility will be used against you, even if the other side is worse. They will have a dozen friends show up to make a big deal of it.
  • Speak to content, not personalities.
    • You are playing the long game
• There’s an old quotation to the effect that, “if you’re going to kill the king, don’t wound him”
  • • You are playing the long game
  • Avoid noticeboards unless you have double the evidence you need.
  • Read about the legal doctrine of unclean hands
  • See WP:BOOMERANG
  • Fairly or not, there is an unacknowledged presumption at noticeboards than an IP or new editor making a complaint is likely wrong and throwing a boomerang
  • If you show up with an IP associated with a blocked user or an open proxy, your comments will be struck or even deleted. This means if you edit at an open hotspot, you should check to see who has used the IP before you and what it’s block history is.
• If you find hard evidence of off-wiki coordination, take screenshots. Do not post online - email to ArbCom.

I’ll post more as I think of it.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:29, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I can clearly doubt about one or more "clever" accounts being sock recently, and also doubt that thay are (probably "highly") paid and backsupported and patronised by "higher" communities for telling on behalf of them tricky lies and doing fierce attacking behaviour to targeted opponents to defend their ownselves, lawfully and even at case verily unlawfully, and also know about "admins" accused of having bribe from international leading companies for editing on behalf of them, found in google, don't know true or false, even in that case, little can be expected, only except God helps as we rely on God for His unpredictable and unmeasurable assistance. 202.134.10.130 (talk) 18:43, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

If you have good evidence about admin misbehaviour, send it to ArbCom.

There is meatpuppetry associated with some accounts in your topic areas. That's harder for admins to prove than sockpuppetry.

Get familiar with the tools and methods our checkusers for the behavioural part of their investigations.

You are playing the long game.

Also, you got good advice at WP:ANI - go to WP:FTN. Avoid WP:ANI if another noticeboard will work.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 18:56, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

I think paid exploitation of Wikipedia by political and sectarian interests in South Asia will gradually begin to enter the "hive mind" of regular editors and admins here at the English Wikipedia. Press coverage (by reliable sources) of the problem will help; it gets noticed by WP:The Signpost and offline Wikipedia criticism sites.

That paid editing will get much more pushback then.

If you kept a record of user accounts and diffs offline, it'll be well-received then.

You are playing the long game. Stay cool. Keep editing, albeit carefully. Use impeccable sourcing.

I've seen it with previous efforts by the Chinese, Saudi, Russian and other governments. Eventually these schemes get found out and the reaction is strongly negative. Wikipedians hate this stuff and quickly coalesce in reaction. Abusers and their backers are publicly embarrassed.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:11, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

It's hard to get paid as an editor when your missteps publicly embarrass your employer.

Some editors are playing a pretty good short/medium game and winning because the of the editors and IPs they're opposing aren't playing the long game and don't really know our rules.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

P.S., I know as a technical that fact some of those editors follow this talk page. A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Also, remember in our interactions, I don't take or oppose your "side" editorially. "I'm friendly but not your friend". (I am sympathetic and certainly not your enemy).

Ultimately when I'm online here, my motivation is "what's good for Wikipedia and its readers"

I see a problem for us, hence my advice above.

Hang in there! Stay cool!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:22, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

As I have love for you lastly

O believers! If you are mindful of God, He will grant you a standard ˹to distinguish between right and wrong˺, absolve you of your sins, and forgive you. And Allah (God) is the Lord of infinite bounty.

— Al-Anfal:29

And whoever is mindful of God, He will make a way out for them, and provide for them from sources they could never imagine. And whoever puts their trust in God, then He ˹alone˺ is sufficient for them. Certainly God achieves His Will. God has already set a destiny for everything.... And whoever is mindful of God, He will make their matters easy for them.... And whoever is mindful of God, He will absolve them of their sins and reward them immensely.

— At-Talaq:2-5

In a right way, it is almost of hardship and toil, don't take much that you can not bear, but also don't be much careless that might make you deviated, and always rely on God, because surely He exists and helps for good. Lastly, love again. 202.134.10.130 (talk) 19:49, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:57, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

And lastly, as open, though not related to wikipedia stuff, I shall like to request you, you might go through or not, to study Islam, (I am inviting actually, I didn't want to miss that chance actually after having you a good heart) to study Islamic the scriptural refereces Quran and Hadith translations and scholars of the respective ( you can follow that), I wish something more good to be uncovered in front of you, I think you can try the way to find a more nearness to God as he wishes, actually, and to have yourself more bountiful to help yourself and others. Love again (sister or anything with life I don't know). May Allah (God) give you good rewards/returns (Zajakallah Khairan). 202.134.10.130 (talk) 20:28, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

This means a lot. I would respond more about my own beliefs but my need for anonymity (I real life concerns) and my role here as a sort of neutral referee and editor preclude this.

Remember: stay cool. Learn the rules. References. Civil. Long game!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:34, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

you can study comparatively. That may help to. And thanks. 202.134.10.130 (talk) 20:35, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Kalki Avatar DRV

You pinged me for the second DRV, which you said should speedily closed, but it had been speedily closed by Extraordinary Writ by the time I was editing. I agree that it should have been closed and that the second DRV was tendentious. I don't think that there is anything more for me to say. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Concur!

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:21, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

Format

I find your bullet style and signature formatting to be very difficult to follow. You should keep everything in one line as much as possible including your signature. Iterresise (talk) 05:23, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback about my signature, Iterresise>

This is the first time I've heard this. If anybody else is following this page and has an opinion, feel free to opine. I'm open to more feedback.

I've been putting my sig on a separate line because it's long enough that it often wraps around and that's confusing, too. Perhaps the answer is to just change my sig.

I'll think it over. A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 15:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

I just looked at my comment formatting at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2023 August 29#Population of cities - what a disgraceful mess. Thanks for pointing that out; I've cleaned it up. I'm sure others were annoyed, too.

I think some of that's personal, late night sloppiness on my part and even more, just the perversity of mobile editing. You don't always get to preview edits before making them - it depends on what you're editing. I have no idea why MediaWiki added <nowiki>...</nowiki> tags but I've seen it do that once before.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 15:08, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Final comment: you've gotten a lot of negative feedback over this TfD. I suspect it's discouraging, given the hours you put into preparing your nomination (I saw all your sandbox work).

Hang in there!

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 15:11, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Kalki Avatar and Muhammad

Hello, A. B.,

This is a belated thank you for the work you did, tracking down sources for this article. And for the work you do in all of the AFDs you participate in. I wish we could clone you and have a dozen more "A. B." to participate in deletion discussions but, alas, you are unique. I really pay attention to your comments even when consenus goes a different direction and appreciate how seriously and thoughfully you take your participation in the deletion process. Thanks again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:02, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. This means so much.

That was so unpleasant and it really opened my eyes to big problems with sectarian editing on South Asian topics. I don't know what we as a community are going to do; it's a whole lot bigger than me.

Anyway, thanks so much. I admire your work, too. —A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 19:17, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

And now I came across your comments on Talk:Michael Weinrath! You're even checking out sources and citations for PROD'd articles! You are really going above and beyond what we expect from an editor who is involved in the deletion processes on this project. You are correct there, we have a few editors/admins who are very knowledgeable about appropriate citation rates and credentials for academics but I don't think they pay much attention to Proposed deletions. But we don't get many professors who pass through PROD, they seem to go directly to AFD. PROD draws a lot of small towns and small companies, it seems, a few athletes and some technical hardware. Many thanks again. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:01, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Mostly I work hard to be lazy. I try to "outsource" my work - see my comments at the "Quick question" thread above with Pbritti.

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 21:05, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

ProD

is not really a good reason to remove CSD tag. Besides, I wanted to see if anyone else thought it was "unambiguously promotional." Now I'll never know. 😜 -- Deepfriedokra (talk) 20:22, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Pretty promotional, I’d say. Maybe notable? Don’t know. Left a comment on the talk page.

My desire to punish page spammers struggles with my desire to retain notable material.

As I noted to someone else above, I’m a deletionist at heart just double-checking the waste stream.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 20:51, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Maritime pilots

Hi A. B., I saw your comment about maritime pilots at Greghenderson's talk page. Would you have time to look through the list at Template:List of Sea Captains and Pilots and see which of these people you think do meet notability requirements? I wondering if it is worth doing some kind of group AfD process on those that don't, but would appreciate your insights. Thanks Melcous (talk) 04:08, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

When I get a chance in the next several hours to days.

As a general rule, I’m very wary of bundled AfDs - too many articles and then you get a fragmented discussion to keep some and delete others. I see these big-bundle AfDs go off the rails. I recommend no more than 3 articles at a time and I think they need to be very similar as to the merits of deletion. I recommend saying something about each article in your nomination.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 17:31, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks A. B., appreciate your wisdom. I'm happy to hold off until you get a chance to have a look, thanks. Melcous (talk) 22:30, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lisa_Nakazono

Hi - you've !voted twice on this one, the first time Delete and the second time Keep. Looking at what you've written I suspect the Delete should be struck, but I thought I'd check! Black Kite (talk) 12:30, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Goodness. I'm so confused by the back and forthI bailed out after the 100 comment. Can I !vote to delete the AfD itself?

I'll take another look - it may be later today. I was feeling sympathetic but then there was so much bludgeoning.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 12:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

@Black Kite, methinks they doth protest to much". After going through all that mess I struck my "keep".

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 12:55, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 12

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Solar Eclipse Maestro, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page SBIG.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:58, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Morning

@A. B.: Morning. scope_creep^Talk 08:36, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Good morning!

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 14:18, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Draft:APEX Accelerators

I think you may need to re-read the draft you declined the G11 on. This is written like it is meant to be on the programs brochures. It is 100% a promotional piece, I have a hard time seeing any sentence that isn't promotional. I don't want to waste more people's time in a MfD when it's such a clear cut G11. It may be notable but needs to completely re-written in a neutral factual tone based on reliable sources. McMatter ^(talk)/_(contrib) 20:16, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Request

@A. B.:, I appreciate you to study about Aqeedah, it will help you to learn a lot more, you can read resources from this, thanks. And can I ask you to give any link to contact you outside wikipedia? 202.134.8.129 (talk) 04:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you can send a private email through Wikipedia via a link on my user talk page if you’re using the desktop view of the page.

This service may be limited to registered users.

I will not be able to see your email address. I will reply via the same Wikipedia system if you have a registered account.

I don’t wish to post my email publicly.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 04:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@A. B.:, Sent. Please check. 202.134.8.129 (talk) 05:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

To protect my own privacy (you are, after all, a stranger), I will not reply to you using my personal email account or Facebook. I have already redacted your personal data (email address, Facebook page) and forwarded your emails to ArbCom via the process described at the top of the User:Arbitration Committee page.

—A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 15:01, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

• Can you inform which account this sock used to email you? He is a ban evader and it is necessary to know his all accounts. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 12:03, 14 September 2023 (UTC)