User talk:2009David
Potential conflict of interest
[edit]From time to time I visit Special:Newpages to help out (there's always a backlog) and today came across your new Europe Declaration page. You did a good job on that article: clearly you have expertise and experience in this area, and you were wise to draft it in your sandbox. As you may have noticed, I've done some independent due diligence on sources, and by finding and linking to the ENA description I believe I've strengthened the article – though unfortunately the ENA page doesn't link directly to the text of the declaration. But I was concerned about your use of www.schuman.info in that article and elsewhere. Wikipedia frowns on editors using their sources they control (see WP:SPS & WP:EL#ADV for details); schuman.info doesn't look at all neutral so I will remove references to it when I see them, and I urge you not to add such references to articles in future. If you think this is arbitrary or unfair, please say so here ... I'll watch your talk page until the end of the month in case we need to discuss, or we can canvass the issue more widely via the reliable sources noticeboard if you prefer. All the best - Pointillist (talk) 22:38, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Sources for Robert Schuman
[edit]David, I'm afraid I've hit a problem with all the schuman.info sources you added to the Robert Shuman article recently (diff). Many of these are references to public speeches that are documented elsewhere (e.g. ENA) and there is no need to use your website as a source, but I don't want to delete your link and thus leave the article amost completely unreferenced. I know this will be hard work and not very interesting, but please could you replace these citations with references to independent, authoritative sources? It would be much appreciated! Thanks in advance - Pointillist (talk) 23:19, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your speedy help
[edit]I was impressed with the speed that you confirmed my draft for the 'Europe Declaration' article. It was the first I have done. My thanks also for making additions to form and sources that were helpful.
I understand your philosophy -- which is truly Wikist -- that I should not be involved in self-promotion. I have tried to avoid this. I have placed other material wherever I can. Unfortunately, there is a big lack when it comes to material the beginnings of Europe. Much of the material was suppressed during Gaullist times. I have been researching Robert Schuman and the Community idea -- that de Gaulle violently opposed. Very few academics even cite his published work and I have hardly ever seen any of his speeches quoted. Yet he is the 'Father of Europe', as proclaimed by the European Paliament, the only person to hold this title. Gaullists and others also suppressed the Europe Declaration, which is extremely hard to find in published literature.
I have a large archive of his speeches and texts. I have written a number of books and articles. I have published, for example, at my own expense, the speeches and English translations of Schuman highly important work. I am a former Information Officer at the European Commission and after years of efforts realised that neither the Commission nor the commercial publishers were going to publish them.
In short I agree with your position but I think that the material should be published. Before ENA existed there was an even greater lack. The ENA source is still one of the best in its coverage, but a bit slow and sometimes it is not working -- as today. There are also some problems with this particular translation as the English translator is rather free and uses, for example, the term 'pool' instead of Community.
I was planning to put up a more accurate translation on my own site www.schuman.info where I only have extracts. And then use this text for the Europe Declaration article too. The document is of major importance -- being equivalent to the Declaration of Independence for the Americans -- because it is signed by all the founding fathers and affirms the goal and supranational method that they said was the 'true foundation' for Europe.
If you can find another site with it on, I too would be very happy!!! I have a copy of the Salm/ Hallstein book here and have translated it from that. Contemporary newspapers are among the few alternatives and usually not online.
I think it is very necessary for Wiki to have this text for reference. Do you not agree? Many thanks again for your time and efforts with Wiki. I much appreciate all the work you do behind the scenes, and wish to be as helpful as possible towards the goals of the Wiki project. Best regards David
PS I hope this is the right way to send you a message.
The following is my translation from the best sources I have
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Europe Declaration The President of the Federal Republic of Germany, His Royal Highness the Prince Royal of Belgium, the President of the French Republic, the President of the Italian Republic, Her Royal Highness the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg, Her Majesty, the Queen of The Netherlands, Considering that world peace can only be safeguarded by creative efforts commensurate with the dangers threatening it; Convinced that the contribution that an organized and invigorated Europe can bring to civilization is indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations; Conscious that Europe will not be constructed except by concrete achievements establishing first of all the reality of partnership, and by the establishment of common bases for economic development; Anxious to cooperate through the expansion of their basic products in raising the standard of living and progressing in works of peace; Resolved to transform their age-long rivalry through the amalgamation of their essential interests, and, by the inauguration of an economic Community, to assemble the initial basis for a broader and deeper Community of peoples who had for centuries been opposed in bloody conflicts, and to cast the foundations of institutions capable of providing a direction to a destiny that is henceforward shared, Have decided to create a Community of Coal and Steel. This work that has just been confirmed by our signature, we owe to the wisdom of our delegations and to the perseverance of our experts. We wish to express our deepest thanks to them. Even before the work was set in motion, it had the force of an idea that inspires and awakens an extraordinary degree of hope and confidence in our countries and beyond its borders. By signing the treaty founding the European Community for Coal and Steel Community, a community of 160 million Europeans, the contracting parties give proof of their determination to call the first supranational institution into life, and are consequently creating the true foundation for an organized Europe. This Europe is open to all European nations that can decide freely for themselves. We sincerely hope that other countries will join in our common endeavour. In full awareness of the need to advance this first step by ongoing action in other areas of application to give it its full meaning, we have the hope and the will, that in the same spirit, once this Treaty has been implemented, that the current projects now in preparation will be brought to a successful conclusion. This work will be pursued in conjunction with the existing European bodies. These initiatives, each with clearly defined boundaries, will rapidly form part of a political Community that serves the basic idea expressed in the work of the Council of Europe. This will lead to the coordination and simplification of all the European institutions. All these efforts will be guided by the growing conviction that the countries of free Europe should demonstrate their mutual solidarity and that they have a common destiny. We will strengthen this feeling of the unity of our forces and, through frequent consultations, thus increase our confidence in each other. Herein lies the significance of this day. We have no doubt it will be understood by the public opinion of our countries and by our parliaments, which are called upon to decide on its ratification. The governments represented here together will act as interpreters of our common will to build a peaceful and prosperous Europe. And we will serve it together. |
- David, excuse me for moving your reply and "collapsing" your translation. This was just for ease of reading, as the convention is that discussions on talk pages expand downwards.
- I do sympathise with your frustration, having tried to follow the ENA path to the Europe Declaration which eventually just linked to the Treaty of Paris text. But in terms of conflict of interest on Wikipedia in my opinion you have to choose between being a publisher of material or a wikipedia editor. You can't be both in the same subject-matter domain. You say that as "a former Information Officer at the European Commission... after years of efforts [you] realised that neither the Commission nor the commercial publishers were going to publish them." Let's look at the alternatives to you publishing on your own website:
- Contemporary newspapers, which you said "are among the few alternatives and usually not online", and other contemporary materials. Not being online doesn't matter: if you can provide the main {{cite news}} parameters that is sufficient, and surely you must have access to reference libraries for this. For example, if you have evidence of your former career the Bodleian would probably grant you reading rights to consult material they received as a depositary library of the European Union (under their section 4(c) criterion – just phone them up and ask).
- European NAvigator etc. The broken link is more likely to be error than enemy action – after all, it is a site managed by historians/librarians. You could help them to fix their links.
- Current newspapers. The 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Paris is little more than a year away – perhaps a current publication would like to have the text of the declaration officially sanctioned. You could push for this.
- Academic sites. Surely you have connections with academics in this area from your time as an information officer. Wouldn't one of them be pleased to use you as a research student/assistant/coordinator or whatever?
- In my opinion, it isn't a conflict of interest to push third parties to set up "reliable sources", so long as there is independent editorial/academic oversight of the material. Once these sources exist, you must of course use them neutrally and objectively in Wikipedia. If that basis works for you I am sure you will be a really useful and happy contributor here. - Pointillist (talk) 00:53, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
thanks again, I will take your advice
[edit]Thanks for your speedy attention to the question. I will put as many of the original sources I have online. They are not easily accessible to online users and are often from old French or German newspapers and books -- which I tried to avoid. I have in mind the students /school kids who may use Wiki and usually want instant online viewing. That is why I referred to my translations on the Schuman site for the full text. I always refer to a checkable document. I will look over the contributions and see if I can add more details of the original. At the moment -- for example when the speeches are not published -- I will have to refer to the archive sometimes in provincial town, like Metz rather than London, Paris or Oxford. I think it would be good also to 'internationalize' the reader.
As for the ENA problems, may I suggest the following. ENA is the only alternative easy-access source for the documents, and it is often broken. My experience is that it could last a few days at least, maybe several months. There is also a potential copyright problem, according to their labels.
I have the Europe Declaration on www.schuman.info/EuropeDeclaration.htm in English
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The President of the Federal Republic of Germany, His Royal Highness the Prince Royal of Belgium, the President of the French Republic, the President of the Italian Republic, Her Royal Highness the Grand Duchess of Luxembourg, Her Majesty, the Queen of The Netherlands, Considering that world peace can only be safeguarded by creative efforts commensurate with the dangers threatening it; Convinced that the contribution that an organized and invigorated Europe can bring to civilization is indispensable to the maintenance of peaceful relations; Conscious that Europe will not be constructed except by concrete achievements establishing first of all the reality of partnership, and by the establishment of common bases for economic development; Anxious to cooperate through the expansion of their basic products in raising the standard of living and progressing in works of peace; Resolved to transform their age-long rivalry through the amalgamation of their essential interests, and, by the inauguration of an economic Community, to assemble the initial basis for a broader and deeper Community of peoples who had for centuries been opposed in bloody conflicts, and to set the foundations of institutions capable of providing a direction to a destiny that is henceforward shared, Have decided to create a European Coal and Steel.Community This work that has just been confirmed by our signature, we owe to the wisdom of our delegations and to the perseverance of our experts. We are deeply grateful to them. Even before the work was set in motion, the very idea that was its inspiration had already aroused in our countries and beyond its borders an extraordinary surge of hope and confidence. In signing the treaty founding the European Community for Coal and Steel Community, a community of 160 million Europeans, the contracting parties give proof of their determination to call the first supranational institution into life, and consequently create the true foundation for an organized Europe. This Europe is open to all European nations that can decide freely for themselves. We sincerely hope that other countries will join in our common endeavour. In full awareness of the need to reveal the significance of this first step by sustained action in other sectors, we have the hope and the will in the same spirit that presided in the elaboration of this Treaty, to bring the current projects now in preparation to a successful conclusion. The work will be pursued in conjunction with the existing European bodies. These initiatives, each with their particular objective, should rapidly take their place within the framework of a European Political Community, the concept of which is being elaborated in the Council of Europe. This should result in the coordination and simplification of the European institutions as a whole. All these efforts will be guided by the growing conviction that the countries of free Europe are inter-dependent and that they share a common destiny. We will strengthen this sentiment by combining our energies and our determination, and bringing our work into harmony through frequent consultations and building ever-increasing trust through our contacts. Herein lies the significance of this day. We have no doubt its importance will be understood by the public opinion of our countries and by our parliaments, who are called to decide on its ratification. The governments that are represented here together will act as interpreters of our common will to build a peaceful and prosperous Europe. And we will serve it together. The declaration was signed by Konrad Adenauer (West Germany), Paul van Zeeland, Joseph Meurice (Belgium), Robert Schuman (France), Count Sforza (Italy) Joseph Bech (Luxembourg), Dirk Stikker and J. R. M. van den Brink (The Netherlands). |
Is it permissible to give the full text on Wiki, remove my schuman site reference, and leave the ENA reference for when they get the repairs done. That way the reader can check with the French original -- which is a public document -- when the ENA machine is up an running. Thus impartiality and cross checking is assured. Any corrections etc can be made by third parties. I hope this is acceptable. The public can thus have a reliable source of information.
A second solution would be for someone else to translate the obviously vitally important Europe Declaration independently and accurately. Of course I have absolutely no objection to that. I can send the French original.
- My feeling is that if material is important, someone official should be archiving, and perhaps already is. Have you tried the EUI archive? If no luck there, universities are the best place find citable archives and people who would like to improve their coverage. Try searching for "History of the European Union site:ac.be" (or site:ac.uk etc) to find likely contacts. If you think there is some institutional unwillingness to archive this material, perhaps this chap might be interested as it seems to be one of his research areas. - Pointillist (talk) 16:24, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Speedy deletion nomination of User:2009David/Europe Declaration
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