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Hello אקראי אחר! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Hipal/Ronz (talk) 17:12, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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A lengthy welcome

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Welcome to Wikipedia. I've added a welcome message to the top of this page that gives a great deal of information about Wikipedia. I hope you find it useful.

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Paleo diet

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I see you take interest in the paleo diet. Who in your opinion was the first author to advocate the paleo diet? Let me know. I have not been able to trace it before Emmet Densmore, Arnold DeVries and Richard Mackarness. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:04, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is an interesting question, but I never really looked into it since I'm more interested in the contemporary evidence on paleo diet & lifestyle, so I won't be much help. That said, personally I consider Weston A. Price the father of paleo , but apparently his publishing (1939) indeed came a lot after these guys. אקראי אחר (talk) 15:24, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Emmet Densmore wrote some books in the 1890s describing something similar to the paleo diet, Arnold Devries wrote his book in 1952 so Weston Price might be useful to be put in the historical section of the article (I will look into this). I have not been able to purchase Devries book because its rare but if I do I will upload it online. Densmore did not oppose milk consumption and neither did Price. Can you consume any dairy at all on the paleo diet? Not from the sources I have read but some of these historical authors did not entirely oppose it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, nice to know I'm of help. Too bad you haven't known Price's work, it's absolutely fascinating! Here's a link. He traveled around the world to study traditional and contemporary societies and study their health. He found that the traditional societies had virtually no dental cavities, and more interestingly, perfect teeth arches and no problems with wisdom teeth. Obviously they had no dental caries because of no processed sugar consumption, but what about their dental arches? The leading hypothesis today is that a soft diet is the cause for bad dental arches - that the teeth need a level of stimulus while growing, that is not achieved by soft diets. Here's a few sources (there's A LOT more but I'm lazy).
He also had fascinating findings about another topic - cancer. He wrote:
Dr. Josef Romig, a surgeon [of Anchorage] of great skill and with an experience among the Eskimos and Indians, both the primitives and modernized, extending over thirty-six years … stated that in his thirty-six years of contact with these people he had never seen a case of malignant disease among the truly primitive Eskimos and Indians, although it frequently occurs when they become modernized”
“In their native state they have exceedingly little disease. Dr. J. R. Nimmo, the government physician in charge of the supervision of this group, told me in his thirteen years with them he had not seen a single case of malignancy, and had seen only one that he had suspected might be malignancy among the entire four thousand native population. He stated that during this same period he had operated several dozen malignancies for the white population, which numbers about three hundred. He reported that among the primitive stock other affections requiring surgical interference were rare”.
Obviously those are just 2 doctors in the 1930's, but nonetheless it's still very interesting. There's a more credible source that estimates that 90%-95% of cancers are preventable, so Price's writing may be very accurate.
And I didn't even read the book, I just saw it cited in other places. It might hide a lot of other peculiar stuff.
About milk - every paleo source I've seen to date restricted it, scientific and not. But I've come across an interesting hypothesis a few days ago, that some hunter-gatherers have drank the milk of mammals they hunted. Though I saw in a Youtube comment section (lol), so I wouldn't say it's reliable, and anyways it would probably equal to a few litters per month TOPS.
BTW, by trying to find Devries' work in Archive.org I came across this book, which might be of interest to you (thought I couldn't find anything else about the book or author so it wasn't influential). אקראי אחר (talk) 17:43, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the info about Price, I am mostly interested in historical dieting ideas. I had heard of Price but never really looked into his life or research. Over the years I have read about some of his followers who unfortunately became associated with various pseudoscientific ideas that were not held by Price. The modern Weston A. Price Foundation have a lot of fringe views (promoting homeopathy, anti-vaccination, anti-veganism, ban soy etc). They also promote raw milk. I think I am at odds with what they stand for mostly (I don't understand why anyone would want to drink raw milk, lol). It seems the Weston A. Price Foundation are promoting a lot of views that Weston Price never had. I totally agree with opposing processed sugar consumption.
Yeah it seems like unfortunately the foundation is stuck in the 50's, and his findings got extrapolated. I did ctrl+F for "vacc" (in vaccines) and other synonyms I found and could not find any results in his book, he probably didn't even talk about 'em. From the little I read he seemed like a fine scientist. I don't think he would agree with these notions would he live today.
You might be interested in Harry Campbell (physician), he wrote a book What is Wrong With British Diet?, he seemed to be saying similar things to Price and was linking processed cereals and sugar to dental disease. I can't find any info on Dorothy Shirley Simpson unfortunately, but thanks for the book link. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As I said I'm not that interested in paleo lifestyle history, but that guy blew me off! He was so ahead of his time man. He precisely hypothesized about the importance of microbiomes back in 1903 (funny and amazing to see this next to "THE TREATMENT OF GOITRE BY THE USE OF DISTILLED OR RAIN WATER"). Also his advocacy of chewing and natural food for teeth health. And primitive diets (for a change a quite accurate description of them )... Amazing. Even if paleo diets are ultimately proven to be less effective that others (which current research doesn't indicate), he is still a pioneer. Thanks for telling me about him. אקראי אחר (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the paper on cancer you cite which estimates that 90%-95% of cancers are preventable, it claims that "cancer prevention requires smoking cessation, increased ingestion of fruits and vegetables, moderate use of alcohol, caloric restriction, exercise, avoidance of direct exposure to sunlight, minimal meat consumption, use of whole grains, use of vaccinations, and regular check-ups." This is all common advice but few people practice every one of those things. On an unrelated topic, just out of interest what do you think about vegetarian or vegan paleo advocates? Or do you think that is a contradiction? Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:53, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, unfortunately it's pretty obvious we're (and our parents) are some of the worst threats for health.
About plant based:Manifest part: My philosophy for health is that we should strive to live as naturally (being of the period when our genes were created) as possible, until proven otherwise. So that's why I don't try to run from jaguars in my free time (been proven to be dangerous), support vaccines and vitamin K shots (proven to be healthy), but don't really give a crap about a lot of what nutritionist say - for example, when they ought to see if whole grains are healthy, they would probably compare it to a bad diet devoid of whole grains, and surprise surprise, you got that whole grains are healthy. I would be convinced only if they prove it's better than the natural alternatives. Now you can claim that we are fully adopted to the agricultural period, but nearly all RCTs to date show that a paleo diet is better than any agricultural "healthy" alternative. So in accordance I think the 'naturally' part refers to pre-agricultural times.
Actual answer part: Well, a good thing about my philosophy is that it lets me get away with pretty minimal research, I really care only about diet research comparing to paleo. So I'm def not the right person to talk meat about. There is no proof (I know of) that vegan/vegetarian diets are better than paleo diets, nor any traditional community without meat intake, so regular paleo diets are def the safer option for me. That said, I do think the important of meat is overstated in the paleo community. We know of communities like the Kitavans that were very healthy and consumed little meat (but on a regular basis). From Lindeberg: "Cultivated boiled tubers (yam, taro, sweet potato) are staples, providing an estimated 50-70% of the diet by weight, supplemented by fruits (banana,papaya, pineapple, mango, guava, watermelon,pumpkin), leaves, nuts (COCO, okari), fish, tapioca, maize and beans. Fish is eaten 2-4 times a week (roughly 100-300 g per person:some 1300 varieties). Chicken, eggs, sea-eels. octopus, shellfish, turtles, flying foxes, pork, gwadila (a fruit), breadfruit, sugarcane, pandanus nuts, pomelo, mushrooms and some other items are each eaten less than once a week". So it is def possible to consume a paleo diet with low amounts of meat. But a paleo diet without meat at all is technically a contradiction, and I would wait for RCTs before safely saying it's healthy.
Also, a vegan/vegetarian paleo sounds very restrictive, unless you're blessed by a good local market or divine cooking skills. But on the contrary, a whole food plant based seems to work rather well for a lot of people, so I don't think a paleo plant based would be that bad, if people can manage to get their nutrients. IIRC (too lazy to search) there was also evidence of pretty high levels of atherosclerosis and osteoporosis in inuits (that consume lots of meat), compared with other traditional populations. So maybe even in people with genetic history of high meat consumption, natural selection hasn't quite caught up (as with agriculture). One must also consider that the typical supermarket meat today is very different from what it was in paleolithic times, as opposed to plants that stayed similar. A plant-based diet is obviously morally and environmentally better, so if people can find a way to combine that with the what might be the best diet template on earth it would be awesome. אקראי אחר (talk) 21:54, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for describing your philosophy. I noticed you listed sweet potato which are allowed on a paleo diet but some do not eat them. The paleo diet is less restrictive than I thought. I can see how being healthy is entirely possible on a paleo diet which does not restrict certain fruits or vegetables like the batshit insane carnivore diet which says dairy and meat only. I think there are actually some agreements between veganism and paleo, especially on the non-dairy issue. I have never encountered anyone in real life eating a paleo diet, would you say it is increasing? I would like to see some more peer reviewed data on paleo diets published but it appears to be lacking recently. I personally do not eat meat but as you are on a paleo diet where do you get your meat? BTW Mark Hyman has tried to combine both elements from paleo and vegan, he calls it the pegan diet, he has a new book coming out in 2021 "The Pegan Diet: Combine Paleo and Vegan to Stay Fit, Happy and Healthy for Life". I will have to give that book a read. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For some reason the paleo diet got associated with a LCHF diet (maybe because a lot of people adopted it because they had problems with dairy, grains and legumes), but as you saw it can be very high in carbs and still produce healthy results (most Kitavans actually smoked, nonetheless they were much healthier than the average Swedish & European). Probably most paleo diets until we came out of Africa were a veggie-fest (though I never seriously researched this topic). The original 1985 paper estimated an average of 45grams of fiber/day, and a later 1997 study estimated about 100g/day - that's A LOT. Honestly, a big part of the paleo community seems pretty ignorant (I'm not a saint either), I try to only listen to folks who seems to have a minimal understanding of the science, anthropology etc. And if we look at history, the truly restrictive diet is the agricultural one... While agriculturalists had a few crops, milk and few types of meat to live on, hunters-gatherers got this huge variety of meats, fruit, tubers, nuts, seeds leaves and veggies. We are just extremely fortunate to live in this specific time where technology allowed each person access to a big variety of crops and foodstuff, and before climate change fucks our agriculture and forces us to give up a lot of them. But also unlucky to live in a period where paleo foodstuff mostly have less availability.
I don't know if I would call the carnivore diet batshit insane lol. It's an indication of the failure of the system to educate and produce good nutritional guidelines, and again, ignorance. It might be better than the nutritional guidelines for people whose ancestors consumed primarily meat, but if everyone consumed it that would def result in a disaster.
The serious sources I've seen on the paleo diet obviously agree with veganism about dairy, and most also agree on the importance on plants in the diet.
I got a little collection of paleo studies in Zotero (personal favorites are the meta-analysis', ones on liver fat and all the RCTs), but i never systematically searched or something, I just keep interesting & relevant ones. The paleo diet's website also got a nice collection, out of 3 anti-paleo trials I know I found 2 in there so it's probably not cherry picked. But as with everything, the most reliable thing is to do your own research. I don't know if the paleo diet is increasing or not, I've been involved only for 1.5Y and I don't care much for most of the community, but according to google trends it's decreasing. I think the inaccurate & biased Wikipedia article def has to do with this, pretty much why I'm pissed of it (but editing it is paaain... so much arguing). Thankfully, it doesn't seem like the research is slowing down.
Actually I'm not really on the paleo diet, I just think it's the best diet for health (at least right now). But I'm willing to trade some of my health with comfort. The only foodstuff I really try to avoid are liquid dairies (they're crazy insulinogenic and stimulate other growth factors. Besides the obvious shitload of diseases, it also means it promotes aging - see mTOR and DAF-2). The rest I just try to not over-consume. Most paleo supporters I see can't stand the usually monotonous food, so they either know how to cook, do similar to me or resort to "paleo" bullcrap like brownies and cookies. So considering my circumstances I at least consume whole-foods with low insulin index. So same with meat, I just eat supermarket meat. I live in Israel, I'm pretty sure there's no market for grass-fed beef or things like that. Maybe it's possible to get some from Arab shepherds.
Hyman's book seems interesting, hope he will have some interesting research. אקראי אחר (talk) 13:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've just seen a book that might interest you: Ketotarian: The (Mostly) Plant-Based Plan to Burn Fat, Boost Your Energy, Crush Your Cravings, and Calm Inflammation: A Cookbook. While, as I said, an actual paleo diet our ancestors ate will probably seldom be a keto diet, keto should mean no grains, legumes, dairy, so this should be almost-paleo plant-based - very cool! אקראי אחר (talk) 20:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the book, I have just looked of the views of Mark Hyman and Will Cole the author of Ketotarian, and I disagree with what the authors are claiming. The Ketogenic diet is used to treat epilepsy in children. There is no scientific evidence it is effective for weight-loss or anything else ( I know you will dispute that, lol). I am not convinced about it, and the idea of a plant based high-fat diet makes no sense, those authors are not actually vegan or vegetarian they eat meat and eggs, so a vegan paleo diet does probably not exist. Hyman seems to be promoting a 75% plant based diet, he has no problem with eating beef and he tells his readers to load up on eggs as does Will Cole. I do agree with their criticisms of the dairy industry and yours. But for me the idea to put your body into a state of ketosis by relying on high-fat is damaging in the long-term. It's been well established that saturated fat intake increases the risk of heart disease (there is 40 years of peer reviewed science that demonstrates this). All these people on the Atkins diet, Keto-diet, carnivore diet and other high-fat diets what happens is that when they get older in their 60s and 70s they have a high-risk of heart disease and stroke. I have known people to die on those diets, they are stupid. You don't see 90 or 100 year old people living on a high-fat diet, lol. The highest life-expectancy in the world is in Hong Kong and Japan, they eat a diet of rice, cooked and pickled vegetables and small amounts of fish. Their diet is basically semi-vegetarian. If you look at the Okinawa diet it is 85% carbs. I do not think the Paleo diet is high-fat, although it can be.

I appreciate you uploading those paleo diet scientific papers. WP:MEDRS however will not allow primary papers on here. I have found a systematic review that should be uploaded to the paleo diet Wikipedia article. I will create a section on this. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:07, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31041449/ is a paper on your list. It passes MEDRS. It can be cited on the article, I made a request for that. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry lol, I don't support the keto diet. Honestly I barely know anything about the it, as I said my health philosophy allows me to get away with little research (doesn't that kind of make sense? that you don't have to review countless papers about every diet and food before deciding what to eat. Not to embrace ignorance, but hunter-gather way of life has already proven itself to be extremely healthy, at least in the sense of being virtually devoid of chronic disease. So it's really only left to check if the science finds downside/alternatives to such a way of life). The kitavans seemed to be on perfect health, possibly more than inuits, on a pretty high carb diet. So I really don't see a reason to restrict yourself like that unless you have a medical condition. About the book: I just saw it had good reviews so I assumed vegetarians found it useful, and since it's keto I though it won't have much grains, legumes and dairy. You expressed interest in the "pegan diet" and I though it will be pretty much that.
Also don't worry, I'm not a saturated fat denialist (though I never really looked at the literature). But according to our understanding, PUFAs and MUFAs act in contrast to that, right? So if for example I decided to eat 90% Brazil nuts on my diet (ignoring the selenium), current science predicts my CVD risk won't increase right?
Thanks for requesting the paper man (or woman). Nice to have someone that doesn't automatically dispute anything pro-paleo I say. Wikipedia's policy on primary sources seems odd to me, at least in subject with relatively little research such as the paleo diet. I mean, obviously they will be less accurate than secondary & tertiary sources, but nothing is 100%, and a lot of primary research is still very important. Throwing them out the window is a weird way to deal with that.
Another thing I question is the "there is no good evidence that the paleo diet X". Wouldn't it be better to write what a study did find, instead of what it didn't? So for example replacing that with "there is low-quality evidence that the paleo diet X" or "there is evidence that [...], although it wasn't conclusive".
And then there's the "side effects can include weakness, diarrhea, and headaches". Now it seems completely probable - you leave 3 food groups out of your menu, your body's gonna take time to adapt. If I had a blog or something about the paleo diet, I would include it, the people deserve to know. So I don't want it out of the article. But it's coming from a primary source, and not just any primary source, MDPI. But in the article, it's cited to a secondary source, that cites the original paper for this claim. I mean, it dos add credibility, but it still seems like some legal bullshit a lawyer will do. Well, I guess Wikipedia editors are like lawyers lol אקראי אחר (talk) 18:09, 10 July 2020 (UTC) @Psychologist Guy:[reply]

Sorry for the slow reply been busy recently. But on the topic of fat let me just point out the obvious that fat is vital for the brain and health of the body. The human brain is about 60% fat. But it is all healthy fat, such as omega-3s and omega-6s not saturated fat. Omega-3 fatty acids are a type of polyunsaturated fat. This is the good type of fat the body needs. Its been proven that consuming this type of fat (omega-3s) have beneficial effects on cardiovascular disease (CVD) outcomes, decreasing the risk of heart disease or stroke. A good mainstream link is here [1] "In countries where people eat more oily fish, such as in the Mediterranean, Greenland and Japan, fewer people have heart disease compared to countries where people eat very little oily fish, such as the UK." This is fact, but very few people listen to this. Saturated fat is the enemy of mankind, as is sugar. The Low-carb high-fat and Keto people get the sugar thing right, that processed carbs are harmful but what they get wrong is their obsession with saturated fat. No matter what they say, eating loads of saturated fat is not good for health. It will kill you in the long-run. People on this diet in their 70s have cancer, dementia, heart attacks or strokes. There is a strong link between the impact of dietary fats on brain function. People eating a lot of saturated fat have a much higher risk of dementia.

The vegans get it right, saturated fat is bad for you but many of them seem to be loading up on too many processed carbs and they don't the right amount of omega-3s. The Paleo diet is against processed sugar which is great for me but can be high in saturated fat which I don't like. The best paleo would be one low in saturated fat. Fish high in omega-3 are by default low in saturated fat. So I think the healthiest paleo diet would be to eat a shit load of fish, avoid meat, sugar and processed junk, avoid dairy. That's basically what I do. I only consume 1 animals product and its obvious what one that it is. Is my diet paleo? No not really. It's 'semi-vegan' maybe (I was a vegetarian for years, and still call myself that but these are all just silly terms). You want the healthiest people on the planet? They don't eat red meat, dairy but plenty of fish. That's what science has discovered. Very few follow this in the west. The link between dairy consumption and prostate cancer is robust. You talk about brazil nuts, they can be very dangerous in excess because of selenium poisoning, I avoid them but I don't think they would increase a CVD risk.

The pegan diet thing interested me I do appreciate the book suggestion I will still buy it, but it is not a vegan diet or even a semi-vegan diet, it confused me it as it involves a lot of animal products high in saturated fat which I avoid. I thought it was going to be some kind of synthesis of paleo and vegan but it isn't really. I don't eat most animal products (only 1) so I take interest in 'semi-vegan' diets but do not fall into any camp. The high-fat keto people are the worst offenders for me. I get on with most vegans.

If you want people devoid of chronic disease then when it comes to dieting it's basically people eating fresh whole foods and keeping active. Processed junk foods are the problem. I spoke to a martial arts expert and former bodybuilder he has been all around the world and spoken to thousands of different people, he found the most healthiest people in limited pockets all around the globe but they all had one thing in common eating fresh or whole foods straight up, avoiding processed nonsense and especially refined sugars. These folk are all doing well in their 70s, 80s and 90s with little to no health issues at all.

I have debunked a lot of fad diets on Wikipedia. If you play the game on this website and do edits that represent mainstream consensus on diet and health your edits will be accepted here. That's what my edits do, I don't bring my own research onto this website onto articles, so some of what you see above will not be reflected in my edits on the mainspace. I think the paleo diet has become a fad diet, but it doesn't have to be, the same with a low-carb diet. These diets seem to have a lot of idiotic people making bogus or pseudoscientific claims about them. I know you seek justice for paleo and you want fad diet or various criticisms removed from Wikipedia but this is a website that represents mainstream diet and nutritional science. It's not worth getting banned over edit warring. My advice is to live and let be. Your the first user I have spoken to in this length about dieting, I appreciate the chat. Feel free to upload a personal email to your account, you could email me off-site. I will be busy over the next few weeks so won't be able to respond here in detail. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:07, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My email is alamo2914@gmail.com. Lots of good points here. It will take me a bit to write a well thought response. Until then: if George Carlin would be alive today, do you think that he would be a paleo advocate? אקראי אחר (talk) 21:06, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, he didn't trust governments for shit, so he wouldn't give a crap for their nutritional recommendations. He 'didn't love' fat people, I imagine he would get infuriated when they inevitably tell him dietary advice, that will probably be "drink milk and eat whole grains"... He said "question everything". And he seemed to have that "old school" mentality, when he talked about how we shouldn't fear germs so much. He's a perfect match!

I don't care about what any comedian thinks about diet, but it's a fun thought.

I wrote a response in Google docs, importing it to Wikipedia will take too much time. Next time I'll use that sandbox thing, but for now: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1SweVgsSeDrcnVRFhBEQ0SP_D9ARqpZdZ-f33V8zdQkY/edit?usp=sharing אקראי אחר (talk) 18:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Il drop you an email. Not sure if you are interested in joining this, but thought I would invite anyway! Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello אקראי אחר:

Thank you for your contributions to veganism – or vegetarianism – related articles. I'd like to invite you to join WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a WikiProject to improve veganism and vegetarianism articles on Wikipedia and coverage of these topics.

If you would like to participate or join, please visit the project page for more information. Thanks! Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:58, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your invite, but I'm not interested. If there's any article related to the environmental impact of meat you think is incomplete I'll be glad to help, because I find this topic particularly interesting. But I'm really not knowledgeable on any of this. אקראי אחר (talk) 18:28, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

September 2020

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You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Paleolithic diet; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

  1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
  2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Alexbrn (talk) 22:22, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the heads up
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