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Congratulations

from user talk:ikip

It has closed as a de facto delete, with the article being blanked and protected. Please take a look at Comparison between Roman and Han Empires/Draft.Teeninvestor (talk) 16:38, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I have NEVER in four years seen a AFD close this way. Fabulous job. You should thank the closer of the AFD with a barnstar, found here: WP:Barnstar. At first I moved it to your user space, to avoid it being deleted immediately, then I saw the afd and realized that it was stubified.
I would go to some wikiprojects for help, it will be hard to find editors to find editors as interested as you, but you can try.
Before moving the article to main space again, I would actually work with the "MA" editor who supported deletion and get his opinion, also the AFD closer. The more people you talk to and get involved, the better chance the article has of being saved.
Before moving the article to main space, email me too. Ikip 23:21, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Barnstar

The Article Rescue Barnstar
This barnstar is awarded to User:Teeninvestor for making the unprecedented closure of Comparison between Roman and Han Empires possible, despite enormous odds. You work gives hope to all editors who try to save articles. You are an inspiration to all wikipedians. Ikip 23:24, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I was hoping to interview at least two editors for the next Article Rescue Squadron newsletter.

Here is the interview from our first issue to give you an idea of what it is like:

After the incredible and inspiring result of Comparison between Roman and Han Empires, and all the work you put into it, would you be interested in being interviewed?

I could e-mail you the questions, or we could make a special page on wiki for the questions. Ikip 23:35, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

User:Teeninvestor/Comparison between Roman and Han Empires/Draft

It seems that the history of the page is split in two places, that above (which you've just changed to a redirect) and Wikipedia:Article Incubator:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. I'd recommend asking an admin to merge the page histories. That way, when the article is eventually moved back into main space the history shouldn't be too jumbled. I'd do it myself, but I've not merged page histories before and now isn't the time to start experimenting. Nev1 (talk) 16:34, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Teen, you could do this yourself. Ikip 19:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
History merges require admin tools (unless by "do this yourself", you mean ask rather than perform the history merge). Nev1 (talk) 20:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Note, I deliberately did not move the article history because the point was to start a new article from scratch. Unfortunately, some people decided to ignore the suggestion and start from an already tainted position. Spartaz Humbug! 20:53, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations you are now part of the Wikipedia:Article Rescue Squadron/Hall of Fame

See the medal, hovering above your talk page? Congratulations. Make sure to move this award to your user page when you archive this section.


Ikip 19:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Interview

Here are the first initial questions:

I am trying to find a veteran editor too interview also, so there maybe two interviews in this newsletter.

There will be follow up questions and more controversial (interesting) questions soon.

Ikip 20:50, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind my editing on the interview. I shortened, clarified, and removed words like "deletionist" etc. which may make the project look bad to the larger audience who will read it. I really like what you wrote. I would like to shorten it even more, but all of it is so good, I don't know what else to compress. :) Let me know what you think. Ikip 05:13, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

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Economic history of China (pre-1911) copy-edit request

Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Baffle gab1978's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Baffle gab1978 (talk) 10:11, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi again Teen, just to inform you, someone has re-introduced deleted material into the article in the header section; you may wish to check this out because I know you'd removed it during the recent review. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 15:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLVI (December 2009)

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On Military History of China

Hi Teeinvestor,
I'm here to ask for more information on the stirrup. You sourced Griffith when you claimed that the stirrup was invented during the Warring States and revolutionized warfare. However, according to my sources the stirrup was only invented during the Eastern Han, and that was still just something you use to get onto a horse, not something you use to ride it. Thus I don't believe that it's important enough to start a "military revolution". However, the stirrup during the Age of Fragmentation is similar to modern stirrups, and some say that this helped introduce heavy cavalry into China. Of course, I don't know what Griffith actually said so some info on this would be welcome.
I would also like to point out how the article paints the Qing dynasty as a dynasty that had no military advancements whatsoever, and the Ming is this progressive dynasty that was bound to be technologically savvy. Although true to a degree, I would like to point out that the exact same condition is true for late Ming as well. For most sources, should the Ming have continued, it would only mirror the fate of the Qing dynasty. I would like to point out this source. http://www.oslo2000.uio.no/program/papers/m1b/m1b-dicosmo.pdf

It shows how the Qing tried to improve gunpowder weapons as well, though it inevitably lagged behind.

Last but not least, I question the validity of the "Equipment Section", as it generalizes the Chinese army into one similar to those of the Song dynasty. However, each dynasty (or even periods within dynasties) can contain vastly different armies that simply cannot be generalized as such. For example, the "cavalry" section certainly isn't true for the Han dynasty while the Infantry section isn't true for the Warring States. In fact, the part about having weapons that could "cut through" any other weapon simply isn't technologically possible for any dynasty. The only weapon that fits the definition would be lightsabers. Any weapon, no matter how sharp or sturdy, usually cannot just "cut through" any weapon of worth.

Gnip (talk) 12:16, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yet the sentence right after the quote you gave said the entire thing was "speculative". Anyway, my intention isn't to erase the fact that gunpowder technology lagged during the Qing. I just want to note that the trend already started to happen during the late Ming. I'm hoping to flesh out the article a little bit. The article seems to make some sweeping generalizations on the Equipments section. In the future I'm hoping to resolve this by putting the army makeup into the dynastic sections instead. There are also some places where there are examples labeled without sources or used suspiciously (for example, I doubt the Sun Tzu's Art of War would talk about the Tang dynasty), in which I hope you could help me with (considering the Li/Zheng source is in Chinese while it's hard for me to improve a statement that never stated its source). In the future I'm planning to add sources from Osprey, Cosmo, Needham, and Liang Jie Ming's siege weapon sight. Gnip ([User talk:Gnip|talk]]) 4:12, 13 January 2010

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Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter

The Article Rescue Squadron Newsletter
Issue 2 (January 2010)

Previous issue | Next issue

Content

Barnstar

Wikipedia Motivation Award Wikipedia Motivation Award
The Motivation Barnstar is awarded to users who do wonders in motivating other Wikipedians

Thank you for all of your hard work in promoting wikiproject Article Rescue Squadron, it was a pleasure to work with you. Keep up the good work when I am gone. Your tenacity and intelligence may one day earn you the trust of the community to become an administrator. Maybe the three of you who where featured in issue number two could do issue number three in my absence. Ikip 08:20, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

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Hi

Please have a look and add content:War of Internet Addiction Arilang talk 00:44, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

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Your input

Your input would be appreciated at Talk:Qing_and_Yuan_Dynasties_debate#Propose_for_deletion [sic] initiated by LLTimes (talk · contribs) since you appear to be interested in solving the problems in "Qing and Yuan Dynasties debate" article. --LLTimes (talk) 06:52, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

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你好!

好久不见. :)

Somehow the fact that Tenmei was banned and now needs a mentor does not surprise me. I've never met anyone who could rant so incessantly about the same topic for hours on end. He could write a book with all the space he used! Lol.

As for Comparisons between Rome and Han, I like the current suggestion that the article should be about the modern academic study of the comparison between these two civilizations. I've made that clear on the incubator talk page. Speaking of Rome and Han, I've recently set my sights on rewriting the article for the Parthian Empire, truly the key player between Han and Rome. You can take a look at the notes I've started to compile at User:PericlesofAthens/Sandbox Parthian Empire. To me it seems very strange that the existing contemporary sources for the subsequent Sassanid Empire are so much richer and abundant than those of the Parthian era. Much of Parthian history has been preserved via external sources, such as through Greek (i.e. Seleucid), Roman (including Greek Romans), and Chinese historians (mostly Sima Qian's descriptions of the diplomatic exchanges between Han and Parthia). It's a damn good thing the Parthians minted a different coin for each king (complete with a raised, Greek-style bust), otherwise the chronological succession of each ruler would be hazy at best.

Take care and good luck with the SAT!

--Pericles of AthensTalk 17:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Hi, been long time since last time talking to you, how is your study? Please have a look at this, might be interesting:

http://club.kdnet.net/newbbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=1&star=9&replyid=5817667&id=3002628&skin=0&page=1

文章提交者：monachus 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net

汉语的缺陷 及给中国文化的影响早有定论，为民族自尊的原因而只在学术界小范围内讨论。


1 语言，语法不精确，导致 不能建 立有清晰内涵和外延界定的抽象概念。 而概念的缺乏直接干扰中国文化逻辑学的产生。自然也就没有逻辑思维了。

2 象形文字没有进一步转为字母化的符号体系。缺乏丰富的符号体系来表征抽象概念，符号工具的缺乏使得中国古代数学家已经非常接近微积分，而最终无法创造微积 分的原因， 符号对概念的抽象替代-“算符”。也是现代量子力学的基石。

3 长期接触图像化的象形文字，使中国人的大脑长于形象思维， 弱于抽象思维。长于艺术，文学，人际关系，弱于自然科学，法律。

文章提交者：monachus 加帖在 猫眼看人 【凯迪网络】 http://www.kdnet.net

符号不仅可以代表概念，还可以代表概念之间由逻辑关系而形成的一个相对固定的结合体，量子力学中的算符就起这种功能

丰富的符号体系造就现 代科学。

象形文字的汉字让中国人无法形成符号体系。

另外， 音形不联系的汉字难学难记， 没有三年艰苦的学习难以读书看报，中国的文盲数量比例非常高。

而表音体系能说即能读， 儿童可以更早的接触文字信息，智力开发也更早。

汉 字难学 ，使得儿童接触同样数量的文字信息比表音文字教育体系下的儿童有1-2年的迟滞，而这1-2年的迟滞对智力发育带来的危害非常大。 Arilang talk 06:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

How about this:

http://wikilivres.info/wiki/%E6%9D%A8%E6%8C%AF%E5%AE%81%E6%8C%87%E7%82%B9%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E4%BC%A0%E7%BB%9F%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%EF%BC%9A%E4%B8%AD%E5%8C%BB%E5%92%8C%E3%80%8A%E6%98%93%E7%BB%8F%E3%80%8B%E7%BB%93%E5%90%88%E6%B2%A1%E6%9C%89%E5%89%8D%E9%80%94

归纳与推演都是近代科学中不可缺少的思维方法。为说明此点让我们看一下Maxwell（1831-1879）创建Maxwell方程的历史。Maxwell是十九世纪最伟大的物理学家，他在十九世纪中叶写了3篇论文，奠定了电磁波的准确结构，从而改变了人类的历史。二十世纪所发展出来的无线电、电视、网络通讯等等，统统都基于Maxwell方程式。Maxwell's equations

  • 第一，《易经》影响了中华文化中的思维方式，而这个影响是近代科学没有在中国萌芽的重要原因之一，这也是我之所以对于《易经》发生兴趣的原因。
  • 第二，《易经》是汉语成为单音语言的原因之一。
  • 第三，《易经》影响了中华文化的审美观念。

Well, without ABC and 12345, there is no way the Chinese could ever develope the all important equations. Same as the Newton's law, and the E=MC(square) Arilang talk 20:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Hi, it's been a long time since we've met at the debate over the Ming and Qing dynasties last year. I see that you're the creator of Qin's wars of unification and I've expanded the article over the past few days by adding translated information from Chinese sources. Please take a look and see if you've any ideas on how to promote it to A-Class or GA status. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks. _LDS (talk) 08:08, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. _LDS (talk) 13:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

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Coordinator elections have opened!

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Hi again

Please have a look Chinese Characters and the Greek Alphabet Eric A. Havelock Vassar College may be this really is the reason why Chinese is so backward on science? Arilang talk 08:04, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

How about this

http://literaturesotherlanguages.blogspot.com/2010/01/prejudice-against-pidgin.html

"Going even further with respect to the situation in northern China, Hashimoto Mantaro theorized that during the Qing (Manchu) dynasty (1644-1911), the language of the capital was not Chinese but rather a pidgin made up of Manchu and Chinese elements, as well as a few elements from Mongolian and other minor languages. Furthermore, he suggested that modern Beijing dialect was a descendant of that pidgin. Though this theory is impressionistically persuasive, the major obstacle in accepting it is the lack of solid empirical evidence.

Teen, if the above theory holds, that mean the nowadays Mandarin is in fact part Manchu part Chinese, that could only means, culturally speaking, as long as we are speaking Mandarin, we are part of Manchu! Isn't it a bit frightening? Arilang talk 22:08, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The sound of ancient Chinese

李白 月下獨酌 中古漢語朗讀 Arilang talk 22:19, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi

Please have a look and give some comments:User:Arilang1234/Comparison between written English and written Chinese Draft Arilang talk 06:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

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The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : XLIX (March 2010)

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WikiProject Economics census

Hello there. Sorry to bother you, but you are (titularly at least) a member of WP:WikiProject Economics, as defined by this category. If you don't know me, I'm a Wikipedia administrator, but an unqualified economist. I enjoy writing about economics, but I'm not very good at it, which is why I would like to support in any way I can the strong body of economists here on Wikipedia. I'm only bothering you because you are probably one of them. Together, I'd like us to establish the future direction of WikiProject Economics, but first, we need to know who we've got to help.

Whatever your area of expertise or level of qualification, if you're interested in helping with the WikiProject (even if only as part of a larger commitment to this wonderful online encyclopedia of ours), would you mind adding your signature to this page? It only takes a second. Thank you.

Message delivered on behalf of User:Jarry1250 by LivingBot.

Firstly, thank you for signing the census, and an apology if you are one of those editors who dislike posts such as this one for messaging you again in this way. I've now got myself organised and you can opt-out of any future communication at WP:WikiProject Economics/Newsletter. Just remove your name and you won't be bothered again.
Secondly, and most importantly, I would like to invite your comments on the census talk page about the project as a whole. I've given my own personal opinion on a range of topics, but my babbling is essentially worthless without your thoughts - I can't believe for one moment that everyone agrees with me in the slightest! :)
All your comments are welcomed. Thanks, - Jarry1250 [Humorous? Discuss.] 18:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

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Request of reply
Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Talk:Johnson South Reef Skirmish.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Grenouille vert (talk) 15:43, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Talk:Johnson South Reef Skirmish.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Grenouille vert (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Comparative studies of the Roman and Han empires

Please stop trying to include the external link to your own pamphlet and try to respect the ongoing discussion/vote. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Please tell us if you have an understanding disability with regards to the proper demeanour while a discussion/vote is still underway. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 21:24, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Before anyone responds to the above, Gun Powder Ma has been warned not to make personal attacks or he will be reported to ANI. Nev1 (talk) 22:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
GPM, that external link was valid, as it showed your lack of understanding on what Wikiversity stands for; it was conducive to the discussion and not completely malicious. The only other link added to the Wikiversty page was added by DreamFocus, who initiated the discussion. [1] Anyways, I came to your talk page, Teeninvestor, to remind you to keep your talk page messages neutral, to avoid violations of WP:CANVASS. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 14:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

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Chinese armies, pre-1911

Hi Teen. Yeah, I've pretty much been active due to my latest project on Parthian Empire. You may want to check that out; there's some information on Chinese trade relations, and of course what the early Chinese histories have to say about Persian and Near Eastern civilization contemporaneous with the Han Dynasty. But of course, there's a lot more information on the Roman Empire and Kingdom of Armenia! I'm hoping it will become a featured article.

As for the article you are concerned about, I'll take a look. However, I actually don't own Temple (1986), which I borrowed from my university library ages ago for List of Chinese inventions. I have a few books in my personal library which might be useful. I'm at work right now, so I can't do anything at the moment. In fact, I should go, since I shouldn't even be at Wikipedia right now! Lol. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 20:41, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi Teen. Sorry I have not responded lately, but I don't think I can be of much help unless I take a trip to the library and confirm information using Temple (1986) and other sources. As for Jia Sidao, I mentioned him numerous times in the article History of the Song Dynasty, using a source that I actually do own and is part of my personal library (i.e. Rossabi (1988), Khubilai Khan: His Life and Times). However, Rossabi does not go into biographical detail about Jia's life; he is only mentioned here and there in passing due to the main focus on Kublai Khan. As for the Song Dynasty article, yes it does mention that Wang Anshi established a salt monopoly, but I do not claim it was the first such monopoly in China! Obviously I am aware of the much earlier Han-dynasty salt monopoly (I did write Economy of the Han Dynasty after all), which I didn't feel was incredibly relevant in the Song article, but perhaps it could be mentioned. What I think you're getting at is a permanent government monopoly on salt since Han times, which is incorrect. The government monopoly over the salt industry was interrupted many times with interregnums of private control; Wang Anshi was merely reviving a traditional monopoly which had been established and revoked many times. I do not believe I have a decent source on Song hyperinflation. Unfortunately most sources I read about Song economics are small journal articles, which have a rather narrow focus and only mention hyperinflation in passing or as a means to clarify other points about Song economics. If I find something with an incredible amount of detail, I'll let you know. One source I would immediately look for, however, would be the Cambridge History of China (1986) volume which covers the Song period; that should certainly contain a rich amount of economic information. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Hi Teen. I can't respond to everything at the moment, but when I return to my computer I will address everything that you've mentioned over at my talk page. Cheers and good luck with the SAT!.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:05, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

Tags

Remove the tags for the third time without prior discussion, and I am going to toy with the idea of reporting you to Wikipedia:ANI. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 23:13, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

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Economic history pre ..... Debate!

April 2010

Why are you deleting sourced material? It is just a few quotes. Unless you come up with something to replace it that isn't full of grammar errors, I will keep the article as it is. Discuss your changes on talk page.Teeninvestor (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

It´s the word of the World bank!! Not some bad facts from som magazines! My changes is sourced! Look at the source and read it, you´ll se!

Economic history of China (pre-1911)

Both you and Tosses have breached WP:3RR, meaning you have undone each other on the same article more than 3 times in a 24 hour period. If you continue to do so you risk being blocked. Tosses is also being warned. Please take content dispute to the article's talk page rather than edit war. Nev1 (talk) 22:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Economics Newsletter (Issue I)

Positively Economics

The Economics WikiProject Newsletter Issue I (May 2010)

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Must see video

Hi, I think this video is very good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDCbLPmEufc&feature=related Arilang talk 05:00, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Another must see video

http://v.ifeng.com/his/200903/e924cdee-18aa-4ede-9493-f6e012d15ddc.shtml#f55799f6-3ded-49bc-981d-794e682a16ff

Arilang talk 02:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

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Economy of the Han Dynasty

Thanks! Parthian Empire certainly looks good, although you were right to point out the lack of economic information. However, for reasons beyond my control, there is a systemic lack of primary source materials for Parthian history which would allow me to describe Parthian economics in any sort of detail.

As for Economy of the Han Dynasty, could you point out the specific sentence which says this about Eastern Han? I can't seem to find it. You quote the words "heavily taxed" but this phrase does not appear anywhere in the article. Once you point out the relevant sentence, I can perhaps share a quote or two from the cited source and we can discuss it if you like. Sound fun? Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 05:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

You still around?--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:59, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject Economics Newsletter (Issue II)

Positively Economics

The Economics WikiProject Newsletter Issue II (June 2010)

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Regarding a redirect you made

I started a discussion here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

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WikiProject Economics Newsletter (Issue III)

Positively Economics

The Economics WikiProject Newsletter Issue III (July 2010)

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Qing Dynasty mining

Really? I was completely unaware of this. If correct, it would certainly help to explain more than just the lack of coal-powered machinery concurrent with Europe's industrial revolution. Timothy Brook, in his Confusions of Pleasure (1998), talks about sporadic Ming-era restrictions on silver mining (which never lasted very long). However, I am largely ignorant about Chinese government restrictions imposed on mining any type of resource during the Qing, let alone any other dynasty. Can you guide me to the source where you discovered this? I'd love to know more about this.

And about our earlier conversation where you asked about the Eastern Han imposing heavier taxes on merchants to make up for the loss of its salt and iron monopolies, look to page 609 in Patricia Ebrey's "The Economic and Social History of Later Han" Cambridge History of China (1986). Property taxes were also raised in Eastern Han to compensate government revenues after the reduction of the land tax for peasant farmers (Nishijima 1986: 596–598). It was a step in the right direction to remove the burdensome monopolies and restore private control. However, as with all governments which seek to maintain their own self-sustaining power, the Eastern Han administration found raising certain taxes to be sufficient (until the obvious occurred during Huan and Ling's reign periods).--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:45, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Teen, this statement "even going as far as to prohibit mining ", looks like it is a wrong statement, I am afraid. In all the past dynasty, "mining" was never ever being "prohibited", and that include the Qing dynasty, because without mining, there shall be no copper for the coins, no iron for the swords and ploughs, no salt for cooking. "Restriction" on private sector's involvement of mining, yes, to prevent private merchants from getting rich, and hence out of control. Arilang talk 12:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, only out of control from the imperial government's point of view; since the scholarly class viewed the merchant class as almost parasitic to society, the fact that some merchants were more powerful than government officials was detested. However, you are right that this attitude and approach to certain areas of the private sector was nothing new to the Qing Dynasty; nationalization of salt and iron during Emperor Wu of Han's reign is an early example.--Pericles of AthensTalk 21:21, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

PoA, before 1911, 仕農工商, 仕= Bureaucrats, 農=farmers, 工= craft-men, 商=merchants, Merchants were always at the bottom of any imperial dynasty, because the emperor would not like to see a rich and powerful merchant class to challenge the Imperial Court. This is the main reason why Capitalism had never been able to form in ancient China. Arilang talk 07:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

Great Divergence

Reference 41 isn't working. And please be careful when editing articles. References should go after punctuation, and in this edit you removed sourced information without providing an explanation, presumably by mistake. Nev1 (talk) 22:31, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I've just noticed that in the bibliography section you've given the publication date of The Cambridge History of China: Volume 9 as both 2002 and 2003. Which is correct? Nev1 (talk) 15:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

As well as changing the date, you also changed the volume number from 9 to 8. Now the bibliography says that The Cambridge History of China: The Ch'ing Empire to 1800 is both volume 8 and 9. Nev1 (talk) 16:35, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for sorting that out. Nev1 (talk) 16:38, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

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The Military history WikiProject Newsletter : LII (June 2010)



The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue LII (June 2010) 		Front page
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Catch up with our project's activities over the last month, including the new Recruitment working group and Strategy think tank

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Milhist's newest featured and A-Class content

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Literary Inquisition

Could you please explain the basis of this edit? I reverted it as it seems a bit POV. Nev1 (talk) 01:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the problem isn't so much with what it was, but when, ie: the assertion that it was restricted to the Qing dynasty. Did the source mention that? Nev1 (talk) 16:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Ok, which source is this? Nev1 (talk) 16:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
I see. In light of this edit, I'm going to say Xu is incorrect and perhaps biased. Further details of exactly what he says may be required to assess whether his point of view is valid, although in the meantime I'd recommend removing him as a source. Nev1 (talk) 16:22, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Still though, inquisitions were not exclusive to the Qing. Nev1 (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely, the sources are clear that the Qing are most notorious for inquisitions (rightly or wrongly), but that's not the same as an assertion that only the Qing committed them. Nev1 (talk) 16:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
You implied it by unbalancing the article on literary inquisitions [2]. Nev1 (talk) 16:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

July 2010

Please do not remove dispute tags before the dispute is resolved. Kanguole 20:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

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ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 17:33, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

RFC/USER discussion concerning you (Teeninvestor)

Hello, Teeninvestor. Please be aware that a request for comments has been filed concerning your conduct on Wikipedia. The RFC entry can be found by your name in this list, and the actual discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Teeninvestor, where you may want to participate. Nev1 (talk) 00:38, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

We can talk later

I am literally walking out my door right now to meet a friend. I can talk about these articles later, as well as Qing mining. Arilang does bring up a good point though about the prohibitions on new private mining projects as opposed to government-run mining operations to extract metal ores.--Pericles of AthensTalk 23:36, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

About Chinese armies (pre-1911): I don't know exactly how much help I could offer here. I do own Needham's SSC Volume 5.7: the Gunpowder Epic, but I do not have Volume 5.6: Missiles and Sieges. Is there something specific you would like from the volume focusing on gunpowder weaponry and development? I'd have to borrow the other from the library, but I don't have the time or patience this week (and perhaps even the next) for doing that. To be honest, I consider Parthian Empire to be one of my last great endeavors here at (English) Wikipedia, as I find that I have less and less time these days to even visit, let alone pursue a project. I honestly don't remember Needham ever outright making the claim that, compared to every other world power, China had an unmatched military for a solid two millennia, at least not in the volume dedicated to gunpowder warfare. I would imagine such a statement could be hard to find; the index certainly won't help! I can see how Temple would be able to reach this conclusion for specific weapons used at different times, but the claim seems to raise more questions than it answers. Let me know if there's something else you need to know about a particular weapon/war engine/army unit/time period/defensive armor etc.; that is something which I can readily help you with. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
You still want my opinion about the Qing prohibition on private mining projects? I don't have much to say other than I think it's a self-defeating economic policy to stifle private entrepreneurship simply out of fear that some merchants will become very successful and wealthier than most scholar-officials. As you are well aware, this paranoia about private parties becoming powerful enough to challenge government authority was old by the time the Manchus conquered China. When it comes to mining metal ores, I could imagine this paranoia being heightened by the fact that copper and iron mining are closely associated with the production of currency and weapons. The Manchu rulers perhaps figured this would discourage counterfeiters as well as powerful merchants still harboring pro-Ming sentiments (who could utilize iron mining as a means to challenge the state with their own well-supplied rebel armies). One of the arguments put forth against private iron manufacture during Emperor Wu of Han's reign was that some wealthy iron manufacturers were amassing work forces of up to a thousand men, who were working for dangerously powerful private interests instead of working in traditional farms (and being properly assessed on the tax rolls). Perhaps there were similar arguments put forth by officials at the Qing court, but I do not have sources to confirm this. If you could find some of the Qing-era edicts or even documented scholarly debates on this issue, it would be helpful for both of us in reaching a greater understanding of what was really going on. Thanks.--Pericles of AthensTalk 00:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Well, that depends on which portion of the Ming Dynasty we are talking about; certainly not the Hongwu Emperor's reign period! The rights and freedoms of merchants (let alone scholar-officials) were simply disregarded. I think that if he lived at the same time as Draco (lawgiver), the two would get along very well (lol). Of course, by the latter half of the Ming period there was an enormous sea change in attitudes at court and in the realm of scholar-officialdom about how the merchants and entrepreneurial class should be viewed and treated. Instead of being viewed merely as morally bankrupt and a necessary evil in the system of Four Occupations, some merchants were eventually commemorated by scholar-officials as positive contributors to society, such as in public works projects, artwork, literature, etc. The blending of the merchant class with the scholarly gentry in the late Ming is a rather remarkable social revolution considering how segregated these social groups were in previous times (with some obvious exceptions). Thank you for confirming my thoughts about the Qing-era scholarly debate on mining; unfortunately the courses I took at George Mason did not focus on this issue whatsoever (I'm fairly certain the texts we studied didn't even mention this subject). Although we did read a great deal of excerpts from the Han Dynasty Discourses on salt and iron.--Pericles of AthensTalk 01:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Lol! I concur; those are some great occidental examples of state interventionism in private economies. As for the gunpowder section of your article, I'll see what I can do. As for now I am retiring from Wikipedia for the night (I've got a mountain of emails to reply to). Take care and good luck.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
That's an excellent find! A treasure trove, really. It's a shame I've already read most of them in English already! Lol. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 02:26, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
Hush now! You mustn't let the copyright vigilantes know your dark secret that *gasp* is too abominable to repeat here! Lol. All the links to my various sandbox pages can be found at User:PericlesofAthens/Sandbox. Although some are labeled "Ancient Egyptian literature," "Parthian Empire," "Marian reforms", etc. the ones with my notes for the major Han Dynasty project are labeled #s 2 to 6. There's a mountain of information both paraphrased and quoted verbatim by yours truly. Enjoy! And consider yourself one of the lucky few who know that my private sandbox exists! Please, though, be slightly discreet about it. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, where exactly did GunPowderMa say this about the cannon? Certainly not in the article for cannon. And yes, it's about time that someone made Discourses on salt and iron! I'll have to contribute to that, but excuse my slowness to do so, since I have chosen another project to research at the moment.--Pericles of AthensTalk 15:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

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China railway articles

Would you like to help me wth China railway articles? Reply on my talk page. Thanks! TEK (talk • e-mail) 03:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese Economic Reform

It would be a pleasure to copyedit the article for you and convert the references to Harvard format. As to the pictures, I make no promises there about my ability to find freely licensed and appropriate ones, but I will try after copyediting it. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 18:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I sincerely apologize for the delay; some things have come up, and I have been very busy this last week or so. I will, however, begin what you requested tonight. I am sorry if this has caused any trouble. かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 22:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
So Bafflegab already did the hard work, huh? Just an aside, why is it that you want all the references converted anyway? かんぱい！ Scapler (talk) 21:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

re:Tenmei's violation of ArbCom conditions

Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Roger Davies's talk page.
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July 2010

Please stop the incessant revert warring at Chinese armies (pre-1911). You reverted yourself initially, only to resume edit-warring. There is a clear consensus in the talkpage against your position, and this is starting to become very disruptive. Please stop. Athenean (talk) 17:51, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

New article

Please add content:

Protests against suppression of Cantonese speaking tradition Arilang talk 12:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Teen, would you please go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Protests_against_suppression_of_Cantonese_speaking_tradition#Protests_against_suppression_of_Cantonese_speaking_tradition

to put in some supportive comments, please. Arilang talk 12:27, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Chinese armies (Pre-1911)

A tag has been placed on Chinese armies (Pre-1911), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a redirect to an article talk page, file description page, file talk page, MediaWiki page, MediaWiki talk page, category talk page, portal talk page, template talk page, help talk, user page, user talk or special page from the main/article space.

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Tag on Military history of China (pre-1911)

Please see Moving the tag out of sight. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 09:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

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ANI

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 00:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

ANI II

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Talkback

Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Toddst1's talk page.
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Re: Great Divergence

A good ref work is Janet Abu-Lughod's BEH book (which I need to stub...). It is a major argument in the world-system theory. While it argues for the existence of the world-systems before the "long 16th century", it also nicely describes how the shift in world-systems (putting Europe ahead of the other regions) occurred around that time. I agree with what you write about Middle East and Japan, but I would like to see the ME section created and stating that (JAL supports it); as for Japan, I would like it expanded more (in fact, if you could recommend a source on Japanese trade and cultural contacts with other lands in that era, I'd love to read it - apparently my knowledge of that subject is lacking). Btw, I feel that such discussion should in its entirety take part on the article's discussion page. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:24, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The WP:FEED backlog

Hello, I see you made a request at WP:FEED a long time ago, but have continued to be active on Wikipedia and made good edits to the encyclopedia. Since you have posted on WP:FEED in the past, I would like to suggest that if you want please try and help out at the page, as we have a massive backlog. It'd be really great if you provided some advice to other, new users on their articles.

To do this, you'll just need to take a look at their article, which they'll post the link to, and maybe see what perhaps can be improved, like adding sections, references or links, much like you would do with any other article, except you are giving feedback rather than making actual edits. After getting some idea of what needs to be improved, you just need to tell them briefly underneath. It's really simple but incredibly useful to new users and their articles, and helps to overall increase the quality of these new articles.

I hope you will at least consider. Please send me a message if you have any further questions, or if you would like further information. Thanks a lot! Chevymontecarlo 14:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

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Taxation in premodern China

I can already tell that this will become very useful. I am busy and can't add any content to it at the moment, but I will review my notes and see if I can make some small contributions. Cheers.--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:03, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

In Economy of the Han Dynasty, you cite Maddison for your claim that Needham refutes Maddison. Does Maddison really provide some sort of summary of Needham's argument against him? If so, does Needham directly refute the per capita figure of $ 450 (in 1990 US dollars) and provide some other estimate? Needham's exact words are critical here; does Maddison cite the Needham work he is referring to?--Pericles of AthensTalk 03:08, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts.
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Reliable or not: Robert K. G. Temple on Chinese and world history

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion on Temple's reliability here. Regards Gun Powder Ma (talk) 08:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

August 2010

You have been blocked from editing, for a period of 48 hours, for continued hounding of Gun Powder Ma (talk · contribs) per discussion on ANI. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you would like to be unblocked, you may appeal the block by adding below this notice the text {{unblock|Your reason here}}, but you should read our guide to appealing blocks first. Toddst1 (talk) 14:18, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

{{unblock|This block is unjustified. I have not violated 3RR, edit warring, misrepresentation of sources, or any other policy. I was reporting another editor's bad behaviour and I got blocked for "hounding" him? He reported me several times yet I don't see him getting blocked. Not to mention that I contacted said Admin to help stop a vandal, and he ended up blocking me instead of the vandal. Anyways, if unblocked I promise to make no further reports (though I wasn't going to anyways after ANI).}}

Your request to be unblocked has been granted for the following reason(s):

per agreement to voluntary sanction agreed to below. Toddst1 (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Request handled by: Toddst1 (talk)

Unblocking administrator: Please check for active autoblocks on this user after accepting the unblock request.

Offer of conditional unblock

I'll be willing to unblock you on one condition: you agree to a voluntary sanction to avoid Gun Powder Ma. That means not talking to him, not talking about him and not editing the same articles and talkpages as him (within a month). Are you willing to make such a deal? Toddst1 (talk) 14:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes. However, I have a question. What if he suddenly comes to an article I am editing (I would accept the condition regardless, but I want to know what to do).Teeninvestor (talk) 14:59, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
You stop. I'll talk to GPM and ask him not to do that. Deal? Toddst1 (talk) 15:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

K.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Your editing restriction has been recorded in User:Teeninvestor/Restriction. If you feel GPM begins following you or is otherwise interacting with you in a way to trip you up with respect to this restriction, please let me know (but don't abuse it). Toddst1 (talk) 15:39, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
This could hit the rocks early on. Teeninvestor has heavily edited Economic history of China (pre-1911), which this morning was placed under a GA review initiated by Gun Powder Ma before editing restrictions were proposed. Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
That means Teeninvestor will not be editing that article for a while. Toddst1 (talk) 16:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
This should be interesting - Teeninvestor is by far the most active editor there, with GPM last editing the article on July 25th, and anyone else last editing on the 23rd. The GAR by GPM has a fairly long list of issues. Maybe allow TI to send you his responses to each issue, but only one response to each, which you then post there? Give him a chance to respond to an action that at least appears to be provocative, but in a limited, controlled way. Ravensfire (talk) 17:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I believe that would be in violation of the interaction ban. Toddst1 (talk) 17:56, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
I've notified PericlesofAthens (talk · contribs) of the GAR; hopefully he can deal with the issues as he's been involved with the article, although not as much as Teeninvestor. I think Toddst1 is right and that further interaction should be avoided. There is the option of opening the GAR to the community I think. Nev1 (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Note that there is currently an RFC open about Teeninvestor. That RFC should be considered outside of this restriction so that Teeninvestor may defend him/herself. However, any misconduct or disruptive behavior by Teeninvestor or Gun Powder Ma on that RFC should be dealt with swiftly and strongly. Toddst1 (talk)

I intend to only edit Chinese economic reform to GA status and then I'm frankly probably done here. Frankly this block is a slap in the face; it's a reminder to me that here your contributions and all the sources you ever provide count for nothing as long as an editor can go around canvassing someone to get rid of you. The issues "raised" at the GAR are like a 5 year old trying to question relativity and how it's completely exaggerated; if this article is delisted then frankly all mentions of sinology are now "unreliable"; we might as well drop all our articles on China and redirect them to barbarism. As I'm now officially now a "problem editor" who needs to be sanctioned and whose edits are all supposedly harmful to the wikipedia, I'm going to stay on the topic of Chinese economic reform and leave the dozen-odd articles I created to be "purified" with statements such as the Europeans invented gunpowder, movable type, paper, the crossbow, that medieval Europe was the richest place ever, that Marco Polo's account is misunderstood and that he was actually writing about how poor China was, and that China was a primitivist commune for 4000 years compared with the wonderful free market Roman economy which just happened to have slaves, the world's first welfare state, systematic price controls and 30% taxation. In other words, the articles economic history of China (pre-1911) and Military history of China (pre-1911) will be back to the state which I found them.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Hi Teen. I have emailed you via Wikipedia; check your mailbox.--Pericles of AthensTalk 04:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Teeninvestor. You have new messages at 81.226.72.209's talk page.
Message added 14:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Austrian

Please do not engage in revert wars. You have yet to discuss your edit, when 3 editors have indicated disagreement with you. BigK HeX (talk) 17:17, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Chinese economic reform

Hi Teeninvestor, you requested me to convert the references in above article to 'harvnb' format. Unfortunately, I'm unfamiliar with this format (I normally use 'cite' format), and I don't really have the time to convert it properly. I'd prefer working on a stored copy, but there are ongoing issues with the article that would make this impractical. So I'll have to leave it alone, but I'd be happy to return when these issues are settled and the article is stable. Thanks and happy editing, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

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