User:Miss Mondegreen/Issue Archives/University High School

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GFDL violation on article I am a major contributor of

I am a major contributor to the article University High School (Los Angeles), and when I went to University High's new website, I found that they had added a history page, and that large portions of the text there were identical to the Uni High article on Wikipedia.

Uni High's old website is still up and running. Uni has done this before--create an entirely new website but leave their old one online for forever. The old website stopped being updated in February of this year, and looking at the Uni High article history on Wikipedia, it's easy to see the article develop. Parts of the language that were copied was around in 2005, and I'm the author of parts of the copied text, but before I go ahead and send a GFDL violation letter, I'd like someone else to look at the page and give me advice. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 06:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, since WP:OWN comes to play. However, my suggestion would be to go ahead and send the article. Cheers! Real96 06:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The fact the your a major contributor isn't an issue. The fact that they are claiming copyright on it is. I'm tempted to send an e-mail to the webstaff, but I don't see a link or any indication of who that is. John Reaves (talk) 06:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Why would WP:OWN come into play? And the GFDL page says that I have to be a major contributer in terms of copyright or I don't hold certain legal standing--that's why I asked the question. And yes, but wouldn't any website that ignored GFDL be claiming copyright? Or no? Is it not just GFDL violation but a step further in that they are claiming their own copyright? Can I proceed, how would I, should I, is there anything I should be aware of? Would their claiming copyright mean that I'd have to modify one of the letters on the GFDL page?

Also, I'm guessing that the webmaster is one who's contact info is on the old website. Unless they had someone different updating that site through to Febraury from the person doing this site. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 06:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that, you're right about the major contributor issue. The bottom of the page indicates that they are claiming copyright, so this needs to be addressed. I found that e-mail at the old site too. Do you know the e-mails of any principal or other staff? I'm looking for contacts at the Los Angeles Unified School District too. I'm going to send a letter too just so they get the point (I'll cc you too if you'd like when we get addresses together). John Reaves (talk) 07:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do, have the e-mails that is, but it might take me a day to find them. One of the things that does concern me is that this is handled properly. This school has a rich history, both good and sometimes controversial, but a lot of the information and media that I'm looking for I can't get online, and that includes my access to Lexus Nexis, JSTOR, etc. I need to be able to go to the school and go the library and take pictures and talk to people, and use not only first hand accounts, but use the first hand accounts to know where to look. If this is handled properly, people might look at the article and think it's good for the school. If it's not, my access, and others' access might be severely limited. Which is why I do think it would be good if the notice did not come from me (a BCC would be nice). The principal is going to be annoyed by this--and if students still design the uni website some student is getting suspended (this takes plagarism to new heights)--and since I know that I'm going to be going up to the school at least for this article, it would be great if it didn't spill onto me. I know that if the principal doesn't deal with this I'm one of a few people who actually can take further action and I'd be fine with that, but I think it would be best initially if I didn't get involved. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 07:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and sent the letter to an Asst. Principal, a tech guy, the webmaster, and a view District officials. E-mail me with any other addresses you have. Also, I'll go ahead forward it to you if you'll e-mail me. John Reaves (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have some edits that I want to make to the article--some of which are changes to the text that is taken. Should I wait until this is resolved? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Image Uploading

Moved from a sub-userpage of mine.

I've never been great with image uploading legaleeze and since I haven't been following the new "yes/no" fair use stuff I thought I'd ask before uploading a few things.

Photos from the Los Angeles Public Library's Online Database from 1925 are public domain by now right?
Images of a school logo are fair use.
A photo of the front of a school would be fair use, but if I put it up, it would be taken down in a flash as easily reproducible, right?

Thanks Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

See this website. Images of a school logo, which has been created by the school has the copyright of the school and is not fair use. If you are getting pictures from the LA Public library, the source must have fair use for republication. Real96 15:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's the case though--I'm talking about mascot images which I've never been able to find a copyright for. The school in question not only has had to mascots, but in the past had two "identities" per year, per class, and each class had a logo similar to a mascot logo that they used throughout their highschool careers. Out of all of these logos--the old class logos, the old mascot logo, only the current one is on their website now, which says all material is copyrighted to them, but I know that that copyright symbol has been tacked on improperly as one of their pages was taken from Wikipedia. I know most school article include the mascot symbol, how? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 21:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Gabrielino Tongva dancers at Kuruvunga Springs.jpg

I have contacted Ms. Berhns, and I hope for a reply soon. I'll notify you once I get one. :) Bl a st ^{[improve me]} 21.04.07 2356 (UTC)

Thanks. You'll notice however that the website hasn't been updated since before October 2006. You can see this, and another image I uploaded under similar circumstances (except that I'm already waiting for a reply in that instance) at the article University High School (Los Angeles). If you'd be willing, would you weigh in on the discussion above? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 00:03, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Nvm--I found Wikipedia:Logos Miss Mondegreen | Talk 00:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:University_High_(LA)_Warriors_Logo.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:University_High_(LA)_Warriors_Logo.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 08:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Note from Miss Mondegreen:

Taken care of. Forgot to {{Logo}}. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 09:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Reference

Thanks for all your work on the Uni article. :) If you'd like a ref for my own name, btw, this is probably the best: [1] --El on ka 00:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

*gasps in shock and horror* Oh no! A wikipedian with a wikipedia article! Is there no greater curse?

Anyway, you're now official WP:V--at least in terms of the Uni article and that is if someone doesn't come along and decide that your autobiography can't possibly know where you went to high school.

The problem with the Uni article is that there is so much to add. Since you went there in a period of time I don't know much about, do you mind if I ask you some questions? Via e-mail or something? Miss Mondegreen | Talk 00:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to help with general background, though of course nothing can go into the article unless we can also find a published source. But maybe I can point you in some useful directions, sure. I'm also still in contact with some teachers from that era, who might be able to help as well. Click on "Contact info" on my userpage, and choose whichever method works best for you. :) --El on ka 01:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Yah, I'm basically looking for starting off points. Almost everything notable that happened seems to be well-sourced in one form or another, though some of these sources require actually leaving the house and digging through books and old-fashioned archives. But it's hard looking when I don't know what to look for or only have a vague idea and especially with web research, looking has been complicated by the commonality of many of the search terms. I want to use general searches, but can't and the more specific I make the search, the more quotes I put in, the more things that do apply are excluded. I figure that by talking to various people from different periods of time I can get a good timeline idea and a good idea of missing topics and then just start to search and source.

Also, thanks for removing the cats from the archive page. They really aren't necessary and it totally didn't occur to me. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 07:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:University_High_(Los_Angeles)_1925.jpg

Thanks for uploading Image:University_High_(Los_Angeles)_1925.jpg. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Wikipedia's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. 08:08, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Note from Miss Mondegreen

Taken care of. At this time I've double checked and fixed the licensing on everything that need fixing. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 12:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Late thought

Re Alumni - you know that some schools create a category to hold alumni - see Derby School - for an example Victuallers 09:07, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I found out in a roundabout fashion when discussing what to do with the overly long alum list. The pages I was linked to created a seperate cat for alumni, something that I'd asked about earlier on the talk page but that no one replied to. I'm going to split the alumni off onto a separate page first, and then cat them but yes, considering that the notable alum list is already long and is likely to end up being simply massive, I think that both a seperate page and a cat are good ways to go. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 11:51, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Picture requests

If you are in the L.A. area, Miss Mondegreen, do you mind if you take new pictures of University HS and Palisades Charter HS so they can be displayed on Wikipedia? I think the pictures would be great for the articles :) WhisperToMe 01:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Anything in particular at Palisades Charter? I don't know if I will be able to take pictures, though I am often in Los Angeles, but if you have requests for images of particular places if I can't take a picture or find a picture I will forward the request on to someone who can. Miss Mondegreen | Talk 04:28, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

In particular, I would like the front of the school which bears the school name - something similar to this: Image:HoustonLamarHighSchool.JPG :) WhisperToMe 13:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I read your message at the Uni article and responded:

"I often post the same picture in various articles - E.G. I only need one shot of Uni, which will work on the school article itself, as well as LAUSD's list of schools, LAUSD, Brentwood, Bel-Air, etc." I am cool with whatever you do :) WhisperToMe 01:40, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Your signature

While archiving old assessments with {{hidden}} we have disciverred that templates do not take your signature correctly. The plain-text verticle bar makes the template think the entry is two sections. I just thought you should know so that you can correct this in the future. Adam McCormick 01:04, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Since I changed my signature recently anyway to italicize the talk, I've temporarily removed the vert bar. But can you show me exactly what you're talking about? Because the problem is that I'm fairly sure I got that signature exactly from a Wiki page on changing preferences and sigs and if it's problematic, the example should really be changed. Miss Mondegreen talk 04:58, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Just letting you know, but in your signature as it appears here, the timestamp is not fixed. When someone reads that later, the timestamp will be the time it is read. Gimmetrow 00:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh shoot. I was sure that I'd substed everything, but it appears that that somehow got undone. I'll fix that and then go fix those comments. Thanks for letting me know. Miss Mondegreen talk 02:15, May 6 2007

Barnstar

I just wanted to recognise the big effort youve put into the Uvi High page - it is much appreciated. Keep it up. Twenty Years 01:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

		The Original Barnstar
		I hereby awards this to Miss Mondegreen for her excellent work on University High School Twenty Years 01:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I like barns and stars, and barnstars--well, they're the best of both, they're closer and they smell better. Miss Mondegreen talk 04:24, May 12 2007

Your tea

☻ Someone has poured you tea ☺

Camaron1 | Chris 18:53, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

List

ref: Miss Mondegreen's comment on Victuallers talk page

Hi, if you look on the assessment project page there is a chart that shows the unasseeed etc. To target this we work off the list of unassessed schools. On that list are all schools (actually any page) that has an edditted schools template on it. To clean this up I have set every page that is a school list to be labelled a school list. Its not of great value so we have no attacked pages that are list but don't have a schools assessment template, Hope this makes some sense Victuallers 07:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Erm, I think so. I got what your edit was attempting to do, and I copied that form when I added the other wikiproject templates to the talk page. I was more confused and amused by the wp:alabama banner that you added--I thought it was just a little ironic that the wrong wikiproject state got added right after I'd moved the page to reflect what state it was in. The whole point of exact location names is less confusion and not more and.... My already addled brain found it funny I guess... Miss Mondegreen talk 08:37, May 15 2007

The University HS redirect

If you wish to contest the University HS redirect, please see Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion - The redirect does not meet Speedy criteria, which you can read here: Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Redirects WhisperToMe 21:44, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

My point with the redirects is that people tend to be shortsighted - they may believe that the article ought to be at X location, and if it is not at X location, then they will assume the article does not exist and will begin typing. I have seen new users start school articles with no caps or all caps. I have seen school articles deleted due to lack of meaningful content. In short, anons and new users may lack brains and common sense. I honestly did not, though, consider the argument brought by the closing admin: people may bookmark the old location and become flabbergasted to see the article gone... poof! WhisperToMe 03:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, not so much the latter as they can check the deletion record and see that the page exists at a new location, but that this article, unlike a lot of school articles has not only been around a long time, but during that time had a lot of pages link to it. Deleting the redirect breaks the old versions of those pages, which isn't of much consequence if it's a fairly recent article or little links to it, but that's not the case here.

I understand what you're saying about where articles get created and various types of wiki behavoir, but are you arguing that all of these people are typing into their browser the exact location of where they assume the article is or should be and not using either google, or google wikipedia, or most obviously the search function within wikipedia? And that when the "this page does not exist" message appears, they ignore the instructions that that message provides and they don't use the search function?

If you're arguing that, then, I'm sorry, I just disagree. I've seen no evidence of this behavoir--I've seen evidence of wiki-laziness. Wiki-laziness, not bothering to check if an article exists is generally easily dealt with, hopefully it's quickly dealt with and it shouldn't be catered to. In any case, it can't be catered to in this scenario as this redirect is only one half a dozen common and proper (pre-guideline) ways to name this page.

If you're not arguing that--if you think this happens with searching--then I just don't get it as this would be either the first or second search result (with the disambig page).

Obviously, this isn't really about this article anymore as there's another issue at play for this article (and I added something into the guideline to address that), but you're making an argument about redirects that would apply to a lot of stuff. Miss Mondegreen talk 07:10, May 20 2007

University HS article

Regarding the sentences, it may not seem that way to you, but it may be construed as a POV manner. NPOV is non-negotiable. Anyway, as for "I think that attempting to shy away from what's represented in the sources we have is a bad idea, and isn't neutral." - If there is a controversy, use X states Y. E.G. Billy Joe states that University High School's funds are not sufficient for X, etc. WhisperToMe 19:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Replied at article's talk page where the discussion is in full. Miss Mondegreen talk 20:22, May 21 2007 (UTC)

<removed comment by WhisperToMe>
Please keep article discussion on the article talk page. I watch the article and do not need to know when you have made changes or commented. If I am not participating in an ongoing discussion, etc, and have been active onwiki, feel free to ask me to look at something, but do not use my talk page as a substitute for an article talk page. Thank you. Miss Mondegreen talk 23:21, May 21 2007 (UTC)

uni high school

Find another source other than the student newspaper, and I have no problem with the material being included. As it stands, it's negative and critical, and that needs to be carefully sourced. A student newspaper does NOT cut it for that. ⇒ SWATJester ^{Denny Crane.} 20:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing

I appreciate that you want the widest possible input on the Uni High dispute, but we discourage editors from engaging in internal spam. See WP:SPAM. It isn't good form to post a request in every possible place. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 02:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I posted at the relevant wikiprojects and at the policies. I included both ATT and V, because I've noticed that a lot of people seem to have no idea which one is policy and I'm assuming that the majority of users do not watch both talk pages.

I also personally asked the four people who have assessed or commented on a peer review lately as generally, leaving a comment at the wikiprojects yeilds little. All of these users have spent time recently reading the article, the sources and offering opinions about how to change it. The article in question has almost no contributers, few active watchers, and these four people are more familiar with the article than practically anyone else on wikipedia. They don't watch the article. If you look at the article, you'll notice that I've written almost everything that's there, and that the article recieves more vandalism than it does other writing. This was a serious attempt to get other people who are familiar with the article involved in the discussion, because I am constantly being put in an OWN position. Miss Mondegreen talk 02:32, May 24 2007 (UTC)

Everybody who canvasses has a good reason for it, but if everyone canvassed we'd be overrun with people posting requests for comments. It's been posted at AN/I, which has a wider readsership than any project. As for vandalism, that's a part of this project and particularly afflicts school articles. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 05:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

*nods* I appreciate the warning, and I am well aware of AN/I's readership, but I am also hoping that people who are familiar with the article will provide their opinions. Which is immensely difficult when I have done almost all of the writing etc, and there are very few editors who (to my knowledge) watch the article. Miss Mondegreen talk 06:03, May 24 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget to "Clean up your mess" after this is over. Wikipedia:Canvassing#If you have canvassed. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the page protection, I'll remove it if you commit to not reverting the contributions by others. I know you're just one of many, but you're the one making the request. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks--I hadn't seen those before. I'll leave personal talk page ones, and wiki project ones in the desperate hope that someone from socal will wander down and at least assess the thing (it's been months!), but there are definitely ones I need to remove. I'll do that now.

"commit to not reverting the contributions by others"? With the protection removed I'd like to change the current version to the one here. I'd been writing the section when the edit war broke out--this is the more finished version that I've been working on ever since. The current version not only removed most of the references to the high school newspaper, but also removed other references with no explanation and added fact tags for things which were sourced by definitely reliable sources (like the latimes). Would that be alright? I really hate to be waiting on people that I don't know whether or not (or when) they'll be coming back to explain, discuss, etc.

But yes, in general, I have no issue with commiting to that. My main reverts were in my debate/discussion with whisper and they weren't because of the dispute, they were because something was factually inaccurate. Miss Mondegreen talk 23:23, May 25 2007 (UTC)

A good practice to follow is "be bold, revert once, then discuss". But until things settle down it'd be better to avoid reverting. That filming article is awesome, though I'd worry that it would affect the balance of the Uni article if included in that form. Anyway, I'll let you work that out with the other editors. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 23:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:BOLD was working really well until the edit war. Irnoically, because I was writing and no one was commenting on the talk page I didn't even notice the war until someone left me a comment on my talk page. I kept getting to the page when it was on the verison I'd been using, so I didn't even realize anyone else had touched it until the second or third round of reverts.

And thanks. Worried it will affect the balance how? Eventually filming will be a subpage, because filming at Uni has gone on for decades and even only including notable projects, the list will look like the alumni list easy. And I'll try and write a start article for FilmL.A., Inc sometime in the future, but for now, this is what I have. Miss Mondegreen talk 23:54, May 25 2007 (UTC)

School categories

Many thanks for commenting on the school categories. I'm replying here rather than on the categories page as it would appear that there is already a consensus for a merge and the battle has been lost. To me it makes much more sense to have a category entitled secondary schools. However, it would appear that the majority of American editors prefer the term high school and this is perhaps the reason why so many school categories have been mistakenly categorised as high schools rather than secondary schools. I suspect it's probably easier to compromise so that the categories can be understood by editors worldwide and we don't end up with separate categories developing for high schools and secondary schools as at present which depend on the preferred terminology used by the editor at that time. I understand too that in Israel secondary school is an archaic term and that high school would be the normal term used. In the UK we would use the term secondary school, and it would be quite inappropriate to classify such schools as high schools. I associate high school (perhaps mistakenly) purely with American schools. I think it would be very difficult to categorise schools by type internationally simply because there are so many different types of secondary school, many of which are exclusive to one specific country. UK schools are already categorised into grammar schools, comprehensive schools, specialist schools, city academies, private schools, etc (but note no high schools, though we do have a few middle schools and we have primary schools whereas the US has elementary schools). However, I don't think that any of the UK school types are used elsewhere in the world. Our grammar schools are roughly equivalent to the gymnasiums in many European countries (ie, schools catering for the academic high-flyers). I believe our comprehensive schools are roughly equivalent to US high schools (ie schools catering for the full ability range) but none of the schools are exactly equivalent. It's probably best to stick with the existing categorisation by country. The secondary school/high school categories seem to be the only ones which have been adopted on an international level as far as I can establish. Dahliarose 23:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)