User:Dorje108/Buddhism and religion sources

Previous discussions from the Buddhism talk page archives

This archive of the Buddhism talk page contains a lengthy discussion on this topic of Buddhism and religion:

• Talk:Buddhism/Archive 14#Is Buddism a Religion or a Philosophy

Definitions of religion

From dictionaries

Note: emphasis added by Dorje108

Google definition:[1]

• the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
• a particular system of faith and worship.
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

From dictionary.com dictonary.com

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

Fourth entry:Webster's dictionary

• the belief in a god or in a group of gods
• an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
• an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

Wikipedia article:

• Article link: Religion
• Section on definitions of religion: Religion#Definitions

Oxforddictionaries.com:

• the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods
• a particular system of faith and worship
• a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance

Freedictionary.com:

• 1.

  a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

  b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

• 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
• 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
• 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

From scholars

The Wikipedia article on religion gives definitions by various respected western scholars. From Clifford Geertz:

[A] system of symbols which acts to establish powerful, pervasive, and long-lasting moods and motivations in men by formulating conceptions of a general order of existence and clothing these conceptions with such an aura of factuality that the moods and motivations seem uniquely realistic. Geertz, 1993, "Religion as a cultural system".

Moojan Momen (not in the Wiki-article) gives an apparently dimilar, but slightly less neutral "definition":

Religion, as a human phenomenon, is founded on the basis of what is described as being the experience of the 'holy' or the 'sacred'. Momen, "Understanding religion", 2009, p. 21

Note that this reminds of Rudolf Otto's Das Heilig, who in turn was inspired by William James, who in his turn was inspired by Friedrich Schleiermacher (Sharf, Robert H. (1995-B), "Buddhist Modernism and the Rhetoric of Meditative Experience" (PDF), NUMEN, vol.42 (1995) {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help)CS1 maint: year (link)). So, I still think that "religion" is about more than gods and supernatural beings, but that the connection with "the sacred" is also a biased western understanding, saveguarding religion from western science.(Sharf 1995-B). Following Geertz, Buddhism could also be called a "religion". Which, by the way, does not preclude the possibility of defining Buddhism as a set of rules & insight, or another definition without connotations to gods and supernatural realities. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 05:54, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Quotes on this topic

Buddhism is best described as a system of practices

Paul Williams states:

This use of the English '-ism' termination in 'Buddhism' can be taken to refer to the system of practices, understandings ('beliefs'), experiences, visions, and so on undergone and expressed at any one time and down the ages which derive from, or claim to derive from, a Buddha. - Williams, Paul (2002-12-07). Buddhist Thought (p. 1). Taylor & Francis. Kindle Edition.

Surya Das states:

"For Buddhism is less a theology or religion than a promise that certain meditative practices and mind trainings can effectively show us how to awaken our Buddha-nature and liberate us from suffering and confusion."

Here is a quote from Thurman, Mark Epstein, and Sharon Salzburg:

"Buddhism is not meditation. Buddhism is not a theory. Buddhism is not a set of rules, actions or ethics. Buddhism is a process of education of the mind and heart through learning, study, meditation and loving, virtuous action."[2]

"Religion" is too limiting a term to describe Buddhism

• The Dalai Lama states: "Buddhism does not accept a theory of God, or a creator. According to Buddhism, one's own actions are the creator, ultimately. Some people say that, from a certain angle, Buddhism is not a religion but rather a science of mind. Religion has much involvement with faith. Sometimes it seems that there is quite a distance between a way of thinking based on faith and one entirely based on experiment, remaining skeptical. Unless you find something through investigation, you do not want to accept it as fact. From one viewpoint, Buddhism is a religion, from another viewpoint Buddhism is a science of mind and not a religion. Buddhism can be a bridge between these two sides. Therefore, with this conviction I try to have closer ties with scientists, mainly in the fields of cosmology, psychology, neurobiology and physics. In these fields there are insights to share, and to a certain extent we can work together." --- Dalai Lama: Policy of Kindness, p. 101

• Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse states: "Although essentially very simple, Buddhism cannot be easily explained. It is almost inconceivably complex, vast, and deep. Although it is nonreligious and nontheistic, it’s difficult to present Buddhism without sounding theoretical and religious."
• B. Allan Wallace states: "When we in the West first engage with Buddhism, it is almost inevitable that we bring out one of our familiar stereotypes and apply it to Buddhism, calling it simply a ‘religion.’... But Buddhism has never been simply a religion as we define it in the West. From the very beginning it has also had philosophical elements, as well as empirical and rational elements that may invite the term ‘science.’"
• Rupert Gethin states: "I am not concerned here to pronounce on a question that is sometimes asked of Buddhism: is it a religion? Obviously it depends on how one defines ‘a religion’. What is certain, however, is that Buddhism does not involve belief in a creator God who has control over human destiny, nor does it seek to define itself by reference to a creed; as Edward Conze has pointed out, it took over 2,000 years and a couple of Western converts to Buddhism to provide it with a creed.12 On the other hand, Buddhism views activities that would be generally understood as religious—such as devotional practices and rituals—as a legitimate, useful, and even essential part of the practice and training that leads to the cessation of suffering.
• Damien Keown states: "Problems [...] confront us as soon as we try to define what Buddhism is. Is it a religion? A philosophy? A way of life? A code of ethics? It is not easy to classify Buddhism as any of these things, and it challenges us to rethink some of these categories. What, for example, do we mean by ‘religion’? Most people would say that religion has something to do with belief in God. [...] If belief in God in this sense is the essence of religion, then Buddhism cannot be a religion. [...] Some have suggested that a new category – that of the ‘non-theistic’ religion – is needed to encompass Buddhism. Another possibility is that our original definition is simply too narrow.
• Walpola Rahula states: "The question has often been asked: Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy? It does not matter what you call it. Buddhism remains what it is whatever label you may put on it. The label is immaterial. Even the label ‘Buddhism’ which we give to the teaching of the Buddha is of little importance. The name one gives it is inessential.

  What’s in a name? That which we call a rose,
  

  By any other name would smell as sweet.

In the same way Truth needs no label: it is neither Buddhist, Christian, Hindu nor Moslem. It is not the monopoly of anybody. Sectarian labels are a hindrance to the independent understanding of Truth, and they produce harmful prejudices in men’s minds."

• Robert Thurman, Professor of Indo-Tibetan Studies and Chair of the Department of Religion at Columbia University, states: "Buddhism is thought of as a world religion. But Buddhism is only 1/3 religion."[3]

Dzogchen Ponlop states:[4]

If our goal is to turn Buddhism into a religion, that's fine -- in America we have freedom of speech and the Bill of Rights. We can make Buddhism into a religion, or a branch of psychology, or a self-help program, or whatever we want. But if we're looking for enlightenment, we won't find it through relating to the Buddha as a religious idol. Like Siddhartha, we'll find real spiritual awakening only when we begin to leave behind our fixed ideas about religious practice. Seeing the Buddha as an example and following his example -- recreating, in our own lives, his pursuit of truth, his courage and his open mind -- that's the real power of Buddhism beyond religion.

Buddhism is a non-theistic philosophy

Khandro Rinpoche states:

Buddhism is a nontheistic philosophy. We do not believe in a creator but in the causes and conditions that create certain circumstances that then come to fruition. This is called karma. It has nothing to do with judgement; there is no one keeping track of our karma and sending us up above or down below. Karma is simply the wholeness of a cause, or first action, and its effect, or fruition, which then becomes another cause. In fact, one karmic cause can have many fruitions, all of which can cause thousands more creations. Just as a handful of seed can ripen into a full field of grain, a small amount of karma can generate limitless effects. -- Khandro Rinpoche, page 95, This Precious Human Life

Psychologist Mark Epstein refers to Buddhism as a philosophy:

The late composer John Cage, heavily influenced as he was by Buddhist philosophy, illustrates just this openness in his discussions of sound and music... --- Epstein, Mark (2004-12-14). Thoughts Without A Thinker: Psychotherapy from a Buddhist Perspective (pp. 115-116). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

See also:

• See T. R. V. Murti, The Central Philosophy of Buddhism: A Study of the Madhyamika System (London: Unwin Hyman, 1955), p. 3.

Buddhism is an atheistic religion

Jay Garfield states:

Since Buddhism is an atheistic religion, it doesn’t raise questions about the existence of God that so dominate the philosophy of Abrahamic religions, let alone questions about the attributes of the deity. Buddhists do worry about awakening (Buddhahood). How hard is it to achieve? What is it like? Is a Buddha aware of her surroundings, or do they disappear as illusory?

Buddhists also worry about the relation between ordinary reality, or conventional truth, and ultimate reality. Are they the same or different? Is the world fundamentally illusory, or is it real? They worry about hermeneutical questions concerning the intent of apparently conflicting canonical scriptures, and how to resolve them. They ask about the nature of the person, and its relationship to more fundamental psychophysical processes. Stuff like that. - http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/27/what-does-buddhism-require/?_php=true&_type=blogs&hp&rref=opinion&_r=0

The separation between religion and philosophy is a recent Western phenomena

Barbara O'Brien states:[5]

In many ways, the "religion versus philosophy" argument is an artificial one. The neat separation between religion and philosophy we insist on today didn't exist in western civilization until the 18th century or so, and there never was such a separation in eastern civilization. To insist that Buddhism must be one thing and not the other amounts to forcing an ancient product into modern packaging.

In Buddhism, this sort of conceptual packaging is considered to be a barrier to enlightenment. Without realizing it we use prefabricated concepts about ourselves and the world around us to organize and interpret what we learn and experience. One of the functions of Buddhist practice is to sweep away all the artificial filing cabinets in our heads so that we see the world as-it-is.

Buddhism and other religions - key distinction

Paul Williams states:

I have referred to 'Buddhism' as what speakers of European languages (or 'the West') think of as the '-ism' that derives from the (or a) Buddha. While one could scarcely be both an orthodox Christian and, say, a Muslim or Hindu at the same time, it is perfectly possible to be a Buddhist and at the same time have recourse to and make offerings to Hindu gods, or other local gods of one's culture. Many, probably most, Buddhists do this. This is because what it is to be a Buddhist, and what it is to be e.g. a Christian, or a Muslim, are different. And if to be a Buddhist and to be a Christian are different, then Buddhism and Christianity qua 'religions' are different. Richard Gombrich has succinctly summed up what Buddhism is all about:

For Buddhists, religion is purely a matter of understanding and practising the Dhamma [Sanskrit: Dharma], understanding and practice which constitute progress towards salvation. They conceive salvation - or liberation, to use a more Indian term - as the total eradication of greed, hatred and delusion. To attain it is open to any human being, and it is ultimately the only thing worth attaining, for it is the only happiness which is not transient. A person who has attained it will live on so long as his body keeps going, but thereafter not be reborn. Thus he will never have to suffer or die again. For Buddhists, religion is what is relevant to this quest for salvation, and nothing else. (Gombrich 1988: 24)

Williams, Paul (2002-12-07). Buddhist Thought (p. 4). Taylor & Francis. Kindle Edition.

Mingyur Rinpoche states:

WHEN YOU’RE TRAINED as a Buddhist, you don’t think of Buddhism as a religion. You think of it as a type of science, a method of exploring your own experience through techniques that enable you to examine your actions and reactions in a nonjudgmental way, with the view toward recognizing, “Oh, this is how my mind works. This is what I need to do to experience happiness. This is what I should avoid to avoid unhappiness.” --- Swanson, Eric; Mingyur, Yongey Rinpoche; Daniel Goleman (2007-03-06). The Joy of Living: Unlocking the Secret and Science of Happiness (p. 10). Harmony. Kindle Edition.

Buddhism is not a religion

Thomas Merton states following regarding Zen Buddhism:

When we look a little closer however, we find very serious and responsible practitioners of Zen first denying that it is "a religion," then denying that it is a sect or school, and finally denying that it is confined to Buddhism and its "structure." For instance, one of the great Japanese Zen Masters, Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen, said categorically: "Anybody who would regard Zen as a school or sect of Buddhism and call it Zen-shu, Zen school, is a devil."

To define Zen in terms of a religous system or structure is in fact to destroy it--or rather to miss it completely... --- Thomas Merton, Zen and the Birds of Appetite, A New Directions Paperbook, p. 3

Narada Thera states:[6]

Is it a religion?

It is neither a religion in the sense in which that word is commonly understood, for it is not "a system of faith and worship owing any allegiance to a supernatural being."

Buddhism does not demand blind faith from its adherents. Here mere belief is dethroned and is substituted by confidence based on knowledge, which, in Pali, is known as saddha. The confidence placed by a follower on the Buddha is like that of a sick person in a noted physician, or a student in his teacher. A Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha because it was he who discovered the path of deliverance.

A Buddhist does not seek refuge in the Buddha with the hope that he will be saved by his (i.e. the Buddha's own) personal purification. The Buddha gives no such guarantee. It is not within the power of a Buddha to wash away the impurities of others. One could neither purify nor defile another. The Buddha, as teacher, instructs us, but we ourselves are directly responsible for our purification. Although a Buddhist seeks refuge in the Buddha, he does not make any self-surrender. Nor does a Buddhist sacrifice his freedom of thought by becoming a follower of the Buddha. He can exercise his own free will and develop his knowledge even to the extent of becoming a Buddha himself.

The starting point of Buddhism is reasoning or understanding, or, in the Pali words, samma-ditthi.

Buddhism is best described as a religion

Many sources commonly refer to Buddhism as a religion. For example:

• Donal Lopez states: "Rather than portray Buddhism as a philosophy or a way of life, as it is so often characterized in the West, I prefer to view Buddhism as a religion to which ordinary people have turned over the centuries for the means to confront, control, or even escape the exigencies of life."
• Peter Harvey states: "The English term 'Buddhism' correctly indicates that the religion is characterized by devotion to 'the Buddha', 'Buddhas', or 'buddhahood'."

Casually referred to as a religion

• Joseph Goldstein states: "Although there are many difference among the various religions of the world, and among the various schools of Buddhism itself, there is also a great deal in common..."

Limits of philosophy and theology

Ajahn Sucitto states:

Wisdom, too, can be taken to an extreme. It can be intellectually developed to the point where it loses contact with reality, as in the case of metaphysics. Philosophy and theology rely heavily upon intellectual understanding, yet fall short in the development of the wisdom that comes through attention to actual experience. So having a mind full of ideas does not necessarily grant us any clearer perspective on how to live our life. --- Sucitto, Ajahn (2010-09-14). Turning the Wheel of Truth: Commentary on the Buddha's First Teaching (p. 29). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

Source quotes - longer versions

Rupert Gethin:

I am not concerned here to pronounce on a question that is sometimes asked of Buddhism: is it a religion? Obviously it depends on how one defines ‘a religion’. What is certain, however, is that Buddhism does not involve belief in a creator God who has control over human destiny, nor does it seek to define itself by reference to a creed; as Edward Conze has pointed out, it took over 2,000 years and a couple of Western converts to Buddhism to provide it with a creed.12 On the other hand, Buddhism views activities that would be generally understood as religious—such as devotional practices and rituals—as a legitimate, useful, and even essential part of the practice and training that leads to the cessation of suffering.

Buddhism regards itself as presenting a system of training in conduct, meditation, and understanding that constitutes a path leading to the cessation of suffering. Everything is to be subordinated to this goal. And in this connection the Buddha’s teachings suggest that preoccupation with certain beliefs and ideas about the ultimate nature of the world and our destiny in fact hinders our progress along the path rather than helping it. - Gethin, Rupert (1998-07-16). The Foundations of Buddhism (pp. 65-66). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Walpola Rahula states:

The question has often been asked: Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy? It does not matter what you call it. Buddhism remains what it is whatever label you may put on it. The label is immaterial. Even the label ‘Buddhism’ which we give to the teaching of the Buddha is of little importance. The name one gives it is inessential.

What’s in a name? That which we call a rose,

By any other name would smell as sweet.

In the same way Truth needs no label: it is neither Buddhist, Christian, Hindu nor Moslem. It is not the monopoly of anybody. Sectarian labels are a hindrance to the independent understanding of Truth, and they produce harmful prejudices in men’s minds. --- Rahula, Walpola; Demieville, Paul (2007-12-01). What the Buddha Taught: Revised and Expanded Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada (Kindle Locations 316-323). Grove Press. Kindle Edition.

B. Allan Wallace states:

When we in the West first engage with Buddhism, it is almost inevitable that we bring out one of our familiar stereotypes and apply it to Buddhism, calling it simply a ‘religion.’... But Buddhism has never been simply a religion as we define it in the West. From the very beginning it has also had philosophical elements, as well as empirical and rational elements that may invite the term ‘science.’ --- Goleman, Daniel (2008-11-19). Destructive Emotions: A Scientific Dialogue with the Dalai Lama (Kindle Locations 1301-1305). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse:

Although essentially very simple, Buddhism cannot be easily explained. It is almost inconceivably complex, vast, and deep. Although it is nonreligious and nontheistic, it’s difficult to present Buddhism without sounding theoretical and religious. As Buddhism traveled to different parts of the world, the cultural characteristics it accumulated have made it even more complicated to decipher. Theistic trappings such as incense, bells, and multicolored hats can attract people’s attention, but at the same time they can be obstacles. People end up thinking that is all there is to Buddhism and are diverted from its essence. --- Khyentse, Dzongsar Jamyang (2011-03-11). What Makes You Not a Buddhist (p. 2). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.

Damien Keown:

Problems of the kind just mentioned confront us as soon as we try to define what Buddhism is. Is it a religion? A philosophy? A way of life? A code of ethics? It is not easy to classify Buddhism as any of these things, and it challenges us to rethink some of these categories. What, for example, do we mean by ‘religion’? Most people would say that religion has something to do with belief in God. God, in turn, is understood as a Supreme Being who created the world and the creatures in it. Furthermore, God takes a close interest (or at least has up to now) in the course of human history, by entering into covenants, making his will known in various ways, and intervening miraculously at critical junctures. [...] If belief in God in this sense is the essence of religion, then Buddhism cannot be a religion. [...] Some have suggested that a new category – that of the ‘non-theistic’ religion – is needed to encompass Buddhism. Another possibility is that our original definition is simply too narrow. --- Keown, Damien (2000-02-24). Buddhism: A Very Short Introduction (Kindle Locations 361-372). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Surya Das states:

For Buddhism is less a theology or religion than a promise that certain meditative practices and mind trainings can effectively show us how to awaken our Buddha-nature and liberate us from suffering and confusion. --- Awakening the Buddha Within, p. 16

Donald Lopez states:

It is only with the invention of the category of religion, with its obligatory constituents of a founder, sacred scriptures, and fixed body of doctrine, that Buddhism comes to be counted as a world religion. Even then [at the end of the nineteenth centure], it was judged by many Europeans as a rival to Christianity. - page 12

Rather than portray Buddhism as a philosophy or a way of life, as it is so often characterized in the West, I prefer to view Buddhism as a religion to which ordinary people have turned over the centuries for the means to confront, control, or even escape the exigencies of life. --- page 14

Peter Harvey states:

The English term 'Buddhism' correctly indicates that the religion is characterized by devotion to 'the Buddha', 'Buddhas', or 'buddhahood'. --- page 1 (An introduction to Buddhism)

Joseph Goldstein states:

ALTHOUGH THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENCES AMONG THE various religions of the world, and among the various schools of Buddhism itself, there is also a great deal in common, most noticeably when we begin the journey. For almost all of us, the first step on our spiritual path, the gateway of One Dharma, happens when we find ourselves yearning for a deeper understanding or a sense of peace and completion away from the superficial conventions and entanglements that often seem to engulf us. --- Goldstein, Joseph (2011-03-15). One Dharma: The Emerging Western Buddhism (p. 27). Harper Collins, Inc.. Kindle Edition.