User:CJLippert/archive/2007

Anishinaabe clan system

I split the article Anishinaabe clan system off of the main Ojibwa article. Right now it's very flawed, but has a lot of potential to be a good hub for all our other articles. I'm going to do as much as I can in that regard, but I ask that you please lend some of your expertise. Thanks Leo1410 22:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Started... even re-formatted some. CJLippert 17:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course...obviation. Gah! Miigwech for pointing that out to me, and fixing it. --Miskwito 04:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Robinson Treaty

I just thought I'd consult with you first because I don't have anything here on that, but, was not the Robinson treaty preceded by the Ojibwe peoples concern for White Men's (mining) activity, east of Lake Superior (and north of Lake Huron). The only one I know of is Bruce Mines [1]. Arthur Rankin had made the initial discovery and sold his claim to the Montreal Mining Company.

In the Robinson Treaty it is stated Penetanguishene was the southern boundary of the Lake Huron part of the Treaty, but I thought it was the Severn River (central Ontario) was the official boundary, Penetanguishene, Ontario being the only populated place to reckon with. Penetanguishene had been a place W B Robinson had known when he was a fur trader. It was by that experience that experience that he was able to negotiate the treaty, though prior to 1850, he was a laid off government employee.

The Fur Trade establishments at Penetanguishene were started there as an indirect result of the Naval and Military presence in that area from the early 1800's. Although I had posted the article about John Moberly (Royal Navy) most of what I know about Northern Ontario history, is stuff that took place after 1880.

I just think the Robinson Treaty should be linked with those things that brought the necessity for the treaty, at that time.

I thought you may know something about that, or at least be interested to learn more.

Brian Westhouse, Rexdale (Toronto).

Thanks for the info. This in part why Robinson-Huron was re-negotiated in 1854, then the Treaty 9 to determine the northern boundaries, then the Williams-Chippewa in 1923. The eastern-most boundary is, as the treaty states, Penetanguishene, Ontario. However, the current interpretation, unfortunately, is given precedence to the William Treaty with "The Chippewa Indians Of Christian Island, Georgina Island And Rama", signed October 31, 1923, which has caused havoc on the Canadian treaty scene, including with the Robinson-Huron, where the Williams Treaty sets the boundaries you describe. If the previous treaty terms were honoured, the negative impacts of Williams Treaty would have been less severe, as well as not infringing upon the lands of prior cession and the rights contained there-in. CJLippert 18:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Aramaic Wiktionary

Seeing your knowledge in Aramaic, I believe that you may be interested in something that has been recently proposed on Meta. :-) אמר Steve Caruso _(desk/AMA) • Give Back Our Membership! 06:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Anishinaabe Native Countries

CJLippert, I've found your Wikipedia work on the Anishinaabe interesting. I am gathering the names of Native countries of North America here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Countries_of_North_America. Do you know of any more you could add? Travis Henry 06:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the help CJLippert - the Wabanaki, the footnotes formatting, and the clarification on the Algonquian meanings. :-) Travis Henry 20:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Miishgoos says no problem

Thank you for improving the article way better than me lol

Anyway have a great day.

Hi, you are a great contributor and I would like to talk more with you about the Ojibwe. Please email me sometime at josephprymak@hotmail.com. I am in Manitoba, Canada, and there are plenty of Ojibwe or Anishinaabe up here. We are doing some research on them. I would like to know your opinions or knowledge about a variety of subjects.

Ojibwe Babel Userboxes

Hey CJLippert--just letting you know that I've responded to your (several month old) comment on the Wikipedia Babel talkpage, about the Anishinaabemowin userboxes. Take care, --Miskwito 08:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Algonquian

You can create the category, I don't mind at all, if you think it's a better definition of the language it's OK —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SISLEY (talk • contribs) 10:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

List of Native American Tribal Entities edit

You're right, the error is in the Federal Register. I presumed someone had added it to the list, to support the FIGR's claim that it's the successor to a Graton Rancheria "tribe". -- Mukrkrgsj 18:48, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Langboxes

*laugh* Is there a template for "I don't speak a word of the language, but I have a sister-in-law who does"? Bearcat 23:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There is the oj-0 of "I don't speak a word of the language" part. Hmm. I wonder if a joke userbox could be made with something to the effect of Ego:oj-0/BrSp:oj-N. For thought. CJLippert 23:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Quick question

Boozhoo, Jaanis. I'm not sure what this phrase is supposed to be saying: "today performed as last day of the Sun dance" (in the Wendigo article). Was it just a mistype? --Miskwito 21:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

enyenh. I'll go and fix it. i'iw. CJLippert 21:39, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Another quick question, so I'll just add it to this section. Is dakamise a valid Ojibwe word for "fly across"? It's not listed in the Freelang dictionary, although it seems like it might be, theoretically, grammatically possible. --Miskwito 02:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Is "dakamise" is a valid word?... well, it sure seems to fit, but if it isn't in the FLOj, it means either Guy or Weshki have not come across this word, and I know I haven't come across this word, and Kees -- who often is very helpful in contributing extra words from his research -- have not sent us an instance of this word, nor have any of our other regular submitters. The limitation of the FLOj is that it is limited to documented written records. The value of works of N&N (such as CDMO) or Rhodes, when compared to the FLOj, is that their works are based on one-on-one interviews with speakers.
So, let's analyse the word.
1) what is the difference between /aazhw/ and /dakam/? /aazhw/ across carries the idea of being perpendicular to the topic indicator, while /dakam/ across carries the idea of being a parallel to the topic indicator. As a slight variation, /aazhoge/ across carries the idea of getting to the other side while the first two are just crossing.
2) what is the difference between /bizo/ and /(i)se/? /bizo/ carries the idea of flying or driving with assistance, while /(i)se/ carries the idea of flying or moving independently.
In this context, "dakamise" would literally mean "SB/ST flies across [at OS will and in a parallel motion in relation to the topic indicator]... which still sounds like a valid word and can be used... and in most cases would be a (vai) so the definition would be "SB flies across [...]". Remember, just because it has not been recorded does not mean it doesn't exist. If it is the correct word to describe the action accurately, it is a valid word. This is how Anishinaabemowin works. If you come across a documented written source with this word in it, please submit it to the contact info found in FLOj's "readme" attachment. CJLippert 04:12, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

p.s. If the unasked question to the above is if Dakamise would be the Anishinaabemowin equivalent to the Shawnee "Tecumseh"?... the answer is "no." His name means "He who walks across" and the Anishinaabemowin equivalent would be Dakamose (see Rhodes' "EOCOD" entry (114a:8.0) for dkamse, sourced from Odawa of Walpole Island). CJLippert 04:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the info. That was the unasked question, yes. William Bright in "Native American Place Names of the United States" (p. 485) says his name is Shawnee /tkamʔθe/, which he says means "flies across", and gives as a cognate Menomini /tahkamehsɛːw/ (= tahkamehsāēw). I don't know where he got that etymology from; I can't check at the moment to see if he cites someone else or another work, but I'll be able to check tomorrow. --Miskwito 05:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

When Googling, "Panther passes across" seem to pop-up often. "Panther" is not in the actual name, but it may be implied; I would translate based on the form I'm familiar with not as "passes across" but rather as "walks across". CJLippert 16:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Historical phonology chart

Good idea. I'm not sure if you just haven't gotten around to changing the examples yet or what, but the words for "man" and "you" had *r or *l, rather than *ɬ or *θ. If you'd like I can look at the charts of the developement of PA *r/*l and *ɬ/*θ in the different Algonquian languages that appear in a paper by Marc Picard. I don't have the paper saved on this computer, though, so I won't be able to look it up until Monday. --Miskwito 23:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Para que sepas

I've responded to a many-months-old question of yours on the "Moose" talk page --Miskwito 09:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I remember now that Proto-Algonquian *m- was the X possessor prefix, which was mostly lost in Anishinaabemowin (I guess it survived in certain individual words, though). I can check JSTOR to try to see who did the work with it in Menomini (maybe Bloomfield? He did a lot with Menomini). But since -/oozw/ (PA *-ōswa) is a derivational suffix, I'm not sure it would work to just use it on its own with a possessive prefix. Unless it originally was a separate noun as well that became a derivational suffix through frequent incorporation, but retained its 'separate noun' status with m- prefixed. Even then, though, I'm not sure why an animal name would be a dependent noun. --Miskwito 00:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Greg Sarris

Hiya - saw you on the Talk page for Federated Indians of Graton Rancheria and was wondering if you'd care to swing by Greg Sarris as well? The same user who's slanting that article heavily against Sarris has now twice reverted that page to his original (not exactly pro-Sarris) version, which begins to make me wonder if a campaign is being waged here. Vizjim 11:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Vizjim 13:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Da Bears

The world really is a tiny place when it comes right down to it, isn't it? (BTW, see what happens? You look at my user page, and suddenly yours is infested with userboxes too! They're like wiki-termites!) Chimakwa 02:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Wawatay

Thanks. For what it's worth, though, as far as I know most of the transmitters are just rebroadcasters and only the Sioux Lookout stations actually originate programming. I might be wrong about that, admittedly. But by Wikipedia convention, only stations that actually originate some programming should actually have articles, and any of the other call signs should exist only as redirects to the article on the programming source. Bearcat 00:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Chief Earth Woman

Aaniin, Charlie. Have you seen this article before? It doesn't really give me any context, but what it does say I find kind of suspicious (starting with the fact that the article title seems to imply she was a chief, which isn't mentioned in the article itself). I've left some more concerns on the talk page of the article. But since you're far more knowledgeable about Ojibwe history and culture than I am, I was wondering if you're familiar with this woman, and if the article sounds plausible to you. Miigwech, --Miskwito 03:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll look around; I haven't seen this article before. There have been ogimaakweg in the past, but this is where her name in Ojibwe would help... is she Chief (title) Earth-Woman (name) or a Chief (title) named Chief-Earth-woman? Also, which Band/Community was she associated with? What campaigns was she involved in? Was she a party to any treaty negotiation and was treaty signatory? I'll pose the same questions at the article's talk page. CJLippert 13:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Anishinaabe language

The second part of the Examples - Translation section here seems oddly phrased. An error? Vizjim 12:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What is oddly phrased: Ojibwe or English? Both, are excerpts from another site (used with permission). About the only thing that is different with the Wikipedia example not on the Bemidji State University site is that the Wikipedia adds a map link and provides a translation that the city of Inger, Minnesota in Ojibwemowin literally is "by the Big Bowstring [River]". The English is Nylohm's translation, which is done in a typical speaking style of Elders... in this case, of the Leech Lake Indian Reservation. Another typical characteristic of older Ojibwe who are English speakers is to say "it" for all Ojibwe inanimates and "he" for Ojibwe animates (ex. "Last night, my daughter, he went to the store to get sugar for me.") CJLippert 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, I also responded on Vizjim's talk page --Miskwito 01:14, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

And I've responded on Miskwito's page - it's the map ref I find odd, not the wording. Vizjim 06:04, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The map annotation is there only because there isn't an article yet for Inger, Minnesota. Once an article has been started for there, the map reference will move to that page and off the Anishinaabe language page. Also, the term used in that story is sort of specific. It refers to the section of the Bowstring River located between Sand Lake and Bowstring Lake, and not the Bowstring Lake or the Bowstring River upstream of the lake. The village of Inger is located along that particular stretch of water, so though it may or may not be exactly Inger, the English translation that was given was Inger. The map link is for Inger, but the idea was to show which part of the Bowstring River that was of topic in the story. CJLippert 14:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I just checked out the US Census Bureau's information for Inger, and there isn't one. Checking Itasca County's map provided by the Minnesota Department of Transportation, it says that in 1977, the population of Inger was estimated at 120. I guess this means Inger is an unincorporated place. CJLippert 14:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Native Countries of North America

Hi, thanks for your continued help with the Native Countries page - your pointing out the Algonquian Freelang dictionaries has been a great boost.

However, I feel it is best to not include the name Malihkinuwi-Waponahkik in the page, since this is simply the Maliseet-Passamaquoddy name for the State of Maine (and also the part of Wabanaki Country that lies within the United States) - not the name of a Native Country. The page is not a collection of Native American geographic names in general, only names for whole Native homelands.

Reference: [2]

Regarding Birch Bark Biting

Hey thanks...I didn't know what it was called in Ojibway. I interviewed an artist who is a practitioner of this craft and I just thought it was Too Damn Cool not to have it in Wiki. I actually do a number of Native American-related entries, based on my work as an art critic in Santa Fe. Check out my list sometime and if you see anything that needs help, feel free! Gregoryptm 19:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Kurów on Ojibwe language

Could you please write a stub about my hometown Ojibwe language here - just a few sentences based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur%C3%B3w ? Only 3-5 sentences enough. Please.

PS. Article about Kurów is already on 166 languages. If you do that, please put interwiki link into English version. If your village/town/city hasn't on PL wiki, I can do article about it. (I'm first author of requests) Pietras1988 ^TALK 18:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Master list of Anishinaabe communities

I've been thinking about it for a while, and I finally started it for organization's sake as much as anything. I'm not ready to move it off my sandbox yet, but eventually, I want a section for each state and province. Please take a look at what I put together so far and tell me if it's a good look for the list. What should and shouldn't be there? Would you replace the large "communities" boxes with perhaps population and land base? Plus, I know you will be the wikipedian to ask about treaties and alternate names. The link is User:Leo1410/Sandbox. chi-Miigwech Leo1410 15:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, before you get too far, let's try something a bit differently. For one, there are MANY treaties, so just listing one would not be adequate. In addition some reservations were established by Executive Order. In Canada, same deal: some are multiple treaty signatories and many are still in Land Claims commission as we speak. Having them in their primary State/Province would be OK, but please realise that some tribes are located in multiple States. With that said, see if you can have the following entries:

Name (each section separated by a bar)
1. name in English (since this is en.wiki)
2. name in Anishinaabemowin/Anishininiimowin (syllabics, if a syllabics-using community)
3. name in Anishinaabemowin/Anishininiimowin (dominant Roman? Fiero?... I think this needs discussion with whole)
Seal (if available)
Alternate Name (same deal as the "Name" column)
Successorship
Recognision Status (US:US-recognized/non-independent/State-recognized/non-recognized; CA:status/non-status)
Council
1. Tribal Council (e.g. US: MCT; CA: Ogemawahj)
2. Tribal Political Organization (e.g. US: ITCM; CA: NAN)
3. Tribal Treaty Administrant (e.g. US: GLIFWC; CA: same at TPO above)
Reservation/Reserve (n.b. many FN and OK-tribes have shared Reserves/OTSA; many everwhere have multiple reserves/reservations; many in CA had reserves that were lost)
Communities (n.b. many FN have shared communities)

I think you will need to work on this a bit and have the ability to play around with the columns and entries until they flow well. Good luck CJLippert 03:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestions. Trying to pack the most/best information into the table is the tricky part for sure. Really, this should be 3 or 4 different lists. I've been too busy for wiki lately, but I'll try to pick away at it.

Leo1410 23:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Language map

WikiThanks

Wow, nice work! It's hard for me to tell if virtually all the communities not in Oklahoma have diffusion rings, although it looks like it. I can't immediately see anything to complain about (although as your comments on my map showed, you clearly know more about this than I do) --Miskwito 02:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I just saw the map myself and had to come comment -- it's really cool! Chimakwa 23:15, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Though I appreciate the positive comments, what I would really appreciate are some constructive criticisms to improve that map. CJLippert 00:31, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Reducing the size of the diffusion rings gets rid of most of my concerns. I know this is intended to be a current map of language usage. My comments about history refer to how well this map shows the linguistic legacy of Anishinaabemowin on the geography of North America--toponyms and such. Of course, the real goal is showing where the language is spoken now. I don't know that you could make a better map than this. Data are fairly reliable for where Anishinaabe people live (those status or enrolled anyway) but I don't think you could find reliable data on language usage and fluency. Here in Northern Ontario, where the langauge is widely spoken as a first language, I think the census choices are Cree, Ojibway, and Other Algonquin. I think you can see how this is problematic--what does an Oji-Cree speaker choose? My one question is why does Moberly Lake, BC look so small? and my OR is that including Madison, Milwaukee, and Wausau is too optimistic. What is the standard to be considered a fluent speaker? Yes there is probably a university professor or cultural leader or two in each of those cities, but isn't it more accurate to include them with their home reservations? Of course, some of the reservations have only a couple native speakers too. If our standard for a speaker is somewhere less than fluency--as in someone who can say makwa, nookomis, miigwech, and boozhoo is a speaker--then mapping the locations of Anishinaabe people should be fairly sufficient. Leo1410 03:38, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

thanks!!

thanks for the help with the odawa-ojibway language!!--Sonjaaa 16:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Minnesota place names

Aaniin. Just a quick note that my understanding is that page is primarily for a handful of the most notable/important places from each region/state/whatever, and to then eventually have links to more detailed individual articles. So I don't think a list that long will work; maybe get rid of the red links to start with, at least? You know more about Minnesota than I do, so I'm not really sure what's notable and what's not (although, despite the fact that Minnehaha, Minnesota is a red link, Minnehaha Creek or the likes should still be included, for example)... Take care, --Miskwito 20:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

The list just has the names. They will have to be separated out into categories. Minnehaha, Minnesota was a red link only because Wiki thinks it is a city, but in reality it is both the creek and falls, so they have been identified as such and are now blue links. Though I have commented-out most of the red links, some major ones, such as Lake Winnibigoshish was left visible (hoping someone would get the hint... I can't do it all). Currenly, about half were identified and classified. Rest that I have commented out still need identification. CJLippert 21:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

just wondering....

why was the Augustine Band of Cahuilla Indians, California page deleted?comments by Onopearls on 20:05, 17 July 2007

Don't know... Let me see... Hold on. Ah! Found it. Here is the reason:

06:25, 20 April 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard deleted Augustine Band of Cahuilla Indians, California (broken redirect: content was: '#REDIRECT Augustine Band of Cahuilla Indians' (and the only contributor was 'CJLippert'))
06:24, 20 April 2007 User:Anthony Appleyard deleted Augustine Band of Cahuilla Mission Indians of the Augustine Reservation, California (broken redirect: content was: '#REDIRECT Augustine Band of Cahuilla Indians' (and the only contributor was 'CJLippert'))

It appears, I have put in a redirect on both the current and previous names to the Augustine Band of Cahuilla Indians, which would still be a red link. In addition, Coachella, California article already contains a link (though currently red) to the same. If you're willing to start the article, and re-install the re-directs to that article, it would be helpful. Did that answer your question? CJLippert 20:23, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

List formatting

Saw your query on list formatting for the Indian Reservations page; similar issues of boring-looking lists are also on parallel Canadian pages; I've used table formats seen in the Indigenous peoples' project on such pages as List of ghost towns in British Columbia and List of Royal Navy ships in the Pacific Northwest and others, including List of Chinook Jargon placenames. Try using those as templates, and make one for each section.Skookum1 03:16, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Ojibwe phonology

(moved from User_talk:Miskwito)

Aaniin niijii. It may be worth the while to mention that the lenis is in a shift towards being voiced, I suspect mainly due to Ojibwe-as-a-Second-Language learners and the Fiero Orthography, much like the Chinese Pin-yin Romanization (also a fortis/lenis) being pronounced in English as unvoiced/voiced. If you can source this, it would be good. CJLippert 16:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Aaniin. I thought I had kept mention of the voiced/voiceless distinction being in some communities. But it's true that I don't think the article anywhere mentions that this is a recent development out of the old "lenis/fortis" one. I have a photocopy of an old article cowritten by Rhodes about Ojibwe and Cree dialectology that mentions the realizations of the obstruents in different Ojibwe dialects, so I'll see if it mentions that. I don't have anywhere near as much knowledge as you do on variation in Ojibwe, unfortunately, and from what I can tell much of your knowledge comes from first hand experience. Which of course can't be cited :( --Miskwito 18:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You have, but what is missing is that lenis is transitioning to voiced and that fortis is transitioning to unvoiced. Without that correspondence it sort of misses the point on "what" is moving to "where." Hopefully, a citation, if you find one, will also discuss the "why" of this transition. I'm sure at some communities, this transition have been going on for a while; while on others, it is strictly the Second-Language Learner phenomenon; and yet for others, it is the influence from other communities that have transitioned or are in the process of transitioning. CJLippert 18:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Grey Owl's Name

Aaniin. Just letting you know that I responded to your several-month old question about the exact source of Belaney's name "Grey Owl" over at Talk:Grey Owl#Wa-sha-quon-asin?, although what I've found just raises more questions as well. Take care, --Miskwito 01:39, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That does raise more questions, don't it? For the e-mail I got, the speaker was from White Earth, which I was able to confirm their word wenjiganoozhiinh for "owl" at Mille Lacs. As for Rand, we can e-mail him directly and ask. CJLippert 13:00, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Joseph Gilfillan

CJLippert, I'm totally out of my area of expertise and mostly out of my area of greatest interest, but I started an article on Joseph Gilfillan. I'm hoping you know where/how I could find out more about the man, because despite his good reputation and evident scholarship, I'm not finding much online. Spottacus 18:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added a bit more. Does that help? If you have full access to JSTOR, you may be able to glean more information. As a note, Dr. John D. Nichols (as in the editor of the Concise Dictionary of Minnesota Ojibwe) is currently doing an extensive comparative analyses of the toponyms Gilfillan records in his papers, but I don't know when Dr. Nichols will publish his examination/review of Gilfillan Papers. CJLippert 21:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

That's awesome, dude. I don't know much about the subject, but I post what info I run across that seems interesting, and you can't write about Minnesota places without reading a lot about Native American language and history. That's how I bumped into Gilfillan. I hope that someone else with more knowledge and desire will eventually become interested in the guy. Spottacus 22:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Lake Osakis and the Leaf Hills Moraines

Thanks for your attention to these articles, CJ. In future, when I work on an article with an Ojibwa translation, would you mind if I drop you a line? I'd like an authoritative scan of the relevant text. Spottacus 23:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

In the Freelang project, we've gone through much toponyms already. The site now has an online version of the database, so just head over and check it out. The spelling is all in the "double vowel" orthography. CJLippert 23:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Society barnstar

Presented by Wikidemo 06:34, 11 September 2007

Thanks. Not perfect but it goes a long way. CJLippert 03:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We were talking about you.

Kablammo had suggested a visit out to Tenney for the sightseeing and historical opportunities. I'd really like to host some folks, but it'll only happen if others are interested. Let me know if you're up for it, and I can put together a tour of the town and a meal for anyone who comes. I just need to know that there's interest and I need to know when. By the way, nice work on the Long Prairie River article. Your contributions are appreciated. Brain Rodeo 19:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheyenne language

Indigenous American Barnstar presented by Yksin

There are a number of Cheyenne names (as well as Kiowa, Comanche, etc.) in Medicine Lodge Treaty -- basically, the names of all the signatories. Based on your corrections to the orthography in other articles, my guess is the spelling of names is problematic in the treaty article too... but there's also the issue that the names as given now are the names as they were spelled on the actual treaty itself by whatever ad hoc standards prevailing when they were signed, & it seems important to retain those spellings. But it also seems important to include the more accurate modern orthography. Do you have any suggestions? I hope to create at least stub articles for some of the signatories -- at least the Cheyenne ones -- & would certainly want the correct orthography in those articles. Thanks again for how you've already improved the ones that are out there. --Yksin 17:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I notice that the Cheyenne version of Little Rock's name as given on the Medicine Lodge Treaty was transcribed as O-ni-hah-ket -- which seems very different from Hō-hăn-ĭ-no-o′. Is it a variation? --Yksin 17:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the barnstar.

Since this is the English Wikipedia, if the person's name or the word is given in English, that should be the way we present it. However, the article should also contain the most common spelling in an attempt to phonetically transcribe the name/word, along with redirects, so that the people out on the web could do a search and their search will lead them to the appropriate Wikipedia article. (See Little Turtle as an example.) This means that Mo-nah-se-tah may need to move to Spring Grass, and within the article, provide the common transcription, note(s) on transcription variation, the actual name (using the current orthography) and meaning to either correct or clarify the recieved name. Some names have so many variations, including multiple languages, that for those situations I just have been creating the article with the English name, but in the various articles provide a link in the treaty articles with the the current orthography. (See Treaty of La Pointe as an example of this.) As for the treaties, many time people cite Kappler's, which is an excellent resource, BUT it is only good as the typesetters of that work. Consequently, I have found numerous errors, possibly going from the handwritten document to the typesetted document, and once printed, the error was perpetuated. Among treaties associated with the Ojibwe/Chippewa, I have come across many instances of "c" printed instead of "e" or "n" printed instead of "m" or in some cases "k" or "b" or "h" being one of the other two. This ranks up there with people typesetting the long s "ſ" instead as "f". (Example: 1847 Treaty of Fond du Lac has a signatory "Maj-c-wo-we-clung", whom his name ought to have been transcribed as "Maj-e-wa-we-dung" (Maajiwewidang/"Starts Speaking").)

As for O-ni-hah-ket/Hō-hăn-ĭ-no-o′, it may be the same variation situation as Chief Buffalo, who is refered as "Peezhickee" (Buffalo) in early documents but presented as "Ke-che-waish-ke" (Great Renewer) but still referred as Buffalo in later documents. My guess in the case of "Hō-hăn-ĭ-no-o′" this may be a later name, while "O-ni-hah-ket" being the earlier name, and if the patterns of the US Government holds consistant, "O-ni-hah-ket" would imply being "Little Rock" (and it also resembles closer to Ho'honahke, but with "t"), which may account for the disconnect between the more common "Hō-hăn-ĭ-no-o′" with its received translation. However, at this point, it becomes original research so unless you can find something in liturature to back this claim, it can't be in Wikipedia. CJLippert 18:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your lengthy reply. Oh yes, transcription problems... I have a lengthy story about the lengths I went to before I finally found my Finnish great-grandfather's record of arrival at Ellis Island due to these kinds of problems. Okay, I won't worry overmuch about Little Rock's name in the Medicine Lodge Treaty; we'll have to go on that article with Kappler as the reliable source. On the name of Mo-nah-se-tah's article: I think a stronger argument for retaining the name as it is is that it (or spelling variations of it) is the most common name used for her in English sources. In fact, in the WP:NAME section about using English words, it says "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form" (emphasis added). --Yksin 19:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheyenne military societies

Just want to say you're doing some fantastic work on this article. --Yksin 22:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. CJLippert 01:05, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello from Amsterdam

Hi Charles, thanks again for your help on the Dutch Ojibwe article. Jawaano has checked your changes and most were indeed improvements. In a rare few cases the wrong word was given due to the wrong Babel translation (Babel sucks and makes people sound like demented robots!) I'm hoping to get featured article status for the article. Best regards, Jvhertum 14:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Brass or copper: six of one...?

Hi. Thank you for the extensive answer. You obviously have studied the language for quite some time and are very conversant with Anishinaabemowin and with language in general. Your answer is quite enlightening, at some points. As for syllables: but I DO read (and write) Oji-Cree syllables. In fact I (sometimes) sign my own (art) work with my given name Zhaawano Giizhik, southern white cedar, in Cree syllables. I was also aware of the fact that Norval Morrisseau used to sign his art with 'brass bird' written according Eeyou-syllabarium. But I was also under the impression that this was 'just' his personal/spiritual interpretation (perhaps influenced by the Eeyou culture of his wife?) of his REAL given name, Miskwaabik Animiiki. Anyway, thank you for reminding me of the reason why there seems to be a 'discrepancy' in the two names - which in my opinion, is not really a discrepancy considering the 'Native' outlook on life: all visible things in life (perhaps even names!) are just outward manifestations of 'things' of a much deeper level or meaning. My guess is that this animistic outlook explains the obscurity that surrounds the etymology of many Native American names. E.g.: my own name Zhaawano Giizhik, has a meaning that is much deeper than the superficial translation ‘Southern Cedar’. The same goes for the word Anishinaabe. (But of course this is something I don’t have to explain to you).

I’d like to continue this very interesting topic in the near future.

Best wishes,. 20:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Any time. BTW, there is an amature Anishinaabemowin linguist who is really good at what he does. He's a retired computer programmer with a keen sense of analysis... and he is Dutch. Try Googling the terms "Kees Ojibwe" and from his site, e-mail him. CJLippert 20:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Chi Miigwech/ much obliged! I found Kees on the internet. His name is Kees van Kolmeschate and his mail address is KeesvKolmeschate [at] hetnet.nl

Jaawano. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.207.185.135 (talk) 13:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A problem of loyalty

Interesting! Now you force me to reconstruct how I came up with Manaboozhoo. Let me think back hard. I could be wrong but I think that the reason why I spell the name of the Giant Hare Hero (or is it a rabbit?) with double o, stems from the fact(?) that his name comes from Niningaji, trembles, and Oozoo, shortened from Oozoowaanag, which means ‘tail’. ‘Trembling tail’ in this context means something like ‘yellow belly’, someone who is afraid to take risks or responsibility. I wouldn’t be surprised, though, if the academic spelling of the name in Fiero orthography is not Oozoo but Ozo (or Ozho?). If that is the case, the ‘’correct’’ spelling would be Manabozho. I grant you that!

Now, your strict academic approach faces me with a (luxury) problem; a question of loyalty really. Do I honor academic consistency at all times, or do I approach the language in a more emotional (or artistic) manner? Since I am not an academic person nor a scientist I tend to write words and names phonetically, and at the same time apply the double vowel system. The objective is two-fold: by representing the basic sounds of Ojibwemowin phonetically I am able to stay as close as possible to the nature of the language (and the speaker's mind frame), and by applying double vowels and a consistent use of the b, d, g , k, m, n, w, z consonants as well as ch sh and zh sounds , I settle accounts with the way Ojibwe sounds have been filtered through European ears for the last 350 years or so. (Using the glottal stop by means of an apostrophe would make things too complicated in the context of writing common, non-linguistic articles for Wikipedia I think.)

If I understand you correctly, what you say is that by representing words phonetically and at the same time using double vowels, I do not follow the academic rules of Fiero Orthography in a coherent way. But wasn’t the Fiero Orthography meant to improve the older Baraga-Lacombe system, which only uses short vowels? The way I see it, the difference between the short vowels in the older Baraga-Lacombe Orthography and the long vowels in the Fiero Orthography is essential since it indicates fundamental differences in meaning of words and expressions. Fiero introduced the double vowel system, in which the long vowels are distinguished from the paired short vowels by being written double, and a new set of rules regarding consonants, so that the voicing of, for instance, the weak consonants is written consistently. Isn’t that what the Fiero system is all about? Stay as close to the basic sounds by writing words phonetically, by means of the double vowel system and a by a consistent spelling of the various consonants?

Frankly Charles I’m less interested in spelling Ojibwe words in a very strict academic fashion or for cross-community goals than in staying as close as possible to the ´general´ Ojibwe cultural mind frame . My goal was to write an article about Ojibwe culture of past and present from my own experience, not a theoretical study on the language. The name for the Great Hare, depending on the dialect (whether the prefix is Ma-, Na-, or Wi-), is sometimes pronounced with short o’s that sound like the English ‘obey’ or ‘book’, and other times with o’s that sound like the English ‘boat’ or ‘hoof’. I chose for a double o spelling for etymologic reasons and because ‘Manaboozhoo’, in my ears and eyes, sounds and looks and 'feels' the most ‘Ojibwe’. Maintaining consistency with a purely theoretical model comes second.

Kind regards,

Jaawano 10-09-07 15:35 CET —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.207.185.135 (talk) 13:37, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Nakwetamowin

Boozhoo anii. We totally agree with each other here then. I'll take the tip and add a note in my article that I use the double vowel system, and at the same time stay as close as possible to the phonetical representation of words and names, instead of following strict academical spelling standards. This way there will be no misunderstanding.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and tips with me!

Gego anizhiitangen,

Jaawano 09-10-07 16:30 CET —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.207.185.135 (talk) 14:35, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hermann Baumann Citations

Of course the Ojibwa believed along the lines of Animate and Inanimate, not Male and Female. In Amerindian culture it was common and accepted for members to choose their gender role. My reason for revert was that I believe the citation was sketchy. I'll take your word for the map on p. 40 of Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors book citing Hermann Baumann research. I surmised it must have been a map or list of some kind[[3]]. My reason was that the citation ought to be from the primary source, a Hermann Baumann book, which are in German. Moreover he was an African anthropologist and would be pushing his expertise on documentation of dozens of ethno groups around the world (Did he visit and study them all?). As an anthropologist, I'm not sure I trust Feinberg's research, but I'd trust Baumann's. However since you have the book it's your judgment call on its validity. -Kain Nihil 12:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the google book search, the book by Leslie Feinberg's research especially the map, which does not seem randomized and probably came from a scholarly book considering the ethno names and locatoins, seems legitimate. The quote should be as is, sorry for the trouble. -Kain Nihil 19:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Redirect of Whitefish Bay First Nation

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re WT:ETHNIC#Redundant project boxes.3F

Hi CJ,

I posted a reply to your query on WT:ETHNIC. Short version: Go ahead and delete overlapping ETHNIC boxes as needed. later! --Ling.Nut 01:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Teiaiagon

I'll keep an eye on it. I'll also ask the Canadian notice board for input. -- Bearcat (talk) 20:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :)

I was half way through before I realized I could put a category into the Nishnawbe Aski template, but I figured I'd just add the rest of the communities manually. :P I've also changed a few "Name, Ontario" to "Name First Nation" to fit in, a few don't follow the naming rule with First Nations. vıdıoman (talk • contribs) 06:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Vine Deloria, Jr.

Thank You, for at least moving the comment to second page on deloria. There are many many references to how important deloria is to both individuals and to institutions. Thank you for not erasing this comment entirely. But if you think that it should be on the first page of deloria, why not fix it to what your standards are? I am sorry. I can barely understand all your wikipedia code. And have little computer time available to me to understand it. I would hope that someone who cares enough about Deloria to maintain a watch over his memorial page would be more interested in gaining a balanced understanding of him. and his importance to the community, instead of just erasing a part of his impact on our people and our shared nation. Please, if you are watching this dont just erase it, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.243.26.227 (talk) 18:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Image:OjibweSyllabics-jp.gifへの出典とライセンス明記のお願い

28px|

出典とライセンスがありません

こんにちは。Image:OjibweSyllabics-jp.gifをアップロードして頂き、ありがとうございます。しかし、この画像（ファイル）には出典が明記されていないため、著作権の状態が明らかになっておりません。出典とライセンスが明らかでないファイルは、1週間後に削除されますので御注意ください。

このファイルがあなた自身による著作ではない、あるいはそのようなファイルをあなたが加工したものならば、ファイルの（原）著作者、ウェブサイトへのリンクなどファイルの入手先など出典、そしてこのファイルがウィキペディアの画像利用の方針に沿っているという根拠を示す必要があります。あなた自身の撮影・著作であるならばその旨を明記してくださいますようお願い致します。

加えて、その画像をどのようなライセンスでウィキペディアに提供するのかを明記してください。画像の著作権表示タグを添付するのが簡単ですので、その中から、この画像（ファイル）の著作権の状態にあてはまるタグをご利用ください。タグの意味は、画像の著作権表示タグに書いてあります。なお、「非営利のみ利用可」「利用には許可が必要」などの自由な利用ができないファイルのアップロードは認められません。どうぞよろしくお願いします。

出典とライセンスを明記する際は画像ページにアクセスし「編集」タブをクリックして記載してください。同画像を再アップロードしても記入した内容は反映されません。

重要: あなたがこのファイルの他にもファイルをアップロードされているならば、あなたのアップロード記録を見て、他のファイルにも同様に出典とライセンスが明記されているかどうか今すぐ確認してください。それらのファイルや、今後あなたがアップロードされたファイルに出典やライセンスが記載されていなければ、同様に削除されます。 Wakkubox 2007年12月8日 (土) 22:50 (UTC)

Season's Greetings

Season's Greetings!