User:Andrewa/P T test cases
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In that all pages belong to the whole project, any user may edit this one. But it's generally more helpful (and polite) to discuss the proposed change on its talk page first.
 | This page in a nutshell: Some examples are particularly relevant to the foreshadowed Primary Topic RfC, see talk |
Alphabetical
Macedonia
[edit]Macedonia can mean
and others, but the others seem relatively uncontroversial (so far as Wikipedia naming policy is concerned at least), being for example historic uses.
There was an RfC at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia)/2019 RFC, and there's an ARBCOM page Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia most recently updated February 2019.
And there are other relevant pages currently in the see also section of the DAB, such as United Macedonia aka Greater Macedonia. (And probably others not there at all.) How is that one controversial? Read on!
Because the names of all topics concerning Macedonia are extremely sensitive in the wider sense. One IP posted the mere utter of the word Macedonia in any name such as "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" or "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or even "Old MacDonald Had a Farm, Macedonia, Eeeiaieeeaiooo" creates EXTREME SOCIAL UNREST AND UPHEAVAL... the mere mention in the Wikipedia page with the title "Socialist Republic of Macedonia" contributes to the already tense relations between the two neighboring countries of Greece, and Turkey ( see: http://voiceofmacedonia.blogspot.com/2018/02/blog-post_66.html ). Therefore, if Wikipedia wants to perpetuate this historical error, as well as further intensify the relations of Greece with its neighbors, then by all means, let Wikipedia support this lie, that the peoples living in this, basically unnamed break-up republic from the old Yugoslavia, are somehow related or associated, with the name "Macedonia." Please, don't do it. Please take down the page, with title "Socialist Republic of Macedonia." [1] The linked blog reads in part (in Greek) The Turkish president described the Greek objections as "unfair" to Skopje's inclusion in NATO, saying: "Turkey will always be on the side of" Macedonia "and will not allow it to change its name".
We even have an article Macedonia naming dispute, a closed discussion at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Macedonia, and a naming convention Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Macedonia) whose talk page has five pages of archives.
FYROM stands for Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Both redirect to North Macedonia, as does Republic of Macedonia. Talk:North Macedonia currently has 27 pages of archives, much of them concerning the article name, and other subpages on the naming question, such as Talk:North Macedonia/FYROM name support position.
Talk:Macedonia has only three archive pages. Talk:Macedonia (region) has too many to count, mostly dedicated to the naming dispute. Talk:Macedonia (region) has six pages of archives.
Overall there seems to be consensus that it's best to have the DAB at the base name, regardless of Primary Topic.
Conclusion: There may be a Primary Topic, but it is pointless to even ask. Different people will arrive at different answers. But in any case, the best solution here is to have all of these articles at unambiguous names. This is the current situation and has been confirmed by many discussions.
Current policy works sort of, but only because it is being (wisely) ignored! The current setup reduces but does not eliminate the smell of POV, and relies both on WP:IAR and on ARBCOM action.
Proposal would fix all of this.
Mathematics
[edit]Mathematics seems uncontroversial. There is no suggestion that it will ever be moved, nor even any suggestion as to how it would be disambiguated if it were to be.
Conclusion: Some articles should remain at ambiguous names. This does not necessarily mean that new articles, or articles that are moved for some other reason, should be given ambiguous names.
Current policy works.
Proposal would not change this.
New York
[edit]New York City is probably the Primary Topic of New York, but the best solution is to have that article at an unambiguous name, as currently following NYRM2017.
At the risk of arguing from silence, there has been no proposal to test whether New York City is the Primary Topic, which may indicate consensus to leave the DAB at the base name New York. See Wikipedia talk:NYRM2018#Why I do not intend to proceed and this more recent discussion.
The most important thing to note here is the possible consensus to leave the DAB at the base name even if there is a Primary Topic.
And it's also an example of how successfully the current policy and procedures can be circumvented.
Current policy has failed spectacularly in the past and continues to fail, relying on WP:IAR.
Proposal would fix it all.
- The rare if not unique problem with New York is that even though the city article clearly gets more page views than the state article does, we have no of way knowing how often people use just "new york" to search for the city vs the state. Is it half of the searches? 25%? 90%? Who knows? I think it's a special case and consensus finally got it right to put the dab page at the base name. If for no other reason other than it's not clear if New York City is the primary topic for "New York". I don't think this is a good example for anything else. --В²C ☎ 00:32, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Primary Topic is not well defined for New York City vs New York State because they are not independent topics. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:51, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
- Fascinating suggestion. Discuss at User talk:Andrewa/P T test cases#Independent topics. Andrewa (talk) 20:13, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Paris
[edit]At first sight Paris seems no more controversial than #Mathematics, but there have been suggestions (straw men perhaps?) that it should be moved if P T were to be deprecated. [2] [3] [4]
Apart from these, it seems another case of an existing article that should not be moved from its ambiguous base name.
Current policy works.
Proposal would not change this.
- Both Paris and Paris, France would work fine for all users. It has an extremely strong claim for primary topic. It should not be moved per WP:TITLECHANGES. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:58, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
The Americans
[edit]This example is disputed. Discuss at User talk:Andrewa/P T test cases#The Americans disputed, and/or feel free to add your own opinion below.
Opinion of Born2cycle
[edit]The Americans (2013 TV series) was moved to the base name following an RM.
The RM was proposed by a fan of the TV series (yours truly) [5] who found it annoying to be taken to the DAB every time he wanted to look something up about the show. [6]
Although it was noted during the RM [7] [8] and by the closer [9] that the Primary Topic might change again in the future, this is true for any Primary Topic. If this happens, incoming and internal links will be broken, just like for any title change; we have procedures and processes in place to help with these changes. But I believe the odds of this particular primary topic changing are relatively low, given the very low view counts of all the other uses of "The Americans" and no indication these other uses will ever increase by any significant degree, especially relative to this award winning ground-breaking TV series which is likely to remain iconic for decades, if not centuries. The only realistically likely reason for primary topic to change here is if some new use of "The Americans" is created and eclipses the TV series use. But, again, this potential here is no different than it is for any other primary topic. So what?
The move was according to current policy, and was surely in the best interests of readers, since the vast majority of those searching with “the americans” will now be taken directly to the article they’re seeking. It would not be better to have the DAB permanently at the base name, though another contributor has since remarked a dab would indeed seem best. diff But they also didn't see this as a good example (though Andrewa does), for reasons I still cannot understand, despite the following section.
Current policy has worked marvelously.
Proposal would make things worse for the vast majority of users using the search term "The Americans" in WP GO Search (others are unaffected and so irrelevant to the question of whether this change makes things better or worse for them).
Opinion of Andrewa
[edit]The Americans (2013 TV series) was moved to the base name following an RM.
The RM was proposed by a fan of the TV series [10] who, as a mobile user, found it extremely annoying to be taken to the DAB. [11]
It was noted during the RM [12] [13] and by the closer [14] that the Primary Topic is likely to change again in the future. If this happens, links both incoming and internal will be broken.
The move was according to current policy, but was probably not in the best interests of readers. It would be better to have the DAB permanently at the base name; Another contributor has since remarked a dab would indeed seem best. [15] But they didn't see this as a good example (I disagree obviously), and there is no point in move review or another requested move at present.
Conclusion: While we must be careful of wp:BALL, there seems a high likelihood that this is just a temporary Primary Topic, and several users have commented to this effect.
Current policy has failed.
Proposal would fix this.