Template talk:Virtues

Please be inclusive and ecumenical

@Trakking — I appreciate your attention to improving the formatting of this list, but I'm concerned that you seem to be purging items (e.g. Civility, Clemency, Curiosity, Determination, Grit... etc.) based on some particular definition of what a virtue is rather than on a more inclusive and ecumenical point of view that encompasses a variety of virtue systems. Moorlock (talk) 16:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello. I provided many explanations for my removals.

Civility is defined as "formal politeness and courtesy in behaviour or speech"—and the list already includes adequate entries to politeness and courtesy. Also—the article for civility is quite obscure with only two articles in other languages etc.

Clemency was linked to the irrelevant judicial term "pardon." Mercy, which is already included, is an excellent synonym for clemency, just like courage is a more adequate term than grit.

Another problem concerned neutral terms. Traits like creativity, curiosity, ambition may be attributed to many criminals and psychopaths, whereas true virtues like Honour, Duty, Sportsmanship, Wisdom are reserved for virtuous people. Virtue is defined as "behaviour showing high moral standards."

The list is extensive enough as it is now. It just needed a cleanup, removing irrelevant terms and following the principle of putting quality over quantity. Trakking (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Your particular definition of virtue as "behaviour showing high moral standards" is the problem here. There are other definitions of virtue, such as the classical Greek idea of a virtue as "a characteristic habit tending to the human flourishing of the person exhibiting it." This list should respect that definition as well. —Moorlock (talk) 18:07, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

All authoritative definitions and interpretations of virtue, from the Greeks through the Middle Ages to modern time, contain a moral and social dimension. What you talk about is closer to concepts like Bildung and self-actualization. Trakking (talk) 18:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Aristotle is about as authoritative as an author can be on the subject of virtues, and he doesn't agree. Some of the virtues he elaborated on, like wittiness, ambition, magnanimity, or magnificence, wouldn't make a cut based on having-a-moral-dimension or showing-high-moral-standards. That's one reason why I think your standard of what counts as a virtue is too strict or too bound to one particular tradition and should not be the standard by which this list is crafted. —Moorlock (talk) 23:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

If you have not noticed, wit, magnanimity, and magnificence are still included in the template—and for good reasons. There’s normally a social and moral dimension to these traits, like being witty/humorous in a conversation or showing magnificence by hosting an expensive event.

Ambition, however, not so much. The introduction to the article of ambition explicitly states: ”It has been categorized both as a virtue and as a vice.” Aristotle believed in moderated ambition: industriousness, which is one of the aspects of Conscientiousness along with orderliness. That term is already covered in the template. Trakking (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2023 (UTC)