Template talk:Time Team

This navbox and WP:PERFNAV

Per WP:PERFNAV, this navbox should NOT include presenters or other crew members from the programmes, as the guideline states "Avoid adding [...] crew members into navboxes for the productions they worked on." However any attempts to bring this navbox in line with the guidelines are being reverted. --woodensuperman 12:38, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for opening a discussion. Reiterating what I've said elsewhere: WP:PERFNAV is not an absolute rule and it says "avoid" rather than "do not". It also says it applies to "entertainers", which most of these people are not, and that the purpose of the advice is "over-proliferation of navigation templates at the bottom of performers' articles, and avoids putting WP:UNDUE weight on certain performances of an entertainer over others". Again, the vast majority of these people are not "performers". For the most part they are scholars, for whom Time Team was their only major television appearance and a noteworthy event in their careers. Including this template on those pages is therefore WP:DUE and very unlikely to contribute to an "over-proliferation of navigation templates".

It makes more sense to exclude the template from articles like Tony Robinson, who is an entertainer/performer, but it would be a rather glaring oversight not to link to that article in this template. – Joe (talk) 12:51, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

You seem to be sticking on the words "performer" and "entertainer" and ignoring that it says "crew members", which these are. You need to consider the spirit of the guideline, and not get caught up with the wording. See this discussion which examines a very similar issue. Note that even creators of TV series don't get included in the navboxes for the series (although TV series would be allowed in the individuals' navboxes). --woodensuperman 12:58, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Regardless of the exact wording, it is quite clear that these guidelines were formulated to avoid the proliferation of templates and categories at the bottom of articles about people who can be expected to appear in many creative works. Archaeologists do not fall into that category. I do not see any similarity at all between scientists whose work is documented on television and crew members or news anchors.

Let's approach this from another direction. Aside from conforming to a guideline, why do you think removing these people from this template improves the encyclopaedia? – Joe (talk) 13:20, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Consider Tony Robinson. Why should he have a navbox for this programme on the bottom of his article, and not one for Blackadder, or any other programme or work that he was a major part of? The same logic is applicable for the academics, who may have had a significant academic career, but then a navbox for a popular TV series is slapped on the bottom of their page giving WP:UNDUE weight to something that may be an insignificant part of their career. --woodensuperman 13:24, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Tony Robinson's career is very different to that of an academic or field archaeologist, as is the nature of our encyclopaedic coverage, so I don't think the same logic applies at all. I believe the sources indicate that Time Team was a significant part of the career of all the people listed here. In fact few of them would be notable had they not appeared on the program. Do you have any examples of where you think it's WP:UNDUE? – Joe (talk) 13:35, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Mick Aston had a significant career a long time before Time Team. --woodensuperman 13:38, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

No doubt, but reliable sources also describe Time Team as his "life's work" and multiple obituaries described him primarily as a "Time Team expert" or similar [1][2][3][4][5]. It would be bizarre not to associate him with others for whom an involvement with the series was a defining aspect of their career, e.g. Phil Harding (archaeologist), Robin Bush and Helen Geake. – Joe (talk) 13:48, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

This is just one navbox out of many similar navboxes and you need to look at the broader picture. There's no valid reason for an exception here, there's a real danger it would open the floodgates for other "exceptions". Don't forget, if a person really is all that interconnected with a show, then they will already be adequately linked in the articles. --woodensuperman 14:02, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

I think you need to look at the narrower picture myself. I've no desire to open any floodgates and I don't care about the cat/navbox guidelines at all, I just don't see how applying this particular "rule" to this particular case improves the encyclopaedia. Fortunately, all our guidelines already come with a built-in exception. – Joe (talk) 14:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

• This discussion has just been cited, (and/or moved?) to this new proposal. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:27, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Since the goal of PERFNAV is to avoid "over-proliferation of navigation templates at the bottom of performers' articles" and that's not the case with these presenters, there is no problem with including them here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:42, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

It's also to avoid putting WP:UNDUE weight on a certain aspect of someone's career over another, which is problematic when we slap this navbox on articles like Mick Aston. It's also problematic because someone has made a subjective choice as to which archaeologists to include, which puts WP:UNDUE weight on the contributions of these individuals over the contributions of others. --woodensuperman 15:39, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

• Restore to the last stable version (Seasons/Series change included though) and stop all this forumshopping in the hope that you can get something to stick! Andy Dingley (talk) 15:47, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

It's hard to claim there was a stable version. The initial creation was a poorly thought out mess, and has always been need of of a good tidying up in line with our guidelines and conventions. Also note that requesting input from a wikiproject is not "forumshopping". --woodensuperman 15:52, 1 October 2018 (UTC)