Template talk:So You Think You Can Dance (American TV series)

Choreographers Section

Recent removals and subjective criteria

Someone has gone through and removed a bunch of choreographers and placed the following comment:

• This list should only include long-choreographing choreographers or choreographers that has choreographed great routines that got an emmy/favorite routine etc.
  

That criteria is way to subjective. Everyone has a different idea of what "great" is. If we all want to pick a minimum number of routines before someone can appear on the list, that's fine, but then it has to be backed up by episode info. I already suggested that instead of listing every choreographer here, maybe we should only list those that have also guest judged, and point to this category for the rest:

• So_You_Think_You_Can_Dance_choreographers

The show is going on 7 seasons, so it doesn't seem fair to make the choreographer list be a place for a bunch of editors to argue about their popularity or record recent memories. I see Travis on there instead of other choreographers that had done work for the first 3 seasons, as an example.
Porfirio Landeros (talk) 05:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Criteria suggestions

I think we need to come up with criteria for the choreographers section. As I've mentioned before, there are people not on the list that have choreographed multiple times, and there are people being added that have choreographed only once. There is already a wiki category that catches choreographer bios for this show here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:So_You_Think_You_Can_Dance_choreographers

• Do we only post choreographers that have been on more than once?
• Do we only post ones that have judged, too?
• Do we only post ones that have been on more than one season?

Any ideas?

Porfirio Landeros (talk) 15:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I think more than once qualifies to be included in the template. Some choreographers were just guest choreographers (for example, Cat noted that Sonya was guest choreographing this week) and shouldn't be included in the template. Also, I wonder if the official site has a section for choreographers... That way, at least as far as this season is concerned, we could go by the site. MissMJ (talk) 05:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they have to be there for more than one season in order to be listed. After all the top 4 from every season are only there one season but I do like the choreographed more than once rule. I think choreographed more than twice would be better just because I feel it would establish that the choreographer is consistent and/or notable enough to be on "faculty" as opposed to being a guest. Guest choreographers aren't necessary faculty. Who is Youri Nelzine and Todd Sams? Everyone else sounds familiar but I haven't heard of them at all? This is why I like choreographed more than twice better. I don't recall them doing one routine but if they did at least three, I think I would remember. 24.93.205.160 (talk) 18:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm removing Sean Cheeseman from this template. He only choreographed once for the U.S. version so at this point he's a guest as opposed to a resident. In addition, his article is tagged as being a copyvio of some other website which means it will probably be deleted soon. // Gbern3 (talk) 18:15, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Amanda Robson

I just removed Amanda Robson from the "choreographers" section. She does create concepts for choreography with her husband Wade. However, she does not choreograph. Cat specifically changes her language on the show by stating Wade's dance pieces are "conceived by Wade and Amanda Robson" rather than choreographed like she does with everyone else. Also, Amanda is not present during the rehearsal footage and she's never been shown actually teaching choreography to any of the dancers. I don't even think she's a dancer herself. // Gbern3 (talk) 16:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

We'd have to rewatch previous seasons, because on numerous group routines in seasons past, Amanda is listed here on Wiki as a choreographer w/ Wade. So, until others weigh in, I'd like to leave her on there temporarily. Sound good?--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 17:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. "Numerous" is an exaggeration. She is listed once in season 5 with her husband Wade. She is also listed once in season 6 but I removed her because she didn't choreograph the group routine. Wade did. Cat states exactly "We're about to kick things off with a suitably spectacular group routine conceived by Wade and Amanda Robson, choreographed by Wade Robson." Check out the video of this episode at YouTube. She says it around minute 3:05. I don't think she should be listed because she's not a choreographer. If she is in fact a choreographer I still don't think she should be listed because she only has the one routine from season 5 to her name so she wouldn't "qualify" based on the rules stated above.

I'm going to remove her from this template but if you must add her back, at least list her with her husband (please) i.e. "Wade and Amanda Robson" rather than listing her separately. Jean-Marc and France are listed together as well as Nappytabs. I don't think Amanda should be treated any differently, particularly since she isn't notable in the dance world apart from her husband. // Gbern3 (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with listing them together. The only fault you made was a failure to consider previous seasons. That's where "numerous" begins to make sense; she co-choreographed several routines with Wade. She only ever contributes to group routines though. So I reiterate my question below: Do group-only people like Amanda & Chuck Maldonado (Nigel's co-) qualify? I might actually side with no, to decrease the amount.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 19:45, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Season 5 is a previous season. She's not listed in 4, 3, 2, or 1. I'm not feeling "co-conceived" for the top 20 group routine just because no other choreographer (or duo) is listed in this manner. Not even in the STYTCD articles from other countries and not even in Wade's own article. Also if that routine wins an Emmy, I don't think they would put Amanda's name on the award just because she helped conceive it. As far as group-only people, I think the "more than once" rule should be kept regardless of whether they choreograph for just groups or both groups and couples.

This is something we're just going to have to respectfully disagree on. We've already established that she didn't choreograph the top 20 group routine, she's only listed once in season 5 rather than "numerous" times in past seasons, and in this video even Wade says she's not a dancer (minute 1:55), or a choreographer but instead a writer and creative partner (minute 4:20) that goes with him everywhere (minute 6:50). I'm trying to see your POV but since she's not a dancer or choreographer, I don't see the purpose in having her on this template. // Gbern3 (talk) 17:12, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, the fact that she was credited as having had a hand in the creative process is reason enough to list her on the article's page. I must be losing it, because I thought I saw her name thrice in group choreography. Hmm. Well, whatever the case, I suppose her or Chuck (who may only have assisted Nigel, I don't know) are not worthy of being listed in the template?--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 17:26, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Can this be considered sorted as regards to third opinion, it looks that way? Off2riorob (talk) 18:14, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Debbie Allen?

She isn't listed with the Choreographers/Guest Judges section, even though she has been included in the show since at least Season 3. I will add her name, and a comment regarding her relationship to the performer Will Wingfield (a Contemporary dancer who trained under Debbie Allen at the Debbie Allen Dance Academy) and how Nigel stated that this removes her from eligibility as an impartial judge, as long as Wingfield is a contenstant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Suitmonster (talk • contribs) 17:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

She hasn't choreographed for the show (yet)

Hmmm, Ms. Allen has never been a guest choreographer for this show to my recollection... she's been a guest judge, but the section right now is entitled "Choreographers". I would vote to remove her from choreographers until she supplies choreography for the show. There are in fact a few other choreographers missing from this list that HAVE given choreography, but only made a couple or less appearances. Ms. Allen has only appeared a couple of times since last season (Season 3) and once this season (Season 4). The other information you've provided is definitely article-worthy, but I don't believe template-worthy. Porfirio Landeros (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, she's has only appeared on the show as a guest judge, not as a choreographer. Noting that she is ineligible to judge Season 4 unless/until William is eliminated should be done in the Season 4 article. MissMJ (talk) 21:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Runners Up issue

I have a problem with the Runners Up portion of this template. Season 2 never said that Travis was the Runner Up... they just had him stand next to the Winner when the winner was revealed. Unless this can be cited somewhere officially, I think the Runners Up field should be removed. Porfirio Landeros

On the So You Think You Can Dance (US) article it states that he's the runner up. I just followed that information, although I can't remember if they ever explicitly said he was the runner up... Did they ever officially name a runner up in Season 1? I guess we could see if they name anyone runner up this season to figure if the field is warranted? MissMJ 00:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Keep this template for U.S.

I suggest renaming/keeping this template US only, because if every country adds their choreograhers, winners, and judges, this template is going to explode. Porfirio Landeros (talk) 09:03, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Choreographing Duos.

Since Tabitha & Napoleon both have a shared page and choreography together, should we do the same for any others like Pasha & Anya? How about Tony & Melanie, whom I believe always choreograph as a team, if not then the majority of the time.

I'm most unsure regarding Jéan-Marc and France. She's taken on more prominence in recent years and actually speaks in the video diaries these past few seasons. She's never judged with JM to my knowledge; I'm not sure whether she is considered "just a dance partner" or not. But she seems notable to me, since she is actually in the video diaries, being his partner and wife, so I think it's a situation just like that of Tony & Melanie.

So, I'm wondering who's worthy of being listed together and who should be kept separate? Tabitha & Napoleon are definitely together, unless consensus says everyone should be separate. Because I'm not positive about France, I'd say putting her together with JM would be satisfactory. As for Melanie/Tony and Anya/Pasha, I feel that all co-choreographers should be together, but I could go either way.

I'm interested in everyone's opinions.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 16:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

I think they all should be listed together. They choreograph together and they're credited together so listing them together seems natural and pratical. Cicely and Olisa are another pair. I also think it would be less crowded if done this way but that's more of an opinion of aesthetics. // Gbern3 (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

As for Amanda Robson, she IS listed as a choreographer on several occasions. However, those occasions are only group routines, with possibly an exception I'm forgetting. Similarly, Chuck Maldonado is only mentioned as a choreographer in group routines as well--I believe the only times were when he co-choreographed routines with Nigel himself. But should they be added anyway, per notability factor? I'm doing it for now, until more weigh in on the matter.

Full response about Amanda above. If Amanda is listed I definitely feel that Chuck should be listed. Chuck only choreographed something like 1.5 routines: he choreographed the stepping section in that season 4 guys' routine with Nigel and he choreographed the season 4 top 8 group routine. Barely qualifies. Aside from the whole Amanda thing, I wouldn't add him but if the choreographed-something-more-than-once rule is law then technically I suppose he should be there. // Gbern3 (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm leaving off Desmond Richardson and Dwight Rhoden, who choreographed a pas de deux Season 4 and guest choreoed last season--but the guest appearance doesn't seem to qualify as a second job. But if they do a routine this season, then obviously, we'll add them.

I agree with leaving them off. I wouldn't count the guest appearance as a job because it was a guest performance by Desmond and another member of his complexions contemporary ballet company. He probably choreographed the routine he performed but he didn't choreograph for the show. To be clear, he didn't choreograph a routine to be danced by the participants of show. // Gbern3 (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Oddity: The choreographer template in section 1 above lists a "Travis Payne" as a choreographer. Having not seen the first season and its Wiki page being woefully incomplete, I am curious as to whether he meets the standards. One of us will have to bite the bullet and rewatch it, I suppose.

Is it worth adding Mary (and possibly Nigel and Adam) to the choreographers section, despite already listing her as a judge? I'm pondering over this, since we do list Benji and Travis twice.--Cinemaniac⁸⁶_{Dane_Cook_Hater_Extraordinaire} 17:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Choreographers for the template

The point of templates is to link common articles together, therefore, why include the ones that don't have any wiki pages? IRK!_{Leave me a note or two} 13:08, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

This is true. Templates are primary suppose to link articles; however, what I've noticed with the SYTYCD templates is that they also inform. The Canadian and the Australian templates also have choreographers listed w/o wiki articles. I think these templates inform the general public who works on the show and also gives the choreographers due credit as well. For example, in this US template, Nakul Dev Mahajan and Doriana Sanchez have choreographed a lot for the show (5 routines and 20 routines respectively), so listing them gives due "props". To inform and to give credit; that's why they're listed. Note: there's a rule as to who is listed in the "Choreographers" section of this talk page. // Gbern3 (talk) 17:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There are, on the other hand, reality TV templates, and they don't list all of the contestants (see Template:The Amazing Race contestants, Template:Survivor contestants, etc. Because the primary purpose is to link articles and not give information, I'm removing the ones with no articles. Those can be created or be requested. IRK!_{Leave me a note or two} 01:16, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Netherlands/Belgium

I just removed this country from the "other countries" section because I don't think SYTYCD is in this area (although I don't know that for sure) and it was a red link to an article that didn't exist on the subject. It's not even listed on the disambiguation page. I know there are countries that have SYTYCD but do not have an article like Ukraine for example (listed on Sonya Tayeh's resume) but can anyone verify that there's a SYTYCD franchise in the Netherlands/Belgium? // Gbern3 (talk) 17:44, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is a Netherlands version. HenrikNordin (talk) 17:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

About time to retire this box

I'm considering putting this template up for deletion, for a variety of reasons. First off, all of the content within it is now redundant to that found on other pages, especially the main U.S. article. That article, the season articles, and the international franchise index are all now well fleshed-out and interconnected, meaning the content found here is really never more than a single click or two away from any SYTYCD page (and in the case of the main U.S. page there isn't a single piece of information in this template that isn't already covered in a more thorough and organized fashion there). Second, the template is often woefully out of date; when I recently updated it. certain sections were years out of date and, worse, certain sections cannot be updated without ballooning the template's size beyond a reasonable length. This is even more silly when you consider that over 50 of the links in the template actually point to just eight pages (the individual season articles).

But most importantly, the box is just an unnecessary eyesore on most of the pages it can be found on (and it's been inappropriately added to the pages of anyone or anything associated with the franchise); an individual season's article doesn't need to have the show's entire choreographer pool history shoe-horned in, nor are people visiting Travis Walls' page likely to find the top four finalists for all the seasons of the show to be germane to that article's content. In short, this thing is years past its useful life. I'll leave this message up for a few weeks or months to solicit opinions (not that I expect any here) and then begin to phase it out (replacing it with appropriate links and content where necessary and then ultimately putting it up for deletion altogether). Although I am also toying with the notion of leaving the template in, but stripping it down to a single row, which would include only 11 items - the main U.S. page, the nine season pages and the international franchise page. This could be a good compromise I think as it would make sure all of the content currently found here was still kept easily within reach of those visiting connected articles without needlessly cluttering them all. Snow (talk) 21:41, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

As per the issues discussed in the preceding section, I have a streamlined version of the template that I think may make it more user friendly and appropriate to the pages it is on. To reiterate the issues that needed to be addressed:

To start, much of the content is redundant. If a user is navigating an individual season's page, then he already has access to all of it's relevant information on its choreographers and contestants. If he's not on the right season, each season is wikilinked in the first row of the template, so its easy enough to get there. And in my opinion that's the function this template should serve: easy navigation between the various pages in the SYTYCD project (the U.S. pages in particular) not an an exhaustive list of anyone who has been involved with the show. Aside from the judges, the hosts, and the international versions, all of these links point to the same 10 pages anyway, so why needlessly confuse the user with redundant links and information that is easily accessible anyway, if they're interested in the first place? And cutting some of the fat doesn't just enhance the template's effectiveness for it's intended function (navigation) -- it also improves the look of the template and any page it's been added to. The current versions sits like a brick anywhere its placed, looking cluttered and unhelpful. None of these are criticisms of the past efforts of contributors to this template, consequently. when this template was first created it wasn't nearly as redundant and had much less content to fill it. It's simply that the main pages have evolved to a point where it's become a bit of an awkward misfit but we've kept updating it because, well that's what good Wikipedians do! Until practical and stylistic demands intervene, anyway.

So, those are the issues I had in mind when I created this version: User:Snow_Rise/So_You_Think_You_Can_Dance_(United_States)_-_template_update. It's not really that different really - the only things removed are the choreographers section and the lists for the first through third runners-up. Both types of content can be easily located on the individual season pages or the main page in a fuller and more contextually significant manner. For example, with the choreographers, they are listed in full on the main page -- on the current version of this template, only certain choreographers were mentioned and the guidelines editors were applying for who got included were subjective and arbitrary, leading to an inconsistent approach and arguments that can be seen above over who qualified -- and you can see what variety of choreography they were involved in. Further info can be found for their involvement on the individual season pages, which note each of their individual contributions. Likewise, the entire performance history of each of the runners-up is available in the article for the season in which the were contestants. I've left the winners row in, however, as this seems like relevant information that should be accessible in the table at a glance (the winner of a season is always listed in the lead section for a season-specific article, so this seems consistent and appropriate). Likewise, the "other contestants" section is still present in the streamlined version as well, providing wikilinks to the Top 20 (or however many) list within each season's article. Otherwise the table is mostly the same, other than that I've updated content in some rows, provided additional wikilinks, changed the title to be more specific to the show than the franchise and just generally cleaned it up a bit. Anyway, those are the changes and my reasoning for them. I'll leave this up a few days before affecting a change, though I doubt anyone is going to suddenly be checking here. Once I change the table though, I'm sure I'll be getting all kinds of company. Wikipedia is always quiet until you change something. ;) Snow (talk) 04:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)