Template talk:Infobox river/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Pushpin_map

Either I don't know how to work it, or the pushpin_map needs to reflect pushpins for every coordinate in the article. It is singularly unsatisfying to enter lots of coordinates for sources and mouth and have only one appear. Rhadow (talk) 02:15, 31 December 2018 (UTC)

Rhadow, What happens if you click the globe/map icon shown with the coordinates? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Citing sources

How do I cite a source for the coordinates of the source and discharge of the river? Jc3s5h (talk) 15:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I think the notes= parameter of template:coord is meant for this. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:09, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 7 June 2019

For reasons of typographical correctness, I kindly recommend replacing hyphens falsely used as bullet points in this template (cf. e. g.
"Source
- location
- coordinates")
with dashes (–) or real bullet points (•).--Hildeoc (talk) 17:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC) Hildeoc (talk) 17:15, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done --- Used HYPHEN BULLET (⁃) —hike395 (talk) 02:07, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Bioregion

Can we add a "bioregion" section to the template? Ffrrrrgus (talk) 20:09, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Lua error in Module:Location map

On page Arlanza (river) there is a river infobox that I want to add a map to. I have added:

| image              = Arlanza 01 by-dpc.jpg
| image_size         = 250px
| image_caption      = Source of the Arlanza in Fuente Sanza (Sierra de la Demanda)
| map                = 
| map_size           = 
| map_caption        = 
| pushpin_map        = SpainDueroBasin.png
| pushpin_map_size   = 200
| pushpin_map_caption= Arlanza River in the Duero River Basin

I get this error: Lua error in Module:Location_map at line 502: Unable to find the specified location map definition: "Module:Location map/data/SpainDueroBasin.png" does not exist.

Backtrace:

[C]: in function "error" Module:Location_map:33: in function "getMapParams" Module:Location_map:502: in function "chunk" mw.lua:518: ? [C]: ? [C]: in function "getExpandedArgument" mw.lua:168: ? Module:Infobox:376: in function "preprocessArgs" Module:Infobox:423: in function "chunk" mw.lua:518: ? [C]: ? Fpr155 (talk) 11:43, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Fpr155: Don't use |pushpin_map=, use |map= instead:

| image = Arlanza 01 by-dpc.jpg
| image_size = 250px 
| image_caption = Source of the Arlanza in Fuente Sanza (Sierra de la Demanda) 
| map = SpainDueroBasin.png 
| map_size = 200 
| map_caption = Arlanza River in the Duero River Basin 
| pushpin_map = 
| pushpin_map_size = 
| pushpin_map_caption= 

Does that do what you intend? — hike395 (talk) 15:32, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@Hike395: I want to use the "pushpin_map = SpainDueroBasin.png" in order to have a pin show where the river is on the map. If I use the "map =", there is no pin. Fpr155 (talk) 19:16, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

A river is a long thing. How can you show its location with a pin? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:42, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

|pushpin_map= calls {{location map}}, which requires maps that are carefully calibrated (in order to place the pin precisely). {{location map}} does not work with arbitrary maps.

The easiest way to get a pushpin is to use |map=, but call it with {{superimpose}}. {{Superimpose}} can place a pushpin on an arbitrary background image, but you need to compute the x and y location (measured by pixels) of the pushpin yourself.

And, as Martin points out, a single pushpin for a river is misleading. You could possibly make a new version of SpainDueroBasin.png that highlights the river's path. — hike395 (talk) 19:56, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

@MSGJ: "A river is a long thing. How can you show its location with a pin?" The pin is placed at its mouth, so on an overview map, one can see at a glance where the river ends. I didn't make this up - it is on the infobox river template " The name of a location map to be used with {location map}, with the pin placed at the location specified by the mouth_coordinates parameter, or the value from wikidata if no mouth coordinates are provided. Manually add parameter pushpin_map_relief = 0 to disable the use of a relief location map." I was following the example on the infobox page of the Amazon River.

@Hike395: Thanks, if I have time I will make a new version of SpainDueroBasin.png that highlights the river's path

Use of maplink in Infobox

Hi, I have played around with the use of the {{maplink}} template. See here for the results: Thur_(Rhine) which look pretty good. I wonder whether we should encourage this for templates and try to move more rivers over to interactive maps or what your thoughts are? Best regards --hroest 21:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Hroest. I've actually attempted that, but currently mw:Extension:Kartographer does not support rivers. It is a pending task from Wikimedia's end, with an active phab ticket. Strangely though, I cannot find that discussion. I will post the link here once I find it. The Thur example works, but the data needs to be manually added - Commons:Data:Thur.map in this instance, whereas OSM already has this data readily available. Thus it is more practical to get that feature request sorted, instead of manually importing such data for each river (which would also eventually end up being outdated). Rehman 02:13, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Okay, so as far as I understand, the idea would be to eventually link directly to an OSM identifier instead of a file on Wikimedia Commons, and grab the path data on the fly? I see how that solves some issues, however there is of course a concern that OSM currently does not offer stable identifiers; consequently and paths, nodes and even relations may be deleted. The advantage of importing the file to Commons is of course that this will provide a stable link and identifier and the data is safely stored -- on the other hand there is little risk for OSM relation ids to change (nodes and paths change frequently and get deleted frequently). Also I see the downside of maintaining the data in two places. I would be very interested to see the discussion of this topic. Btw the Thur_(Rhine) was a trial run of mine (I imported the data from OSM). --hroest 18:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Maybe this could be a task for a bot to import these .map files into Commons? --hroest 18:36, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I think I found the limitation here: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Kartographer/OSM#Limitation "Currently, only relations with type=multipolygon, type=route, and type=boundary will display on maps" so roads work because they are "type=route" and what we need is "type=waterway"

Hyphen to ndash

Please change hyphen to ndash (or bullet) for discharge1_avg and similar second-level notations in the first column of infobox. Spaced hyphen is not used and is ugly. --Obsuser (talk) 22:40, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

I second this. Any template editors around who can comment on where this comes from or how to fix it? Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Obsuser and Dicklyon. Changed those to bullets. Thank you, Rehman 06:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

documentation of source vs. source confluence

If I understand correctly, a source confluence *is* the source of a river; that is, when two rivers join and the resulting river is given a different name because of history or cultural factors, the confluence is considered the source. If so, then I don't quite understand the need for separate source confluence tags in this template. Can someone elaborate or at least document the template? Many thanks. Graham^talk/mail/e 03:33, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I never used that parameter, but I think it makes sense. Take for instance the Danube, that has two source rivers, Breg and Brigach. The sources of Breg and Brigach (location, coordinates etc.) would go under source1 and source2, and the place where they meet (Donaueschingen, the "source" of the Danube) would go under source_confluence. Markussep ^Talk 06:47, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't think that's quite it. The various source_confluence fields are a result of the merging of this Infobox template with the Geobox template used for rivers, which had the separate confluence fields, and were retained to make the conversion of the river articles using Geobox to the new, merged version of Infobox River work properly. While there's no reason one can't use these fields, they are on purpose not listed in the "Parameter names and descriptions" section of the documentation. Instead, it says there in the description for the source1 field: "For a source that is a confluence, you may add as: Confluence of [[River-A]] and [[River-B]]." In short, whether the source of a river is a lake, glacier, marsh, field, spring, or confluence of one or more other rivers, use the source field. [Aside: Yes, there are a few rivers that use the source fields for the furthest upstream source along with source_confluence fields, but these are a few major rivers like the Amazon or the Danube; there is no need to use source together with source confluence for the vast majority of rivers and streams for which the Infobox River will be implemented.] --papageno (talk) 03:26, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

progression

How is this parameter supposed to be used? The current description "Progression of rivers" is rather unhelpful circularity. And the usage provided in the example is also unclear as to what it is supposed to illustrate. older ≠ wiser 16:54, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

What is meant with “progression” here is the discharge route of the river towards usually an ocean or sea. I’m not sure whether “progression” is the most accepted or helpful term for this though. Maybe “discharge route” or “discharge path” is a better option. Markussep ^Talk 17:14, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Still not sure what that means. When used in article for River A as for example Progression: River B - Watebody C, does that mean River A empties into River B which empties into waterbody C? In other words, sort of an inverted list of tributaries? Is there an example of how this is used correctly? older ≠ wiser 18:04, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at an explanation in the template documentation using the German river Pegnitz (river). Does this help? --papageno (talk) 18:48, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, thank you. older ≠ wiser 18:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

I've also added Category:Drainage basin succession templates to the field description. Marking this  Done. --papageno (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Change in display of Mouth Coordinates in the title

Something just changed on the way the mouth coordinates in the infobox are displayed in the title with display=inline, title. The coordinates appear in the top of the Infobox and not at the top of the page. See Pigeon River (Minnesota–Ontario). Not sure what changed in the Infobox but it appears the same in all articles using Infobox river. The mouth coordinate should be at the top of the article and in the Mouth Coordinates field of the infobox. -- Talk to G Moore 14:17, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Not sure whether anything has been changed, but the Pigeon River article looks OK now, with coordinates in the infobox and in the top right corner of the article. Markussep ^Talk 15:49, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Markussep: I think I found the problem. Using the Vestor skin makes the coordinate overlap with the infobox. Using the Minerva skin makes the coord disappear entirely. Modern, Timeless, and Monobook skins work fine. -- Talk to G Moore 18:21, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

This issue isn't with the infobox rather the WMF messing up old vector when making new vector. Nothing that can be done here but wait for T281974 to be resolved. --Trialpears (talk) 18:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I have also noticed the change in display of coordinates. I don't think it is down to any particular infobox; the problem seems to be site-wide. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:45, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Coordinates in title dropped down — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:47, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Source + mouth label markers

I hate that we don't have the ability to mark sources and estuaries in the Infobox location map (|pushpin_map), as in the templates "Location Map Many" and "Location Map +".--౪ Santa ౪^99° 20:19, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

native name parameters

I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Infoboxes § native name parameters, you participation would be appreciated.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 22:27, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Trappist the monk, Whatever code creates the link to display the language is unable to cope with "haa", which is Hän language, but the template is showing the dab haa. White River (Yukon) is an example. MB 14:01, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Module:Lang creates a link to Han language because 'Han' is the form used by IANA language-subtag-registry for code haa. Han language was created in 2005 as a redirect to Hän language. Since then the redirect was converted to a dab page, and then returned to a redirect page with a variety of targets.

I have added haa Hän to the override table.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Trappist the monk, Roper River is another one due to "rop" for Australian Kriol, linking to Kriol language which redirects to the Kriol dab. MB 18:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 18:52, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

As a result of the above referenced discussion, I have modified this template and fixed many of the attendant errors. Some errors I have not fixed. Articles with native name errors are listed in Category:Native name checker template errors. This search returns a list of articles using {{infobox river}} in Category:Native name checker template errors.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Automatic short description

I think this infobox would be well suited to an automatic short description of the format "River in [country]". If the country can't be automatically be determined another short description is already present no automatic description will be added. I know this template is at times used on channels or estuaries, but since there only seems to be ~62 rivers and ~68 estuaries these could easily get a manual descriptions added before implementation giving those a good description as well. I've also notified WT:RIVERS of this. --Trialpears (talk) 19:03, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Trialpears: Question: Would this override existing short descriptions? In the U.S. and other countries, there are a lot of rivers that have the same name. I would be unhappy to see somebody's past work to create disambiguated short descriptions ("River in northern Minnesota" and "River in southern Minnesota" and "River in Michigan," say) be automatically replaced with something less useful (three instances of "River in the United States"). Thanks-- TimK MSI (talk) 23:51, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

TimK MSI no. Like all other template generated short descriptions any other description on the page takes precedence. A human can almost always make a better description, but generating ~20,000 new quite good descriptions is a lot better than having nothing for years while waiting for editors to manually add them. --Trialpears (talk) 00:19, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm strongly in favour, but I would prefer "River in [Subdivision], [Country]" where possible. Ideally prioritising where the river exists wholly within the smallest possible single geographic subdivision (district, region, state). Probably a little more to time/effort implement, but given the number of pages affected, time worth spending. — HTGS (talk) 00:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

I have implemented an automatic short description based on |subdivision_name2= followed by |subdivision_name1=, after some testing in the sandbox and corrections based on some limitations I found in the initial deployment. Please ping me if you notice any problems or opportunities for enhancements. Articles with mangled short descriptions that seem to be edge cases can be overridden with a manual {{short description}} template in the article. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikidata

Can we in some way import numbers from Wikidata in order to facilitate the maintenance of the article?. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:C23:903A:8800:2FFD:CF69:BD33:7C02 (talk) 16:02, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

native_name title

The use of Native name is offensive to many cultures, can it be remove and replace with first nations name Gnangarra 11:02, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It might be better to use indigenous_name, for generality. According to Indigenous peoples#North America, "Indigenous peoples in Canada comprise the First Nations, Inuit and Métis", so first_nations would exclude Inuit and Métis. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:11, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

thats fine as long the offensive "native" is removed. Gnangarra 12:16, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Some thoughts (as a non-Indigenous Australian editor) ...

Given that:

• {{Infobox river}} displays the native_name in the main part of the box, with the field name displayed as "Native name", whereas other_name displays the name at the top, under the name, with no field name (example diff)
• {{Infobox Australian place}} has native_name (and not other_name) which is displayed at the top with no other text (eg Brisbane (Meanjin), Rottnest Island (Wadjemup)).
• {{Infobox Australian place}} "has been extensively customised for Australia" and states in the instructions that "Native is a deprecated archaic term in the Australian context, but is used in this template for consistency with other templates. Please don't use the term in articles."

Is there some reason why native_name is displayed differently in rivers vs Australian places? Does {{Infobox Australian place}} move it to the top only to avoid the need to display the deprecated/archaic/offensive text "Native name"?

Would it be better if all rivers and other "places" (using Category:Place infobox templates) displayed the native/indigenous name the same way?

Would renaming native_name break anything, in particular other templates?

Mitch Ames (talk) 01:17, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

To avoid the displayed label "Native name", the parameter |name_other= can be used which will display other name(s) unlabelled below |name=. Messing with |name_native= would certainly cause problems in articles like Rhine, Danube, and similar. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:45, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

This parameter gets confused all the time native name has nothing to do with being indigenous. Is the wording/language used by the population in question...Moscow vs Москва..|native_name = Country's name (usually full name) in its official/defacto language(s), hence in italics (double quotemarks).

Москва. Moxy- 02:12, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

This is English Wikipedia and in English "native" is loaded word that carries a lot offense thanks to colonialism of the British. the title saying Natvie name, should at least be transient and capable of being changed to reflect the language code ie de say it German, nys say its nyungar, the actual word native doesnt need to be there. We dont need to offend people just fill in a box what ever happened to WP:NPOV and our key pillar as being neutral? Gnangarra 09:22, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

the title saying Natvie name, should at least be transient and capable of being changed to reflect the language code ie de say it German, nys say its nyungar, the actual word native doesnt need to be there. — I don't think that would work if there is more than one such name (eg Rhine). Perhaps simply displaying "Indigenous" instead of "Native" (keeping the template parameter name for back-compatibility, but also allowing indigenous_name) would be a simpler solution. This has the advantage of keeping the same heading text in all infoboxes, which helps the reader looking for that specific thing. It also means that someone not familiar with the word (for example) "Nyungar" doesn't have to click the link to find out what a "Nyungar name" is. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:28, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok "native" is a linguists term used for " first language" or " mother tongue" called a "L1" name.... it may or may not be indigenous in nature. First language as in "You are a native speaker of that language" that in most cases is not an indigenous one. Indigenous_name is a patamater we could add...changing native_name = to "first language" could be done but we would need a wider talk because anyone educated in linguistics is aware of meaning in this case.Love, Nigel; Ansaldo, Umberto (2010). "The native speaker and the mother tongue". Language Sciences. 32 (6). Elsevier BV: 589–593. doi:10.1016/j.langsci.2010.09.003. ISSN 0388-0001. Moxy- 04:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

According to First language, with my emphasis here: "A first language (L1), native language, ... is the first language or dialect that a person has been exposed to ...". There are variations described in that article, but they are all relative to the speaker. That suggests that L1 is a function of a person, not a country or river, so the concept appears meaningless in the context of an article about a place. If the "native name" is the name in the "native language" then that is the language of the reader of the article (not the writer). Is there a linguist term to define the native language of the indigenous people of a place? Mitch Ames (talk) 05:25, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Autochthonous language Moxy- 08:09, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Autochthonous language redirects to Indigenous language, which supports my original suggestion of "Indigenous name". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:15, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

yup....so new parameter here? Moxy- 08:19, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 August 2023

Please swap rows 3 and 4, so that the sequence is min / av / max. This will then match the width and depth outputs. — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 09:39, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 12:50, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Please revert this change, the parameters were ordered that way for a reason. See the discussion from merger of Geobox river into this template. Shannon [ Talk ] 21:08, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

 Reverted, please be ready to discuss with @GhostInTheMachine — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 21:17, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Shannon [ Talk ] 21:59, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

The archived discussion is lengthy – which bit should I be looking at? — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 17:06, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

@Shannon: ! — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 20:18, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Topographic maps

It would be ideal if this infobox had a parameter for topographic maps as there is for {{Infobox mountain}}. Volcanoguy 04:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't most notable rivers cross more than one 1:25000 topographic map? Would it be a list of topo maps? — hike395 (talk) 14:17, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

It would probably be a big list for major rivers (which I don't recommend) but the same could be said for major mountain ranges (e.g. Rockies, Andes, Alps). There's a lot of articles about small rivers and creeks that would appear on only one to a couple topo maps. Volcanoguy 19:36, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I normally use {{Break}} for listing topo maps in {{Infobox mountain}} as can be seen in Mount Edziza volcanic complex. Volcanoguy 21:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Documentation

The template uses and the Check for unknown parameters call checks for 152 parameters. The template data listed 135 of these and I have imported the 17 extras. However, there are no template data descriptions at all and the Parameter names and descriptions section described just 59 60 62 parameters. I am reluctant to add missing parameters without a suitable description, but will attempt to add ones I do understand. Please review my descriptions and add more — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:08, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Parameter names and descriptions section

• Y source2..5 etc ⇒ 88/152 — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:42, 5 November 2023 (UTC)
• Y discharge2_* .. 5_* ⇒ 104/152 — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 13:15, 5 November 2023 (UTC)