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Entry for college career

A discussion has been initiated in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football#Infobox selection about inclusion of college career as opposed to youth career in the infobox biography. This would clearly clarify notable athletes who spent some time playing in colleges rather than youth clubs or sports schools. An parameter entry would be similar to what is below. Probably 2 to 3 colleges would be a maximum as transfers do occur in the USA. 

{{Infobox football biography
...
| youthyears1         = 
| youthclubs1         = 
| collegeyears1       = 
| collegeclubs1       = 
...
}}

Some of the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football contributors have indicated positively for such an option. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

as long as it doesn't affect every other article I think it's a good idea. Adam4267 (talk) 18:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
It shouldn't affect every other article. I'm for it. But I have one question: In this case, what would be considered "youth career"? High school? Digirami (talk) 23:14, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I would also suggest including partameters for appearances and goals at college level. GiantSnowman 18:37, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree. If we don't include college appearances and goals, why bother having it as a separate section at all? It could easily go under "Youth career" otherwise. – PeeJay 19:43, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I envisioned that appearances and goals would be also needed since this parameter was meant to be closely related to "Youth career". Brudder Andrusha (talk) 20:08, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
We should also make it clear that this is for NCAA, not just any high school a player attended. GiantSnowman 19:52, 12 September 2011

I suppose the test here is Clint Dempsey (youth development with the Dallas Texans, college with the Furman Paladins). Is there anything wrong with how that's currently represented? If not, we've nothing to do here. If so, we need to decide how it should look. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 09:31, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

In the U.S., at least, it is unusual for college play to be referred to as "youth soccer". Powers T 12:33, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure that's the case. However, is the output of Dempsey's infobox okay as it is to a US native? If not, what would you consider the best presentation, given that he has both a notable youth "career" (as we understand it) and a college career? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Maybe I'm being obtuse here, but I was trying to make the point that it looks a little odd for college play to be under a "Youth career" heading. Powers T 15:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
No, that's precisely what was asked. If it looks odd to American editors then we should attempt to mitigate that. The question is how we do that. In Dempsey's case, one would presume that he'd need two headers ("Youth career" for the Dallas Texans, "College career" for the Furman Paladins). Does this sound right to you? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:21, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
If you don't need two headings, you could just overload the youth section to take both "collegefoo" and "youthfoo". If you want an entire new college section, that would require adding a load of code to this template. Frietjes (talk) 15:23, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
But what would you call that section? "Youth and college career"? You can't just call it "college career", because Dempsey's time at the Dallas Texans wasn't as a college player. Furthermore, I'm led to believe that players can be notable primarily for their college careers: do we really want such players to be referred to under a "youth" heading? Just asking questions here. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:30, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
So maybe an extra college career section is the best solution. You are going to have to add more rows to template:infobox3cols :) Frietjes (talk) 15:58, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

We are seeking three headings - 'Youth', 'College' and 'Senior' - for Dempsey that would be the Dallas Texans as youth, Furman Paladins for college, and then Fulham etc. for senior. That, I believe, is accurate and fair. GiantSnowman 16:41, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

My main concern with that approach is that for most players, that will result in a single line under each of the first two headings. Could be a bit much in the header-to-content ratio department. Powers T 17:05, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Not necessarily - look at Kashif Siddiqi, who would have three 'Youth' clubs and two 'College'. GiantSnowman 17:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, yes; I didn't mean to imply that it was a universal. I'm just wondering if having a "Pre-senior career" or "Youth and college career" header might work better. Powers T 18:29, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
How would you define "pre-senior career"? GiantSnowman 18:40, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Anything that comes before the senior career? Powers T 18:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Which we already have - but you're basically just suggesting renaming the existing 'Youth' section? GiantSnowman 19:13, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
That would be an acceptable solution to me, but I didn't start the thread. Powers T 19:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Are players notable for their "college career" when it comes to football?. If that is all they have done they generally fail at AfD as college football is not FP as far as I am aware. --ClubOranjeT 19:59, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
"Pre-senior" would look as odd to a European as "youth" currently looks to an American. Both are intelligible to the respective audiences, because the senior section will always be there. Doing the best I can with the available information, I'd guestimate that the proportion of American and Canadian transclusions is at the lower end of the 5-10% range. I can see some value in a new college header, but if that's considered overkill I'd prefer no change. —WFC— 21:19, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Obviously not all college players are notable, but some do achieve notable honors in college (or "at university" for Canadians); Ashlyn Harris, for instance, was notable before her pro career started. But even for pro players, the college they attended is central to their development as players -- though this is much more true for women than for the men. Powers T 02:11, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Let's get some code on the table. I've added another ten rows to {{infobox3cols}}, updated the sandbox to add a new header, and added an example at template:infobox football biography/testcases#The College Years. Is this what we want? Is it acceptable? Do we want appearances and goals to be recorded at college level? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 07:59, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

As discussed at the start of this thread a parameter for appearances and goals should also be included. The example in the sandbox is getting close to what was being proposed. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
There's a row missing in the right-hand side template, the U-19 line. Powers T 14:37, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Looks good Chris, but two minor things - I would like to see parameters for apps/goals (and totals), and I would like to section to be called 'NCAA career', to distinguish what it is intended for. GiantSnowman 15:03, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Just a query about making this US specific by placing something like "NCAA" in the box. Are there not college/university sports clubs elsewhere in the world? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 17:24, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
Yes, per Category:Student sport by country - but none have the same effect/impact on careers as NCAA does for American footballers. GiantSnowman 17:36, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
The NCAA has a large impact on other sports. However, NFL players (see Reggie Bush) and NBA players (see Michael Jordan) their careers infobox simply refer to those days as "college" - which I think is neutral and quite clear. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 08:06, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
I can see the benefits of having it called 'college', but I can also see the limitations - 'college' in American has a different meaning to 'college' in the UK, and we need to make sure that only the appropriate college career is placed in the relevant section. GiantSnowman 12:19, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
If the Template documentation is clear in defining the "collegeclub" parameter then there will be reason to remove entries which are not used for that purpose. In any case I think we're just about ready to have a vote on this extension in the career part of the infobox and if we get a significant positive quorum then to implement. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 14:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
This isn't a vote. We don't need a straw poll to move forward with this: someone just needs to put the effort into coding it. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 08:35, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Fair enuff! I've entered another entry for college career with appearances and goals in the provided sandbox. It may require some tweeking on the asterisk and on the college years. I'll attend to the documentation when I have a few free cycles. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 15:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
If it were a vote I'd oppose on the basis that the purpose of an infobox is to to summarize key facts about the article in which it appears. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose.... I'd also remove youth career on same basis as to me it is non-notable non-key information.--ClubOranjeT 20:26, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
If you can read Ashlyn Harris and think that her college career is not a "key fact", I don't know what else to tell you. Powers T 12:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
A key fact about Justin Fashanu is his sexual preference. I don't advocate adding that to infoboxes either. I have however read Harris' college career and don't find it particularly remarkable. All very fan-crufty to me. --ClubOranjeT 12:20, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Documentation has been added for the template. In the template example I have not as yet added the college example. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Just in case my previous comment got missed; the U-19 line is missing in the right-hand version of the template. Powers T 13:07, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
good eye. I fixed it here. Frietjes (talk) 21:48, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

If/when these changes are made, do we:

  1. Link to the college in question? e.g. [[Florida Institute of Technology]]
  2. Pipe with the college's sports name? e.g. [[Florida Institute of Technology|Florida Tech Panthers]]
  3. Link to the NCAA article, if applicable? e.g. [[Hartford Hawks]]
  4. Link to the specific soccer programme? e.g. [[UC Santa Barbara Gauchos men's soccer|UC Santa Barbara Gauchos]]

GiantSnowman 19:49, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I think you are going to find all those acceptable. I'd prefer the first but would defintely not start an edit war if others were used. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
I believe the usual standard is to link to the soccer team's article if available, or to the athletic program's article otherwise (or to the university as a last resort); in all cases, the link should appear the same (that is, as "<short college name> <nickname>"). So 4, then 3, then 2. Powers T 12:17, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
In both of the examples that I referred to above (Reggie Bush and Michael Jordan) #4 is used. Brudder Andrusha (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
At the moment at least, that's not quite right; both Jordan and Bush's college team links leave out their colleges' mascots in the rendered link. So the format would actually be only a slight modification of #4, i.e. [[UC Santa Barbara Gauchos men's soccer|UC Santa Barbara]]. This is the way I usually see American athletes's college teams listed in short infographics or tables, and even in conversation (e.g."Where'd Clint Dempsey play college soccer?" "Furman." "Oh."). It's just cleaner, IMHO. Then again, there is the question of United States U-20 men's national soccer team#Players, where it seems to me that college players' entries in the "Club" column SHOULD indicate that it is a college team as opposed to a professional club team, e.g. [[Santa Clara Broncos men's soccer|Santa Clara University]]. Is that a separate issue? Maybe I've spent too much thought on this smallish detail. JustDerek (talk) 22:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Implementation

When is this going to get completed? Brudder Andrusha (talk) 03:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

When there's a clear consensus as to a) whether it is necessary and b) how exactly it should look. There's no particular rush here, given that this work was generated more by a desire to do the right thing in future than by some grave problem with the existing layout. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 11:45, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Nickname, nationality and weight

Hi, can anyone add Nickname and weight to infobox? It's important.
Above infobox is placed name of player. In infobox i can put the full real name. But official nickname(s) havent any entry place. On russian, ukrainian, romanian, and more other wikipedias exist the possibility to put nickname in infobox. Also exist more players with 2-3 nationalities nad in infobox i can't present them. Also it's very important to have weight for players. E.g. in both cases, look for this player Kyrylo Kovalchuk. From this article go to RU and UKR. Thanks --XXN (talk) 13:01, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Why is nickname important enough to be in the infobox, or even mentioned at all? The infobox should be for the most basic key facts about the player, is a nickname really one of those.......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:15, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Some players are known only by nickname. See Garincha, Ronaldinho, Pele, and more brazilians. Infobox football club also have option nickname, even clubs are not called by nickname like players. --XXN (talk) 20:52, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
If a player is known exclusively by a nickname, that name will appear at the top of the infobox (and as the article title). If a player is only infrequently known by a nickname (e.g. Gazza, Becks), then it's not worth putting in the infobox. As for weight and nationality, these are usually quite controversial statistics and should not be included. – PeeJay 13:29, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Plus I don't imagine there would be any reliable sources for players' weight. It's not a stat I can ever recall seeing listed in annuals, etc.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:44, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Soccerway.com --XXN (talk) 15:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Embedding voice files

A project I'm running, and a related event in mid-January will soon add around a thousand recordings of article subjects' voices to their biographies. I'd like to embed those in the relevant infoboxes, as in this example (using {{Infobox person}}). Can we add the necessary |module= parameter to this template? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:24, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

No, please - give them their own little box. Much too crufty and against WP:INFOBOX principles. Of course adding them is an excellent idea, but not in the main box. Johnbod (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes please. Nobody except Johnbod would prefer an ugly separate box to an elegant integration within the infobox. It works well with {{infobox person}}, and it should be just as useful in this template. --RexxS (talk) 20:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Recent changes

I don't know what the recent changes are for, because no comments have been made here. However, the visible effect of the changes is to increase the line height of the club rows in the senior career section to an IMO unacceptable degree. On pages with many such rows, e.g. Steve Claridge, the depth of the template has on my screen gone up by about 20–25%. Perhaps if those making the changes could explain what they're doing, and whether the increased whitespace is a necessary part of those changes or just a mistake that they hadn't noticed, it'd help. There are 100,000+ transclusions of this infobox, so it does matter. @Pigsonthewing: @Davykamanzi: cheers, Struway2 (talk) 22:54, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Adding Goalkeeper-Specific Stats to Infobox

I don't know if this has been suggested before, but I feel that, for goalkeepers, it would be useful to replace the goals-scored statistic in the infobox with something applicable to goalkeepers, such as goals-against average (GAA). To me, it doesn't make sense to show how many goals a goalkeeper has scored because in 99.9999% of cases, the figure will be zero since goalies don't score goals. Is this something that could be looked into? I appreciate any feedback. Thanks! Vanhalen1984 (talk) 19:56, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

This has been suggested before, and I believe that the answer has always been that, since external sources don't tend to do this, neither should we. – PeeJay 20:55, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
OK. Fair enough! Thanks for the reply, PeeJay! Vanhalen1984 (talk) 15:54, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Should fullname wrap?

Sorry if this has been asked before, but I can't find anything. Was wondering whether the contents of |fullname= could or should wrap automatically to the width of the infobox, to avoid having to insert line breaks? I noticed an editor recently adding a line break at Jean Beausejour to cut down the width of the infobox, and then checked out the obvious extreme example, Charlie Oatway, which has two line breaks in the full name. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

That would be a good idea. Those two names are probably on the extreme end of how long a name can be, but to avoid having to manually insert line breaks, it would make sense to make them wrap automatically. – PeeJay 11:11, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Definitely. Manual line breaks should never be used like that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:40, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Upright

I've noticed that the thumbnail and frameless images no longer honour the thumbnail parameter as defined in a user's preferences. I also noticed that a few other templates have had to add an |upright=1 value to the infobox (infobox album is an example). Was there a style change that has affected this? Can we fix the sudden reduction of size? Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

yes, there was a change, see discussion at WP:VPT. Frietjes (talk) 15:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Embedding to {{Infobox person}}

I think the template should be able to be embedded to {{Infobox person}} for the sake of footballers who've gone on to prominence in other careers, for example Pelé, Michel Platini or Andriy Shevchenko. I've actually managed to do that, but it'll also need changes to the {{Infobox3cols}} and {{Infobox person}} templates. See my testcase here. Davykamanzi → talk • contribs • alter ego 08:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

This is related to both threads at Template talk:Infobox3cols. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:03, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree that this should be made possible. I've disabled the edit-request template, though, as it should only be used when there is code to apply, in a sandbox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Embed changes

Davykamanzi (talk · contribs) has been making changes to {{Infobox football biography}}, I have reverted and ask that they actually explain how these changes will impact our articles, please join in the discussion at Template talk:Infobox3cols#Big problem. GiantSnowman 18:43, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

that discussion appears to have limited involvement, and as died? are there still any objects to adding code similar to this version to allow for embedding? Frietjes (talk) 15:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

"Current club"/"Current team"

Could someone please change the parameter "label10" to "Current team" instead of "Current club"? In articles about current national team managers/coaches, the word "club" is inappropriate there, so we should change it to a word that applies to both clubs and teams. – PeeJay 12:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Given recent controversy over changes to this infobox (see previous two sections and the pages that they link to), Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:51, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
This is a change of a single word that has absolutely no effect on the way this template works and actually improves the template in terms of its fitness for purpose. I suggest you reconsider. – PeeJay 17:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
I'll support this edit. In no circumstances does a footballer or manager perform for a group that isn't a team. As Peejay says, the more specific word "club" does not function for managers of national teams. This change loses none of the meaning, as the output of the field itself defines whether that team is a club or country (the only two types of team in football). SFB 17:11, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Done I mis-marked it as done, reverted that change, came back read the request, and now it really is done. Happy editing!!! — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 18:36, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

(Goals)

Why are the goals shown within brackets in the template. Couldn't the brackets just be removed to show a column for appearances and a column for goals? - 97rob (talk) 23:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Honours

Is there any reason the honours section is hidden? Hack (talk) 08:17, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Is there any reason it exists at all? Players who have won honours usually have a section lower down the page for just that purpose; why do we need it in the infobox as well? Furthermore, which honours are we even supposed to list here? Just international honours? Or are we including club honours too? What about individual honours? Where do we draw the line? How do we decide where that line is? I say we just delete the whole section from the infobox and have done with it. – PeeJay 11:02, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Wrapping fullname parameter

Some months ago, I suggested the |fullname= should wrap automatically to the width of the infobox, because editors were using manual linebreaks to stop long names forcing the infobox to an excessive width. The two people who replied agreed with the suggestion, but I forgot about it and it got archived HERE before the request was formalised. So I'm doing that now. Thanks, Struway2 (talk) 14:26, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

From what I can see of Charlie Oatway, {{Infobox football biography}} and {{Infobox3cols}}, the styling of the |fullname= parameter is controlled by 
| datastyle       = white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: baseline
Wrapping will be enabled if that white-space: nowrap; is removed; but that would affect every one- and two-column row of the infobox, not just the "Full name" row. It wouldn't affect the four-column rows, nor the image row. Therefore, Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. --Redrose64 (talk) 15:11, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Now that Redrose64 has made the required change to the sandbox (I was getting there, slowly, but they very kindly got there first :-) and I've added an example at Template:Infobox football biography/testcases#Wrapping full name, and encouraged people HERE to look at it in their various browsers, can we have it now please, or is there anything more needs doing first? Thanks, Struway2 (talk) 08:26, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Done I also removed the extra markup from Charlie Oatway and Jean Beausejour. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:04, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you Redrose64. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:33, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Club information section

Yesterday I changed "Current team" to "Current club" on the basis that teams and clubs are different, and that club was the more appropriate use (Manchester United is a club, not a team). PeeJay2K3 quite rightly pointed out to me that this parameter is used for international managers, so should remain as "Current team". However, I then noticed that the entire section that this falls under is titled "Club information", so the infobox is inaccurate in all cases at the moment (players like Luke Hyam have "current team" instead of "current club" and international managers like Roy Hodgson have their jobs under "Club information").

I propose adding an "international=yes" parameter that switches "Club" to "team" in both cases when it's used (on international manager articles). I've trialled this in the sandbox, with the results in the testcases page (note that the current version still uses "Current team" instead of "Current club", but I would also change that when making the edit). If people are happy with it, I'll implement it and update the 200 or so national manager articles. Cheers Number 57 16:23, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

This makes sense, but don't forget about all the other people associated with national teams (i.e. under-21s managers, assistant coaches, etc.) when you make those changes. I have to wonder, however, whether there's a simpler solution than adding the switch. Perhaps a fundamental reorganisation of the sections? – PeeJay 09:06, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Weight

Should the weight of a player be included on this template? This is information most clubs provide in player profiles. AndrewK760 (talk) 18:33, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

No, definitely not - one there are no RS which adequately cover it, secondly it is variable (unlike height), and thirdly is it trivial (unlike height, which is constantly discussed in media). GiantSnowman 18:50, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
(ec) I'd say no. Firstly I can't see how it's really relevant (unless they're 15 stone or something). Plus, unlike height, it's something that varies even over short periods of time, so could never be deemed reliable for long. Number 57 18:51, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
  • I'd think it would be included as an appropriately placed, undocumented parameter in the template. It would be something that shouldn't "normally" be used except in rare cases where you have someone who's weight is a heavily reported aspect of them in regards to their position because it is way out from the "normal" weight range for that position. — {{U|Technical 13}} (e • t • c) 19:00, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
    • The problem with including it at all, let alone as an undocumented parameter, is that people will notice it exists for one player and think that it should be included for all, which will lead to the inevitable arguments about which sources and units to use. And for a player whose weight (apparently) fluctuates over time, such as Ronaldo or Anderson, which weight do we report? The one they were at at the peak of their career or the one for which their weight finally became notable? We might report a player's weight when he gets really fat, but what happens when he slims down again? Do we remove the weight we reported or continue reporting him as a fatty? But as I've told numerous editors in the past, fear of misuse of a parameter isn't a reason to include it in a template; therefore, I say the main reason we shouldn't include it is that it's simply not a relevant stat for most players; some clubs record it, some leagues do, but not all, and that indicates to me that weight isn't particularly important in football. If it were that important to an individual, it could be written about in the prose for that individual, I just don't think it should go in the infobox. – PeeJay 22:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Goals and Goalies again

Can the template have an option to hide the goals columns for goalkeepers, like "hide_goals = yes"? The goalies who do manage to score goals or change positions over their career to/from goalie can retain the stat, but those who are dedicated goalies can use that option. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't see the point. Sure, only a few goalkeepers ever score a goal, but how much space would this save? Who does this change benefit? No one, by the looks of it. – PeeJay 07:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Also don't see the point – why is this needed? Number 57 08:58, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
Thirded - what's the point? GiantSnowman 11:41, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

ENGVAR switch?

Shouldn't there be an ENGVAR switch somewhere so that "honours" doesn't appear where it is inappropriate for the ENGVAR of a player's biography? oknazevad (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Yep. Well spotted. SLBedit (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
you can use |medaltemplates-title= to change it. Frietjes (talk) 15:30, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Okay but it's undocumented. SLBedit (talk) 01:22, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Team colors

Like in most other sports templates (i.e. the baseball and basketball bio templates), why doesn't the footballer template have a function for team names in color? It looks good and it makes it even easier for readers to find the basic information of a player's current team. While I know that there are thousands of clubs with pages on Wikipedia, it's ok if only the major world leagues and any major clubs in less important leagues. As to the problem of teams being demoted, I think it would be fine to keep the colors of those teams in the template.

The picture in my head would have the top bar above the picture with the name in white or black, depending on the colors of the bars. The lower bar, below the picture and caption, would have the name of the team and the number. This is just like the other templates.

Let me know what you think. If there is a real reason for there being no team colors, then I would like to here it.

If it's clearly pointless to everyone else, then I won't push it. It's only an idea, after all.

Jerome501 (talk) 21:56, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

College career header

The American professional leagues North American Soccer League and United Soccer League now have a status for players which allows them to play for the clubs in the professional leagues and then go on to represent a college team at a later date but still be eligible for a scholarship. I believe it is time to implement a separate College career section in the football biography template. I've updated the template at template:Infobox football biography/college which is ready to be copied over.

Demonstration:

Before:

Joe-Max Moore
Personal information
Full name Joe-Max Moore
Date of birth (1971-02-23) February 23, 1971 (age 53)
Place of birth Tulsa, Oklahoma, United States
Height 5 ft 9 in (1.75 m)
Position(s) Forward
Youth career
1989–1992 UCLA
Senior career*
Years Team Apps (Gls)
1994–1995 1. FC Saarbrücken 25 (13)
1995–1996 1. FC Nürnberg 27 (8)
1996–1999 New England Revolution 90 (49)
1997 → Club Sport Emelec (loan)
1999–2002 Everton 52 (8)
2003–2004 New England Revolution 19 (4)
Total 213 (82)
International career
1992–2002 United States 100 (24)
*Club domestic league appearances and goals

After: {{Infobox football biography/college | name= Joe-Max Moore | fullname = Joe-Max Moore | birth_date = {{birth date and age|1971|2|23}} | birth_place = [[Tulsa, Oklahoma]], [[United States]] | height = {{height|ft=5|in=9}} | position = [[Forward (association football)|Forward]] | youthyears1 = 1980-87 | youthclubs1 = Made-up youth academy | collegeyears1 = 1989–1992 | college1 = [[UCLA Bruins|UCLA]] | years1 = 1994–1995 | clubs1 = [[1. FC Saarbrücken]] | caps1 = 25 | goals1 = 13 | years2 = 1995–1996 | clubs2 = [[1. FC Nürnberg]] | caps2 = 27 | goals2 = 8 | years3 = 1996–1999 | clubs3 = [[New England Revolution]] | caps3 = 90 | goals3 = 49 | years4 = 1997 | clubs4 = → [[Club Sport Emelec]] (loan) | caps4 = | goals4 = | years5 = 1999–2002 | clubs5 = [[Everton F.C.|Everton]] | caps5 = 52 | goals5 = 8 | years6 = 2003–2004 | clubs6 = [[New England Revolution]] | caps6 = 19 | goals6 = 4 | totalcaps = 213 | totalgoals = 82 | nationalyears1 = 1992–2002 | nationalteam1 = [[United States men's national soccer team|United States]] | nationalcaps1 = 100 | nationalgoals1 = 24 }}

TheBigJagielka (talk) 23:39, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

@TheBigJagielka: I suggest you post at WT:FOOTY and ask people to come to this discussion. FWIW I am in favour of a 'college career' parameter. But we need agreement on the wording ('Varsity Team' could be confusing) and the display (do we link to, and pipe to, the University or the sports team e.g. [[University of California, Los Angeles|UCLA]] or [[UCLA Bruins]] or [[UCLA Bruins|UCLA]])? GiantSnowman 12:28, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
@TheBigJagielka: I also agree with this addition, but I'm more inclined to "Team" instead of "Varsity Team" in the box, or simply nothing, just like the youth career. GiantSnowman: I'd link the sports team of the university at first, and if the wikilink for the sports team doesn't exist, we may link the university by itself. MYS77 ✉ 17:54, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support College football (college soccer) seems to be inbetween youth football and professional football. I also agree with @MYS77: that "Team" looks better than "Varsity Team". Joseph2302 (talk) 18:04, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Support and also agree with just changing it to "team". However, can we change the senior career to "club" – those listed in the example are not teams, they are clubs. Number 57 18:43, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
  • I would say that "Team" in the main section shouldn't be changed to "Club" without its own discussion, and doing so here would be beyond the scope of this discussion. C679 20:00, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 11 March 2016

Copy over changes from template:Infobox_football_biography/college to template:Infobox_football_biography as per the above discussion. TheBigJagielka (talk) 10:09, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

plus Added — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 March 2016

Bertie Brayley has just made his first appearances for his 40th club. Template only allows for 39 and thus is not displaying the info for the 40th club. Please expand to allow for >39 clubs. Thanks.--Egghead06 (talk) 08:01, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

added Frietjes (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Landscape parameter

Several biography templates use a landscape parameter for images to correctly size thumbnails of that are wider than tall. Could this please be added to this template? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:33, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Signature as a parameter to be added to the infobox

Due to the fact that a pictue is seen as a key feature of the infobox, I would favor the idea to add also an optional parameter for the signature as we have it in the biography infoboxes (cf. Jane Russell, Angela Merkel and many more). I put the one of Jürgen Klopp in his infobox but sadly, it was removed the next day. Therefore, I would like to trigger a discussion on that proposal. Some arguments would be nice though, not only statements like "We (don't) need it". Cheers --GeoTrinity (talk) 18:47, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Appearances and Goals abbreviations

Rather than writing "Apps†" and "(Gls)†" with that dagger footnote at the end of the infobox, we should use the {{abbr}} template such that it displays "Apps" and "(Gls)". --bender235 (talk) 14:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea to me. Number 57 18:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
Agreed, though I would suggest Apps and Gls or similar. GiantSnowman 19:47, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
I've implemented this. Number 57 22:34, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
For the record, tooltips don't work on iOS devices (and possibly others). – PeeJay 22:58, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Beach soccer and futsal ignored

Why is this template only about association football? What about futsal and beach soccer, they don't really differ. The Russian version has beach soccer and futsal included into this template. Look for example at this example; the infobox is separated into beach soccer, futsal and association football sections. --User:Tomcat7 (talk) 14:22, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Because players of those sports aren't really notable. GiantSnowman 15:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
What does that mean, not notable? There were people playing for different sports, why only this kind of sport? Perhaps this template should be renamed to Infobox association football biography? Furthermore there is amateur association football, why do you think that association football should be massive sport.--User:Tomcat7 (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
Playing futsal or beach soccer does not make you notable. See WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 19:06, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

nationalteam-update

I suggest we rename 'nationalteam-update' to just 'national-update' to a) match 'club-update' and b) save on space. Thoughts? GiantSnowman 19:59, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Even better would be just 'nationalupdate' (and related 'clubupdate') as it is the exact same length as 'nationalgoals1' etc. GiantSnowman 20:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Support makes sense. --SuperJew (talk) 19:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Not to be awkward, but because I don't see the point: it looks like change for change's sake. Why would 'national-update' "match" 'club-update' better than 'nationalteam-update' does? Club counts the number of appearances made for the club, and nationalteam counts the number of appearances made for the nationalteam: that looks pretty well matched to me. As to space-saving, the parameter was changed (many years ago) from the shorter 'ntupdate' to make it meaningful. All that'll happen if we start trimming it again is that a few people will waste server time and space by making automated edits to change the old name to the new name for the sake of saving a few characters of wikitext and making no difference whatsoever to what the reader sees. It's not as if many people actually type in parameter names; they copypaste from another article or from the documentation.

    Probably it'd be a good idea if this proposal were advertised at WT:FOOTY, to encourage opinions from people who create infoboxes but don't watch this page. I'll mention it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Oppose I believe the current name is more informative for contributors who update infoboxes than the proposed alternative. Saving space isn't really an important issue here. LTFC 95 (talk) 21:49, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Sorry for the belated reply, I never got a notification. As I said above, the parameter names were changed from 'pcupdate' and 'ntupdate' when the current infobox format was being trialled 6 or 7 years ago, to the more meaningful 'club-update' and 'nationalteam-update'. The idea was that we should go over to using the "new" names; as far as I recall, there was no opposition. When the documentation for the "new" infobox went in, there was no mention of the old names at all, but someone thought they should be mentioned, to inform people who still came across them, and someone else then "added previously to enforce idea that it should not now be used". Pity they didn't choose the word "deprecated" instead, because that was what was intended to happen.

    While 'ntupdate' still works, people can't be stopped from using it. But I can't think of a good reason why anyone should want to change articles away from a meaningful name that was adopted by consensus in order to use an uninformative one that was dropped by consensus. How does that help contributors who update infoboxes? cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:05, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

date format

While we're talking about the name of the parameter could we also talk about the date format? The documentation recommends using a timestamp, which Mattythewhite enforces as law. Personally I think the date is enough for the reader, and it is usually updated a day or more after the last match played. The time just adds excessive detail and distracts more than adds. --SuperJew (talk) 21:22, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Since 90% of edits on infoboxes don't bother updating the date, when I update infoboxes I check the history of the page to see if it's been updated for the match in question. Therefore it's not consequential (most of the time) either way and therefore just adds excessive detail. --SuperJew (talk) 21:32, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
  • I don't really see what the issue is here. Writing five tildes (~~~~~) to automatically generate the date and time saves a lot of time and effort, rather than updating the parameter manually. LTFC 95 (talk) 22:01, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Another point to consider is that the automatic timestamp automatically uses the British format, which wouldn't work for American, Canadian, etc. players. --SuperJew (talk) 19:26, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Weight

Could "weight" be added? I think it would be a useful addition to the template as an option. Igor Bišćan (talk) 00:57, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. For one thing, weight can fluctuate a lot and it's not always recorded accurately, unlike a player's height. – PeeJay 07:45, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
I also disagree for the same reasons as PJ. GiantSnowman 07:54, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
Disagree too. As it is we have IMO enough issues with the height option. --SuperJew (talk) 18:32, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Fixed to also show managerclubs

I have fixed the protected {Infobox football biography}, from the sandbox, to show both managerclubs & managerclubs1 (together at label83/data83) when both are specified. I've seen similar templates showing both "thing=" & "thing1=" to allow renumbering a list quicker from the start (rather than renumber all 1-to-n things), when a managerclubsx is inserted near the start of a list. It works as if managerclubs is "managerclubs0" in sequence. I tested some pages, but only 135 pages used "managerclubs=" so far. -Wikid77 (talk) 07:26, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

The most recent edit added some extra vertical space between manager career entries 1 and 2. Would be great to fix it. --BlameRuiner (talk) 09:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
@Wikid77: Can you fix this please. Number 57 10:52, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, the inter-line spacing has changed (as in page "Jimmy Melia"), so I will redo using the same unclosed wp:spantags as other parameters. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:10, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

DONE. I have re-fixed manageryears & managerclubs for inter-line spacing with managerclubs1, at label83/data83, by wrapping line-breaks in spantag <span style="line-height:1.8em"><br></span>. I had forgotten some editors put all clubs under managerclubs by string of club names separated by breaks "<br>" as a method to avoid renumbering "managerclubsx=" for omitted clubs as just giant list also in "manageryears=...<br>...<br>...". Thanks, everyone for checking results. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:53, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Birth name?

I noticed at least 5 transclusions using |birth_name=, for players who had changed names after birth (e.g., after marriage like Leigh Ann Brown). should we add this? possibly as an alternative to |fullname= to avoid having too many names? many other biography templates have this (e.g., {{infobox person}}). Frietjes (talk) 16:30, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Sounds good - will apply almost predominantly to female player but also male players, such as Ian Thomas-Moore. GiantSnowman 16:34, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Don't forget Ryan Joseph Wilson. – PeeJay 00:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
now added, and used in Alfréd Fehérvári, József Künsztler, Michael Theo, ... Frietjes (talk) 16:57, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
Added to Nicole Begg and Beverly Yanez. --SuperJew (talk) 18:06, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Player with more than 40 clubs

what should we do about Bertie Brayley? currently, 41st club isn't showing since the template only supports 40. I can add another 5 if we need it. Frietjes (talk) 20:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Holy shmoely! Is that a record? --SuperJew (talk) 21:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
I'd take it up to 50 to be safe. GiantSnowman 21:18, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
done. Frietjes (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Players with more than 8 youth clubs

Aleksandar Janković (footballer, born 1995), Daniel Cardoso (footballer), Jairo Neto, and Petar Zivkov are all using more than 8 youth clubs, so the last one or two are not showing. should we add support for up to 10, or is there a better way to fix these articles? Frietjes (talk) 14:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Expand to 10. GiantSnowman 17:48, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
expanded. Frietjes (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Career highlights and awards

Shouldn't we add the "Career highlights and awards" tab, like the one in NBA and NFL players? I know it's different, but it's an amazing way of showing more the greatness of a player to a reader and highlight it. I think we could estipulate using only "continental and world awards", like Champions League/World awards and titles and UEFA's/FIFPro's Teams of The Year, and for other continents too, obviously. The Sandman (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

An "amazing" way to show the "greatness" of a player through "career highlights"? No. WP:NPOV / WP:OR applies. Football is not (thankfully) like American sports. GiantSnowman 19:23, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Nope. Kante4 (talk) 19:36, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Not a good idea. Will inevitably end in endless edit warring. Number 57 21:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Thankfully I'm Brazilian and not really an American sports fan... just trying to get a good idea from there. The way everything shows worthless awards together with major ones it's just stupid. And how it is not a Neutral Point of View? It shows facts, but it gives more highlight to important ones, just that. The Sandman (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Dominant foot??

How is this missing?? THIS IS IMPORTANT INFORMATION IN SOCCER!! Can you fix this, please? George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 06:52, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

No it's not. GiantSnowman 08:01, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Agreed. Totally unnecessary. Number 57 17:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

You probably don't play soccer. It is important when defining the line-up. A left-footed player might preferred over a right-footed one. Players using both feet are surely a great contribution to a team. Anyways, it is obvious that either you know little and/or no one else cares. Thanks for nothing...

P. S.: You might want to take some minutes to send a couple of e-mails and tell specialized sites to get rid of information about dominant feet. Example: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fernando-llorente/profil/spieler/35564 Also, to video game fans: http://sofifa.com/player/162131 And, please, also ignore research suggesting that "...studies have reported that soccer players' left-right preferences can be explained by the functional advantage gained by using their dominant leg (Dörge et al., 2002; Nunome et al., 2006). Thus, laterality allows soccer players to exercise precise control over their movements, which is also an important indicator of performance quality (Teixeira et al., 2011). Kicking direction is also influenced by laterality, and is one of the factors that has been evaluated in studies of goal-side selection in penalty kicking (Weigelt and Memmert, 2012).": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882477/ George Rodney Maruri Game (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Text highlight color when embedded

To increase readibility, maybe we should add highlight color in text when embedded, the color itself is a bit lighter. (such as {{infobox officeholder}}).

And I found typo in goals 38 & goals 48. Hddty. (talk) 12:43, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

thank you, now fixed. Frietjes (talk) 15:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
@Frietjes: For color when embedded (in "Personal details", "Senior career", etc) what would you think to change to other color instead of white? In Michel Platini it changed by itself, not white. Hddty. (talk) 10:24, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
Hddty. in Michel Platini the subbox uses |header-color=lavender. any valid html color works. Frietjes (talk) 15:18, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
@Frietjes: I mean why not add that with color lavender in this infobox? Hddty. (talk) 12:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Hddty. probably for historical reasons. if you would like to change the colouring, I suggest starting a thread at WT:FOOTY. Frietjes (talk) 13:33, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Honours

Hi, I'm Seba Alfaro, in this format where it says medaltemplates, at the time of recording the page comes out "Honours", and the problem is the following. The American players do not correspond to abbreviate with "Honours", it has to be with "Honors", because they are Americans and it has to be in the American form. A special case for them.

Can you co-ordinate that detail, please? --Seba Alfaro (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Manager update

I always wonder if the clubs managed are updated or not. Why not add a parameter for that? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

The club/national updates are for statistics, not 'current' club/nation - we don't have that issue with managers. GiantSnowman 17:23, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
I know they don't include statistics, but they can still include unupdated information. If manager leaves the club or goes to another team, we would still think he is at old club. Maybe it's not so necessary with the well-known managers, but in somecases it's still a problem. I mean if it would be used in rare cases - why would it be bad? --Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
If you think information is out-of-date, then the article should be tagged with {{update}}. GiantSnowman 17:34, 25 January 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 15 March 2018 - adding upright

Please add a parameter upright for the image. Right now it just set to 1 in:

| image       = {{#invoke:InfoboxImage|InfoboxImage|image={{{image|}}}|size={{{image_size|}}}|sizedefault=frameless|upright=1|alt={{{alt|}}}|suppressplaceholder=yes}}

i.e. change it to

| image       = {{#invoke:InfoboxImage|InfoboxImage|image={{{image|}}}|size={{{image_size|}}}|sizedefault=frameless|upright={{upright|}}}|alt={{{alt|}}}|suppressplaceholder=yes}}

Christian75 (talk) 07:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. Your brackets don't balance, upright={{upright|}}}. Cabayi (talk) 10:09, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 15 March 2018

Please update with sandbox version, [1], see Template:Infobox football biography/testcases for test. Same request as previous request, but without typo. Christian75 (talk) 15:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:57, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 23 March 2018

Is there a way to fix an existing bug that I have found on one of the football articles - after the update date, there are one or two ref tags and then a full stop - e.g. (UTC)[1]. It should read something like this - (UTC).[2] Iggy (Swan) 20:22, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Ref before punctuation
  2. ^ Ref after punctuation
so you are asking about Lucy Bronze? you could move the footnotes elsewhere. Frietjes (talk) 21:10, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes that's done. Iggy (Swan) 22:55, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 Done I don't see any need for a full stop at the end of such a short explanatory note/caption/reference/etc. I've removed it. Primefac (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Honorific Prefix

Why is there no option to add honors to football players? The option is there in Athlete/Sportsperson templates. Players like David Beckham have received the OBE. Players like Luis Figo & Cristiano Ronaldo have received the OIH and the GOIH. The David Beckham page has incorporated the person template to accommodate the OBE since it's not possible using the football biography template and it looks weird showing the football stats in a person template. There are many football players who have received National honors/orders and it should be possible to display them, just like it's shown in articles like Usain Bolt. Shady59 (talk) 01:07, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

I would say we don't include it because it's not relevant to their football career. – PeeJay 09:43, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
It can already be done without needing another parameter – see Alex Ferguson. Beckham should have the football infobox restored to the article. Number 57 10:42, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
The football infobox is embedded in {{Infobox person}} for Beckham, and since he's done more than just football stuff since retiring, I think it makes sense to leave it as-is. – PeeJay 13:39, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Well, it's the profile of a person first, then a football player. The National honors bestowed to them are their highest honors as a person. They still have a long life ahead even after their career. Shady59 (talk) 17:22, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
Of course this is relevant to the person's football career - do you think Sir Alf Ramsey would have been knighted if he as a welder? Besides which, if the parameters are not available, people will just shoe-horn the details, wrongly, into |name=, as done for Alex Ferguson. Note that almost every other biographical infobox has |honorific_prefix= and |honorific_suffix=. So I've added those, and fixed the Ferguson biography. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:36, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
There's no consensus for this change, so I've undone it. The Alex Ferguson example looked awful, with far too much whitespace above his infobox. Number 57 22:43, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
We have an |embed= parameter which can be utilised if required. GiantSnowman
So propose alternative styling, and WP:DNRNC. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Consensus is clearly going to be required for changes to a template that is used on tens of thousands of articles. I also don't think alternative styling is required; the status quo on articles like Alex Ferguson is better than what it was briefly changed to yesterday IMO. Number 57 12:27, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Consensus already exists to emit semantically marked up metadata from this infobox, using hCard microformat markup. That requires separate properties for name, honorific prefix and honorific suffix. The string "Sir Alex Ferguson CBE" includes all three of these, and is not merely a name. Furthermore, there is consensus for separate parameters for honorifics and names in biographical infoboxes (used on millions of articles), across Wikipedia. Since you apparently do not object to the use of the honorifics "Sir" and "OBE" in the Alex Ferguson infobox, your objections are solely about how they are presented; which is entirely a matter of styling. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:00, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Adding |honorific_prefix= and |honorifc_suffix= would bring this infobox inline with other biographical infoboxes. The current st up, such as at Bobby Robson, means that post-nominal letters get (wrongly) added to the name parameter where they don't belong. It also benefits from having dedicated formatting that makes honorifics smaller than the name and not bold. Could these parameters please be (re-)added. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk 20:26, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Again, the embed parameter is there already for this purpose. GiantSnowman 07:41, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
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