Template talk:EW charity/Archive 1

Archive 1

Problems - Sept 2008

The Charity Commission have redesigned their website. It now appears impossible to have a consistent formula to go from registration number to charity record. I have amended the template so that it works for some, rather than no, charities, and have contacted the Commission's web department to explain how difficult their changes have made things for this template and presumably many other organisations who want to link easily to charity info. Watch this space. PamD (talk) 08:19, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks PamD for your work on this, and if it hasn't been said already, it's a superbly useful template.--mervyn (talk) 10:47, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

This template doesn't seem to work for Build a School although the charity number does seem to match the details on the Charity Commission website. --JBellis (talk) 19:44, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

There were two problems on the Build a School site - I've removed the stray space which was producing a strange output, but the template still doesn't work. I've contacted my contact at the Charity Commission website again to ask whether there is a workround- in October they revamped the site so there was no longer a straight mapping from charity number to the page for a charity, as the page URLs come in two versions. I might have to produce two separate versions, or just abandon the template. I hope he'll get back to me. PamD (talk) 11:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Revisions to template: (1) name of template

The template was renamed a while ago by an editor who reasonably objected to it using "UK" when it only applies to England and Wales. I have today rescued the documentation subpage, renaming it so that it now links from the template page again, and editing it so it matches the current name. PamD (talk) 22:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Why the name change?

Why EW charity instead of UK charity. Try as I might, I cannot work out the significance of the initials EW. --TimTay (talk) 10:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

You could ask User:Mais oui! who made the change (and didn't follow through all its implications)! But it's clearly "England and Wales", by an editor who feels it's inappropriate to use "UK" for a template which doesn't apply to Scotland (separate template) or Northern Ireland (can't find any online info). I can see their point, and wish there was a clearer way to abbreviate it, but "EngWal charity" is a lot to type and the idea is to make life simpler. What do you think? PamD (talk) 10:54, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Revisions to template (2) alternative link to cope with Charity Commission's changes

Since the Charity Commission updated their website it has been impossible for this template to make a straight map from Charity number to URL. My contact at the Charity Commission hasn't replied to two emails about this. The problem can be seen by looking at Ramblers Association at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ShowCharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1093577 and Peace Mala at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/ShowCharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1118053. I think the former version ("...WithPartB...") is the more common.

I felt there were three options:

(a) Abandon the template - so all links to CC would have to be individually coded, and individually mended if/when they redesign their site again

(b) Create two templates, and require editors to work out by experimentation which one to use for any given charity - which presumably would not necessarily be fixed for any one charity as it might (I don't know) move from one category to the other over time

(c) Modify the template so that it offers the more likely link, and an alternative.

I've had a go at option (c), and hope that other editors will approve. Please let me have any comments, either here or on my talk page. PamD (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I do find the template very useful - and still works in may cases - so hope it can be modified, but only if it is a sensible use of your time/expertise. Sorry I don't have the skill to offer to help. Good luck with trying. --mervyn (talk) 09:17, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Mervyn. In fact I'd implemented a change to the template when I wrote the above - perhaps I didn't make that clear enough. What do you think of the "this link or that" version I've come up with? Have a look at a few charities and see what you think. It seems that it takes a while for a template to update - I'm currently seeing the old version at Ramblers Association but the new one at Peace Mala and Millennium Stadium Charitable Trust. PamD (talk) 10:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that the current version makes the best of a difficult situation. The only alternative would be to abandon the template completely and put direct links in every charity article - not a realistic option IMHO as it would multiply the maintenance needs if the CC were to change their URL's again. --TimTay (talk) 11:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Solution - Feb 2009

I think we've got it solved. A very helpful new contact at the Charity Commission gave me the formula for a URL which should work in all cases. I've amended the template. Please let me know if there are any problems! PamD (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

April 2016

I've been bold and I have updated the template and the documentation. It is now a wrapper around {{cite book}} an is similar to {{National Heritage List for England}}. I have however left the old functionality in place so that the template still functions correctly with unnamed parameters. -- PBS (talk) 09:29, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

See Croome Court#cite_note-FOOTNOTECharity_Commission1120792-15 for an example of the new format in action. -- PBS (talk) 10:12, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Wikidata; base template

This template should now be made to pull values from Wikidata, using Charity Commission no. (P3057), if no local value is present. Also, why is this using {{Cite book}}? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:55, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

@PBS:. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:56, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is it using cite book?

1. So that it can be used as a long reference and short inline citation using the ref={{harv}} parameter.
2. So that it has the standard layout that all the other templates have, including the ability to change the style using mode etc.

Why should it "be made to pull values from Wikidata" as it always requests a local value and puts up a red warning string if none is given?

-- PBS (talk) 18:11, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Problems again: 2020 reload of register

It seems that the Charity Commission website has been rearranged again so that our URLs don't work any more. I have emailed the helpful Mr Tony Dunn who helped us sort this out the last two times: I hope he is still in post, and not furloughed. Meanwhile I think we have a lot of links which lead only to the generic search page on gov.uk. PamD 22:38, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

We managed to fix it for some charities e.g. "The Woodland Trust, registered charity no. 294344". Charity Commission for England and Wales. but for others the number in the URL does not seem to match the charity number e.g. "Breakthrough Breast Cancer, registered charity no. 1062636". Charity Commission for England and Wales. which is actually at [1]. Pam has asked the Charity Commission for help via their feedback form. the wub "?!" 16:03, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Not ideal as it's an extra click, but you can link to their search results using the charity number, thus [2] Dr-Mx (talk) 11:46, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• There is now a reply on uk.gov here - andd also several other comments from other organisations facing a similar problem of mapping from registration number into a usable URL. The answer provided seems extraordinarily cumbersome, but perhaps someone (@The wub:?) can work with it? PamD 13:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@PamD: Unfortunately their reply isn't helpful. The extra parameters they want us to add just indicate which page to go back to in the search form. It doesn't get around the fact that some charity numbers no longer seem to map directly to the "organisationNumber" in the URL.

Since this issue is affecting a fair number of charities from my random sample, I think Dr-Mx's idea of just linking to the search form with the charity number is best, and have gone ahead and done this. It means an extra click for the reader, and occasionally shows unrelated charities as well as the desired one, but at least it seems to work for all charity numbers. the wub "?!" 15:08, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Improvement suggestion

I think the output would read much better if it were in the form

• Charityname, registered charity no. nnnnnnnn at Charity Commission

It's the external link that is of the most use, so that should be the first link presented. Using "at" is also clearer than having two links separated by a period. --91.125.44.68 (talk) 08:29, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Just to add that putting it this way around makes it consistent with {{Scottish charity}} and {{Northern Ireland charity}} --91.125.44.68 (talk) 08:45, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Nobody disagreed so I fixed it to match the Scottish and NI templates. --10mmsocket (talk) 08:33, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Links to search page, not charity page

I suppose this is due to the Web site changing, but as of 29 December 2021 for the case I was looking at the template opened the Charity Commission search page and found the charity in question, instead of opening it. The call was "The Charleston Trust, registered charity no. 1107313". Charity Commission for England and Wales.. My workaround is to link the page directly, without template. Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 13:30, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Slight aside, but that's a really good example of a badly run charity. It spends 47% of its annual expenditure on things other than its charitable purpose - and that's despite getting government grants that are larger that what it actually does spend on its charitable purpose. It demonstrates why the ability to link to the Charity Commission pages is such a good thing. 10mmsocket (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

And they got grants of £330,000 last year and this year from taxpayers, mainly to repair a private road apparently belonging to a Conservative former peer (link in the article). Pol098 (talk) 12:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Oh them! Wow. Right. Let me sharpen my axe... 10mmsocket (talk) 16:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

(later) Reading the previous discussion carefully, it seems that the template is intended to open just the search page, which seems a retrograde step - a template is supposed to simplify linking the reader to a page, with less work for the editor, rather than link to the wrong page. So I prefer not to use the template. Pol098 (talk) 14:57, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

(later still) I've added to the documentation that the template opens the search page, not the charity's record. Happy New Year, and may it be better than the previous two. Pol098 (talk) 12:00, 31 December 2021 (UTC)