Template talk:Cite Grove

Link OUP

Is there no way to link the OUP? I'd like to use this template more, but when I have source sections I link publishers, so need consistent linking across the sources... Aza24 (talk) 03:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there is. I implemented it in the sandbox and the effects can be inspected at the testcases page. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:39, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. There should probably also be a way to add "Oxford" as the location to Oxford University Press when locations & publishers are used in a sources section. Aza24 (talk) 04:55, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Done; see diff and Template:Cite Grove/testcases. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:01, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Great! Are we awaiting any further input to insert it into the actual template? (Or is it already there?) – Aza24 (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't do that. |location=Oxford and |publisher=[[Oxford University Press]] is redundant because the city is stated in the publisher's name. Such redundancy is discouraged. See the documentation for |publication-place= at {{cite encyclopedia}} which this template wraps – here we are using |location= which is an alias of |publication-place=.

If you must include |location=Oxford, you can do so by including that parameter in the call to {{cite Grove}}:

{{Cite Grove |author=Yampolsky |display-authors=etal |title=Indonesia |doi=10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.42890 |location=Oxford}}

Philip Yampolsky; et al. (2001). "Indonesia". Grove Music Online (8th ed.). Oxford: Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/gmo/9781561592630.article.42890. ISBN 978-1-56159-263-0.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there must be an option available for the additional parameter. There are huge amounts of citations systems on Wikipedia and among the most widespread are those which include a location for every publisher. If this template does not include such a parameter then this template cannot be used in those bibliographies. “Redundancy” is not relevant here. Aza24 (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

In many cases, |location= is indeed redundant, but here |location=Oxford is not because they also publish books elsewhere, in New York City at least. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Were this work published out of New York, the template should say so because 'New York' is not part of the publisher's name. In this instance, the work is published out of Oxford so the repetitive 'Oxford: Oxford' in the rendering is needlessly redundant so |location= should be blanked when Oxford University Press is the publisher.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, there must be an option available for the additional parameter.

If this template does not include such a parameter then this template cannot be used in those bibliographies.

Did I not just show you how to add |location= when you deem it necessary? The option is already available. This template should not emit 'Oxford: Oxford University Press' because the 'Oxford: Oxford' repetition is redundant. When citing the Macmillan version with this template, inclusion of |location=London is appropriate and should be / is auto-filled by the template:

{{Cite Grove|author=Snyder, Kerala J|title=Dieterich Buxtehude}}

Snyder, Kerala J (2001). "Dieterich Buxtehude". In Sadie, Stanley; Tyrrell, John (eds.). The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians (2nd ed.). London: Macmillan Publishers. ISBN 978-1-56159-239-5.

There are huge amounts of citations systems on Wikipedia and among the most widespread are those which include a location for every publisher.^{[Citation needed]} As I write this, en.wiki has:

{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}} articles → 6,908,923 articles

{{Cite Grove}} is a wrapper template around {{cite encyclopedia}} one of the 26 CS1 templates. Those templates are rendered by Module:Citation/CS1. As I write this, that module is linked from 5,580,000+ articles. Of the 5,580,000+ articles that use cs1|2, {{cite book}} is used on 1,590,000+ articles; {{cite encyclopedia}} is used on 204,000+ articles (of course there is likely overlap there). {{Citation}}, which by default, renders a book-style reference is used on 403,000+ articles – this number is not too helpful because {{citation}} can be used to cite books, encyclopediae, websites, journals and other periodicals. CS1|2 is the predominant citation style used at en.wiki; none of the book/encyclopedia templates require |location=. The option is there should editors want it. Where the city of publication can be determined from the publisher name, |location= should be omitted.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Are you done? I thought admin-ship would have humbled you to not consistently ignore agf and maybe think that others are trying to help, clearly I was wrong. More of the same accusatory nonsense and pettiness. Directly quoting me to "disagree" and adding a "citation needed" to a comment of mine? Truly unbearable. Well, congratulations, you've proved your point. Doesn't matter though, you'll read this and move on like you didn't do anything. Hopefully you're more pleasant to the next person you interact with. Aza24 (talk) 17:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

So you would have me humbly and meekly accept whatever you write, no matter the validity? I have not accused you of anything. I did ask you to support your claims which I quoted so that we all know what it is that I want from you.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

"Support my claims" – my claims that what? Some citation systems use the location for every publisher? Just look at the last five FAC nominations, or just pick a random article. WP:CITEVAR is a guideline. This will be my last response. Aza24 (talk) 03:33, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I have updated the live template to link the publishers.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:33, 13 August 2023 (UTC)