Template talk:Armenian diaspora

Javakheti as an Armenian homeland?

"There are no exact borders between historical Armenia and Georgia." - Dear 173.76.95.250, and that is why mentioning Javakheti within Armenian homeland is an obvious POV. We cannot edit pages on nationalistic basis (Armenian or Georgian, it doesn't matter). My version is much more acurate and NPOV. –BruTe ^Talk 06:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not editing page by mu own views. Where have you see nationalism here??? Even if you consider Javakhk-Javakheti as Georgian historical land, it is part of the Armenian Highland. Also, if you agree, I can change it to "Homeland and adjacent territories". That will be true in any way. And it will be neutral. --Yerevanci (talk) 17:19, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree for the following reason: Armenian diaspora is a certain article and I think we would both agree that Armenian Highland/Homeland has nothing to do with this template which is only about a diaspora and nothing more. –BruTe ^Talk 08:45, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

OK. Look at this.

Do you see that it's divided to 2 sections: Homeland and Diaspora. Or this one.

Do you see that they are divided to 2 sections. So your arguments are unacceptable.--Yerevanci (talk) 15:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so and I don't think it's clever contrast between Assyrian and Armenian people. Assyrians were natives to those teritorries mentioned at that template as a "Homeland", but for our case it was just a greatest extent of the Kingdom of Armenia. I don't say that historical homeland of the Armenians is only modern-day Armenia but this is a controversial issue since there are no exact borders of historical Armenia. That's why I'm against changing this version of the template which is more acurate and NPOV than yours. –BruTe ^Talk 11:42, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

It’s not about the greatest extent of the Kingdom of Armenia, some historical Armenian lands were never part of Armenia (like Javakhk was part of Armenia only during Tigran the Great’s kingdom, but it was 2000 years ago) and vice versa, some not historical Armenian lands were part of Armenia (Cilicia, Greeks were living there long before us).

So I think the term “Homeland and adjacent territories” should be acceptable for Javakheti-Javakhk.--Yerevanci (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but many greek authors not to mention Movses of Khorene have written, that the boundary between Iberia and Kingdom of Armenian is the river Kura. I think that our georgian collegue knows that very well!--91.204.190.23 (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry my Armenian collegue but what about those "greek authors" have written? The Kingdom of Armenia under Tigranes II or historical boundaries of the Armenians? And by the way, I'm not an "ultra nationalist" as you wrote in your edit summary. Please consult WP:PERSONAL. Thanks! –BruTe ^Talk 19:25, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

OK BruTe, if you need a neutral POV, please see this (http://www.archive.org/stream/armeniatravelsst01lync#page/452/mode/2up) book. And on the map on left you'll see this (please see this image - http://i006.radikal.ru/1108/72/7745d4ac262d.jpg) The author is H. F. B. Lynch, and the book is from 1901. I don't think you have something against his neutrality.--Yerevanci (talk) 21:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

By definition, any presence of sizable ethnic community in another country is considered "diaspora". Is there any third-party source defining Javakheti as "homeland"/"adjacent territories" or whatever you call it. The term “Homeland and adjacent territories” sounds pretty much like WP:OR to me. Sources, please... --Kober^Talk 17:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, here is the definition from Diaspora page.

A diaspora (from Greek διασπορά, "scattering, dispersion") is "the movement, migration, or scattering of people away from an established or ancestral homeland" or "people dispersed by whatever cause to more than one location", or "people settled far from their ancestral homelands".

• the movement, migration, or scattering of people away from an established or ancestral homeland
• people dispersed by whatever cause to more than one location
• people settled far from their ancestral homelands

Do you see that just because Javakheti-Javakhk is part of Georgia, doesn't mean it's a diaspora. Javakhk at some point of history (look below) was part of Armenia, so it can be considered as Armenian homeland, but not diaspora. --Yerevanci (talk) 22:55, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I think everyone can understand russina. well here it is:

[Russian removed]

I must agree with Brute, mentioning Javakheti, Nakhchivan, Karabakh within Armenian homeland is very POV. Neftchi (talk) 11:48, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I also want to note that original research is not allowed. This template is about the Armenian diaspora, so stick to the subject and do not provoke with terms as "homeland". Another thing is that the small explanations behind the regions are also POV and do not reflect any kind of neutrality. For example: "About 85,000 Armenians of Lower Artsakh left their homes since the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict broke out" - are you kidding me? The almost 85,000 people that left were ethnic Azerbaijanis who represented about a quarter of the NK population. They were not Armenians, this proofs your original research and that is against Wiki regulations. Or for example: "Armenians left their homes, because of the anti-Armenian policy of Azerbaijan and later Soviet Azerbaijan." - Have you never read history books? Soviet Azerbaijan was prior to independent Azerbaijan. Not to mention what anti-Armenian policy? There was also anti-Azerbaijan policy in Armenia, it was war. To summ things up, there is no neutrality, the term is POV and even incorrect information with original research. For these reasons I support Kober and Brute and restored their version of the template. Neftchi (talk) 12:00, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

This edit by Yerevanci could be considered an act of vandalism. He did not answer the questions put forth by Brute, nor he did answer the questions by Kober and most recently he didnt give any attention to my arguments I made here above. I reverted his changes until he can give some answers. Neftchi (talk) 09:17, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I also want to add that it is established that user Yerevanci is Hovik, sockpuppetry is against wiki regulations. [1] Neftchi (talk) 13:22, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Yerevanci, your links prove nothing regarding the definition of the Javakheti Armenian community. You should provide neutral, third-party sources directly referring to the community as "non-diaspora". Otherwise your edits are an example of WP:OR/WP:SYNTHESIS/WP:POV.--Kober^Talk 05:36, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Javakhk/Javakheti issue

Samtskhe-Javakheti is an administrative division of modern Georgia. Javakheti is the Georgian name of a historical region in Caucasus, which is referred to as Javakhk by Armenians. This template is about the Armenian diaspora.

For a more clear view see this template and please carefully look at the top section. Did you find "Sudetenland"? It is the German name of the region, while it is and was part of Czech lands and the name in Czech is "Sudety", but because the template is about the Germans, name of the region is the German one, not Czech. No one argues the fact that Javakheti/Javakhk is part of Georgia, please do not misunderstand.

--Yerevanci (talk) 23:50, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Weak argument Yerevanci. Sudeteland is included in Czech republic and so should be Javakheti into Georgia. That's why I am removing it from the bar of historical/traditional places as you put. It's odd what historic or traditional heritage do Armenians have for Georgian region. Majority of Armenians who live in Georgia for now they all were settled by Russian Empire into Georgian lands by Mr Paskevich if you're not aware. And as for Javakheti region what you call Javahk Russian Empire made a purposeful ethnical and demographic attack on Javakhi people (indigenous group of Georgians) and made them into minority in its own land. So it's ridiculous to claim it as a historical settlement of Armenians. Javakheti is named because there lived and live Javakhi people not Armenians who were settled there from Kars, Erzurum etc. by Russian Empire. It should be put into Georgia not some other place. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 09:10, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Weak argument Jorjadze. Almost every person who lives in modern Armenia today are either descendants of the Armenian Genocide survivors from Western Armenian or descendants of Persian and Ottoman Armenians who came there in 1828-1829. Just because Javakhk's today's Armenian population was settled there in 1828, doesn't mean that Armenians did not live there before as well.

Please give me one neutral (non-Georgian) source that proves your following statement. Russian Empire made a purposeful ethnical and demographic attack on Javakhi people (indigenous group of Georgians) and made them into minority in its own land. --Yerevanci (talk) 21:05, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

I must agree you on that. Present Armenians are the refugees from Anatolia and they migrated to present Armenia because of the events in Ottoman Empire. As for Javakheti it never belonged to Armenia and that is clear. Massive immigration to Georgia of Armenians by encouraging from Russians started in the begining of 19th century as the Georgian Kingdoms were annexed by Russia. GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 11:16, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

OK then what are your criteria for being belonged to Armenia?? Present day Armenia was under a foreign control for about 900 years. The last Armenian dynasty, the Bagratids fell in 1045 and it wasn't until 1918 when Republic of Armenia was proclaimed. How can you say that this particular region didn't belong to Armenia? If you're talking about the last Armenian dynasty the Bagratids, well their kingdom did include Javakheti/Javakhk, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bagratuni_Armenia_1000-en.svg.--Yerevanci (talk) 19:55, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, J̌awakx’ Nerk’in and J̌awakx’ Verin were part of Gugark, listed among the historical provinces of Armenia. GeorgianJorjadze's claim is groundless. Sardur (talk) 22:37, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Sardur, all of today's Armenia was part of Georgian kingdom as well. Should we put all the nowadays Armenian provinces and regions into the Georgian historical templates? GeorgianJorjadze (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Jorjadze, you did not answer my question. What are your criteria for being belonged to Armenia??--Yerevanci (talk) 15:47, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Turkish Armenians as part of the diaspora?

Armenians in Turkey, such as Hrant Dink, do not consider themselves (and are not considered?) part of the Armenian Diaspora, since they have been living in their historical homeland for more than four thousand years. Why are they included here?

Sources:

• Baronian, Marie-Aude; Besser, Stephan; Jansen, Yolande (2006-01-01). Diaspora and Memory: Figures of Displacement in Contemporary Literature, Arts and Politics. BRILL. doi:10.1163/9789401203807_006. ISBN 978-94-012-0380-7.
• Baser, Bahar; Swain, Ashok (2009). "Diaspora Design Versus Homeland Realities: Case Study of Armenian Diaspora". Caucasian Review of International Affairs: 57.

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:44, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

This article also seems to oppose the diaspora to Armenians in Turkey: The diaspora in general is perceived as not being appropriately sensitive to the vulnerable nature of the Istanbul Armenians, who will ultimately bear the brunt of any repercussions, as they have previously. (poke @Archives908) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:56, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

You have the opinion of one person! Job well done! Unfortunately, that's not how Wikipedia works. Armenians have NEVER inhabitied all of Anatolia before. To claim that Armenians are indigenous to all of Anatolia is an inaccuracy, they are indigenous to the Armenian Highlands of West Asia. Some may indeed claim that these regions are their homeland, but to say that Armenians across all of modern day Turkey don't classify themselves as diasporan is totally unfounded. Archives908 (talk) 16:04, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I gave you three reliable sources that do not consider Armenians in Turkey as part of the diaspora. Besides your original research, do you have reliable sources claiming the opposite? Only reliable sources matter, neither your opinion nor mine.

(btw, here's someone else's opinion that I find interesting, even though not RS of course: "Are Native Americans who reside in San Francisco part of the Native American diaspora? Are Australian aborigines who reside in Sydney part of the aboriginal diaspora? In this case, we call them indigeneous populations not diaspora, since these people did not cross any international borders to reside in San Francisco or Sydney. The same is true of Armenians in Istanbul, most of whom have come there from inner Anatolia.") a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:08, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Another source that doesn't consider Armenians in Istanbul part of the diaspora: Ors, B., & Komsuoglu, A. (2007). Turkey’s Armenians: A Research note on Armenian identity. Nationalism and Ethnic Politics, 13 (3), 405-429 a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

None of the sources you have provided confirm that every Armenian in Turkey vehemently rejects themselves belonging to the Diaspora. There are Armenians outside of Istanbul fyi. I'll wait for any WP:RS that supports your claim. Archives908 (talk) 16:28, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't need "every Armenian in Turkey" to "vehemently rejects themselves belonging to the Diaspora". We just need RS saying that they don't belong to it. And that's what they say. Another one btw: "Today Armenians in Turkey tend to be either families who have living there for generations -- the bolsahays who do not consider themselves part of the diaspora as Turkey is their homeland, or people who are temporarily in the country for trade." a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:31, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

For the record, I'm not arguing that your sources have no merit. I do not dispute that some Armenians in Istanbul and elsewhere in Turkey may feel that they are in their ancestral homeland. However, these sources are still generalizations, opinions of either a single individual or a small group of people. They do not reflect the entire Armenian community in Turkey, who may not share these beliefs. That is why this edit seems reckless to me. Archives908 (talk) 16:38, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

"They do not reflect the entire Armenian community in Turkey, who may not share these beliefs.": we don't care about this. Sources (at least those I found) don't classify Armenians in Turkey (at least those in İstanbul) as part of the diaspora. So this template, like any other content on Wikipedia, should follow RS and not put Armenians in Turkey in the diaspora. But as @Place Clichy noted, an alternative can be to rename the template "Armenians". The template is already misnamed as it does include "Historic areas of Armenian settlement", and especially NK and Armenia. So what about renaming to {{ArmenianNavbox}} and changing the title from "Armenian diaspora" to "Armenians"?

By the way, other RS:

• Hranush Hakobyan, Minister of Diaspora: "Diaspora represents all the Armenians who live beyond the Armenian Highland. In this context, we have singled out the Armenians of Istanbul and those living on the territory of Western Armenia. Those people have inhabited the lands for thousands of years, and they are not considered Diaspora [representatives]." source
• "Vahakn Karakashian, the editor-in-chief of Horizon newspaper in Canada, agreed that the 50,000-strong Armenian community in Istanbul should not be considered part of the diaspora, adding that Armenians have historical treasures in the area." and an opposite view: source, from Hürriyet

The only source that I found that presents a slightly different opinion is the Armenian Weekly: "Papazian formulated his thesis following numerous interviews with Istanbul-Armenians, some of whom felt themselves a diaspora and consider historical towns in the Eastern part of Turkey (known in Armenia as Western Armenia) as their homeland; others rejected that they are a part of the Diaspora, and consider Istanbul their home; and a third group falls somewhere in between, not believing themselves to be Diasporan, yet not feeling themselves quite at home in Istanbul, either." I contacted Papazian to get his thesis. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I just don't think it's worth it, here on the template. Everybody understands that concisely presenting Armenian population and Armenian diaspora throughout the world includes historical areas and diasporas strictly speaking, many places having both (e.g. Lebanon/Syria). There is a too thin line between both concepts. The template presents that well enough. People who care about the difference are already knowledgeable enough to make the difference themselves. It is definitely worth, though, to elaborate in article Armenians in Turkey that it is a population with a long local history. Place Clichy (talk) 09:10, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

"Everybody understands that concisely presenting Armenian population and Armenian diaspora throughout the world includes historical areas and diasporas strictly speaking, many places having both (e.g. Lebanon/Syria).": so then why keep an incorrect title? The cost of changing it is zero. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

The template should not be renamed. There is a very obvious difference between "Armenians" and the "Armenian diaspora", with the "Armenian diaspora" being WP:N enough for its own template. There is no need to unnecessarily over-complicate this. Archives908 (talk) 13:30, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not overcomplicated to change one word. Is your point that "OK Armenians in Turkey may not be considered part of the diaspora but let's keep it simple and keep the template as it is?"? I can understand this point of view, but templates are not exempt from requirements to follow RS so we can do better. (especially, crypto-Armenians in Western Armenia: which RS would dare to consider them part of the diaspora?) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:11, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

It is completely unnecessary to change one word. For the second time, "Armenians" and the "Armenian diaspora" are two distinct topics. The "Armenian diaspora", being one of the largest diasporas globally, far surpasses notability requirements for its own template. More importantly, not all Armenians are part of this vast diaspora. It is critical, therefore, to differentiate the two. Per WP:NAVBOX, the subject of a template should remain as coherent as possible, focusing on a single subject. Again, "Armenian diaspora" meets these qualifications. Archives908 (talk) 14:53, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand, I only asked:

1. Are Armenians in Turkey, Armenians in Istanbul and Crypto Armenians part of the "Armenian diaspora" according to RS?
2. Based on the above, should they be included in this template?

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:56, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

What do you think @Archives908? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:27, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Have you not read the below thread? Another editor (Place Clichy) already responded with rationale opposing your proposal and I fully agree with them. As such, no WP:CON has been attained. Archives908 (talk) 17:26, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Have you not read the above thread? I answered Place Clichy's comment: like you, I "fully agree with them" that the name is not perfect and that Armenians are indeed endogenous [rather indigenous?] to the territory of present-day Turkey, including Istanbul (I've just edited the template accordingly). That's why I offered alternative names (other options include "Armenian settlements", "Armenian population", "Armenian populations", etc.). Of course there's no consensus on changing the title, I've never pretended otherwise, that's why we're discussing. So, can you just please answer my question: Are Armenians in Turkey, Armenians in Istanbul and Crypto Armenians part of the "Armenian diaspora" according to RS? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:04, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Well it seems you were WP:BOLD and already moved Turkey/Istanbul to "Historic areas of Armenian settlement", unilaterally addressing your own concern, which, I also believe is an adequate and fair compromise. Bye bye :) Archives908 (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't that WP:BOLD as we first discussed and the three of us fully agreed that Armenians were indeed indigenous to the territory of present-day Turkey, including Istanbul.

Anyway, should I understand your lack of answer as silence is consent?

I still find it weird and disappointing (in addition to being obviously wrong) to have "Historic areas of Armenian settlement" such as Artsakh and Western Armenia (as well as "Historical Armenian population") under "Armenian diaspora". Especially at a time when some deny that Armenians were indigenous to these lands... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:02, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

While the comment is not wrong, and Armenians are indeed endogenous to the territory of present-day Turkey, including Istanbul, I believe that this understanding of the word diaspora is wrong in this context. It is useful to present together Armenian populations from everywhere in the world, concisely, in a navigation template. For Armenians as well as other peoples, you can argue endlessly which population constitutes a diaspora and which does not. Such a discussion is not really important. So of course Armenians in Turkey should be linked from the navigation template. Whether the template must be named Armenian diaspora, after all it is not a so bad name, although not perfect. Place Clichy (talk) 16:48, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed! Archives908 (talk) 18:19, 7 October 2023 (UTC)