Template talk:Ancient Athenian politicians

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Greece

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On 7 June 2023, it was proposed that this page be moved from Template:Ancient Athenian statesmen to Template:Ancient Athenian politicians. The result of the discussion was moved.

Requested move 7 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Per NPOV arguments (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 09:50, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Ancient Athenian statesmen → Template:Ancient Athenian politicians – Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 21#Category:Ancient Greek statesmen & Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2023 May 17#Ancient Greek statesmen renamed to 'politicians'. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:17, 7 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 04:57, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Why? A "politician" has connotations of a professional career holding or seeking elected office. Athenian officials were not elected and had no careers (indeed were forbidden from having careers). These are simply influential citizens who happen to speak up a lot during popular assemblies. Walrasiad (talk) 14:46, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lean oppose. "Politicians" sounds very modern; I don't recall encountering the term in relation to antiquity outside of Wikipedia, and its connotations are somewhat pejorative compared with the present title. P Aculeius (talk) 13:45, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

~~Oppose:~~ This template is for lauded ancient Athenian political operators, not any old politician, hence "statesman", which carries strongly positive connotations and a sense of esteem versus 'politician'. Also, Athenian politics was a very different animal from modern politics, and the terminology helps reflect this distinction. Statesmen is the more classical term, both linguistically, and empirically in the context. See Ngrams. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:00, 8 June 2023 (UTC) Support: Fine. Fair point about the proposed term being Greek. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: Category:Statesmen was deleted already in 2009 per non-neutral term--classify as Category:Politicians or Category:Diplomats). Iskandar323 saying that "statesman" carries strongly positive connotations and a sense of esteem versus 'politician' seems to confirm that we shouldn't use "statesman" per WP:NPOV. "Politicians" may sound very modern, but it is derived from the Ancient Greek adjective wikt:πολιτικός politikós, the origin of the English word "politician". If the term is to be applied to any ancient society, it is Ancient Athens/Greece. As Walrasiad noted, they were 'influential citizens'. That's why wikt:πολιτικός is derived from the Ancient Greek noun wikt:πολίτης polī́tēs meaning "citizen". Calling them "politicians" is much more authentic for Ancient Greek Athenian πολῖται politai ("citizens") engaged in τα πολιτικά ta politika ("politics", literally "the affairs of the polis, the city-state") than the non-neutral, subjective, Anglo-Latin term "statesman". And the two recent CfRs already confirmed we should rename all "Ancient Greek statesmen" to "Ancient Greek politicians". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 14:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.