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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 19:22, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

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Vespro della Beata Vergine

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Title page of the collection holding the 1610 Vespers
Title page of the collection holding the 1610 Vespers
  • Reviewed: to come
  • Comment: This is a unique piece of music, and it's hard to say so little about it ;) - The next Marian feast is 15 August, Assumption of Mary, but prep is full, and I believe that it deserves a pic (yes, you don't see details, but you see how elaborate it is). Next best date: 1 September, day of the dedication.

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk) and Thoughtfortheday (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 10:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC).

Gerda, I understand that you really want to show these hook facts and show how unique this piece of music is, but the hook as it stands sounds a bit too complicated and hard to read. People who read the hook but don't know little or even anything about the topic will find the hook hard to understand. The hook fact definitely has interest potential, it's just that it can probably be worded in a better way. @Yoninah: Maybe you can give some suggestions on how to reword the hook? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:13, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
Which part do you have difficulties with? It has an Italian title which needs explanation, causing the Marian feast days (we can't also explain what vespers is, not in 200 chars). It's greatest feature is a great variety of contrasting styles, which could perhaps be summarized in 1000 chars, so only the two most different are mentioned, the old Gregorian chant which is a cantus firmus throughout (but I tied to avoid another technical term) and the latest operatic virtousity and dramatic expression. I'd like to mention the 1 September dedication to the Pope for two reasons, to justify the date request (now that the feast day is already today, so too late) and to hint in a short way at the enormous prominence of the work. It's in a line with Bach's Christmas Oratorio and Verdi's Requiem, in scope and importance, - so can we please say a bit about why? Wording help welcome. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:11, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
To the uninitiated it sounds like word salad: it just feels a bit too overwhelming and hard to comprehend. I'm sure there's probably an alternative wording that could flow better and explain the intended meaning in simpler terms. I also have to note that the hook (when including the pictured) is over 220 characters long, and is more than 200 characters long when excluding it, so the current hook wouldn't be allowed anyway. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:04, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, it appears that the main hook fact here is that the composition was made for the Pope. If that's the point you want to explain, then how about:
It's a lot more concise and it explains the main idea in an easier to understand manner. If you still really wish to emphasize the September 1 part, then you can add "on this day in 1610" at the end of ALT1, though that would depend on whether or not the special occasion request would be granted.
On the other hand, if you instead want to focus on the Gregorian chants, there's:
ALT2 admittedly has a more limited audience than ALT1, but I'll leave it to you on what direction to go to. Combining both (as seen in ALT0) just makes the hook seem to lack focus and makes it difficult to understand. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:14, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
I feel misunderstood ;) - focus on Gregorian chant??? What was wrong in my wording that you'd think that? This is a serious question. ALT1: "Italian" is not needed, and "composer" redundant. It says nothing about the music, - others have called that kind of hook name-dropping. Please no. ALT2: same for the beginning, "the latest operatic style of his time" makes no sense without the year 1610, when opera was just invented, and he the composer of the first opera which is still played regularly today. His music in the vespers was almost revolutionary, in length, complexity, multitude of styles, and that's what I'd like to focus on. Wording help still wanted. Trying, but missing the Chant:
ALT3: ... that in September 1610, Claudio Monteverdi dedicated his Vespro della Beata Vergine (title page pictured) to Pope Paul V, a complex vespers composition for up to ten voices in which he expressed religious texts in the virtuoso style of the beginning opera?
Perhaps listen to this introduction a bit? A review is titled "stairway to heaven" (otherwise German). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:13, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Unfortunately Gerda, ALT3 is far beyond the character limit of 200 characters, and in any case has the same problem: trying to cram too much information into a single hook. Perhaps BlueMoonset could be of some help here with regards to hook wording? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT3 was meant to be a box of elements to build from.
ALT4: ... that on 1 September 1610, Monteverdi dedicated his Vespro della Beata Vergine (title page pictured) to Pope Paul V, a complex vespers composition which includes expressive operatic style?
ALT5: ... that in September 1610, Monteverdi dedicated his Vespro della Beata Vergine (title page pictured) to Pope Paul V, demonstrating a multitude of styles in extended music for vespers for up to ten voices?
I still hope others can do better. You did not answer how you arrived at "Gregorian chant" focus. I'm asking because a local newspaper did the same, and I blame myself, only don't know for what. Did you listen to music and introduction for a minute? Our local festival developed the habit of playing a Vespers to Mary each year, beginning in 2000, - Monteverdi's was played in 2000 and 2019, and four times in between, - it's just the Greatest. I plan to go for FA, but not until the date this year ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
ps: for entertainment: just the title is almost too long for DYK, "Mass for the Most Holy Virgin for six voices for church choirs, and vespers for several voices with some sacred songs, suitable for chapels and ducal chambers". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT4 and ALT5 sound fine, though I might need a second opinion on their suitability. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Hi Gerda Arendt and Narutolovehinata5, just a couple of suggestions on hooks, the first a slight re-ordering of ALT4, and the second a more major restructure:
ALT4a: ... that in September 1610, Monteverdi dedicated to Pope Paul V his Vespro della Beata Vergine (title page pictured), a complex vespers composition which included the newest operatic style?
ALT6: ... that Claudio Monteverdi’s Vespro della Beata Vergine (Vespers for the Blessed Virgin; title page pictured), dedicated to Pope Paul V on 1 September 1610, was in the latest operatic style?
In the original ALT4, I find it a bit disconcerting to have "a complex vespers composition which includes expressive operatic style?" coming after Pope Paul V - it sounds like it should be the pope who was a complex vespers composition - hence my suggested ALT4a. I think I prefer ALT4a to ALT6 if it will be featured on that date. Both have 187 characters. Cheers, RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:31, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the offer, Rebecca, striking ALT4 because your i better, but also ALT6, because to mention any one tyle i wrong, - every movement almot ha its own style, and ome have combined styles, and that enormous diversity is the essence of the piece, like showing off: I can do this, and that, ... - A musicologist and conductor said he performed it perhaps 200 times, and finds something new in every performance. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:34, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
No worries, Gerda Arendt. Just wondering though - you said "striking ALT4 because yours is better, but also ALT6", but it's ALT4a that you have struck? Is that what you intended? RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:32, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
no, thank you, corrected --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:17, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Rebecca, oh dear, missed a deadline:

ALT7: ... that in September 1610, Monteverdi dedicated to Pope Paul V his Vespro della Beata Vergine (title page pictured), a complex vespers composition which included the style of the emerging opera? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt, what a pity! It looks like this actually needs a full review, and a QPQ, as all the discussion has been about hooks, so far. It will presumably be on the next list of oldest nominations needing reviews! RebeccaGreen (talk) 00:13, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
I reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Tachibana Shrine. The article review should be fairly easy, after The Rambling Man did the GA review ;) - "Don't believe in miracles, rely on them". (Mascha Kaléko) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:17, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
No miracle today. I dropped the "1" from the hooks not yet struck, and hope for a pictured slot in September with 24 hours, not 12 hours in a first set of which Europeans will sleep for 8 hours ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:44, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Full review needed now that hooks are set. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:26, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: promoted to GA on 10 August, the date of nomination; pic not obviously sourced on Commons, but certainly looks old enough unless a peculiar pastiche; good to go with ALT7 then (the original hook also being more than comprehensible and compliant), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 00:14, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

  • Hi, I came by to promote ALT7, but the section "4 Laudate pueri" lacks a cite, and the September 1610 date doesn't have a cite; is that cited to the source in the next sentence? Could you also point out the hook fact about "emerging opera" in the article? Thanks, Yoninah (talk) 10:26, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
Will look, but not now, maybe tomorrow. I can only hope that Opera or Italian Opera have a decent source for what is basic knowledge, not specific to this article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:30, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I missed the section 4 missing cite; yes, the September citation is that half a sentence further on; there is citation for Orfeo, and per the Orfeo article that is the first/earliest currently performed, so periphrasis, synecdoche, etc, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 20:38, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
I added the cite I missed to Laudate pueri. I also linked to Origins of opera, - please pick a reference I should use. Bedtime. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:33, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
... but I also managed another ref for the 1 September --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:41, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Restoring tick (for offline ref) per Maculosae tegmine lyncis's review. Yoninah (talk) 19:20, 21 September 2019 (UTC)
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