Template:Did you know nominations/Torwali people
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: rejected by Yoninah (talk) 13:04, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Article is unstable due to ongoing edit warring
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Torwali people
- ... that the Torwali people inhabited the valley of the Swat River even before Buddhist era of the northwest Indian subcontinent? Source: "In Swat, seven languages are spoken. The major language is Pashto while Torwali, Gujri, Gawri, Qashqri, Ushojo and Badeshi are also spoken. Torwals are said to be one of the groups indigenous to the region, inhabiting the area before the Buddhist era."
Created by Anupam (talk). Self-nominated at 21:05, 3 December 2020 (UTC).
The article is long enough and new enough. I assume good faith on the offline sources. The information for the hook is directly cited. However, the lead needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD. I'm also fixing the hook as ALT0a: ... that the Torwali people inhabited the valley of the Swat River even before the Buddhist era of the northwest Indian subcontinent? SL93 (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- The hook goes back to the following quote: "Torwals are said to be one of the groups indigenous to the region, inhabiting the area before the Buddhist era" [1]. Some caution needs to be exercised about claims of such deep antiquity. Even if it weren't for the fact that it places the Torwalis into an era probably two millennia before any historical records about the people, and likely well before any historical records at all, the claim would still need to be reliably sourced by the standards for this topic: WP:HISTRS. Hearsay reported in the notes of a travel journalist doesn't come close to that.
The article's other sources are not offline, they're both very much online. I've managed to trace the first to JSTOR 29756645, though it has very little to say about the Torwalis and hasn't been much used in the article. The other, main, source is Zubair Torwali's 2015 article in an online-only journal, and it's available at academicjournals.org/journal/JLC/article-full-text/CBBA2D553114. Now, I haven't formatted that as a URL, because I wouldn't have been able to: academicjournals.org is on the external links blacklist, which you will get notified about any time you try to save an edit introducing a link to it (I don't know how that has escaped the notice of the article creator). The reason is that it's a suspected predatory journal. This needs to be sorted out – either the blacklisting wasn't correct in the first place (in which case the website will need to be unlisted), or alternative sources for the article will need to be found. Regardless, we can't promote to DYK content that's almost entirely based on a blacklisted source. – Uanfala (talk) 22:09, 24 December 2020 (UTC)- I’m glad that you mentioned that information about the sources, but I mentioned that they were offline sources because there was no such indication in the article and I didn’t expect such a long-time editor to not include actual links when they are available. SL93 (talk) 22:24, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- The hook goes back to the following quote: "Torwals are said to be one of the groups indigenous to the region, inhabiting the area before the Buddhist era" [1]. Some caution needs to be exercised about claims of such deep antiquity. Even if it weren't for the fact that it places the Torwalis into an era probably two millennia before any historical records about the people, and likely well before any historical records at all, the claim would still need to be reliably sourced by the standards for this topic: WP:HISTRS. Hearsay reported in the notes of a travel journalist doesn't come close to that.
- User:SL93, thank you for your comments. I was using offline versions of the references, not the ones that were linked above. I have found many other sources that discuss the Torwali people. If I remove the one in question, could this article still be promoted or has that ship sailed? I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks, AnupamTalk 01:08, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- Anupam For this to be approved, the hook source would need to be changed to a better one based on the concern raised by Uanfala as well as replacing the predatory journal sourcing with something reliable. SL93 (talk) 01:33, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- I see that the journal was replaced so that leaves one issue. I'm very hesistant to listen to the other issues raised by Uanfala because they admitted that they are not an expert on the topic. In response to any other issue besides the current reference, I would need an actual expert's opinion that agrees with the editor. SL93 (talk) 01:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- Dear User:SL93, thank you for your reply, as well as for having a look at the article again. If you are aware of another reviewer who could have a look at the article, or if you have suggestions on how I can improve it, I would be happy to work with you on this. With regards, AnupamTalk 02:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- The predatory journal has very much not been replaced (there are still over ten cites to it in the present version of the article). Also, I'm a bit puzzled by the reference to expertise. If such is required from an editor who points out basic sourcing problems with a text, then shouldn't the same also be asked of the editor who contributed that text? – Uanfala (talk) 05:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- OK, by now the article has been rewritten so it doesn't use the blacklisted journal any more, and the original hook has been abandoned. Therefore, the two concerns above have been addressed. There's still a dispute over the History section though, and that's currently being hashed out on the talk page. – Uanfala (talk) 02:15, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- The predatory journal has very much not been replaced (there are still over ten cites to it in the present version of the article). Also, I'm a bit puzzled by the reference to expertise. If such is required from an editor who points out basic sourcing problems with a text, then shouldn't the same also be asked of the editor who contributed that text? – Uanfala (talk) 05:32, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- Dear User:SL93, thank you for your reply, as well as for having a look at the article again. If you are aware of another reviewer who could have a look at the article, or if you have suggestions on how I can improve it, I would be happy to work with you on this. With regards, AnupamTalk 02:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- User:SL93, thank you for your comments. I was using offline versions of the references, not the ones that were linked above. I have found many other sources that discuss the Torwali people. If I remove the one in question, could this article still be promoted or has that ship sailed? I look forward to hearing from you soon. Thanks, AnupamTalk 01:08, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm calling for a new reviewer. You two can hash it out amongst yourselves. I refuse to keep track of whatever happens here, on the article talk page, and on both of your talk pages while also dealing with the article's constant edit history. SL93 (talk) 05:54, 25 December 2020 (UTC)- ALT1: ... that the tradition of telling folktales carries great importance in the culture of the Torwali people? Source: "Folktales play a critical role in the oral traditions of a community. These stories tell of the past of the community; its desires, how it deals with natural phenomena, and of course the social dialectics. They can also be good starting-points for further anthropological and linguistic research." AnupamTalk 06:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- ALT2: ... that the traditional music of the Torwali people is played using the sitar? Source: "Dwelling in an area famous for its natural beauty, the Torwali community has been overwhelmingly influenced by the visitors’ culture(s); and being unable to afford modern technology and outlets the music of Torwali is very prone to extinction. The main instruments played here are sitaar and pitcher." AnupamTalk 06:56, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
@Anupam and Uanfala: Because of the ongoing edit waring and neutrality concerns (H/t Fowler&fowler), I don't think we can accept this DYK at this time. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
