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Template:Did you know nominations/The Immaculate Conception of Los Venerables

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:08, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

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The Immaculate Conception of Los Venerables

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  • ... that The Immaculate Conception of Los Venerables (pictured) is exhibited at the Museo del Prado in Madrid, Spain, which was painted by a Spanish artist Bartolomé Esteban Murillo in c. 1678?
    • ALT1:... that the alternative name of The Immaculate Conception of Los Venerables (pictured) is "The Immaculate Conception of Soult" after Jean-de-Dieu Soult the Marshal who looted it from the Hospital de los Venerables? Source: "La relación de Soult con el Museo del Prado está motivada por el hecho de que algunas de las pinturas que fueron de su colección y que habían sido sustraídas en Sevilla han terminado formando parte de la pinacoteca madrileña. La primera de ellas es La Inmaculada Concepción de los Venerables, obra de Murillo, que había robado en la iglesia del hospital de dicho nombre en Sevilla y que se subastó en 1852 a la muerte del mariscal, y la adquirió el Musée du Louvre por 615 300 francos, la cifra más alta que hasta entonces se había pagado por una pintura. En 1940 el gobierno francés acordó con el español un trueque de obras de arte en el que se incluyó esta pintura que inmerecidamente se ha venido nombrando como «la Inmaculada Soult», sobrenombre indigno que debe ser sustituido por «la Inmaculada de los Venerables» en honor a su origen y en rechazo del infame robo perpetrado por el mariscal." Museo del Prado (in Spanish)

Created by JeBonSer (talk). Self-nominated at 04:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC).

  • The information in the article does not have inline citations;
  • The text requires a bit of work also:
  • there are constructions such as "commissioned to" that are not used in English
  • the "History" section is one very long sentence
  • I cannot understand the passage: "since in Spain it had spread extraordinarily since 16th century the devotion for the Immaculate Conception of Mary, being also said country the main defender of the mystery and the one that fought with greater insistence until it became one of the dogmas of the Catholic Faith, although it would not officially occur until the year 1854."
  • The "Description" section at times refers to the Virgin Mary in the masculine ("his feet ... his eyes")
  • I think a more intriguing hook is required. It is not interesting that a painting is hanging in a particular gallery
More than happy to take another look at this one if the above is addressed. Thanks - Dumelow (talk) 12:24, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
  • The article, at 1146 prose characters, is too short for DYK. The minimum is 1500 prose characters, so the article needs significant expansion. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I just discovered that JeBonSer had not been notified on their talk page about the issues with this nomination, so I have just done so. It has been over two weeks since they last edited on Wikipedia, and another DYK nomination has just been marked for closure due to a failure to respond. Allowing another seven days for a response, but if nothing is posted here or the article remains too short at the end of that period, the nomination will also be marked for closure. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Hi BlueMoonset. I didn't post on their talk page but I did ping them above on 5 March. Happy to pick this up again if they get back with the required article improvements - Dumelow (talk) 09:54, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Dumelow, JeBonSer has greatly expanded the article, which now more than meets DYK's length requirement. However, there are still three uncited paragraphs, and the prose is still problematic in places. A new hook has been provided. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:48, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
Hi JeBonSer. Thanks for improving the article. I've gone through it to try to make the text sound more natural but there were some sentences I didn't understand and I do not, alas, read Spanish. Could you take a look or perhaps pass it by somebody else for a second opinion? Further to this the main stumbling block here is a lack of WP:references - as a minimum there needs to be one at the end of each sentence. It'd be great to see this featured on the main page in a DYK but the improvements need to be made (and relatively quickly) to get it there - Dumelow (talk) 07:36, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
No, as a minimum there needs to be one reference in each paragraph. Johnbod (talk) 23:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)#
Thanks Johnbod, you are correct - I meant paragraph. Article at present just lacks a citation for "Soult left behind the frame of the painting which was preserved in Spain and was recently restored". It still needs work to the prose though, expecially the "Description" section - Dumelow (talk) 12:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Dumelow, there appears to have been a major copyedit on the article earlier this month. Can you please check to see whether the issues you raised were addressed by the copyedit? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:42, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
Hi BlueMoonset. The copy edits by LizzieMack have transformed this article. I think ALT0 is too boring, but like ALT1. I would suggest it is reworded to something like:
Which I think reads better and doesn't use "looted" which isn't mentioned in the article. I have AGFed on the foreign language sourcing but have one little doubt. The source uses only "la Inmaculada Soult" as the alternative name. Perhaps someone fluent in Spanish could confirm if this translates as "The Immaculate Conception of Soult" or is it just "The Immaculate Soult"? - Dumelow (talk) 10:53, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
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