Template:Did you know nominations/Salomée Halpir

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 ^talk 11:26, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Salomée Halpir

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~~... that despite, or perhaps due to, her being a poorly educated Christian woman in an Islamic country, Salomée Halpir became an accomplished 18th-century oculist?~~

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/William Meschin

Created by Leilaharris (talk), Renata3 (talk). Nominated by Renata3 (talk) at 19:26, 26 July 2013 (UTC).

The article is new enough and long enough. However, I find the hook to be thoroughly confusing. Why would her being a poorly educated Christian woman make it less likely that she would become an oculist (as suggested by the "despite" phrasing)? Likewise, why would that same status make her more likely to become an oculist (as suggested by the "perhaps due to" phrasing)? This statement is referenced to the Lovejoy book which is not available for preview through google books. Also, the article says she became a highly-accomplished physician, not that she became a highly-accomplished oculist. Please clarify these points. Cbl62 (talk) 01:17, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Um? Being a poorly educated Catholic female in a 18th-century Islamic country should be an obstacle to accomplishing pretty much anything. That part is very clearly sourced to article by Roczniak in JSTOR. The first page, available to anyone, talks about it. The "due to" is a bit later in the article (you can get it free if you register with JSTOR - that's what I did). She used her "novelty" as foreigner of different gender and religion to break social norms. I got an impression that the Islamic society did not know what to do with her so she did what she pleased ;) Attempted to clarify that a bit in the article. Re physician vs oculist: physician is a general term for any doctor, oculist is an old term for an eye doctor. No difference in meaning is intended by that. Renata (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I hear what you're saying, and she sounds like an interesting lady. But I really do think the proposed hook is clunky, contradictory, and confusing. Would you be open to suggestions for an alternate hook? Perhaps something along these lines:

ALT1: ... that Salomée Halpir, a Lithuanian Catholic born in 1718, learned medicine from a doctor she married at age 14, and later became physician to the Sultan's harem in the Constantinople? Cbl62 (talk) 03:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Ok, but I have to rephrase the hook: she was not a Lithuanian, she was Polish-Lithuanian which is a hornets nest and might as well be precise about the sultan:

ALT2: ... that Salomée Halpir, a Catholic born in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1718, learned medicine from a doctor she married at age 14, and later became physician to the harem of Sultan Mustafa III of the Ottoman Empire? Renata (talk) 11:02, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I think alt 2 is much improved, but it is now too long at 217 characters. My alt 1 was already pushing the limit at 182 characters. More precision is good, but not sure you need the sultan's name. How about this shortened version:

ALT3: ... that Salomée Halpir, a Polish-Lithuanian Catholic born in 1718, learned medicine from a doctor she married at age 14, and later became physician to the harem of the Ottoman Empire's Sultan?

Ah, crap. I knew I was forgetting something! :) I really don't like Polish-Lithuanian as you won't find a cite for that and it's just asking for an edit war with nationalists. Ergo (190 characters):

ALT4: ... that Salomée Halpir, a Catholic born in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1718, learned medicine from a doctor she married at age 14 and later treated the harem of the Ottoman Empire's Sultan? Renata (talk) 18:27, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Another point for clarification. The article says in the lede that she broke with social norms by not raising children. The article then goes on to say she had at least three children. Did she bear the children but then not raise them? This is another point that I found confusing. Cbl62 (talk) 01:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, she pretty much did not raise them. She let her lover starve one of them to death. The publisher of her memoir straight-up called her a "bad mother". Renata (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

There are now some alts that I think are workable, especially alt 4. Since I worked with Renata in coming up with the new hook, a fresh review appears to be in order before this can be promoted. Cbl62 (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment. I was going to promote this entry but I wasn't convinced that ALT4 is concise nor clear enough in terms of phrasing. The year that she was born in and the age that she married her husband is certainly relevant, but the hook should focus solely on the interesting fact to draw the readers in. And the readers may wonder why does it matter that she is a Christian? Perhaps it's better to mention Ottoman Empire is Islamic for better contrast, and to show that we are not making any assumptions. I've proposed an alternative pending approval:

ALT5 ... that Salomée Halpir, a Catholic woman from Lithuania, learned medicine from a doctor she married and eventually became a physician in the harem of Islamic Ottoman Sultan? Alex Shih ^Talk 22:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

- I honestly don't care anymore. Whatever, and I won't make the mistake of nominating anything for DYK ever again. Renata (talk) 02:28, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
Could someone take another look at this? Renata prepared a pretty decent article about an interesting person. Given her frustration with the DYK process, as expressed in her last comment above, it would be nice to see her work encouraged rather then discouraged. Since I participated in drafting the alt hooks, I don't think it appropriate for me to approve them. If I were to try to distill the hook (trying to be consistent to Renata's wishes and still keeping the hook under 200 characters), it would be something like:

alt 6 ... that Salomée Halpir, a Lithuanian Catholic born in 1718, learned medicine from a doctor she married at age 14 and eventually became a physician to the harem of the Ottoman Empire's Sultan? Cbl62 (talk) 16:17, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Nominator apparently has left DYK. Does anyone want to take over here? --PFHLai (talk) 03:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nominator withdraws the nomination. Can you just close this and move on? Thanks, Renata (talk) 14:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The reason Renata left DYK is frustration over this hook. I proposed an alt 6 hook back on Aug. 11. That hook has simply been waiting for someone to give it a look. I've verified that the article is in generally good shape. Can't someone take a quick look at alt 6. Cbl62 (talk) 15:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Renata: I will make a deal with you. If you will approve my DYK nom I will approve this one. I am joking, but that would be funny. Please don't be discouraged. At least the DYK nomination process improved both of our articles. :) Mistercontributer (talk) 01:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Basing this on Cbl62's review, I can approve the hook (Alt6). It is interesting and suitable. Miyagawa (talk) 17:43, 29 September 2013 (UTC)