Template:Did you know nominations/James E. Dull

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 01:20, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

James E. Dull

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~~... that Dean James E. Dull was instrumental in developing and implementing plans for the peaceful integration of Georgia Institute of Technology in 1961 which was achieved without incident?~~

Created/expanded by Mistercontributer (talk). Self nominated at 22:49, 5 July 2013 (UTC).

Review in process. Seems a fine article, and himself a very fine man. Please be nice to me: this is my first DYK review, and I might be doing it all wrong. Peter aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:53, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Article #1: New = yes; #2: Long enough = yes; #2: Within policy = yes, though the referencing could be tidied up; #4: BLPs are tagged = yes, not a BLP itself, and there appear to be no corollary BLP problems
Hook #1: Format = yes; #2: Content = not sure. The hook would appear to invite comparisons with the desegregation of other tertiary institutions in the South, perhaps inadvertently: "peaceful" would appear to be a problematic word in this context, as it suggests that there may have been less than peaceful integration in other colleges, and the implicit comparison may render the hook without full referencing. I would suggest it be re-written to focus on Georgia Tech itself. Am I being too picky?
Other #1: PQP = I don't know. Apparently there's a link you can click on to check this, but I don't know where to find it. #2: Images = yes. They're all from Commons, maybe a size-tweak may be needed.

Am I doing OK so far? --Shirt58 (talk) 15:05, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Did you mean "QPQ"? If so, there's a link at the top of this nom template. Anyway, QPQ check on toolserver says Miscontributer has had only one previous DYK and does not require QPQ. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing this DYK nomination. With regards to the proposed hook, I suggest removing the word "peaceful" to resolve the concerns described above. This article has other potential hooks, such as Dean Dull's purchase of the Ramblin' Wreck car, but I thought the proposed hook would be more interesting for the readers. Mistercontributer (talk) 15:55, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe Shirt58 isn't finished with the review. I don't see any tick that says conclusively what the status is on his/her review. I don't see that Shirt58 ran a copyvio check (also link above on this template), so maybe the review isn't finished?. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The following is proposed revised hook:

ALT1: ... that Dean James E. Dull was instrumental in developing and implementing plans for the integration of Georgia Institute of Technology in 1961, which was achieved without incident?

Please let me know if this proposed revised hook will work? - Mistercontributer (talk) 20:23, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Needs a full review, to check first-time reviewer, do a close paraphrasing check, and make sure ALT1 is sourced and addresses issues found with the original hook. (I added a comma to ALT1.) BlueMoonset (talk) 03:57, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I haven't checked the entire article, but much of the article's "Georgia tech" section looks to be a copyvio/close paraphrase of this source, with whole phrases and sentences lifted almost verbatim from the source but just placed in a different order. Gatoclass (talk) 11:53, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. Much of the information in this section include facts which are difficult to re-word so it does not resemble the source material, such as numerical statistics. However, I will revise this section to paraphrase a little bit more to avoid any potential problems. Thanks again Mistercontributer (talk) 01:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem, but before you do, I suggest reading WP:PARAPHRASE if you haven't already done so. Gatoclass (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Please let me know if the revisions made have resolved the concerns described above. Also, please let me know if any additional issues need to be addressed within this article. Thanks Mistercontributer (talk) 21:43, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

OK. I read the whole damn thing, and almost all the references. Mistercontributer, reference more properly please next time: giving four references for one composite paragraph is NOT helpful. I trimmed some content, and rewrote a couple of things that weren't great OR were copied verbatim from the references--yes, there was some left there.
One more thing, though. I don't like this hook: shorter is better, say the DYK requirements, and for once those make sense. So I'm going to propose a different one, below, and need another reviewer (or maybe User:Shirt58 can come by again? Here's the thing: I don't agree that "peaceful" necessarily implies a comparison. It's merely another word for "without incident", but it's just one and requires no grammatical function words to connect it. BTW, if the case needs to be made that it was indeed "peaceful" compared to others, well, it's practically common knowledge that integration in Alabama and Arkansas was not without incident, to put it mildly--and every time I go to the library I see Gov. Wallace's name on one of the buildings. Anyway, see my hook below. Drmies (talk) 01:51, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

ALT2... that Dean James E. Dull was instrumental in the peaceful racial integration of the Georgia Institute of Technology in 1961?

What Drmies said, and my sincere apologies. I'm truly sorry I borked up this DYK nomination with all my nit-picking. --Shirt58 (talk) 12:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment: I took a look at this with "fresh eyes". I believe that the ALT2 hook suggested by Drmies is supported by sources, but in the article the relevant content is not properly supported by cited sources. I see indication in a source that the university president credited Dull with a major role in peaceful integration, but I don't get that from the article. Also, I don't see sufficient reference support for the article's statement that "Dull was instrumental with developing and implementing the integration plans"; this was something he said in his oral history interview, but I don't see an indication that anybody other than the article subject substantiated that claim. It may be necessary to revise the article to indicate that this was "according to Dull".

More explicit footnoting would help a lot. As Drmies says, it's not a good idea to bundle several references at the end of a paragraph when each reference provides support for a different part of the paragraph. --Orlady (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback regarding this article and DYK nomination. I also appreciate the time spent by others reviewing this article and DYK nomination. I am OK with the proposed ALT2 hook. I revised the wording in the article to match the proposed ALT2 hook to address the concerns listed above. I also made revisions to this article to address the reference placement issue. I will be more careful with both the close paraphrase issue and reference placement issue in the future. Please let me know if the revisions made have resolved the concerns described above. Also, please let me know if any additional issues need to be addressed within this article. Thanks - Mistercontributer (talk) 02:49, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I added a few more references to provide additional support for the proposed ALT2 hook and related content in the article. Please let me know if any additional issues need to be addressed within this article? - Mistercontributer (talk) 01:42, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

As another update, I revised the article to add more details which are consistent with the cited sources with regards to integration. Please provide feedback regarding these changes if possible. Thanks - Mistercontributer (talk) 10:45, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Those changes helped. I've edited that section of the article further so that it describes what Dull did (as described in multiple sources), instead of just generalizing that he "was instrumental". This is going to need someone else to review it. --Orlady (talk) 22:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Article is new enough, long enough, well sourced. Copyvio problems have been addressed. ALT2 is fine (although I've changed "integration" to read "racial integration", and added a "the"). No QPQ necessary. DoctorKubla (talk) 15:05, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for approving! Also, thanks to everyone who helped review this DYK nomination and worked to improve this article. I will apply what I learned throughout this process to avoid similar problems with future DYK nominations. Thanks again :) Mistercontributer (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2013 (UTC)