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Template:Did you know nominations/Patrick Lange (conductor)

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by  — Amakuru (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Patrick Lange (conductor)

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  • Reviewed: to come Yang Naisi
  • Comment: best on his birthday, 12 April

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 22:07, 3 April 2019 (UTC).

  • New enough, well written and referenced, article content and hook checks out from the references. I've made some minor tweaks. A few comments/questions: what is the commented out text block in the middle? I would also strongly recommend replacing "GMD" in the hook either with the German term, or with its English translation. QPQ review is also not done yet. Constantine ✍ 11:52, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
Thank you! The text was meant to be translated or not, - I removed it for now - couldn't find a source, but probably will when trying harder. Will review later today, - just began an article. GMD is a well-known abbreviation (almost never spelled out). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:04, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I know it, for one, but I am the kind of person who has tickets for the Musikverein tomorrow ;). I very much doubt the average reader will know it. Constantine ✍ 12:08, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
We have a link for those who don't know it. I think GMD reads more smoothly and less pompous in English than Generalmusikdirektor, and I never trust a translation to really mean the same. The leader of the NYPhil is not called general music director, to my knowledge. Congrats to the tickets. The article about a soprano who sang in Vienna a lot is now more stable, I may review after some RL. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:56, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
No, but "general music director" is comprehensible even without further context; and hooks being as short as they are, we really should try to avoid having the readers click through merely to understand what they are about. I myself get this feedback in my own nominations, and I do see the point. Constantine ✍ 13:09, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
While I see the point, my point is that Lange has a short name, and the theatre a long one, and if we add a long title, who will click on the conductor? Without the link, I'd agree, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:12, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
We're running out of time, have it your way:
ALT1: ... that Patrick Lange conducted Tannhäuser and Arabella when he became Generalmusikdirektor of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden in 2017?
Constantine, ping. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:02, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
QPQ done, so this is good to go. Constantine ✍ 20:35, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but I fail to see why anyone would click on this hook fact. A musical director starts working in a theatre and conducts two operas. So? And I would call him the "musical director". Our readers are English-speaking. Yoninah (talk) 20:53, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I am not of the view that DYK hooks need to be unusual facts; DYK exists to promote otherwise unknown/obscure articles, and this qualifies under this heading. On the title, I agree. Constantine ✍ 21:04, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • @Cplakidas: well, I think you should be more aware of hook interest, because the people at WP:ERRORS have been very quick to pull hooks for lack of the same. Yoninah (talk) 21:16, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I can't please all. The original hook which has no Generalmusikdirektor and is approved. When I used the term to please the reviewer, I changed the order. The key fact is that he became GMD in Wiebaden, but I wanted to add some music, which also shows his musical taste. Just saying someone achieved a position - even a powerful position, and actually more than just a music director, and for him the first time - seems nothing personal. If it helps we can add his amazing young age. Open to suggestions, and wording skills I don't have. - I have good relations to ERRORS, btw, and am unafraid. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:27, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Oof, that's over 200 char. But do you like the direction? Yoninah (talk) 21:36, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps ALT2a ... that Patrick Lange received conducting instruction at age 12, became chief conductor of the Komische Oper Berlin at 31, and general music director of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden at 38? This checks in at 197 chars. Constantine ✍ 21:43, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
197 characters still seems a bit too long and in any case falls under the discretionary limit How about: ALT2b ... that Patrick Lange received conducting instruction at age 12, became a chief conductor at 31, and a general music director at 38? Personally I feel that readers might be more interested in the ages than the names of the institutions themselves. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:53, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree with the sentiment raised above by Yoninah. I don't really how a conductor conducting is hooky. Isn't that their job? That would be saying something like "... when Aaron Rodgers became quarterback for the Green Bay Packers, he played at Lambeau Field?" or "... that Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales is a Wikipedia editor?". Kind of a the sky is blue case. There are other possible things from the article that could work as hooks, since I really doubt that "did you know that conductor A conducted work Z" wordings by themselves are hooky. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Trying alternate suggestions, that might appeal to non-classical music fans too:
ALT3 ... that among the musicals Patrick Lange has conducted is Stephen Sondheim's A funny thing happened on the way to the Forum ?
(Proposing this one seems the title of the musical itself seems pretty funny)
ALT4 ... that Patrick Lange was a conductor by the age of 16?
(You mentioned that you wanted to emphasize his "amazing young age", and being a conductor at such a young age sounds like an interesting enough hook)
Let's see if these would work. (Comment: this reply was made before Yoninah made her suggestion above, but couldn't be saved due to technical issues; I am personally fine with ALT2 and Constantine's variation). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
  • I also have to note that two of the awards listed in the Awards section are unreferenced. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
Late to the party, and may I still say something? To mention 3 times how young he was for something seems boring to me, sorry. Just the last feat implies the others. How do you get to 38 years? Born 1981, beginning 2017/18 season would be 36 for me, but my math is not good. Call it OWN, but I like to mention 1) some music for a musician, 2) my memories. I heard him with Arabella, and it was excellent. I'll do something about the awards, but am too tired right now, same for a new wording. Help? Or wait, please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
New day, and a day I met someone in the morning who asked "Did I really waste all those years arguing about that?" So while I feel like arguing I'll swallow most of that. I thought that this time - for a change - I suggested an easy to grasp short hook, following the line of ".. that when L. assumed his leadership position, he focused on T and A?", happy that T and A were both brief. I understand that the kind of leadership position wasn't spelled out in the hook, thinking a link would do, and we argued about how to spell it out. I also failed to mention the unusually early date of assuming leadership. I don't want to waste time on discussing proposals which rest on just quirky-ness, such as the funny title of a piece. This is a living person to be honoured on his birthday, - imagine you'd be his grandmother, what would you like to read?
ALT4: ... that Patrick Lange became general music director of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden in 2017 at age 36?
ALT5: ... that when Patrick Lange became general music director of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden at age 36, he conducted Tannhäuser and Arabella?
ALT6: ... that when Patrick Lange became general music director of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden at age 36, he conducted Wagner's Tannhäuser recorded live?
ALT7: ... that when Patrick Lange became general music director of the Hessisches Staatstheater Wiesbaden at age 36, he conducted a staging of Arabella set in Nazi Germany?
... not to mention the filmed sex scene in the latter performance. The Arabella singer of the performance I saw (as part of the IMW) made it to the DYKSTATS, btw, in yellow with a smile. He certainly will not, but also wouldn't saying he was so-and-so young 3 times, imho. We could show the image of his workplace, but did so already for Siegfried Köhler. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I now added refs for the awards. Looking for them, I found that his contract was extended, and that he plans Tristan und Isolde (again Wagner) and Der Rosenkavalier (again Strauss) for the upcoming 125-anniversary season. I don't want to mention future, but think T and A can really be seen as kind of program, not just some arbitrary operas. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:53, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Of the options mentioned above, ALT4 is probably the best option. I'm very sorry Gerda, but I personally think that readers would be more interested about his age than him conducting certain works. As such, I regret to say that I am striking ALT5 to 7; they simply do not address the concerns raised above about "conductor conducting work X". In addition, speaking as a layman, getting a position at 36 doesn't really sound impressive, the one about him receiving conducting instructions at 16, however. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:38, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • After giving this some thought, and considering that ALT4 ultimately isn't really a good hook either, I have decided to mark this nomination for closure. Based on the discussions here, none of the nominator's suggestions have been considered suitable, and suggestions for compromise hooks have been rejected. Considering that there doesn't seem to be much else in the article that could be used, and factoring in the deadlock here, there ultimately does not appear to be a way to move forward that would reach common agreement. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:10, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
    • I object to this premature closure; not least as the nomination was marked as "good to go" by Constantine on 8 April. Also, we have two Alt4 suggestions. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:15, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
There were objections to the hooks that were initially approved by Constantine, and Constantine's subsequent suggestions were rejected by the nominator. At the very least, this is not "good to go" at this time. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 17:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
I am sorry about the wrong numbering, leading to 2 ALT4, striking one for clarity, and reopening ALT5. We have thus 3 hooks to look at, ALT4, ALT5 and the original. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Personally, I like ALT2b. If you want to go with the general music director angle, could you pipe the name to "a German state opera"? Then non-Germans will know it has some importance. Yoninah (talk) 19:04, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
It's better than nothing. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:07, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
As someone with a limited interest in conducting or German music, I think I would agree with Yoninah on ALT2b. I think specifically the age 12 sticks out to me as interesting. I am assuming that is a young age to start conducting but please correct me if I am wrong.HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came to help finish things up. I reviewed the article and don't find the age 12 part in the source given. If another source could be found, we could run with:
  • ALT2b: ... that Patrick Lange, who received his first conducting instructions at age 12, became chief conductor of the Komische Oper Berlin at age 31 and general music director of a German state opera at 36?
  • If not, I don't know what else will work. Yoninah (talk) 22:53, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
It would have worked, but at 198 characters it might be a bit too long. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:36, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
ALT2c: ... that Patrick Lange, who received first conducting instructions at age 12, became general music director of the Wiesbaden State Opera at age 36?
I don't think 31 and 36 is enough of a difference to mention both, but chief conductor and "general music director" IS a big difference, the latter has much more responsibility, which I don't think readers will know without a link. It's music director, not musical director, sorry that I noticed only now, - "Musical director" is ambiguous and might also mean a director who is musical, or a person who directs a musical, - see opera directors. Finally, KOS is just one opera house of three in Berlin, while Wiesbaden is the leading house for the state of Hesse, running an international festival, - no pipe to an unspecific "a theatre" please. I englishified the name, trying to be accomodating. (Still miss music.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
The part about him receiving conducting instructions at 12 is still unreferenced. The only one I can find is this, at "klassik.com" - not sure how reliable that is... it's possible they just lifted the line about him conducting at twelve from the de.wiki article, which has no citation for that.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:52, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
I have put an alternative hook into Template:Did you know/Queue/1, Gene Ritchie Monahan, for tomorrow's set, since this isn't finished yet. But if agreement is found in the next 15 hours then ping me or another admin and we can slot it back in. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:02, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Amakuru, I searched now and found a ref for what he did at ages 12 and 16, but not quite what the article said, so changed that, and suggest
ALT2d: ... that Patrick Lange, who decided to be conductor at age 12 and conducted a musical at age 16, has become general music director of the Wiesbaden State Opera at age 36? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:05, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
Amakuru, that's fine. Any reviewer perhaps??? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
If someone signs it off, I can promote it.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:28, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. @Amakuru: ready for promotion to the queue. Yoninah (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
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