Jump to content

Template:Did you know nominations/Nocturnes (Debussy)

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by BlueMoonset (talk) 17:22, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Nocturnes (Debussy)

(
)
  • --... that the third of three Nocturnes for orchestra by Claude Debussy requires a women's chorus singing like sirens, without words? Source: several--

5x expanded by Chuckstreet (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 21:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC).

  • DYK check says 7X growth within a week of the nomination, complete rewrite as far as I can tell. Hook is ~127 chars and sourced on two different lines. Earwig says it's 78.8% likely a copyvio. This is mostly due to long quotes from the identified URL and some sections that aren't quotes but have similar word choices. I'd suggest the expander/nominator see if they can address this. Nominator took care of QPQ. I personally think the connection between Whistler and the musical work is more interesting than the chorus singing without words, but that's me. dm (talk) 17:50, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
  • You meen blocked. Yes. Did you see that Dmadeo and I have a lengthy discussion on my talk. Question is if one of us - or you? - is willing to look for the close paraphrases and fix them. I said I would but not now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:42, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Yes, blocked, for sockpuppetry. Hower I was quoting dm in this discussion, Debussy Nocturnes DYK nomination. I was trying to bring some discussion here to move this along. --evrik (talk) 21:40, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
We don't need discussion but someone to fix close paraphrasing. Will you? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:23, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
I had a look. I removed some paraphrasing; the remaining Earwig objections are quotes (presumably in translation from French) of Debussy and assorted commentators, probably not substantial enough to be copyvio, but the fact that the selection of quotes is too similar to that used in the first source may be. HLHJ (talk) 20:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
Thank you, that is a great gift! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Think there are still some places where the wording is too close to that of the source. For example, compare "these three orchestral pieces were giving him even more trouble" with "these three orchestral pieces were giving him more trouble". Nikkimaria (talk) 01:35, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
  • I have looked through this with earwig, and there still is some close paraphrasing. I had thought it was okay. I'm going to let someone else pass this. --evrik (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
Mea culpa; I found two more significant-looking paraphrases amid all the Debussy quotes (including the one about trouble). Rephrased them (see article edit history). If someone with fresh eyes would read the article and then the sources, it might help. As I said, I'm not sure if the quotes are OK; Debussy died over a century ago, but the translator might not have. On Léon Vallas' 1926 biography, we still have seven years to go before he is 70 years dead, and if the translator is Dr. Richard E. Rodda, he is presumably still alive and the translation is in-copyright. A translation was made in in 1933; it's the source for some of the quotes in the article, and as it's PD I replaced another translation from an unknown source with its translation (Rodda seems to use this translation, but does not cite any of his translations). I am unable to trace the source of the translations of the quotations I have tagged with "clarify" tags", and the "that kind of music" and "pretty much finished" ones, which I think are too short to worry about copyvio. I found some verification problems, including problems with the factual accuracy, so I think this needs a fair bit more work. HLHJ (talk) 04:18, 21 December 2019 (UTC)
  • There are eight "citation needed" templates and six "clarification needed" templates. Until they are dealt with in some manner, this is not ready for a new reviewer. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
    I'm aware of the tags but know little about the content, and am off to vacation. Perhaps dubious facts could just be omitted? I saw tags for the tempo markings which would simply be in a score?? I removed a tag for "2 viollins, viola, cello, double bass" which is simply the most conventional string scoring there is. Perhaps others are of the same "quality" ...? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:22, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I have reviewed the citations for quotes credited to the O'Brien translation. Several weren't in that source, and I've left notes next to the citation needed tags if I found hints about possible sources. If I can make some time this week I will try to review some more citation needed tags. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 17:40, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I've now reviewed pretty much all the quotes in an attempt to confirm sources. I think I've disentangled the O'Brien translation (1933) of Vallas, and Vallas (1958). Search suggests that "Brook" is the source for several of the quotes, but I don't have access to a print copy; if someone else has access and can double check those citations, that would be great. Also, the Tempo markings are still tagged and need to be confirmed (presumably against an edition of the score such as Herlin 2000.) I updated a couple of things based on recent sources. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 04:46, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
  • The last items that need citations appear to be things from the score. Personally, I don't think we need citations on those lines, but does anyone have the score? --evrik (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
    Everybody. External links, IMSLP. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:04, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
  • The "citation needed" templates have been taken care of; the movement names are cited to the IMSLP facsimile of the 1930 revised edition. Pinging evrik and Narutolovehinata5 in the hopes that one of them will be able to approve this; if not, a new reviewer is welcome to step in. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 23:35, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
I'll let another editor review this, my only role here was to ping previous people involved for updates on progress. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:54, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
It looks as if the hook fact was removed from the article. I believe it's from this quote which can be found in early January versions of the article: Léon Vallas' biography concludes: "The finale 'Sirens', which includes women's chorus though they sing without text – Reidgreg (talk) 22:17, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
The hook fact seemed so easy because you can hear it. But as we need it in writing: the LA ref has "In the case of “Sirènes,” he struggled especially with the women’s chorus included in the movement, tweaking the music to achieve a smoother blend of voices and orchestra. This instrumental use of voices is just one of the remarkable traits of the Nocturnes." and more. I just don't know how to paraphrase it and where to include it in the article. Anybody? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:43, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
Okay, I added it to the fourth paragraph of §Completion and further revision. – Reidgreg (talk) 17:52, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
Alt Hook 1 (minor rewording to initial hook): ... that the third of three Nocturnes for orchestra by Claude Debussy requires a women's chorus to sing wordlessly like sirens? Source: several
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Nocturnes_(Debussy)&oldid=940946918"