Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Ryan (academic)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:12, 31 March 2016 (UTC)
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Mary Ryan (academic)
[edit]- ... that Professor Mary Ryan earned her BA from the Royal University of Ireland, though rules forbade her attending University classes?
- ALT1:... that Mary Ryan, first woman professor in Ireland or Britain, was forbidden to attend University lectures, but graduated after passing the Royal University of Ireland's examinations?
Created by Antiqueight (talk). Self-nominated at 19:12, 10 March 2016 (UTC).
- Comment: QPQ not required. Nominator's 2nd DYK nomination. SusunW (talk) 19:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
- New enough, long enough (2185 characters), neutrally written, both proposed ALTs check out ("these islands" in source means Ireland and Britain according to British Isles naming dispute.) I added a second ref to an existing source to ensure that all sentences involved in the hooks were directly cited. The image (which by the clothing may date to her matriculation in 1895) is marked Fair-use and for her page only. I believe that that it is acceptable to use it on her page, but not for the DYK. (If I'm wrong about that, please correct me.) Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 03:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
However, there's a close paraphrasing issue that needs to be addressed: "she had a reputation for sending her students to postgraduate in the sorbonne and was awarded..." is awkward and too close to the source, so needs reworking. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 03:55, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Fixed - thanks for pointing that out - I'd missed it. As for the photo- I believe that since the DYK isn't for the photo it is ok to have fair use photo on the page. If it was pointing to the photo that would be an issue. Not certain though so, anyone with better info please comment. ☕ Antiqueight haver 12:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Now good to go; I agree that my understanding is that since the image is NOT being used for the DYK, everything is fine. Mary Mark Ockerbloom (talk) 15:28, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
- Antiqueight "Ryan gained her Bachelor of Arts degree in 1895 from the Royal University of Ireland." doesn't seem to check out with the source. My understanding is that she studied (or rather didn't in this case) at Cork, but RUI awards the degrees. Unfortunately the source doesn't explain this. Also whose exams were they? Cork's or RUI's? The article just states "the exams" and that's before RUI is even mentioned, yet the hook is stating that the exams are RUI's. Either more sources are needed to pull this together or the hooks need to be rephrased to match up with article and source. Jolly Ω Janner 07:04, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll re read the article to see what is unclear - she wasn't able to attend the university in Cork, or Dublin but she was able to sit the exams. So she went to St Angela's to learn and was awarded the degree by sitting the exams in the RUI. There were no women's universities - it was part of the long struggle for women to get a university education. ☕ Antiqueight haver 10:30, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have re read and I don't understand the concern. The source seems pretty clear to me including "In later life, Mary Ryan recalled that the only contact she had with the University as an undergraduate was sitting the BA honours examinations in what she described as the hugely intimidating halls in Earlsfort Terrace Dublin." ☕ Antiqueight haver 11:24, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not meaning to butt in, but the Harford/Rush does explain this. p 11-12] RUI was solely an examining body and degree awarding body. It was not a teaching university....It admitted women to degrees...exclusion from lectures. It goes on on page 13 to say that women were expected to source their own teaching without support from the university. Hope that helps. SusunW (talk) 15:22, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- The second paragraph in early life and education is hard to follow. It should probably start off with the last sentence, because this explains St Angela's College being referred to as a university. The first use of "the University" is rather puzzling, since up until reading that, the only mention of a university was of University College Cork in the lead. I'm sure that the hook is valid, but it becomes difficult to verify when the facts are not displayed in the most clear way possible. Jolly Ω Janner 20:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Does that help? ☕ Antiqueight haver 20:59, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've restructured the paragraph. Please let me know if this new structure creates any ambiguity or factual errors or if you think it's just not as clear. Jolly Ω Janner 21:15, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I thought I had replied. It is grand. Thanks. ☕ Antiqueight haver 06:23, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've restructured the paragraph. Please let me know if this new structure creates any ambiguity or factual errors or if you think it's just not as clear. Jolly Ω Janner 21:15, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Does that help? ☕ Antiqueight haver 20:59, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- The second paragraph in early life and education is hard to follow. It should probably start off with the last sentence, because this explains St Angela's College being referred to as a university. The first use of "the University" is rather puzzling, since up until reading that, the only mention of a university was of University College Cork in the lead. I'm sure that the hook is valid, but it becomes difficult to verify when the facts are not displayed in the most clear way possible. Jolly Ω Janner 20:37, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not meaning to butt in, but the Harford/Rush does explain this. p 11-12] RUI was solely an examining body and degree awarding body. It was not a teaching university....It admitted women to degrees...exclusion from lectures. It goes on on page 13 to say that women were expected to source their own teaching without support from the university. Hope that helps. SusunW (talk) 15:22, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have re read and I don't understand the concern. The source seems pretty clear to me including "In later life, Mary Ryan recalled that the only contact she had with the University as an undergraduate was sitting the BA honours examinations in what she described as the hugely intimidating halls in Earlsfort Terrace Dublin." ☕ Antiqueight haver 11:24, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
- I'll re read the article to see what is unclear - she wasn't able to attend the university in Cork, or Dublin but she was able to sit the exams. So she went to St Angela's to learn and was awarded the degree by sitting the exams in the RUI. There were no women's universities - it was part of the long struggle for women to get a university education. ☕ Antiqueight haver 10:30, 24 March 2016 (UTC)