Template:Did you know nominations/Known unto God

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 20:32, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Known unto God

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"Known unto God" on a gravestone

... that the epitaph Known unto God, which appears on more than 212,000 Commonwealth war graves (example pictured), was selected by the poet Rudyard Kipling whose own son was killed during the First World War? "It is the epitaph Rudyard Kipling advised the Imperial War Graves Commission to adopt in 1917 to mark the graves of soldiers whose remains could not be identified. It is inscribed on the headstones of more than 212,000 Commonwealth soldiers." (Australian Herald Sun) "John Kipling's body was not found." (BBC News)

Reviewed: to follow

Moved to mainspace by Dumelow (talk). Self-nominated at 12:15, 13 December 2018 (UTC).

Interesting, on good sources, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed, however doesn't show much in small size. The standard image for a grave might work better, and also be more typical. In the article, I'd have some images larger to show the phrase better. In the hook, I'd prefer to drop "own" which also isn't in the article. You could also first speak about Kipling and then mention the number. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Gerda Arendt, thanks for the review. I have now carried out a QPQ at Template:Did you know nominations/Orange-breasted bunting. Happy for any of the images in the article to be used with this hook (or none). A couple of ALTs based on your suggestions follow, but I prefer the wording of the original - Dumelow (talk) 13:26, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

ALT1: ~~... that after his son's death in the First World War the poet Rudyard Kipling selected the epitaph Known unto God, which now appears on more than 212,000 Commonwealth war graves?~~
ALT2: ... that the epitaph Known unto God, which appears on more than 212,000 Commonwealth war graves (example pictured), was selected by the poet Rudyard Kipling whose son was killed during the First World War?

Thank you for the ALTs, the white image and the qpq! I struck ALT1, because it says "his", and for too long we don't know whose. I prefer ALT2, but let the prep builder decide. Of the images, I prefer the white (second) one, for context. New language question: "selected" sounds like there was a choice (given by whom?) from which he selected? Or did he coin or word the phrase. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:42, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

We also need a pictured-clause in both hooks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The sources are a little unclear from where it originates but state that Kipling only "selected" the phrase. It is mentioned a couple of times in the King James Bible from which Kipling used other phrases such as "Lest we forget", we could also use "chosen" or similar. "Pictured" added - Dumelow (talk) 13:54, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

thank you, understand that we can't give more than the sources supply. I think it would be nice to have one example from the KJV, but nothing on which approval rests. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:59, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, the use in the KJV is discussed in the "Origins of the phrase" section of the article - Dumelow (talk) 14:05, 14 December 2018 (UTC)