Template:Did you know nominations/Jane Margyl
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet (talk) 15:03, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
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Jane Margyl
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Jane Margyl as Dalila
- ... that Jane Margyl, who was a celebrated star at the Folies Bergère, became a mezzo-soprano appearing as Dalila at the Paris Opera in 1905 (pictured)? Source: several
- Reviewed: Sidonie Grünwald-Zerkowitz
Created by LouisAlain (talk) and Gerda Arendt (talk). Nominated by Gerda Arendt (talk) at 10:50, 5 May 2021 (UTC).
New enough, long enough, no copyvio, hook verified, image is fine. BUT there are a few things. There needs to be a citation after "left the Folies Bergère". The siblings need to be verified, each of em. And, and this is bigger, the citations aren't correct: "Gallica" is not the publisher. The hook is verified to an article from Le monde artiste, and it's titled "Courrier de la semaine", on p. 621--all that information needs to be in the citation, and it's the same for almost all the other citations. Drmies (talk) 17:06, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- You are right, and I hope LouisAlain can help. I usually find sources, but not in this case, - she seems known for having been photographed. Pages and pages of photos ... - Großes Sängerlexikon doesn't have her, or I have no access to the page. Grimes2, do you know? Could you help with the refs? My French is marginal, sadly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:45, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- A picture of her grave but ebay.fr may be forbidden to use ? LouisAlain (talk) 18:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is already a picture of her grave on commons (already added to fr article of Margyl) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tombe_Jane_Margyl,_Cimetière_des_Batignolles,_Paris.jpg Grimes2 (talk) 06:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
- A picture of her grave but ebay.fr may be forbidden to use ? LouisAlain (talk) 18:04, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- Großes Sängerlexikon doesn't have her. Grimes2 (talk) 18:02, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
- via Gallica refs:
Done Grimes2 (talk) 10:00, 6 May 2021 (UTC) - I just spent ten minutes on the first sentence of the "Life" section, making copy edits (punctuation), completing the templates (page numbers, authors), and checking the facts. Looking at other references I see that more of the same needs to be done, and it seems to me that there are a lot of minor edits to be made as well. A few examples: L'Enlèvement des Sabines should probably link to The Rape of the Sabine Women, because our audience is mostly English readers. The xs4all website is not reliable unless a strong case can be made for it, but I looked at the index and I am not sure how (it's someone's hobby project--admirable, but I don't think it will stand up to strong scrutiny). The "Family" section lists at least one person with no claim to notability, and a questionable link to a blog of someone who scours cemeteries. Best to cut that name, but then the text needs to be adjusted too... Drmies (talk) 19:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
ALT1: ... that Jane Margyl started her career as a mime and became an opera singer?
That leaped off the page for me as a hook. —valereee (talk) 13:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offer, but I think that the two well-known Paris institutions, and her signature role, add more precision to what kind of mime and opera singer. That hook doesn't even mention Paris, and leaves her without date and place, saying something that could be said also of others. To my understanding, the problem is the sourcing, not the hook, and I have a hard time, not able to dig up anything in French. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Having said that, I found a ref (a festival, English/French), and then found that it was already in the article. The information about the family members looks consistent on the web. Drmies, what do you think? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:04, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I went to look at that, but thought I'd look at just one reference--and this is what needed doing. Drmies (talk) 20:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Do you mean have the refs templated? I first wanted to make sure that the new ones were acceptable. Will look again tomorrow. I was away for some days, and need to nom a DYK today the latest, - too tired already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- No, it's rather that the things I pointed out earlier are still present in the article--it's not the template, because they're already templated, but this one didn't have an author's name, page numbers, complete title, and the text (about that statue) was not completely correct. Drmies (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry for jumping in without checking enough into what. I templated a few more refs, and replaced the one that is ecternal link anyway. Looking at one (#13 Le Monde), the author is just A.Z. - would it really help to list that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:17, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I looked at the others. Some are just short press notices, no author. Some are in the middle of something where I don't find an author. I could add a few more page numbers but does it really help when the click takes to the right page anyway? I understand the need for a page number better when in a long pdf, where it is needed to find the item. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- But Gerda, there is something (a lot) to be said for complete citations, and in this case there were no page numbers, an incomplete title, and no author. And on top of that the text did not properly reflect what was in the article. "Mourning her loss" was a bit too imaginative, and, by the way, that article also expanded on how she died, which would be a very interesting thing to put in the article... Your recent edits improve the article, and it's good enough for the front page. BUT: your original hook is not fully verified. "Mezzo-soprano" is not verified at all in the article. It might be in one of the sources, maybe in the reference for "followed the advice of Alexandre Luigini"--but there one wants to know what that advice consisted of anyway. Plus, what does "became a mezzo-soprano" mean? She changed her style or range or so? So I'd be fine with that hook if it is verified--but it's still a bit cryptic for a general audience. User:Valereee's hook is clear and simple, but doesn't have the detail you want--unless you make it "mime at the FB and became a mezzo soprano at the Paris Opera" or something like that. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I just think the fact she started out as a professional mime and became a professional singer is easily the most interesting thing about her. The fact she was famous for communicating without making a sound, and then for making sounds? Fabulous. —valereee (talk) 16:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- Will think. mime vs. singer could be anywhere, not the two top institutions of Paris. Dalila is a mezzo role - the great exception among all these soprano heroines, besides Carmen - so we singers with low-register voices want to say so ;) - I will look again later today, hungry, and no walk yet. We could drop Dalila in the hook because it's repetitive to the caption, in case you want to word something that says mime at the Folies. - I'm a bit reluctunt because mime at that time seems to have a bit different meaning from today's. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:06, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- How do you feel about dropping the mezzo then? - I have a hard time integrating it in the present text, because her early roles are soprano, but Dalila and Amneris are certainly not.
- ALT2: ... that Jane Margyl began her stage career as a mime at the Folies Bergère, and appeared as Dalila (pictured) at the Paris Opera in 1905? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:50, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I just think the fact she started out as a professional mime and became a professional singer is easily the most interesting thing about her. The fact she was famous for communicating without making a sound, and then for making sounds? Fabulous. —valereee (talk) 16:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- But Gerda, there is something (a lot) to be said for complete citations, and in this case there were no page numbers, an incomplete title, and no author. And on top of that the text did not properly reflect what was in the article. "Mourning her loss" was a bit too imaginative, and, by the way, that article also expanded on how she died, which would be a very interesting thing to put in the article... Your recent edits improve the article, and it's good enough for the front page. BUT: your original hook is not fully verified. "Mezzo-soprano" is not verified at all in the article. It might be in one of the sources, maybe in the reference for "followed the advice of Alexandre Luigini"--but there one wants to know what that advice consisted of anyway. Plus, what does "became a mezzo-soprano" mean? She changed her style or range or so? So I'd be fine with that hook if it is verified--but it's still a bit cryptic for a general audience. User:Valereee's hook is clear and simple, but doesn't have the detail you want--unless you make it "mime at the FB and became a mezzo soprano at the Paris Opera" or something like that. Drmies (talk) 15:52, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- No, it's rather that the things I pointed out earlier are still present in the article--it's not the template, because they're already templated, but this one didn't have an author's name, page numbers, complete title, and the text (about that statue) was not completely correct. Drmies (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Do you mean have the refs templated? I first wanted to make sure that the new ones were acceptable. Will look again tomorrow. I was away for some days, and need to nom a DYK today the latest, - too tired already. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:13, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
- Gerda Arendt, I went to look at that, but thought I'd look at just one reference--and this is what needed doing. Drmies (talk) 20:32, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
User:Valereee? I think it's fine. Drmies (talk) 20:06, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- Honestly I think it lose interest emphasising the name of the opera and opera company. I think it would get more attention if we focus on what more people would find interesting, and we're burying it here. It definitely loses by not contrasting mime/singing...maybe 'and sang Dalila'? I dunno. Why aren't we just going with a clearly high-general-interest hook instead of insisting on mentioning opera houses and operas, which are of not super-high general interest? The woman started her career as a mime and ended it as an opera singer. That's, like the opposite of a mime lol. Whatever. Piping redirect. —valereee (talk) 20:35, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- I try to avoid "sang Dalila" because she also should act, and "sang" is too little. There is no opera title, Dalila is just the heroine, the title is in French. She is pictured as Dalila, and not to mention it seems leaving the image in the air. But go ahead and try. ALT1 - with no hint at notability, just some mime becoming singer anyplace anytime - is not what I'd like. We have millions of readers of the Main page, but only 3.000 will click on her article, - so I try to give also the others some information. I hope the image will be taken, and that is the attraction, not our wording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:55, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Jane Margyl as Dalila in 1905
- ALT3: ... that Jane Margyl began her stage career as a mime at the Folies Bergère, and became a leading singer of the Paris Opera? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
- valereee, Drmies, does ALT3 as written work for you? I agree with valereee above—the contrast of mime and leading singer at the opera works really well. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- Absolutely, BlueMoonset. Drmies (talk) 02:24, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- Fine with it. —valereee (talk) 11:19, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- Then what is missing for a tick, Drmies? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:27, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- valereee, Drmies, does ALT3 as written work for you? I agree with valereee above—the contrast of mime and leading singer at the opera works really well. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:14, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
- ALT3: ... that Jane Margyl began her stage career as a mime at the Folies Bergère, and became a leading singer of the Paris Opera? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:01, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
