Template:Did you know nominations/Geneve L. A. Shaffer

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:46, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Geneve L. A. Shaffer

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Geneve Shaffer, San Francisco Call, 1909

... that in 1909 Geneve L. A. Shaffer was probably the first woman in the world to sail in a flying machine? Source: "May Be First Women to Sail in an Aeroplane", San Francisco Call, 106 (71), 1909 ([1]) and Lebow, Eileen F. (2002). Before Amelia: Women Pilots in the Early Days of Aviation, Potomac Books, Inc. p. 416 ([2])
- ALT1:... that Geneve L. A. Shaffer, the first glider pilot woman in the 1910s, was the only woman skyscraper builder in the United States in the 1930s? Source: "May Be First Women to Sail in an Aeroplane", San Francisco Call, 106 (71), 1909 ([3]) and San Francisco Girl is Skyscraper Queen, Shamokin News-Dispatch, 1934 ([4])

Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Reinhard Peters

Created by Elisa.rolle (talk). Self-nominated at 21:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC).

I really hope the nominator doesn't feel picked on, but once again I have to push back on these "first" claims sourced to obsolete sources. Compare the claim made for Aida_de_Acosta. I've struck ALT0 and cut the "first" claim from ALT1. E Eng 03:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

sorry but a 2002's book is not old: "Lebow, Eileen F. (2002). "Before Amelia: Women Pilots in the Early Days of Aviation", Potomac Books, Inc. p. 416 ([5])" that is the reason why there is the "probably" on the hook. FYI the Smithsonian does not put the "probably" in the claim: "United States Women in Aviation through World War I", Oakes, Claudia M. (1978-11-14) "Geneve Shaffer of San Francisco [...] made her first solo flight on 1 August 1909, in a glider built by her brother Cleve." and "Quest for Flight: John J. Montgomery and the Dawn of Aviation in the West" By Gary B. Fogel, Craig S. Harwood (2012) "Shaffer worked closely with his younger sister Geneve in the design and ... ited by the Smithsonian Institution as the first woman glider pilot in the United States" Elisa.rolle (talk) 08:44, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Well...

(a) Those aren't the sources given above at the ends of ALT0 and ALT1
(b) Now that you've given them, they say she "made her first solo flight" and "the first woman glider pilot in the United States" -- those are not the claims of ALT0 and ALT1, which are "first woman in the world to sail in a flying machine", and " first glider pilot woman" (anywhere, presumably).

E Eng 21:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

E Eng: Before Amelia (2002) is the source for ALT0 together with the article paper of the 1909 that says she is the first "in the world". Since the article is before the flight, that is the reason for the probably. But many websites and also the Smithsonian claim she did actually make the ascension.Elisa.rolle (talk) 21:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The link for Before Amelia doesn't work for me; please quote it. E Eng 22:01, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

It's not a PD source, therefore I was told I cannot copy it. It starts with "Geneve Shaffer Parsons claimed to have flown an aeroplane, built by her brother [...] in 1909 [...] some five months later, Geneve made a ballon ascension" the book than discuss about the fact the newspaper article is before the flight, and that is the reason for my "probably" in the hook.Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Short quotes like this, for what we're doing, are fair use. I'm sorry, but which of these supports ALT0, "first woman in the world to sail in a flying machine"? Which supports ALT1, "first glider pilot woman"? The only thing I can see is

... that in 1910 Geneve L. A. Shaffer became the United States' first woman glider pilot?

I've left out the skyscraper bit because, as in other cases, I'm not happy with the position of the source (a contemporary local paper) to make such a broad statement. E Eng 23:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

ok for ALT2, but I have to say that I do not agree to scratch historical sources... the article about the skyscrapers was published by an accredited journalist, therefore, I assume, she did her job sourcing the fact. The fact she wrote it in 1934 is even more a proof that the claim is valid, since they are talking of fact they are living, and not of something they researched on a paper like we do. Elisa.rolle (talk) 23:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the evaluation of sources is far more subtle than you make it out to be, but as long as you're willing to go with ALT2 we don't need to discuss that now. E Eng 23:45, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

ALT2:... that in 1910 Geneve L. A. Shaffer became the United States' first woman glider pilot? Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:52, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Review

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited: - ALT2 does not seem to be clearly stated and supported in the article. The closest it comes is the lead but the source was written ahead of her planned flight and talks of it as a "hope"
Interesting: - Her skyscrapers add interest for me so it would be good to work them in too. There may be scope for a pun or link via the word sky.

Image eligibility:

Freely licensed:
Used in article:
Clear at 100px: - The chosen picture seems too dark and obscure. I prefer the Who's Who picture (right).

QPQ: Done.

Overall: It's an interesting topic. Note that I started the List of aviatrices and Women in aviation and so have some experience of the firsts in this field. Andrew D. (talk) 11:49, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Andrew D.: the source for the first pilot is: "Quest for Flight: John J. Montgomery and the Dawn of Aviation in the West" By Gary B. Fogel, Craig S. Harwood (2012) "Shaffer worked closely with his younger sister Geneve in the design and ... cited by the Smithsonian Institution as the first woman glider pilot in the United States". I do think the skyscrapers factor was nice, but EEng contested the fact that a newspaper article of 1934 was not enough a good source. I do not agree, but I complied and remove that fact. The previous picture was of her in front of the glider, but if you think it's too dark, is good to replace. Elisa.rolle (talk) 12:00, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

That source and statement doesn't seem to appear in the article. DYK requires that "Each fact in the hook must be supported in the article by at least one inline citation to a reliable source, appearing no later than the end of the sentence(s) offering that fact."
EEng likes interesting hooks and so I expect he'll be happy to see the skyscrapers back if we do it right. For example, we might develop ALT2 to say that "that Geneve Shaffer, known as the "Skyscraper Girl", was the United States' first woman glider pilot?". That would need an addition to the article too, such as California Real Estate, vol. 77–79, 1997, p. 74, Shaffer, who was known as the "Skyscraper Girl" because she was the first female skyscraper builder in the country, ....

Andrew D. (talk) 12:53, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Andrew D.: ALT3:... that Geneve L. A. Shaffer, known as the "Skyscraper Girl", was the United States' first woman glider pilot? Source: "Quest for Flight: John J. Montgomery and the Dawn of Aviation in the West" By Gary B. Fogel, Craig S. Harwood (2012) and "California Real Estate, Vol. 77-79" (1997) p. 74. (Added to the article as well)Elisa.rolle (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok, I'm content that the points raised above have been addressed. Thanks, Andrew D. (talk) 15:34, 26 August 2017 (UTC)