Template:Did you know nominations/Genesis (Lebrun)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Kimikel talk 02:36, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Genesis (Lebrun)

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Genesis (1960)

... that Rico Lebrun refused to provide the Pomona College Board of Trustees with sketches for approval of the Genesis mural (pictured) they commissioned from him? Source: Art Journal "The president of Pomona then suggested that a committee of trustees should see sketches for approval. Both Selz and Lebrun objected on the grounds that the work of a well-known artist should be evaluated on the basis of his accomplishments. The donors took the same position. After a year's delay, while Lebrun was at Yale, the president and trustees agreed to give the artist a free hand."
- ALT1: ... that Genesis (pictured) is "a religious painting created during a non-religious age"? Source: Benton Museum of Art "In the words of art historian Peter Selz, 'by and large, he stands as a controversial and solitary figure, and the Genesis mural, a religious painting created during a non-religious age, remains a unique act.'"
- ALT2: ... that Rico Lebrun's preparatory drawings for Genesis (pictured) covered most of the tables in the Pomona College dining hall where he painted it? Source: The History of Pomona College, 1887-1969 Lebrun had planned to paint the mural during the summer of 1960 and arrived in June with drawings so extensive that they covered most of the tables of Frary Hall.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Rabbit
- Comment: Given that the subject is a mural, an inherently visual topic, I would much prefer this to appear with the image (even if it means having to wait longer for a slot to open).

Created by Chirpy-slirpy-BURPY (talk) and Sdkb (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 42 past nominations.

Sdkb ^talk 06:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC).

@Sdkb: I think the QPQ link is broken? Have you completed a QPQ? Per a recent rule change, QPQs now have to be provided at the time of the nomination instead of up to a week after like before, so please clarify this as soon as possible if you do not want the nomination to be closed. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
Ah, I was unaware of that change, Narutolovehinata5; thanks for letting me know! I've done a review and added that above. Cheers, Sdkb ^talk 16:47, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy compliance:

Adequate sourcing:
Neutral:
Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
Other problems:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting:
Other problems:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Great to see this article! One issue with the hook: it is worded fine, but the article text currently says that the Board asked for sketches, whereas the source says it was the President. Since creator requests use of image, let's get another opinion on clarity. Maybe a better image can be obtained from Pomona? This is my first DYK review, so would welcome comments or a second review. Update: No other reviewer commented, as requested. See discussion of wording of the hook. ProfGray (talk) 03:43, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Genesis (1960)

Detail of Genesis (1960)

Thanks for taking a look and doing the review, ProfGray! My understanding from the sources is that the president suggested there be a review, but that the actual review would have been done by the trustees' Buildings and Grounds committee, which is why I used the wording I did.

Agreed with you that the alt hooks are significantly less interesting, so let's focus on ALT0.

Also, good catch that the details are a little hard to make out at 100px. Pomona hasn't ever responded when I've asked them to donate images in the past, but luckily since the work itself is PD we don't need their permission to have some options. One is to crop the existing image a bit to zoom in. And the second is to use a detail from the center of the mural rather than trying to capture the full thing. Lmk which you prefer!

Cheers, Sdkb ^talk 21:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Image looks better on my computer! In terms of President vs Board, I'm happy to trust your understanding of the sources, just be sure that the hook and article wording are consistent.Cheers, ProfGray (talk) 01:45, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray: Are there any other concerns with this hook? If not, is this approved? Z1720 (talk) 23:19, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. The proposed hook still needs to be rephrased, so that "sketches for approval" does not need to be in quotes. For example: that Rico Lebrun refused to provide sketches for the Pomono College Board of Trustees to sign off on the Genesis mural they commissioned?

Afaik, this can be approved even though the ALT hooks are weak.@Sdkb:@Z1720: ProfGray (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Three words generally isn't considered long enough for there to be any copyright issues. If you're ready to sign off, ProfGray, you need to provide the green check, {{subst:dyktick}}. Sdkb ^talk 05:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

For text as visible as DYK, seems best to err on the side of caution. It's not the number of words per se, see examples at WP:NOCREATIVE with two words. Should be feasible to revise the hook, even keeping the exact word 'sketches.' Indeed, the article itself doesn't use the phrase as is. Presumably there are reasonable alternatives to the word 'approval.' (FWIW, the paraphrasing in the overall article is skillfully done.) ProfGray (talk) 13:42, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

ProfGray, per the essay you just linked, there is no copyrightable creative expression in that factual phrase "sketches for approval" (I arrived at the wording independently after rephrasing the Wikipedia article) — this is not borderline. I do not find the rewrite to flow as well. I'd appreciate it if you could answer my query from above about which image alternative you'd prefer, and then let's please wrap this up. Sdkb ^talk 03:59, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Sdkb I'm giving my green approval, for lack of a better of a word. It's a fine article and certainly deserves a DYK. Use whichever image you think would be best. All the best, ProfGray (talk) 02:30, 1 November 2024 (UTC)