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Template:Did you know nominations/Danylo Matviienko

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by CSJJ104 (talk) 21:00, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

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Danylo Matviienko

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Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 16:01, 31 August 2022 (UTC).

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

  • Cited: Yes
  • Interesting: Yes
  • Other problems: No - The reference to studying mathematics seems completely extraneous - unless, for example, Demetrius was a mathematician. Demetrius and Benjamin Britten should be wikilinked.
QPQ: Done.

Overall: StAnselm (talk) 16:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Demetrius in Benjamin Britten's A Midsummer Night’s Dream

Thank you for the review, and I reviewed now Template:Did you know nominations/Ordinal (liturgy), first article. I am no friend of the sea of blue, hoping for readers knowing their Shakespeare and that Benjamin Britten composed the opera, and if not, they can be sure to find the links following the opera link. I debated with myself to say that he learned his singing in Donetsk, Kyiv, Warsaw and Paris, but found cute that he is a mathematician also. - I've seen him on stage (Demetrius and one of Penelope's suitors in Ulisse), - he's also a good actor, but the reviews don't focus on that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:43, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Fair enough, I think I just have the opposite approach in wikilinks. I cannot imagine the typical reader knowing who Britten is. I will just do it as an alternate hook:
StAnselm (talk) 22:02, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Did you know that we have reviewers who resist any mentioning of opera roles? Do you expect readers to know by his name that he is from Ukraine? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
(a) No, and I have just come back to DYK after about seven years away. (b) No, and I don't expect readers to know that Donetsk is in Ukraine either. StAnselm (talk) 22:23, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
There's a link for Donetsk for those who don't know but want to find out. We are supposed to raise curiosity, not tell it all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:41, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
@StAnselm: For what it's worth, it may not be a good idea to have so many blue links in an article. We'd want to encourage people to read Matviienko's article itself rather than to direct clicks to his operas or where he performed. Perhaps these can work as alternatives?
ALT2 ... that Ukrainian baritone Danylo Matviienko studied mathematics in university prior to starting his operatic career?
ALT3 ... that Danylo Matviienko, whose roles include Dr. Falke in Die Fledermaus at the Paris Opera, studied mathematics prior to starting his operatic career?
ALT4 ... that Danylo Matviienko, whose roles include Demetrius in A Midsummer Night's Dream, studied mathematics prior to starting his operatic career?
ALT4a ... that Danylo Matviienko, whose roles include Demetrius in A Midsummer Night's Dream at the Oper Frankfurt, studied mathematics prior to starting his operatic career?
To me at least I think the mathematics angle stands out so I think there should be an emphasis on that, but as a compromise I've also included his roles if there's a desire to include them. If there's a desire not to have a sea of blue, all three of the above proposals have only one or two links. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:40, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Yeah, we'd have to agree to disagree about the blue links. I could live with ALT2, though. StAnselm (talk) 04:09, 6 September 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for the offers, but I disagree. I believe the cute mathematics come out strongly enough at the very beginning of the original hook, - someone who studied both! I don't know if math was prior or (partly) at the same time. The latter seems more likely looking at how young he still is. With more room in a hook, we could say that he completed both (which would be nice because many study two things but one only shortly). However, the focus should be what he does now, and he is a member of the Oper Frankfurt, while Paris was temporary. Also, Demetrius is the more interesting role compared to Dr. Falke, and - I think I said that before - readers may know their Shakespeare. The Penelope suitor role in Dallapiccola might also work, plus there was a review calling him something "virile", but we had Ulisse twice already, and the name of the suitor is less known than Shakespeare's role. We do need Britten for the hook, because it's not a repertoire piece people would know by name alone such as Aida. I'd like to show the Ukraine connection at least indirectly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:41, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Just to keep this going, since it's stalled a bit, here is a refinement of my suggested hook:

I want to wikilink "baritone" but I will resist. StAnselm (talk) 16:10, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  • My opinion, for what it's worth, is that ALT2 is far more interesting and hooky than the rest. We've had far too many "did you know that performer X performed a performance of musical work Y at theatre Z" hooks. They are totally picayune, mundane, and boring. They make me want to pass over the hook. They are a waste of space. In contrast, "did you know that performer X studied mathematics", while likely a very minor aspect of his career, stands out as unusual and therefore hooky. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:03, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Studying mathematics seems quite ordinary to me, however. Literally millions of people do it. StAnselm (talk) 19:09, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Maybe for a random person. But for an opera performer, performing an opera seems quite ordinary to me, and studying mathematics less so. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:29, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
As what David said above, it's not that he studied mathematics that makes that angle interesting. It's that, despite him being a career opera performer, his educational background was in mathematics, which is pretty unusual. Usually, opera performers would be studying classical music and the like as their undergraduate degree, not mathematics. If it was just him studying math in school like most of us, it wouldn't be that interesting or unusual. But having a master's degree in mathematics before entering the world of opera is unusual and I imagine doesn't happen very often. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:09, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I keep forgetting that "studied math" could be in school, in English, while the German word is reserved for academic studies. Help wanted to phrase ALT0 to clarify. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:49, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
I agree that holding a master's degree in mathematics is highly unusual in this context. There's many mathematicians around and and many seasoned opera singers, but it's rare to find someone who is both. My suggestion:
This is a mix of some of the other hooks, while making it clearer that he actually finished his mathematical studies. –LordPeterII (talk) 09:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Personally I still prefer ALT2, although I'm okay with ALT5 as a compromise. I'd rather leave it to the reviewer or promoter in this case. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:52, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
To be sure, not everyone gets a Master's degree:
It still doesn't seem super-interesting to me. (Note also that "prior to starting his operatic career" is not in the cited source, though it might be inferred.) StAnselm (talk) 19:17, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
I think there are too many hooks on this page now, and the conversation has moved on. Gerda Arendt please could you kindly strike all those hooks which which are redundant, or would now be unacceptable to the nominator/creator?
for ALT5. As I write this, I am happy with all the unstruck hooks so far, on the simple grounds that none of them break any DYK rules. I don't believe that individual reviewers sitting alone in front of a screen have the right to pronounce on what is or is not too boring for international consumption. If a hook interests you: fine, say it. If it does not interest you personally, please give others a chance to express their interest. In my opinion ALT5 includes the nominator's requirements for clarity about the high level of maths studied by Matviienko, and it includes who he is and what he does now. Storye book (talk) 15:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
I like ALT5. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
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