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Template:Did you know nominations/Brihony Dawson

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 01:16, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

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Brihony Dawson

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Created by RegionalQueenslander (talk). Nominated by Happily888 (talk) at 12:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC).

  • Seems to be just new and long enuf (cutting it close: 1570ish characters by my count), but the first hook fact should really be repeated in the body if possible and not just in the lede. ALT1 is less interesting. Plus there are a few other things worth looking at especially for a BLP, such as the fact that their supposed spouse is only mentioned in the infobox (without a citation). Kingoflettuce (talk) 00:27, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
  • Kingoflettuce The nominator cited it in the body on December 14, but never returned to the nomination. SL93 (talk) 23:57, 21 December 2022 (UTC)
Ackchyually they only cited ALT1, which was an additional cite that probably didn't add much value. The other concerns still remain and if you pick apart the really obvious padding (TV show names, who's who, & phrases like "married to wife"), I'm not even sure the article would be 1500 characters long. In light of recent DYK-related events, I shall err on the side of caution here and still lean towards rejecting this, unless the nominator makes a speedy return (given that they eventually came around to adding that one random cite, I suppose they will try their best to improve this, if they haven't expended all their energy already.) Cheers, KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 00:07, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
@Kingoflettuce: I have done some copy-editing to make the article clearer and edited the article to repeat the first hook fact in the body. Happily888 (talk) 01:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Wondering how crucial the qualification "...in a major TV series" is. I'll still sign off on this but even more or more comprehensive sourcing would be welcome. KINGofLETTUCE 👑 🥬 17:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
Pulled from prep per Wikipedia talk:Did you know#Brihony Dawson, which is also where an Errors report can be read. SL93 (talk) 22:15, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
  • First impression looking at this article is that it isn't fit for DYK; it is again little more than a proseline filmography. Is there perhaps something more to add to the article about their performances with major bands? Ping nominator @Happily888: because it would be nice to feature more non-binary people, as long as we have something to say that isn't "they were in X show", which is currently the only option. Some of the sources in the article look promising to have more details to add, and I've also found this one (archive link) that talks about their experiences of prejudice and acceptance in different industries, if people think that hook angle would interest. Kingsif (talk) 00:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
How about the alt below? I know it's a little bit long, although I'm sure it is able to be probably easily cleaned up later:
If the article isn't fit for DYK, I would be fine with having it declined... If the alt is fine though, it just needs to be added somewhere in the article. Happily888 (talk) 02:41, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
@Happily888: I think that's valuable information to include. I could rework the hook for you, but then someone else will need to review it. I wonder if @Kingoflettuce: would be willing, if that's okay with you. Kingsif (talk) 02:43, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
ALT2 as currently written as it's 294(!) characters long, far above the 200-character limit. However, I think that particular angle does have potential and I think a shortened version would be quite intriguing. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:11, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. I don't think ALT2 is an interesting hook. (The fact also isn't stated in their biography.) This is 2023, and many workplaces have HR departments that have been raising awareness about pronouns in the workplace. Some companies encourage employees to put gender pronouns in their email signatures; others give employees the option of updating their intranets. Brihony Dawson is a TV presenter, so the production team had a reminder on a sheet of paper. (Further thoughts to follow. It will take some time to explain, but I promise it ends with an uplifting ALT hook.) Cielquiparle (talk) 14:27, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Here are my proposed ALT hooks. If either hook is chosen, the article text would need to get updated accordingly.
Pinging @Happily888, Kingoflettuce, Kingsif, and Narutolovehinata5: As a side note, I've also compiled a table of all the "TV first" claims made by each media outlet, and am happy to explain how they are different, etc., and why I think the ones used above should be bulletproof. Like many editors, I am generally wary of "first in history" type claims, but in this particular case I think we can justify precise wordings based on reliable sources, as well as counterexamples, and topic-wise it seems important not to minimise the significance of Brihony's achievements. Cielquiparle (talk) 19:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
Among the two options, I'd probably go with ALT3 since it requires less special knowledge (i.e. knowing who T. J. Lavin is). I'll leave the final tick to someone more experienced with the subject matter. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:46, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
I think that alt4 could easily just say "the U.S. host" at the end, so it's not disqualifying, but I'm just waiting on the facts being added to the article - @Cielquiparle:? Kingsif (talk) 04:04, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
  • ALT4a: ... that when Brihony Dawson debuted as the first non-binary host of The Challenge reality TV franchise in Australia, they decided not to imitate the "ominous" style of the U.S. host?
  • ALT4b: ... that when Australian Brihony Dawson debuted as the first non-binary host of The Challenge reality TV franchise, they decided not to imitate the "ominous" style of the U.S. host?
@Kingsif and Narutolovehinata5: Thanks for the feedback. Please see above. Personally I am liking ALT4b now, with the fix suggested by Kingsif in response to Narutolovehinata5. The corresponding fact is already cited in the main body of the article. For ALT3, the corresponding fact is in the article as a footnote/endnote at the moment, but if we decide that hook is best, I will try to work out how to fix that. (As I was going through it all again yesterday, I decided to just go with "first non-binary presenter to front a major TV show in Australia" in the lede, because that is what was repeated most often across multiple sources. But I actually wouldn't use that particular phrase in a hook, and tend to agree with the person who said that "major TV show" smacks of WP:WEASEL; it's just that the reality is that that was what most media outlets billed Dawson as in the end, though even Dawson themselves said something slightly different (also explained in the footnote).) As a side note: striking ALT0 so there's no confusion (already rejected at Queue) and ALT1 (which I am rejecting as misleading re: "first international spin-off"). Cielquiparle (talk) 09:37, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
Having given the article a check for DYK crit again, and seeing the inclusion of the fact and quote with good ref, happy to sign off on alt4a and alt4b; agree with nominator that alt4b sounds good. Kingsif (talk) 21:24, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
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