Template:Did you know nominations/Armorial of British universities

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Flibirigit (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Armorial of British universities

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• ... that the coats of arms of British univerities contain dolphins and a DNA helix? in base a dolphin naiant Sable a representation of a DNA Double Helix
  • ALT1:... that seaweed, and an elephant surrounded by nuclei appear on arms of British universities? a branch of seaweed called laver an Elephant statant, on the back a Castle triple towered Or; In the second and third quarters, representations of the two Isotopes of Lithium, that in the second quarter having six and that in the third seven Protons and neutrons in its nucleus, with Electrons in orbit Argent

Moved to mainspace by Robin S. Taylor (talk) and Shadowssettle (talk). Nominated by Shadowssettle (talk) at 17:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC).

• The reliance of this article on heraldry-wiki.com is concerning, as it does not immediately strike me as a WP:RS. Escutcheon descriptions appear to be (at least in some cases) direct quotes, which might make sense given the subject matter, but it needs to be clear they are direct quotes. Some lack sources. Some sources lack access dates. CMD (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, full blazons are technical descriptions which can't really be "changed", they're often the official description in the grant of arms. Coming up with a new blazon would be like coming with a new motto, inaccurate and pointless. Also, their length is short enough that in almost all legal traditions they are not copyright (see Wikipedia's information page).

I do agree Heraldry of the World (heraldry-wiki.com) is not the best source, and it has been avoided where easily possible, but even WikiProject Heraldry lists it as a possible resource (along with a forum so yes, not great). Would it be okay just to use information from preferable sources for the hook? Shadowssettle _{Need a word?} 09:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The full blazons don't have to be changed, but especially given they are direct quotes, they need to be sourced. If I as a reader look at the Aberdeen entry, I have no way to see where the matriculation date was found, where the motto and escutcheon are from, and therefore even where the image might be from.

I would be okay with the inclusion of heraldry-wiki in the article if the hooks themselves are better sourced. I would also prefer the hook not be from a primary source. Perhaps Patterson 2008 might be the best. CMD (talk) 10:01, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

• The hooks aren't thrilling. I might suggest using the dna tidbit and focusing on that school. --evrik ^(talk) 18:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the DNA angle would work without an image (which wouldn't be possible due to NFCC). For what it's worth I thought the original hook was fine, but perhaps more examples of elements could be added. Apart from the sourcing issue, my main concern is that the hook doesn't make it clear that the elements are referring to separate schools and the hook seems to somewhat imply that there's only one or a few coats of arms for all British universities. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5, the problem really isn't with the hook but with the sourcing, as Chipmunkdavis has pointed out. Meanwhile, the nominator has indicated on his talk page that he is willing to withdraw this, and the other page creator has been pinged a few times, most recently 2 1/2 weeks ago, without reply. I am marking this nomination for closure unless someone else wants to adopt it. Yoninah (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Repinging other page creator Robin S. Taylor, since prior ping wouldn't have worked due to typo. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't have any ambition of a DYK nomination. I used Heraldry of the World because it was the most readily available source for arms granted in the last century - since universities themselves don't normally quote the blazon on their websites and I really know of, much less have access to, any heraldic reference books for more recent institutions. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Based on the comment directly above, and this comment on the nominator's talk page, it's time to close this as withdrawn. Flibirigit (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

References