Talk:Armorial of British universities

Notes for Other Editors

This has been a work all of my own up to this point, so I will leave a few pointers for other editors:

• Institutions are listed according to the status they had at the time of the matriculation of the arms displayed - the University of Hull, for instance, was granted those arms back when it was still a college of the University of London.
• Fair use is not accepted on pages like this, so if a non-free image is used on the institution's own article (such as copied from its website) it must be recreated as a free image for this one.
• Some of the images in use already are merely placeholders and do not represent any insignia relating to the university listed adjacent.

Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

@Robin S. Taylor: I tried to follow your pattern, but as more universities such as Imperial and Exeter were added, this became less and less useful. Also, the leaving of universities no longer part of the UK in the main list was also seemed less-than-sensible. I reorganised it based around current institutions (heraldry's not just a historical exercise in this country) with former universities listed separately. Shadowssettle_(talk) 15:55, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

There has recently been an edit to alter the order of the page, categorising universities by 'founding year'. I think this not only alienates the reader if they do not know when the university was founded, but makes the whole page a lot more difficult to read. I wonder if you could revert these changes or suggest a compromise as the original creator? - Thomas (TMcB23) 2.24.216.139 (talk) 23:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

DYK nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Flibirigit (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that the coats of arms of British univerities contain dolphins and a DNA helix? in base a dolphin naiant Sable a representation of a DNA Double Helix
  • ALT1:... that seaweed, and an elephant surrounded by nuclei appear on arms of British universities? a branch of seaweed called laver an Elephant statant, on the back a Castle triple towered Or; In the second and third quarters, representations of the two Isotopes of Lithium, that in the second quarter having six and that in the third seven Protons and neutrons in its nucleus, with Electrons in orbit Argent

Moved to mainspace by Robin S. Taylor (talk) and Shadowssettle (talk). Nominated by Shadowssettle (talk) at 17:37, 19 June 2020 (UTC).

• The reliance of this article on heraldry-wiki.com is concerning, as it does not immediately strike me as a WP:RS. Escutcheon descriptions appear to be (at least in some cases) direct quotes, which might make sense given the subject matter, but it needs to be clear they are direct quotes. Some lack sources. Some sources lack access dates. CMD (talk) 15:54, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, full blazons are technical descriptions which can't really be "changed", they're often the official description in the grant of arms. Coming up with a new blazon would be like coming with a new motto, inaccurate and pointless. Also, their length is short enough that in almost all legal traditions they are not copyright (see Wikipedia's information page).

I do agree Heraldry of the World (heraldry-wiki.com) is not the best source, and it has been avoided where easily possible, but even WikiProject Heraldry lists it as a possible resource (along with a forum so yes, not great). Would it be okay just to use information from preferable sources for the hook? Shadowssettle _{Need a word?} 09:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The full blazons don't have to be changed, but especially given they are direct quotes, they need to be sourced. If I as a reader look at the Aberdeen entry, I have no way to see where the matriculation date was found, where the motto and escutcheon are from, and therefore even where the image might be from.

I would be okay with the inclusion of heraldry-wiki in the article if the hooks themselves are better sourced. I would also prefer the hook not be from a primary source. Perhaps Patterson 2008 might be the best. CMD (talk) 10:01, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

• The hooks aren't thrilling. I might suggest using the dna tidbit and focusing on that school. --evrik ^(talk) 18:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the DNA angle would work without an image (which wouldn't be possible due to NFCC). For what it's worth I thought the original hook was fine, but perhaps more examples of elements could be added. Apart from the sourcing issue, my main concern is that the hook doesn't make it clear that the elements are referring to separate schools and the hook seems to somewhat imply that there's only one or a few coats of arms for all British universities. Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 03:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5, the problem really isn't with the hook but with the sourcing, as Chipmunkdavis has pointed out. Meanwhile, the nominator has indicated on his talk page that he is willing to withdraw this, and the other page creator has been pinged a few times, most recently 2 1/2 weeks ago, without reply. I am marking this nomination for closure unless someone else wants to adopt it. Yoninah (talk) 11:26, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Repinging other page creator Robin S. Taylor, since prior ping wouldn't have worked due to typo. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't have any ambition of a DYK nomination. I used Heraldry of the World because it was the most readily available source for arms granted in the last century - since universities themselves don't normally quote the blazon on their websites and I really know of, much less have access to, any heraldic reference books for more recent institutions. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 17:04, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Based on the comment directly above, and this comment on the nominator's talk page, it's time to close this as withdrawn. Flibirigit (talk) 03:42, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Meanings of arms

Should we add a column for the meaning of the arms? Quite a few universities talk about this, some without giving a blazon.

Should we include arms for which we have a description of the meaning and a free-use image but no blazon?

Robminchin (talk) 07:06, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

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• Arms of the University of Warwick.svg

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Lyon Court

To mark International Heraldry Day, the Lyon Court has Tweeted drawings of the arms of Scotland's universities.[[1]] Robin S. Taylor (talk) 21:44, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Fair Use

Please see below - alert and notification of removal of images because on non-compliance with WP:NFLISTS

Greetings. I've just removed 42 non-free files from Armorial of schools in England. Please be aware of WP:NFLISTS. We do not generally allow an article of this type to have non-free files used in this way. Your addition of these images resulted in this article using more non-free content than any other article on the entire project of over 6 million articles but one. We do not use non-free imagery in this way. I'll be making a similar removal at Armorial of British universities, as the additions of non-free files there made it the 3rd highest article in terms of non-free image use.

Also, while I appreciate your attempt to comply with WP:NFCC #10c in adding rationales for use such as you did here, a purpose of use that is "Logo is used for illustration" is insufficient. If the only requirement that we had for using non-free files here is that we are using them for illustration, there would be absolutely no limitation on the use of non-free images.

I'm sorry to undo your work, but this is a necessary thing. If you have questions about this, let me know. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 12:49, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I would be interested in other editors opinions on this, specifically with regard to the following:
a) the article may be the largest or smallest user of non-free images - this is irrelevant
b) if the rationale is 'insufficent', it can for sure be strengthened, recognising that heraldry is a visual art form and as such an image is essential to the exposition
c) WP:NFLISTS does not prohibit using multiple non-free images, it states they 'should be used judiciously'. I contend this is the case here
Hjamesberglen (talk) 10:45, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

• Given that this talk page has seen 30 pageviews in the last year [2], it's highly unlikely we'll have anything other than a 50/50 disagreement on this point. I've started a discussion at WT:NFC on this point, where there are considerably more eyes to evaluate this. See the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content#Use_of_non-free_files_in_list_articles. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:33, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

The guidelines don't seem to really address the situation here where the non-free images are essentially the subject of the article. Discussion on the NFC page, as suggested above, would be better to bring in more people who are experts in this area. Ideally, free-use versions of all of the arms would be created and used here, as has been done for quite a few universities. Robminchin (talk) 21:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Non-armigerous universities

Just wanted to pop on here to mention that, after a little research, I have come across sources for arms for Leeds Beckett, Bedfordshire (carried over from Luton) and Regent's college universities. None are reputable enough to use as sources for Wikipedia, but it may be worth looking further before listing them as 'non-armigerous'? Additionally, the University of Roehampton has a banner of arms so, by logic, it must also have a coat of arms surely? Unless it's because this hasn't been formally granted. Hopefully someone in the know will pick up on these comments - cheers, Thomas (talk) 00:27, 13 March 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.216.187 (talk)

Organisation of the page

As recently posted in the #Notes for Other Editors topic, organisation by foundation date is not ideal. Rather than continuing in that topic, I felt it was better to start a fresh thread to discuss this. I agree that this isn't ideal, but I also feel that some sort of organisation is needed rather than having a long list. Possibly sub-dividing the list by geographical regions would be better. What do others think? 00:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC) Robminchin (talk) 00:10, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I preferred the simple alphabetical presentation even though it was somewhat clunky to edit. I do not support groupinng UK universities by region as this would be an 'invention'; I am not aware of this division being used elsewhere. The current grouping at least is an established convention. In summary I'm not pushing for further change and certainly not volunteering to put the pieces back together! Hjamesberglen (talk) 07:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Hjamesberglen: Organising by region is actually very common and is done consistently by all sorts of different bodies (e.g., UCAS map of universities and colleges by region), while the organisation by age used here is more open to debate and is less consistent across different sources. Robminchin (talk) 18:12, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

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Grammar of the title

The word 'armorial' definitely appears to be an adjective, as such it needs a noun to modify. This could be something like, 'armorial bearings', or 'armorial cognizances'. Having an encyclopedia entry with an ungrammatical title is far from ideal. Perhaps the straightforward, 'coats of arms' would be better? Urselius (talk) 13:05, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Armorial is a noun, meaning 'a book of heraldic devices' (according to the definition from Oxford returned by Google). The use here is pretty standard on Wikipedia, e.g. Armorial of sovereign states, Armorial of the United States, Armorial of Europe, etc., and in Category:Armorials. It can also be an adjective, but that isn't its use in page titles. Robminchin (talk) 20:16, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Merge and rename halls and colleges sections; rename former colleges subsection

We currently have two sections, one for constituent colleges, with a diversity of institutions including colleges of various sorts, member institutions of the University of London, and a former college that is now a campus of the University of Nottingham. We also have a section for constituent halls, for halls of residence with their own arms and Oxford PPHs; these are closer to the residential colleges than the UoL member institutions that are included with colleges. Former licensed halls of residence at Durham are, however, given under former colleges as there's only one sub-section there. It seems to me that we've ended up with separate sections for halls and colleges because of concerns about the constitutional minutiae of Oxford (the PPHs used to be listed under colleges), but we should be able to find a better solution.

I suggest that we merge the 'arms of constituent colleges' and 'arms of constituent halls' to 'arms of constituent bodies' (which could also include departments or faculties with their own arms, such as the Institute of Education) and rename 'former constituent colleges' to 'former constituent bodies'. What do other editors think? Robminchin (talk) 18:08, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I note the anomaly of Nottinghams's former college. It needs to be moved. However I think we are in the right place in terms of categorisation. In terms of 'commonplace' understanding most readers with an interest in higher education would recognise the group of collegiate universities and therefore the existence of separate colleges, Oxford and Cambridge of course being the prime examples. Therefore I would be reluctant to use the term 'constituent bodies'. I would maintain the status quo. Hjamesberglen (talk) 22:08, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the status quo doesn't work well as an organisational scheme – it doesn't give a solution for the Nottingham campus or the UCL Institute of Education (which we don't currently have anywhere), and that Cambridge institutions are all found under colleges, Oxford is split between colleges and halls, and Manchester is entirely under halls, is far from obvious to anyone who is browsing in, even if they are fairly knowledgeable. We could quite easily have 'Cambridge colleges', 'London member institutions', 'Manchester halls', 'Nottingham campuses', 'Oxford colleges and halls', etc., under a single, more general heading, rather than having two sections that don't fully take in the variety of different institutions listed. Robminchin (talk) 22:39, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Beginning to like your concept. There will no edit war initiated by me! Hjamesberglen (talk) 13:00, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Great. I've made the update and added the UCL School of Pharmacy (I may have got this crossed with the Institute of Education, as I can't now track down the IoE coat of arms). Robminchin (talk) 23:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)