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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Yoninah (talk) 00:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Antigone oder die Stadt

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Georg Katzer
Georg Katzer
  • Reviewed: to come Willem Botha
  • Comment: ... so it came too late to enlighten, - other hooks welcome

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 17:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC).

  • New enough. Long enough. QPQ awaited. As the hook is too long, have suggested a shorter (still 199 characters) and slightly tweaked ALT1 (in the UK at least I think that we tend to use DDR rather than GDR, but I may be out of date/touch). The hook is decent, and AGF on the offline source, but it stacks up with well-known historical events. Not certain if the image licensing is suitable for the front page - "No machine-readable source provided. Own work assumed (based on copyright claims)." Neutral. Every paragraph is well-cited. Earwig and spot-checking found no close paraphrasing, copyright violation or plagiarism.
  • Thank you for the review and proposal. I am not sure about DDR - certainly we in Germany say so but would it be understood in Japan? Also "final days" is a bit like a phrase, - actually it was more than a year. I am busy in real life, so you will have to wait for the review. I did one, but have a more urgent nomination on my mind. No rush for this one, with the composer still on the Main page. The image seems to have been "donated" by a family member. - Thank for helping a foreigner! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:54, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Gerda Arendt, I have changed "days" to "stage" in ALT1 - we did have a spare character to play with. As for GDR or DDR, perhaps we should leave that for prep builders to decide - I really don't have a firm view on it. No rush for the QPQ - I can be very slow with doing them myself. Edwardx (talk) 09:23, 13 May 2019 (UTC)
  • I managed a review now, listed above. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:20, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Good to go - prep builder needs to check the image licensing, if the image is used. Edwardx (talk) 17:34, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but the grammar in ALT1 is awkward. The clause but the system collapsed before it was premiered at the Komische Oper Berlin actually implies that the opera was the "system". I wouldn't call the GDR a system. Maybe a "republic". There's no cite in the article for the republic collapsing before the opera premiered. Yoninah (talk) 19:47, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
  • It wasn't a republic. Regime? We certainly said "System" in German. How about "it". I know many who would insist on saying "sogenannte DDR", so-called GDR. Easiest: use the original. Or use only the first half of ALT1 and let readers figure the rest. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
  • That's a good idea to cut the hook in half. But we're left with "Did you know that a composer and a librettist wrote an opera based on Sophocles?" Do you have something more hook-worthy? Yoninah (talk) 20:37, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that librettist Gerhard Müller and composer Georg Katzer (pictured) conceived the opera Antigone oder die Stadt based on Sophocles in the final stage of the GDR?
ALT3: ... that Gerhard Müller and Georg Katzer (pictured) conceived Antigone oder die Stadt, based on Sophocles, in the DDR's final stage, but the opera premiered at the Komische Oper Berlin after the Wende? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Firstly, people in the US refer to it as GDR, not DDR. Secondly, what is the Wende? This will not be understandable to an English-speaking audience, and if they have to go clicking on Wende, you've lost them. Yoninah (talk) 21:35, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Wende is just so much shorter than "second German unification". --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:07, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
It's still too niche of a term, and while there is a hyperlink, clicking on it might be too much effort for readers. With that said, I disagree that an opera being based on Sophocles is not interesting to a broad audience and I personally think that a fact like that actually pretty catchy. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

@Yoninah and Gerda Arendt: Would you be okay with something like this?

ALT4 ... that librettist Gerhard Müller and composer Georg Katzer (pictured) produced an opera based on the Ancient Greek play Antigone by Sophocles?
I'm not sure if mentioning Antigone or Sophocles by themselves would appeal though to those unfamiliar with Greek history, so my solution to include the words "Ancient Greek play", though I'm open to those words being removed if deemed unnecessary. In this proposal, I don't think a mention of East Germany is necessary since that would be too much clutter. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:20, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but it's actually very common that operas are based on Greek mythology, and a waste of words to "Ancient Greek" to names such as Orpheus, Oedipus, Odysseus, Elektra, Ariadne, to name just a few (and I could name more than one opera for each of them). The specific thing here is that the old plot was coined t relate to the actual misery, but failed because when it was ready to be performed that misery was gone. If you can put that in hook-size, you are my hero. (The hook should not focus on Greek mythology but on the authors' 20th-century work. ALT4 could be any time, Baroque, Romantic, ...) To play with:
ALT5: ... that Gerhard Müller and Georg Katzer (pictured) wrote the opera Antigone oder die Stadt together, based on Sophocles' ancient play but meaning their East Germany, which collapsed before the opera could be performed? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:37, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but it's actually very common that operas are based on Greek mythology I very much doubt that this is common knowledge among the average reader. While to you it may be taken for granted, this may not necessary be the case for people who are unfamiliar with opera. If the goal is to educate readers about opera, it might be a better idea to somehow convey that information (that Greek themes is common in opera) as opposed to withholding it. Secondly, ALT5 is very awkwardly written and doesn't flow very well: what do you mean by "but meaning their East Germany, which collapsed..."? It's a bit hard to understand. Did you mean to say that it was conceived in East Germany? Would a wording like below be closer to your intended meaning?
ALT5a ... that while in East Germany, Gerhard Müller and Georg Katzer (pictured) conceived an opera based on Antigone by Sophocles, but it was not performed before German reunification?
I used "German reunification" instead of "collapse" because East Germany didn't exactly "collapse" (it unified with the West), and I used the more common English term "East Germany" instead of GDR for clarity purposes. I still feel that such a hook is cramming too much information, but hopefully it still shows the intended meaning in a clearer manner. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
We have a few more misunderstandings but I think get better overall. I used East Germany in ALT4, no? When I said above "To play with" I meant that ALT4 is far from perfect but has material for a better hook. I want to educate readers more about this opera than opera in general, and mentioned the Greek characters only to show how common it is for operas to be based on them. There are also many plays based on Greek mythology. I like your hook, only feel it's missing the parallel between the dictatorship in ancient Greece and the system in East Germany. Last line: "we pounded at the doors of the mighty ..." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Ritchie told me that you can conceive only babies, so that would also need to change. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
ps: in the sense of the hook, East Germany is a poliical system rather than a geographic feature, and yes, that collapsed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
It's not only babies that can be conceived - ideas, opinions, feelings, projects can be too [1], and that's the sense used here. As for a hook, what about
ALT5b ... that Gerhard Müller and Georg Katzer (pictured) intended their opera Antigone oder die Stadt as comment on the GDR, but it was only performed after the fall of the Berlin Wall?
The article about the opera says that it was based on Antigone, the play by Sophocles, and even if most readers of English Wikipedia don't know who wrote it, they would probably know that Antigone is an ancient Greek drama .... While most may not remember that the GDR was East Germany, they would certainly associate the fall of the Berlin Wall with the end of the East German state and the fall of communism in eastern Europe.RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:11, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
Fine with me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:37, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't really see the issue with just using "East Germany" instead of GDR. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:02, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Narutolovehinata5, it's just that GDR is much shorter than "East Germany", so helps in keeping the hook under 200 characters (although my ALT5b has gone over that now with the italicised title of the opera, so probably won't work). RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:43, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Giving this another shot with a shorter version of the earlier proposed hooks. How about:
It's short and simple, and I understand that: 1. it doesn't mention either Müller or Katzer, and 2. it doesn't convey the fact that the opera was intended as a commentary for East Germany, but it seems difficult to write a hook based on those facts that don't go over the character limit. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:13, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Please make a hook mentioning at least the composer because the article was written as a memorial to him. RIP. The close collaboration of librettist and composer is unusual, and I would love to see that mentioned. "We pounded at the doors of the mighty ..." --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:28, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT6a ... the premiere of Gerhard Müller and Georg Katzer's opera Antigone oder die Stadt was delayed due to the Fall of the Berlin Wall?
Is that better to you? If there's a specific hook fact you want to use instead of that, you can try suggesting a hook and see where we can go from there. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:37, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
It's better but still has two flaw's: we need to say who did what, - could be two composers otherwise, and we need to insert "pictured" which I find awkward after any possessive. - I'd prefer a link to "unification" to one about "fall", always trying to mention the positive. I'd like one to Komische Oper, which has been regarded as "common" between the two even before reunification. - Of the hooks, I still like ALT1 best ;) - reworded with some of the ideas above:
ALT7: ... that librettist Gerhard Müller and composer Georg Katzer (pictured) wrote Antigone oder die Stadt in East Germany, but it premiered at the Komische Oper Berlin only after Germany was united again?
I managed striking a few others, though. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:37, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Good job on ALT7, I really like it. Unfortunately, it's 197 characters so it's just under the character limit and thus could be made shorter. Gerda, as much as I know you want to mention the name of the opera, would it be okay if the hook goes up without the mention of the Berlin Opera, or to shorten it to simply "Berlin"? Because it would be hard to make it shorter otherwise while still conveying the intended hook facts. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
No to the opera, because that name is unique, while Antigone (disambiguation) is long. We have a limit, and don't have to invent a limit below the limit, and no to the opera house because there were two, even in East Berlin. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:21, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
While 200 is an outside limit, hooks slightly under 200 characters may still be rejected at the discretion of the selecting reviewers and administrators. @Yoninah: Are you fine with ALT7 or do you think it should be modified? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:37, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT7a works but why drop "only"; - it was planned for much sooner, and it made no sense when it finally happened. Sriking thhe other because - as mentioned above - it's a tribute on the occasion of the composer's death, and he should be mentioned, and bst also pictured. He was quite a personality who held positions in composers' groups in the united Germany because he was well respected both ends. I expanded his article then, substantially but not 5 times, - this is instead, DYK? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:46, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Gerda Arendt, stick "only" in 7a and I'll be happy to tick it off. Note my minor tweaks to the article and the suggestion in an edit summary; see Creon, for instance. Drmies (talk) 00:23, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT7c: ... that librettist Gerhard Müller and composer Georg Katzer (pictured) wrote Antigone oder die Stadt in East Germany, but it premiered at the Komische Oper Berlin only after reunification? Drmies, is this what you mean? - Creon: I don't think that the link helps at that point, because instead of comparing him to the model by Sophocles, you get all Oedipeus etc. Thoughts? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:48, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
We are done here: ALT7c it is. Drmies (talk) 17:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
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